August 5, 2009
Introduction: Welcome to podcast episode number 54 from www.bengreenfieldfitness.com and today’s podcast episode is going to be a little bit out of the ordinary because we usually have a Listener Q and A, we have special announcements, we have our featured topic and we usually close with some extra information as well but today is going to be simply the featured topic and the main reason for that is that I have just had a host of feedback from last week’s podcast in terms of people wanting to know where they can go to get tested for these 6 key factors that we talked about in podcast number 53. If you listened to that podcast, you’ll remember that I spoke with Dr. Richard Cohen and he basically has a proprietary way for people to test essential amino acid levels, vitamin D, magnesium, calcium, PH, metabolic type and a host of other factors from the comfort of their own home. So what I’m going to do today is tell you exactly who you need to call, what steps you need to take to get that done, and then we’re going to move into our interview with one of the nation’s top experts on magnesium, author of the The Magnesium Miracle and just a wealth of information on health and performance. But before I do that, the moment you’ve all been waiting for, here is what you need to do to get your home test kit for the 6 key performance factors. Ok, so get out your pen, you’re going to want to write this down because this is not available to the general public, I’m not putting it in the Shownotes to the podcast. This is the only place you’re going to get it, if you’re listening to this podcast. But Dr. Cohen has given me the number that you actually need to call in order to get hooked up with this kit. Ready? Ok, here it is. 8883711033. And what he said you need to do is just call and tell them that you heard about the kit over at the Ben Greenfield Fitness.com podcast and he will hook you up with everything you need. And again, this is not really available to the general public right now. This is just something that Dr. Cohen is going to be able to hook you up with. So that’s 8883711033. I literally just this week got done testing my body for everything. It took me about 48 hours, very smooth process, everything was prepaid postage. When it arrived in a kit at my house, I just took care of the samples and dropped them off at UPS and USPS and off they went. So give Dr. Cohen a call and if you don’t know what I’m talking about, listen to podcast episode number 53. So in today’s featured topic, we’re going to hear from somebody who literally is today’s doctor of the future. She’s the author of a book The Magnesium Miracle and I’ll put a link to that in the Shownotes. But she’s authored 16 books including The Yeast Connection In Women’s Health and Irritable Bowel Syndrome For Dummies. She’s been on TV regularly, all over – ABC, NBC, CBS. She’s medical director for the Nutritional Magnesium Association. And during this interview we’re going to talk about some very interesting topics in the field of magnesium and health. Now you’re going to hear us throwing around a lot of terms about tests, about different types of supplements that are out there, about videos you can go watch to learn about magnesium, calcium balances. I’m going to put a link to everything in the Shownotes. So you can just surf on over to www.bengreenfieldfitness.com and click on podcast episode 54 and you’ll see the link for everything in there. Let’s go ahead and move on to this week’s featured topic.
Podcast listeners, this is Ben Greenfield and I have on the other line today a woman who has been called the doctor of the future. She’s not just a medical doctor, but she’s a naturopath, she’s a herbalist, she’s an acupuncturist, she’s the author of 16 books. She wrote a book called The Yeast Connection In Women’s Health. Another one called IBS for Dummies. That’s Irritable Bowel Syndrome For Dummies. And the book that we’re going to talk about today at least the focus of the book is The Magnesium Miracle. And in The Magnesium Miracle, Dr. Dean talks about some of the missing links to completely optimizing your health. If you haven’t heard some of the other interviews that have appeared on this show about magnesium, I would highly encourage you to go back and listen to those. Take the information that you find today and apply it into your own health and your own life. You’re going to notice some results but Dr. Dean is actually the medical director for the Nutritional Magnesium Association. You can find out more about that at www.nutritionalmagnesium.com and if you happen to be in front of your computer as you listen in today, you can surf over to Dr. Dean’s website at www.drcarolyndean.com. Dr. Dean, welcome to the show.
Dr. Carolyn Dean: Thank you very much Ben and let me just clarify it’s www.nutritionalmagnesium.org. We’re a foundation and an organization and we disseminate information about magnesium to the public so we’re a .org.
Ben: We’ll make sure that the correct URL appears in the Shownotes to this podcast. Now I noticed that you’re an MD, a medical doctor, but you have a lot of other titles as well. You’re a naturopath, herbalist, acupuncturist – where did you get started? How did you come into this position that you’re in today?
Dr. Carolyn Dean: I was interested in nutrition in my teens so I kept running around telling people to eat right and exercise but no one would listen to me so when I was in honors biology I decided to go into medicine. When all the young kids around me were getting into medicine school, I thought well I can do better than that. So I went into medicine and at the end of medicine I did my naturopathic training and picked up acupuncture and herbalism along the way.
Ben: Now where did you study naturopathy?
Dr. Carolyn Dean: In Toronto, it was then the Ontario School of Naturopathic Medicine. Now it’s the Canadian College of Naturopathic Medicine.
Ben: And then you went on to medical school after that?
Dr. Carolyn Dean: I did medicine first.
Ben: Oh right, you got your MD first and then you went on and got the ND afterwards.
Dr. Carolyn Dean: Yes, because I was interested in natural medicine and I just wanted to make sure I covered all the basics. Because in medical school, they tried to talk us out of doing anything natural. It was looked upon as being quackish and still is unfortunately. We didn’t learn anything about nutrition in medicine.
Ben: So along the way you’ve obviously learned quite a bit and it seems the books that you’ve authored really span the gamut but what inspired you to write The Magnesium Miracle?
Dr. Carolyn Dean: What happened is I was meeting with a publisher about Chinese medicine diet book and we said oh we just signed on a title but would you write something on magnesium. And apparently the editor, she’d had some severe back pain and also some migraines and someone told her to take magnesium and it cured her. So she thought it would be a worthy title. So I just dove into the research thinking how… maybe I can write a pamphlet. How can I get a 250 page book out of magnesium and I was pretty stunned. The doctors that wrote the foreword for my book – Burton and Bella Altura – they alone had done a thousand studies on magnesium and the importance of it so there was a wealth of information. It turned out to be a fabulous book and it’s been helping thousands and thousands of people.
Ben: Now when you were studying for this book or when you were researching this book – were you… this is something you hear about medical students a lot… they’ll study a certain phenomenon and find that they realize that they’ve been experiencing those same symptoms themselves. Did you personally find that when you were writing this book, you realized that you yourself needed magnesium or could be deficient in magnesium?
Dr. Carolyn Dean: Absolutely. What you’re talking about first is called medical student’s disease. Every time we studied a new organ or a new system… oh my gosh, I’ve got all of that. I certainly had magnesium deficiency symptoms. My heart would skip and palpitate a little bit. I’d get incredible leg muscle cramps lying in bed at night. If I stretched my leg I’d get this humongous charley horse and energy levels, a little bit insomnia. You go down the list so even though I was on a multiple with magnesium already because I understood that I needed more vitamins and minerals, I took extra magnesium and one thing that happened when I moved to Maui last June – I started exercising more. You just walk more. I do an hour and a half back and forth to the beach and swim for 35, 45 minutes and I was beginning to get cramping in the water when I’d really go all out trying to follow a turtle. And I had to double my magnesium because my exercise… I was sweating it out and I really needed to put it back in my body.
Ben: And you’re what we would probably consider a healthy individual. A physician.
Dr. Carolyn Dean: Well most physicians are not healthy. I’m actually an exception.
Ben: This is true.
Dr. Carolyn Dean: Get that straight.
Ben: But we do get a lot of people who listen in who are active individuals, people who eat healthy, people who exercise frequently. Some people are even Ironman triathletes. They’re taking care of their bodies in as much as doing an Ironman triathlon is taking care of your body, but should they even really care about magnesium in your opinion?
Dr. Carolyn Dean: Absolutely. Because when I think of athletes, I think sweat. The sweat pouring and dripping off your body. And when I looked up what’s in sweat and what is coming out – you lick your skin and it tastes salty. So we assume, ok. There’s sodium coming out but if you look up anywhere, the research is all done. In your sweat there’s sodium, there’s potassium, calcium, magnesium and any other trace elements that are in your body that can be excreted… your saline in your blood. The liquidy white watery part of blood. That has all the minerals and elements that your body needs to work and you’re losing bits of that. However what happens when you look at something for mineral replacement – the Gatorades, etc. – what have they got? They’ve got water, sugar, table salt and the electrolytes that they put back in are just sodium, potassium and chloride. And the high fructose corn syrup is higher than your sodium and potassium. So what happens is if you’re just replacing sugars and sodium and a bit of potassium, you’re not replacing your magnesium and setting yourself up for the muscle spasms that occur when you’ve got too little magnesium. What happens in most people is we’ve got too much calcium compared to magnesium in our diet so we tend to get overloaded with calcium and calcium tightens up muscles and cells and too little magnesium which we need to relax cells – I’d like to send your listeners to a website www.nutritionalmagnesium.org and there’s an excellent video there. It’s just a two minute video on the workings of magnesium and calcium at the cellular level and it’s fascinating because even at the cellular level, the way the cell allows calcium and magnesium in and out is dependent on magnesium. If you don’t have enough magnesium, the cell will maintain a rigid opening that allows as much calcium in as much as you can jam in there which sets the cell off into a spasm. If you have enough calcium, that cell channel closes down properly, opens and closes as you need tiny bits of calcium to do a nerve function or a muscle function. So there’s a physiology of what’s actually happening with calcium and magnesium. And your body doesn’t work properly at the cell level or at the muscle level or actually at the tissue level of any organ without the proper amounts of magnesium.
Ben: I think it’s interesting. You come across ultra endurance athletes who have had heart problems, died of heart attacks or had severe heart issues and it seems as though the issue of magnesium deficiency is not something that comes up in the media all that much. But I can just say from personal experience, when I’ve gone for a long 2, 2 and a half, up to 3 hour run and come back and sat in the living room, you don’t feel right. And a lot of times, it is even at the level of feeling like your heart is not beating correctly. And I’ve spoken to a lot of athletes that feel that when they’ve depleted their bodies even when they’re doing things like drinking Gatorade or salting their food.
Dr. Carolyn Dean: Yes. It’s wonderful to hear your personal experience because I can relate to it both personally and with the research I’ve done. In The Magnesium Miracle book, chapter four, I have a whole chapter or section on magnesium and exercise and I say the three things you need to know about magnesium and exercise is magnesium reduces lactic acid which causes post-exercise pain. Magnesium is lost during exercise and magnesium deficiency may cause sudden cardiac death in healthy athletes. And what happens… if you go to this www.nutritionalmagnesium.org website and see that video, it’ll just become crystal clear what’s going on with your cells and when you sit down after heavy exercise and your heart is kind of shaking a little almost. Instead of the regular beating, there’s shaking going on – well that’s the section or percentage of your heart muscles that just aren’t getting the right amounts of calcium and magnesium and they’re shivering in their action instead of giving a forceful contraction. And that’s what people feel throughout their bodies. I have athletes who’ve depleted themselves over the years and then they get a really stressful incident and then they turn into people who are anxiety prone. They have panic attacks, they can’t drive their car anymore. They can’t cross bridges. And it’s just devastating because these are super athletes and their confidence is shattered where sometimes they become agoraphobic and they can’t even leave their homes. Well all of that can be a magnesium deficiency. Because when you’re low in magnesium, your adrenal glands aren’t working properly. Every… your hormones are out of balance, it’s a lot of information to throw into one interview. But there’s a list of about 22 different conditions that are scientifically proven to be caused by magnesium deficiency or made worse by magnesium deficiency and it starts with anxiety and panic attacks. And then there’s asthma, blood clots, constipation, bladder spasms, depression, diabetes, fatigue, heart disease, hypertension, hypoglycemia, insomnia, kidney stones… kidney stones are huge in terms of magnesium deficiency. Then there’s migraines, any sort of muscular-skeletal condition. This fibrocytis and fibromyalgia, muscle spasms, eye twitches, cramps and chronic neck and back pain, any sort of nerve problem. Premenstrual syndrome in women, it’s huge. The painful cramping, infertility, problems with labor and delivery. Then there’s osteoporosis, Reynaud’s syndrome, sudden death infant death syndrome, tooth decay and toxicity. So, it covers the gamut.
Ben: You know, you’d think that people would have discovered by now over the past thousands of years of nutritional studies that these types of health problems are associated with a magnesium deficiency. From what I’ve heard from other people that we’ve had on the show, a big part of it is that our food is no longer giving us the amounts of magnesium that we used to get from it. Is this true?
Dr. Carolyn Dean: That’s part one of the equation. 100 years ago we received in an average diet about 500 mgs of magnesium. Now, we’re lucky to get 150 mgs even if the food is organic because it depends entirely on whether or not the fertilizers contain magnesium. Yes, the second part of the equation of why magnesium isn’t recognized is that in medicine, people will just test magnesium in the blood and only 1% of the magnesium in the whole body is in the blood. 1%. And that amount is guarded very closely by the body’s physiology and feedback mechanisms because it has to keep the heart going properly. So that level will pretty much always be normal except if (unintelligible) magnesium deficiency. Doctors have run a lot of magnesium blood tests and they say well it’s usually normal so why bother testing? And the red blood cell test is what you want. In the red blood cells, actually at the cell level, there’s more like 40% of the magnesium in the body. So it’s a better test to do to check your levels. But because it’s so hard to get the proper blood testing, there’s two things that I tell people to do. One is that that there’s an EXA test and there’s a website www.exatest.com and they do a scraping under the tongue of some of your skin cells and a chiropractor or a naturopath will usually do this test, send it off to the lab and they’ll look at it under an electron microscope and tell you what your mineral levels are. And the second thing is people will get my book The Magnesium Miracle, and I have a section about who is deficient. And I found 100 factors that relate to someone’s need for magnesium. We went over the conditions that if people are taking more than 7 drinks of alcohol they can be diminishing their magnesium. Or if they have any sort of arrhythmia of the heart or heart pain, if they get angry a lot, that can be a magnesium deficiency sign. So it’s the symptoms that you have, you can go through this list and check them off and if it seems you have a dozen or more, then magnesium may be something you could try. Because it’s so safe, I can feel pretty secure in telling people to give it a clinical trial.
Ben: Right, and even if you’re not experiencing health problems, what I found in my use of it is… you talked a little bit about muscle soreness and a little bit about insomnia. I’ve been using a transdermal magnesium in areas of muscle soreness and I’ve found that there’s a significant decrease after the following day after a workout when I use magnesium on a sore muscle – you had talked about lactic acid being one of the things that can contribute to muscle soreness. I’ve also seen research that indicates that that can be related to calcium leakage and its seems as though there’s a possibility based off the explanation that you gave for the heart, that magnesium may actually be limiting the amount of calcium leakage that occurs in the muscle. That’s one thing I noticed. The other thing, you mentioned insomnia. My wife and I have used it before as almost like a massage oil and slept incredibly better after utilizing the magnesium. Neither of us have insomnia but there’s a difference between sleeping for 7 hours and waking up a couple of times during the night and sleeping for 8 hours solid and waking up completely refreshed. So, I think even for the healthy people – the people who think they’re healthy listening in to the show, the quality of life could still be improved. I did have a quick question for you about the testing. You said that red blood cell was one way to do it. This EXA test that you mentioned was another. I’ve seen a test… a hair mineral analysis test, would this actually test people’s magnesium levels accurately?
Dr. Carolyn Dean: Well I studied hair testing in my naturopathic training and there’s so many factors in what happens in the hair. Like it can be high in the hair because you’re excreting too much of a mineral or it can be low in the hair because you’re utilizing it properly. So except for poisons and toxins like heavy metals, I try to stay away from hair analysis. I know that some people are very adept in reading them, but I don’t think it’s the best way to check on calcium and magnesium levels. You have to get a hair growing for a couple of months before you know what happens. So you’re always looking at a rear view mirror of your mineral status.
Ben: Interesting. Now let’s say someone tests their magnesium levels or they perhaps suspect that they are deficient. How can they ensure that they actually begin consuming adequate magnesium or begin getting adequate magnesium. What options are out there for people?
Dr. Carolyn Dean: Well you mentioned the transdermal and I got into that after writing the IBS for Dummies book because there are people with IBS diarrhea that can’t take any oral magnesium or don’t think they can take it because it causes a laxative effect. And actually that’s one of the bonuses of magnesium — is if you get an overload, you just lose it in your stool and some of it comes out in your urine too. So it’s very difficult to get an overload of magnesium. Someone who can get an overload of magnesium is someone on kidney dialysis and what I do there is switch them over to an angstrom magnesium. There’s a company called Complete H20 Minerals and they’ve made minerals including magnesium into a size between a picometer and a nanometer that is accepted entirely into the cell. And what we know from physicists in very recent research is that the cell mineral ion channel that allows minerals in and out of the cells is between 4 and 5 angstroms in diameter. So, the minerals that get into cells have to be at the angstrom size. When you take a pill from a drug store – a magnesium pill from a drug store or even a health food store – I call those dirt minerals. They’re not angstrom sized. Plants, for example. They won’t absorb minerals into their tiny, tiny rootlets until they’re the angstrom size. So that’s why there’s a lot of talk of using plant based minerals and vitamins as well because they’re in the form that our bodies will accept. So we’ve got oral, powders, magnesium citrate. They come most often in flavored form that you mix in warm or hot water and drink it as a tea and that helps the absorption. You’ve got the transdermal that you can use. You can use two of them. I actually use all three forms because I have a situation with my body where I get the laxative effect too quickly. In order to get the amount I need, it’s gone before I know it. So I use the transdermal on my skin. I use some magnesium citrate when I need a little bit of a laxative effect. And I use mostly the angstrom magnesium. I also use calcium. They have vials of magnesium calcium boron. When I’m working out a lot, I use their sports blend which is the primo electrolyte replacement. It comes in a little ampoule. A little plastic ampoule and you snap it off and you can squirt it under your tongue as you’re doing a sport. We’re using this on athletes who recover so much better when they take this form of electrolyte replacement.
Ben: So just so I know, do you have any financial relationship with the H20 Minerals Company?
Dr. Carolyn Dean: No.
Ben: Listening to what you’re saying I have a scenario that I’m thinking about for the endurance athletes that listen in, they could feasibly… and tell me if I’m wrong here, use something like a magnesium salt or a transdermal magnesium the day before the race to prime their body so to speak and then use a magnesium oil prior to the race and then take these angstrom minerals in a small bottle as you described and actually use them during competition to maintain optimum magnesium levels and this would actually be an ergogenic aid, so to speak.
Dr. Carolyn Dean: Absolutely. Why I got interested in the Complete H20 Minerals is having traveled to a couple of the Codex meetings in Europe. Codex is World Health Organization, World Trade Organization, that’s trying to standardize food and dietary supplements. And what they seem to be doing is getting us all to buy drugstore brand synthetic supplements of very low potency. So I thought boy, I have to find some vitamins and minerals that are low potency and 100% absorbed so that we can go under the radar of this limitation on the amount of vitamins and minerals you can take. Because if you can as a company only ship a product that has 100 mgs of magnesium per tablet, if someone needs 1000 mgs of magnesium – the ones in the drug stores and health food stores – if you need 10 of those a day, then that becomes a real financial burden etc. etc. So with something like the angstrom minerals, the dosage is in… the concentrate that I do is 72 mgs. And yet for me, that is about 700 mgs in the dirt magnesium form.
Ben: Interesting. There are a lot of capsules out on the market. Salt capsules that actually have magnesium in them and I’m just wondering, you said that it’s about 75 mgs? That you were taking in?
Dr. Carolyn Dean: Yes, 72 mgs in one dose and I might do that twice a day. It gets a little bit complicated. I do go into it in detail in my book but when you get something like a magnesium citrate, then it’s not all magnesium. Part of it is citrate, and maybe only 20, 25% is the magnesium. The rest is the binder. And then of that amount, once that breaks down in the body, maybe only 15% is absorbed. You get one of the common magnesiums which is magnesium oxide – which is the magnesium that most of the magnesium research is being done on – and come to find out that magnesium oxide is only 4% absorbed.
Ben: Wow. And so…
Dr. Carolyn Dean: We don’t know Ben if that’s in the cell level or if that’s just in the blood because they’re usually just doing blood tests.
Ben: So one of the best things for people to do would probably incorporate some of the magnesium sources that you recommended and then just tolerate the effect on their body. Obviously as you said there’s a little bit of a laxative effect when you take in too much, but if people are figuring that out prior to actually going out and using it in competition, then they’ll have that determined.
Dr. Carolyn Dean: Exactly, yes. You don’t want the laxative effect in competition, no. But that’s where the angstrom magnesium comes into play definitely and it’s very useful and there are food sources as well…
Ben: Well that’s what I was going to ask you. I was going to ask you if somebody wants to go to the grocery store and they want to stock up on the foods that are actually going to give them sources of magnesium – I know we talked about the problem with modern agricultural practices, but what is going to give people the most bang for their buck?
Dr. Carolyn Dean: Yes, I was going to mention I do a blog and my website www.drcarolyndean.com and I give recipes and one of the most favorite recipes is a nut pate. And that consists of macadamia nuts, lemon juice, garlic and sea salt and you just mix that up in a high speed blender and nuts and seeds have the highest amounts of magnesium. Garlic has a fair bit as well. And you put that on a collar leaf and a few other vegetables and some avocado and deep green leafy vegetables are very high in magnesium. And then for desert, you mix up 100% cacao, coconut milk, and frozen bananas. Cut up the bananas. Put all three… the cacao, coconut milk and the bananas in a high speed blender and you’ve got an incredibly delicious chocolate desert that people mistake for the real thing.
Ben: Wow that actually sounds pretty good.
Dr. Carolyn Dean: Yes, I’m sorry… and the reason why that’s very beneficial is we know bananas are high in potassium. They have lots of magnesium as well but chocolate is one of the highest magnesium rich foods and when I have clients telling me that they’re craving chocolate, I say well then really you’re craving magnesium.
Ben: Interesting. Interesting. So you talked about the www.nutritionalmagnesium.org. You’ve mentioned that a couple of times during the interview. What is the Nutritional Magnesium – well I visited the website and it says the Nutritional Magnesium Association. What is that?
Dr. Carolyn Dean: It’s an organization that our director Boris Levitsky began. He’s a long distance bicycle competitor and he came across magnesium out of the need of his body developing magnesium deficiency symptoms. So, over time he decided that he wanted to educate the public more about magnesium because unfortunately, it’s not in the media. You mentioned several times how well gosh, no one’s never really heard of this. It’s not a drug, it can’t be patented. So it doesn’t get a lot of press. And that’s why I love to do interviews like this. On my blog, just about every second post is someone asking about magnesium and I’ve incorporated a lot of that information into a 48 week health program called Future Health Now because I want people to get back to the basics. If someone has all these symptoms that we’re talking about here with magnesium deficiency – tremor in their hands, wheezing, feeling that they… in women, the PMS and cramping during their period. Any sort of muscle cramps. You have all those symptoms. You go to your doctor and if you have more than five symptoms they think you’re depressed and put you on an antidepressant. All these symptoms. If you go and say all of a sudden, you’re having anxiety attacks, instead of thinking of a mineral deficiency, you’ll be put on valium or Xanax or something. So, it’s really important for people to be educated about the basics. And unfortunately media is going toward what I call the celebrity supplements. All you hear now is resviratrol. The nutrient from grape skins and I’m sure within a year people are going to be putting out studies saying resviratrol is unsafe and people are dying from it. Well what can happen is you can get companies starting to make resviratrol from grapes that aren’t organic and have a lot of pesticides, concentrate the pesticides and you’re taking it and you’re going to get sick. So there’s this incredible commercialization of the natural products industry that takes us away from the basics and to me magnesium, because it works with over 325 different enzyme systems in the body which is the highest of any mineral, to me magnesium is the basic supplement. If people can start taking that, then they’ll feel better and want to do more for their health.
Ben: Wow. Well Dr. Dean, I’m going to put a link in the Shownotes to your website and also to this www.nutritionalmagnesium.org where that 2 minute video is and I think that would be really helpful for especially athletes to see what’s going on in their hearts. I’ll put a link to the EXA test that you mentioned, the Complete H20 Minerals angstrom sized magnesium and all those resources will be available to the audience but I would say most importantly and I’ve started to read it, but pick up a copy of The Magnesium Miracle if you’re listening in today. I’ll put a link to that in the Shownotes to the podcast. This would be a book that is worth the read. I only read about one book a month or so, and this is one that I’m starting into this month and so far it is a fantastic book, and it’ll really open your eyes. So Dr. Dean, I’d like to thank you for coming on the show today.
Dr. Carolyn Dean: You’re welcome Ben. It’s been fun. As I said I enjoy getting this information out there and athletes really need to think about taking in more magnesium.
Ben: Hearing this over and over again from top physicians in America and around the world has convinced me 100% to include it in my training and my health protocol and I hope that those of you listening in are convinced in the same way to take care of your body. So, Dr. Carolyn Dean. Thank you for coming on the show. We appreciate having you. Thank you for your time and have a wonderful week.
Dr. Carolyn Dean: Thank you Ben.
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