[Transcript] – The Latest Longevity Drugs, The Best Way To Exercise For Your Mitochondria, Fasting For Men Vs. Women & Much More With Dr. Chris Shade.

Affiliate Disclosure


For podcast: https://bengreenfieldfitness.com/podcast/chris-shade-podcast/  

[00:00:00] Introduction

[00:01:11] Podcast Sponsors

[00:04:03] Guest Introduction

[00:05:53] A Scintillating Update On The Condition Of Ben's Left Knee

[00:16:10] Targeted senamorphic drives throughout the year as a hormetic trigger

[00:30:08] Podcast Sponsors

[00:33:48] How To Use Hydrogen Around Exercise

[00:37:51] Biohacks For The Average Human

[00:49:27] Gender Differences With Fasting And A Ketogenic Diet

[00:59:51] The breakfast protocol Ben is currently experimenting with

[01:03:51} Closing the Podcast

[01:06:06] Legal Disclaimer

Ben:  On this episode of the Ben Greenfield Fitness Podcast.

For most healthy people, it doesn't matter that much if you have a tablespoon of butter in your morning coffee versus not.

Chris:  We used to have uricase. And, we were fruit livers and stuff. And then, we ran out of fruit. The ones who lived through that were the ones who had mutation that didn't have uricase. There's all these feedback loops that keep you into AMP-D.

Ben:  And, I mean if there's anything that people get out of this whole podcast, it's probably take out fencing.

Health, performance, nutrition, longevity, ancestral living, biohacking and much more. My name is Ben Greenfield. Welcome to the show.

Hey. So, this is a fun episode with my buddy Chris Shade. He interviewed me. I interviewed him. Geez, I don't know which way we were going, but this is what it sounds like when two geeky guys nerd out. I was on a walk during this show and he interviewed me while I was on a walk. And, I had a blast on this episode. So, I think you're really, really going to dig it.

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Chris:  Welcome to Shades of Health Podcast and I'm here with the one and only, Ben Greenfield. Now, we don't see Ben, we have this placeholder of him. He looks very much like Chris Hemsworth, but kind of looks like that anyway.

Ben:  Use Thor, please. Use Thor if anything in placeholder.

Chris:  Yes. Thor. He's walking through an ice field now. And so, we can relate it to that in some way. But yeah, we're going to join Ben today and we're going to talk about a couple of things. One of the things is good long-term biohacks. There's so many things you can jump into really and have all kinds of tech and stuff, but what can we incorporate long-term into our life and get the most out of? And so, we'll talk about that. And then, I want to talk about women and biohacks. For women–

Ben:  I like that.

Chris:  Yeah. I mean, one, we love women and we love talking about women.

Ben:  Yeah.

Chris:  But, they have very different responses to a lot of the things that we do like fasting, intermittent fasting, keto. And so, we've been around this for a long time.

Ben:  Everybody's noticing how sexist Chris is being right now.

Chris:  Yes. Yes, please notice that. And so, we'll talk about biohacks for women, high fat for women, anything around hormones for women, and then a little bit of AMP-K versus AMP-D shifting, this sort of [00:05:29] _____ got me on this obsession with uric acid and how–

Ben:  Oh, geez.

Chris:  Yeah. And, how you can get stuck into these certain pathways that are just pulling you down away from AMP-K all the time. They're all survival pathways and they include endogenous production of fructose even if you stay away from high fructose, corn syrup, you can make it yourself.

Ben:  Yeah.

Chris:  So, with that, let's start with the first one there. In fact, let's start first by talking about how you're doing. How's your knee?

Ben:  Well, I mean first of all, I feel a great deal of pressure now knowing everything that we're going to talk about for the next 10 years. But hopefully, we can cover all that. My knee, well, our mutual friend Dr. Matt Cook stuck a bunch of needles into it. He did what's called an intraosseous needling protocol where he took all the cartilage of worn down over 20 years of being an idiot doing Ironman Triathlons and all that stuff. And then, he fills all those little plugged-up holes with bone marrow and it regrows the cartilage. And, it's pretty cool. And, I went in for a follow-up MRI. And, lo and behold, all that cartilage that you'd normally have to get a knee replacement to fix on that lateral side is all fixed up. But, that whole idea where when you're holding a bunch of putty and you squeeze it in your fists and a little bit pops out one, crack. So, you're showing that one cracker pops out the other. So now, I've got medial knee pain probably because I started using my knee differently. So, I'm sorting through some after-effects I didn't anticipate. But ultimately, yeah, regenerative medicine is so cool. I love this idea that we can now in a very minimally enhance in this manner go in and do something regrow cartilage with a little bit of Osseo needling and plugging it up with some bone marrow silly putty.

Chris:  Yeah.

Ben:  Yeah.

Chris:  Did he have the ultrasound on and he was going in to where the stuff was?

Ben:  Yeah.

Chris:  And, was he dissolving any and sucking it out? Or, was he just breaking it up?

Ben:  Yeah, ultrasound-guided imaging. I've always had that protocol done. It's pretty cool. You don't even need to ask these you can just see your whole joint image right there on the screen, and it's really not that uncomfortable at all. He did a little bit of a drainage of fluid. Everybody who's got pain. A lot of times that pain is due to fluids sloshing around and putting pressure on nerves. So, I did a little bit of that and then did the whole patching up protocol.

Chris:  Right.

Ben:  So, the other really cool thing for joints right now is this idea of taking a joint and moving it through full range of motion in almost a shearing manner. And so, you'll see now a guy I actually just interviewed on my podcast, Ben Patrick known as the “Knees Over Toes Guy,” all this stuff's very counterintuitive, you squat with your knees in front of your toes, you do kind of like ass-to-grass split squat lunges with your knees over your toes, and you load your knee in a shearing fashion counterintuitive and contraindicatory to what most physical therapists and orthopedic surgeons will tell you. But, gosh, I met him and started doing his program within two weeks of doing it on a regular basis. My knee pain is kind of melting away, so it's interesting too how a lot of physical therapy modalities were still figuring out this whole thing. I don't know. It wouldn't surprise me these days if we found a new organ we didn't know existed right next to the liver or something. It's like, “Why are we trying to get to Mars right now? Can we just make sure we know everything in our bodies first?”

Chris:  No doubt. I just got back from Mede in Columbia where we're doing stem cells, and I'd gone down there two years. And, this is years ago, and this experience was totally different because of the guy that we're working with, Dr. Gonzalez, and he believed in recreating the injury before putting the stems in there, and he would do it with oxidative therapy. So, we did ozone first, we did UV light, six pass UVA/UVC light. And then, in certain joints, you do ozone right into the joint.

Now, this time when we did it versus other times I've done it, the amount of inflammation and pain that came the next day into the areas that had been damaged the worst in the past was insane.

Ben:  Yeah.

Chris:  It totally redid the injury. So, did you have any of those experiences when Matt did your knee or when you were doing the other stuff?

Ben:  Yeah. That paracrine signaling effect can be shocking in terms of reinitiating of a healing response and almost in a way that harkens very similar to almost like a humoral immune response. You see the body all of a sudden remembering and coming back and reinitiating inflammation in a very surprising manner freaks a lot of people actually. I got stem cells and it made me even worse.

Chris:  Yeah, totally.

Ben:  And, the fact is it does temporarily. And, the idea of reinitiating the injury and then managing it properly in the same way that if you've been injured, been an idiot say sprained your ankle playing tennis, and just continue to play tennis, you got all the scar tissue laid down in almost a cross-linked and adhesed manner dictating that using say a grass and scraping tool, or ultrasound, or a deep tissue massage work, you can go back in and break up that scar tissue. When you do, you get pain, you get redness, you get inflammation, you get swelling because you're reinitiating the healing response. But now, hey, this is cool, you're in a situation now where you can go about healing that injury the way you should have probably done it in the first place if you weren't being a shithead. And now, that you spent $20,000 on stem cells, you're invested and you're ready to go about doing it the right way.

Chris:  Absolutely. And, they wanted you not taking any anti-inflammatories before and trying not to take them after. Now, in the heat of that insane re-inflammation, you need to do a little bit of management. And so, since then, I've been trying to manage without so much anti-inflammatory. And, that's causing fog and stuff, and fuzziness, and you're like, “Alright, I just got to let enough of this through to keep this healing response going.”

Ben:  Yeah. You could either just quit being a little bitch or you could use instead of an anti-inflammatory, an opioid bind or something like that. Because a lot of times, people who are in pain due to an injury, yeah, sometimes for the injury to heal, or for like satellite cell proliferation, or mitochondrial biogenesis, you don't want to quell the inflammation, but you can use things that don't quell inflammation. That would include everything from a nerve block to an opioid mimicker like kratom or something like that. And, those aren't going to really interfere with the inflammatory pathways too much.

Chris:  Right. When this first lit up, I was like, “Oh, my god.” And then, it calmed down a little bit and they were going to get me an oxycontin prescription. And, it was like, “Yeah, don't do the anti-inflammatories, just do an opioid.” And so, the window for that stopped. But, there, that's what they're going to do in the future there. And, it was amazing doing this oxidative therapy before that really just so heightened that reinitiation of that injury and that rebuilding of that. And so, I think it'll be great as we go forward in regenerative medicine just getting people used to the idea, the expectation that this stuff's going to wind up and that's going to be part of the fixing. And then, also I think we have to get a much more sophisticated understanding or analytical platform for cytokines so that we can differentiate the healing inflammation from that grinding senescent cell NF kappa beta type of inflammation.

Ben:  Right, right. You mean a way to be able to differentiate between the flavor of cytokine that might be responsible for the inflammatory response versus a cytokine that might be more involved in nociception or increased pain, or something like that?

Chris:  Yeah, yeah. I mean, because there's good ones but then you look at senescent cells, what are they doing? They're this constant pro-inflammatory signal that's a negative pro-inflammatory signal and free radicals and stuff. So, how do we see them versus the regenerative inflammation?

Ben:  Yeah. And, that's something I've thought about too because there kind of this concept that some amount of what I suppose you'd call like a senamorphicity could be advantageous early in life for growth responses, for growth hormone, for all those things that we might want to quell, very similar to modulating, the mTOR pathway later on in life. And so, it's this idea that maybe there are a bunch of, whatever, like 20-year-old people keen on biohacking and supplementation out there taking a bunch of anti-senescent compounds that maybe don't need to be at that age. Does that make sense?

Chris:  Yeah, totally. Yeah. If it's a break to the whole thing, an excessive growth has its problems. Maybe there's times when you need that.

The interesting thing, as I was starting to get into senescence, I realized there's this because you're like, “Well, why the fuck did they do that?” Why are the mitochondria sending out these signals? And now, I'm like, “Oh, there's acute and chronic senescence.” And, acutes in essence is like you were having that when you were having your knee worked on, when I was having my foot worked on. When all the damages were in one place, they're sending out signals for the immune cells to come in and eat the bad tissue. But when they're distributed all through in small places as age-driven senescent cells, there's not enough of a course or a signal for the immune system to find them. And so, they're sort of propagating diffusely. So, there is appropriate senescence and inappropriate senescence.

Ben:  Would there be a way that one could, let's say you wanted to, early on in life especially, have certain times of the year very similar to how you might do a fast or a targeted autophagy drive at certain points during the year, a targeted senamorphic drive at certain points during the year? Let's say, you actually wanted to amplify senescent signaling as almost like a hormetic trigger, would you see any benefit in doing so? And if so, would there be certain compounds that you could use to drive senescence and pulse it, let's say, once a year early in life as kind of a hormetic trigger?

Chris:  That's a great thought. And then, we got to think what are the things that really drive that. But generally, things that are driving senescence are toxins and mitochondrial damage. And–

Ben:  So, you can just have cheeseburger a week.

Chris:  Yeah, yeah.

Ben:  Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Chris:  It could be an acute sunburn, does it?

Ben:  Yeah, interesting.

Chris:  Yeah. Well, how do you think about that? Well, that's–

Ben:  No, I'm going to look more into that. It's an interesting thought.

Chris:  Yeah. And then, our ability to even measure this stuff is all kind of crazy. Senescent compounds, they're coming out of senescent cells, but then if you go and you break a whole bunch of them, you get a massive rise in the senescent levels in the cells. In fact, we were doing some pilot studies and we had people on this AMP-K charge, this strong quercetin and berberine and resveratrol, and they're all senolytics of some order. And so, you're measuring that beta-galactosidase as a measure of how much totals senescent cell you have. And, this stuff shoots up through the roof as you start exploding all of these cells. And so, we got to learn how to use these markers. And, there's a lot of stuff that's really in its infancy. But, I really look forward to figuring out how to do this stuff the best.

Ben:  Yeah, that's interesting. Related to that effect on AMP-K, earlier you were talking about David Perlmutter and his thoughts about the AMP-K to AMP-D conversion in response to. I think, from what I understand about David is that he's concerned about high purine intake or fructose intake as precursor. So uric acid formation causing basically like an increase in AMP-D formation, which can result in long-term cognitive decline inflammation, poor gut health, et cetera. And then, of course, the idea would be, well, decrease your uric acid intake by eating a low-purine diet, limiting your fish consumption or organic consumption.

Chris:  Yeah. That is such a tiny part of the whole thing. And, it's because the purines go right into uric acid. Uric acid then is an AMP-K inhibitor keeping into AMP-D. So, for people listening, when your energy runs low, you have two ways to go. AMP-K mobilizes energy, glycogen increases glucose stores. And, that's what puts you into ketosis and mobilizes your fat energy. And, that's associated with longevity and being trim, mTOR blocking, the catabolism. But, AMP-D is the other way you can go when the ATP goes low. And, that is associated with lowering ATP in the cells and stimulating uric acid production, and stimulating fat accumulation, and stimulating pro-inflammatory stuff. And, that's associated with the obesity, it's all the opposite–

Ben:  Which, by the way, I don't want to derail you, but that would be great in a time of famine, or starvation, or low food availability. I mean, humans are one of the mammals who have low levels of uric A's enzyme production, which probably served us well at a certain point being able to convert to AMP-D so we could store away fats for times of need, but it's just not serving us well now in a state of caloric hyper-availability.

Chris:  Yeah. And, it happened. I just got a paper they were looking back. And, it happened during an ice age. We used to have uricase. And, we were fruit livers and stuff. And then, we ran out of fruit. The ones who lived through that were the ones who had mutation that didn't have the uricase. And then, when you look into it, there's all these feedback loops that keep you into AMP-D. And so, uric acid is one of them, but there's a number of them. And, there's a number of pathways by which you endogenously make fructose and especially in the brain. And so, when you have high peaks of glucose from high glycemic food, even if there's no fructose in it, you saturate your normal glucose metabolism and you shunt a bunch into fructose. But now, here is the one as I'm looking that was like, “Damn.” So, high salt does it and alcohol does it all by creating osmolar gradients. And, that's shifting you over into fructose production. Alcohol consumption chronic is associated with gaining weight and metabolic disease and stuff. But, when you hear people talk about why, it's like, “That's bullshit.” People be like, “Because alcohol is a sugar.” It's not a sugar, it wasn't sugar, it's not sugar anymore, but it's because of its ability to sort of push these switches.

Ben:  Yeah.

Chris:  And, what we've been looking at is, what are the compounds that bring you back from all that? And, it turns out a bunch of these things that are AMP-K generators are also blocking a lot of those feedback loops. So, quercetin is kind of chief among them. Quercetin and luteolin as xanthine oxidase inhibitors which inhibit formation of fructose, but they're AMP-K activators and they also are blocking this aldose reductase, which is what allows alcohol, salt, and high sugar levels to shift you into fructose production.

I think that's how people get stuck over and the people who can't wait lose weight. They think they're doing the right diets and they're trying to go keto, but they just can't generate the ketones, they just can't generate the weight loss. I think that's where we have to block all these little things along the way and pull out a bunch of dietary things and coordinate that with the lifestyle stuff to flip them over.

Ben:  Right. And, of course, all that would be true unless you're going to want to go compete on the TV show “Naked and Afraid” and you want a whole bunch of energy availability. I mean, if you think about it, really it's actually a pretty good idea if your body can make fructose instead of glucose out of some of those substrates because the muscles don't contain the enzyme necessary for converting fructose into appreciable levels of glycogen that could be burnt for energy. Therefore, you're going to shift those pathways towards fat storage and kind of a camel hump fat type of scenario be better equipped to survive in a state of caloric deficiencies. But, of course, we once again return to the whole evolutionary mismatch and the idea that, well, there's very, very few use cases for that scenario to be occurring–

Chris:  [00:23:51] _____ and well-fed.

This is a whole paper on the fructose metabolism, the brain driving Alzheimer's. Fructose in the brain drives foraging. It makes you bingey. That's why high fructose corn syrup makes you want a more high fructose corn syrup and why a lot of these things just make you super hungry. And so, it's on us.

Now, we're coaching people to flip over into these cleaner metabolism paths, but we got to know some of the hitches and the things that stop that–

[00:24:44] HIIT is the best means for activating AMP-K pathways

Ben:  Right, right. And then, we should give a head nod, of course, to the fact that when we're talking about quercetin or other senolytic agents or anything like that. There is absolutely nothing, at least as far as I've seen, that would be at the top of the totem pole compared to high-intensity interval training for activation of AMP-K pathways. There's kind of two ways to induce mitochondrial biogenesis. There's the PGC1 alpha pathway where you're doing long aerobic training sessions kind of like the Ironman triathlete marathon type of scenario, and then you've got your AMP-K pathway, which is more high-intensity interval training. And again, if people are listening and you want to get into nitty-gritty specifics, I mean really the gold standard scenario for something like AMP-K activation is about 10 to 30 seconds balls out, smoke coming out your ears effort followed by about four to five minutes of active recovery done about four to five times. And so, even in our sector, we see people coming out with these, what's the company, CAROL. They do an artificial intelligence bike where you're just sitting on it–

Chris:  I was going to ask you about that.

Ben:  A couple of 20-second efforts. But really, you just basically need access to any piece of cardio apparatus. You set your timer, you warm-up for four minutes, go, 30 seconds balls out, go again for four minutes, easy, 30 seconds balls out, and you do that basically four to five times, and you're triggering that AMP-K pathway more than probably a dump truck full of quercetin.

Chris:  And, that was what I wanted to get from you.  Some people are real stubborn to jump over AMP-K. So, the quercetin is also blocking the formation of uric acid. It's increasing the clearance of uric acid. So, if you can use the supplements not as much to drive the AMP-K, but to get rid of the other things that are holding or to block the other things that are holding you into AMP-D and then you use the high-power hit to flip you over an AMP-K, that's how I see this stuff kind of going. And, once you get stuck in AMP-D and you build–this is funny because then the downstream element, the uric acid is keeping you in there. And so, you need this stuff to block the formation and you need to hydrate like hell and you need to pee like hell. And so, you need to supplement all that to let that drive off. But then, the superpower switch is that interval training that you're just saying.

Ben:  Yeah, yeah. And, I don't know about the mechanism of action whether it is any type of buffering effect that quercetin might have on uric acid. And, this is another thing to think about that I don't know the answer to. But obviously, when you look at just about any effort from an exercise standpoint that exceeds around 20 seconds, we just threw 30 seconds out there, you're forming a certain amount of lactic acid not as much as you might get from a highly glycolytic one and a half or two-minute effort. But, it's really interesting because when you look at lactic acid and not only the fact that it causes an amplified growth hormone response, but it is one of those molecules that can cross the blood-brain barrier and is actually a pretty stable source of fuel for the brain, amplifies vascular endothelial growth factor in neural tissue, can increase BDNF and is actually a pretty cool little molecule. I would just be curious if some of these compounds that you could theoretically propose could be combined with exercise to increase even greater the amount of AMP-K might simultaneously decrease lactic acid buildup and therefore be something to kind of like an ice bath might call the hormetic response to exercise. Maybe it's something you separate. So, you got your interval training session in the morning and then you would take your uric acid buffering agent in the evening. And, I have no clue if the mechanisms of action would be similar enough for uric acid versus lactic acid if that would be the case, but it's just a thought.

Chris:  No, it's a great question. I'll look into it. But, quercetin blocks xanthine oxidase which forms uric acid and it hits a couple of different enzymes including the aldose reductase, which puts you into the endogenous production of fructose. So, it's working not just on the AMP-K, but on all these downstream metabolites. But, you absolutely do not for getting rid of the uric acid, you do not have to have it at the same time that you're working on. So, if it does get in the way of lactic acid, and we'll look that up. Yeah, you just do it a different time. But, taking the diuretics and the quercetin and one or two other things, it'll move the machinery over and they'll clear out of your body. Especially doing nanoparticles, they're done in 90 minutes, they're out of the body. So, they've done their job, they're draining stuff out, they're blocking the production of uric acid. And then, a couple hours later or maybe you do them at night, then you go–

Ben:  Well, that's good to know. That's good to know. The only thing I like to take before my exercise session is my horse syringe of Andro. And, if I'm distracted by having to take quercetin and anything else, it's just going to be a pain in the ass. So, alright, good to know.

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Chris:  Hey, how do you use hydrogen around exercise?

Ben:  Well, hydrogen as a selective antioxidant is one of those few compounds from an anti-inflammatory standpoint that not only am I comfortable taking it around exercise as opposed to say a high-dose vitamin C, or super cold ice bath, or something like that potent anti-inflammatories, I'd actually want to separate from the exercise session by a few hours. Hydrogen doesn't fall into that category. And, considering that, particularly, hydrogen and actually Tyler Lebaron from Molecular Hydrogen Foundation made me aware of this study just about a week and a half ago. Molecular Hydrogen when combined with nitric oxide, which there's a few different ways to do that, you could use a canned hydroxide beverage–

Chris:  Yup, the HydroShot.

Ben:  Yeah, you could do that. You could go with Nathan Bryan. He sells a bunch of supplements that do a really good job increasing nitric oxide. You can pop a Viagra, whatever–

Chris:  Citrulline. Yeah, totally.

Ben:  Yeah, yeah. But basically, any anytime you combine nitric oxide with hydrogen-rich water, hydrogen inhalation, you actually see this really cool interplay between cognitive output and neuroplasticity, particularly when combined with exercise. So, this whole exercise makes you smarter type of effect might actually be amplified by increasing levels of hydrogen nitric oxide pre-exercise. And, it also appears to be able to help with exercise recovery while also not wanting your muscle, your mitochondrial response. I'm one of those guys who's just pretty simple. I wake up in the morning and I just have a big glass Mason jar of hydrogen water. And, I don't go out of my way to time it before exercise. Although when I used to compete, Spartan races, and stuff, my last glass of water before the race, I'd always dissolve a few hydrogen tablets.

Chris:  Right. Yeah. Now, when you hear Tyler talk about hydrogen and he'll often call it an exercise memetic, and so it's funny because it's got this selective antioxidant for just getting hydroxyl radical like the worst of the worst. And otherwise, it seems to have these hormetic actions associated with light peroxidants. So, it's Nrf2. And, it's an AMP-K activator, and it's kind of quercetin, it's in the body for 90-minute stops. It goes in, does its job, and goes out, and seems to make everything work better that you're trying to do. And so, like you said, that's something that's not going to douse any of the appropriate flames that you're trying to create when you work out.

Ben:  Did you ever take a bath in it though? That's the million-dollar question.

Chris:  No, I have not. I hear people talking about that.

Ben:  Yeah. They do bath up. Apparently, there's some transdermal absorption. And, I mean, I'm like Queen Cleopatra. If there's something I could take a bath in, I'll try at least once whether it's milk, or wine, or whatever. So, I take magnesium baths about once a week for soreness. Anyways, you'll get a good book and soak for 20 or 30 minutes. And, I'd I tried some of those hydrogen tabs and I can't say I went out and crushed the PR and the bench presser the next day. But, it was interesting. You're actually selling them for bathtubs now.

Chris:  But, mass transfer-wise, how much is going into you versus into the air, versus you drop those capsules. I mean, you don't even really need to dissolve the tablets, you just throw them all in. And, everything is going into your body versus like the transdermal one I was like, “Well, I don't know.”

Ben:  Yeah, yeah, exactly. If you're supposed to drink hydrogen-enriched water within whatever, three to five minutes after you dispense it, I'm curious how much is still in the bathtub after you've drawn up your bath.

Chris:  Yeah. I can tell you right now as a chemist like zippo. We're not a whole–

Ben:  Yeah. And, probably the level of importance to which this is going to be impactful or meaningful for the world is like a 1 on a scale of 1 to 10.

Chris:  Right, right.

Alright, so we actually kind of hit, as I was talking about long-term biohacks what are the kind of things that you could do that really work. And, some people are not Ben Greenfield, Ironman Triathlon people, but if they can do some hit stuff, everybody can accomplish some hit stuff. And, if they can use that especially with a little bit of fasting as a big AMP-K driver, that's something that's there. What do you think are other easy enough to incorporate long-term biohacks?

Ben:  That's simple. That's a softball, man. It's just all electron flow. Just to jump straight into the chase, it's grounding or earthing basically whether that'd be preferably via the use of just grounding shoes, or being outside barefoot, or rock climbing, or trees, or the sand on the beach, or swimming in the ocean, or even a lot of these ice baths. I have one of those Morozko Forge ice tubs and I tested it with one of those like that phase angle measurement device. And, it's 20 times the amount of grounding or earthing I'd get while standing outside barefoot. So, even being submerged in a body of water is one of the best things, especially if it's plugged into the grounding outlet of your home.

Chris:  Yeah. I was going to say is that because you have the ground into that. Oh, great.

Ben:  Yeah.  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, grounding and everything, sunlight, red light therapy is right up there as well, and then hot and cold water and minerals. I mean, really assuming that you're moving low-level physical activity during the day, high levels of what's called non-exercise activity thermogenesis preferably taking 10,000 steps or more a day, and just moving and shaking all day long, eating, well painting with a very broad brush for most people, some semblance of a Mediterranean-esque diet. There's all sorts of dietary customization issues you can get into.

So, let's say you got those two bases covered because you've been reading Men's Health magazine like a good little boy, or Women's Health, or whatever. And then, the stuff they don't talk about, well, it's just all kind of electron flow stuff. So basically, it's grounding and earthing, and then really, really good photonic light exposure, preferably via the use of sunlight as well as a lot of these infrared and infrared light treatment saunas and light panels. And then, pretty robust sauna or heat practice. And, even if you can't do that. I didn't used to be able to back when I was training for Ironman and stuff like that. I didn't have a sauna. I couldn't afford one, but I would just wear extra clothes when I'd exercise. There are ways to trigger heat shock proteins without using your favorite podcaster's discount code to buy a giant sauna for your basement.

Chris:  Yes, exactly.

Ben:  And then, you've got cold, which is obviously free, easy, and pairs quite well with the heat. Those are dailies for me, heat and cold, dailies earthing and grounding, daily infrared light use or sunlight. And then, the last two would just be, I mean, you got to carry these charges through your body. So, really good clear, clean, filtered, structured, getting a little bit woo-woo preferably energy enhanced water that's been exposed to good frequencies, and good energy, and good emotions, and then minerals whether it's something like Quinton, or just a really good full-spectrum electrolyte, or a variation thereof, as well as produce grown and mineral-rich soil. And, I think those six would just like [00:41:40] _____ stop taking all their supplements and all the crazy fancy stuff and just start with that base, throw in some good relationships.

There's probably one other that I'd consider throwing into that equation that I've just been more and more. Well, I shouldn't say two others really, but I find more and more integral to my own practice in terms of just making me feel a million bucks. And, it would be sound medicine and breathwork. So, what I mean by that is my sons and I, my 13-year-old sons and I are on basically a breathwork gong right now where we're doing 100 days of breathwork. Typically, when I say a breathwork, our sessions last anywhere from 15 minutes to 60 minutes. Usually, we'll do the 60-minute sessions on the weekends very much kind of holotropic-esque type of work. They usually flatten our back in the sauna. And then, the other sessions are typically in the morning as a wake-up kind of alkalizing pranayama breathwork type of section or in the evening kind of blowing off some CO2 with the longer exhale sessions. So, I think the breathwork is pretty integral and the clients that I work with, it's kind of a required practice on the daily now.

And then, the other one, sound medicine, just the fact that our cells respond and are so tuned into frequencies, and this idea that I used to think was woo. Some people use tuning forks that are tuned to specific cells or organs in the body, or specific sound healing tracks like, yeah, whatever. People wear that Lovetuner necklace where you blow on it. It's the most expensive shitty harmonica known to man, but it's basically 528 hertz and you blow into it. It makes that little sound. And, I used to kind of raise an eyebrow of that stuff, but man, I have that company Biomat. I don't know if this is a good brand or whatever, but they sent me one of their acoustic sound healing tables. I have a bunch of these sound healing tracks. Yeah. And, there's a bunch of companies that make different tracks so you can download at specific frequencies. And, some will just, for an hour, go from the root chakra frequency all the way up to the crown and back down. And so, about once a week or so because you can put on top of a massage table. When I get a massage, I'll do one of those sound frequency sessions. And then, also the fact that when you're doing a lot of the breathwork, you're humming or you're making an audible sound and often an audible range of sounds.

Chris:  Right.

Ben:  And then, I love to play the guitar and sing and play my hand pan stuff anyways. But, I think if someone doesn't have kind of some form of a robust and mindful intentional use of sound in their life, specifically by doing something like a sound bath or chanting, singing, humming, practice, or breathwork with audible exhales. They're probably missing out on a really, really cool and easy way to feel better. So, I would probably throw breathwork and sound medicine on top of the earthing, the grounding, the light, the heat, the cold, the water, and the minerals as another couple to consider.

Chris:  No. I mean, breathwork, for sure. And, I like that you brought up the sound medicine. And, I recognize very clearly, you're talking about a two-way street there. One is hearing sounds that are harmonizing you. And, the other one is making the sounds.

Ben:  Yeah.

Chris:  And so, engaging the throat chakra. And, so many people are so screwed up in their throat chakra and they should see if they're having a hard time doing that. If they can't generate dynamic range or around certain people they don't have that dynamic range to look into to why that is and free up that knot because it's a super-powerful one for expressing yourself, and having emotional harmony, and manifestation, and is then the gateway up to the higher chakras and being able to open yourself up and communicate with the universe.

Ben:  I tell you what, my wife was pretty cool, I think, from day one. But, I've witnessed her blossom into just a beautiful wonderful, blessed woman over the past I would say about three years or so.

Chris:  Yeah.

Ben:  And, part of that is she's kind of found her voice. She's found her boldness. She was dyslexic growing up. She didn't have that great of an experience in school and kind of grew up being told she was small, she was stupid.  And so, whenever we've done energy scans, for example, with her like AO scan, or my health, or whatever, the throat chakra is always kind of closed and blocked. And, you know what's kind of funny is I got on her, oh gosh, it was about three years ago to start doing a lot of these breathwork sessions, sound healing sessions, and throat chakra work, and acupuncture. It's like the shoemaker's wife wears, no shoes. She never does anything I tell her. But basically, she just started up just a super robust prayer practice where she's sitting up in the bedroom. Typically, she gets up, she gets ready for the day that she just put some earplugs in and sits in this little meditation cushion in the corner of the bedroom for an hour. And, when I walk in there, I can hear she's praying, she's talking to God, she's reading scripture, and she's toning her throat chakra when she's doing all those things. And, obviously, there's a huge emotional spiritual, even like a neuro theological component to that as well. And, I swear, she's just become more bold, more forthright, just able to, for better or worse for me being her husband, able to voice her opinions more forthrightly.

And so, yeah, it really is interesting this idea of, I think, in a lot of people working on the throat chakra or whatever that means for you being something that could probably benefit you, especially if you're one of those people who feels kind of as though you want to be more of your true authentic self rather than who you think the world expects you to be.

Chris:  Absolutely. My ex-wife went through almost exactly the same thing. The shoulders are in, you're guarding the throat chakra, you don't know that you want to be heard and stuff. She wasn't raised intellectual like me. And then, she went through a period where she obsessed on quantum physics and astrophysics stuff and would listen to it all and then relate it back and have to talk to this Ph.D. about this high-end stuff. And so, that was giving her strength there. And, she became a fencer and running around and stabbing people and screaming and stuff. And, those two together brought her out to a space she'd never been before. And, I think that's so important for us to recognize that in the people in our communities and our families when they can't do that and try to encourage them to find whatever that mix of practices is to open up that space of that, your own creativity, and your own dynamic interaction with spirit of the universe.

Ben:  Yeah, yeah. And, I mean if there's anything that people get out of this whole podcast, it's probably take out fencing.

Chris:  Gave her an ability to stab me that made her happy. She was like, “Alright, we're going to go fence.” I'm like, “Oh, you mean, I'm just going to get hit? Okay.” That was funny.

Ben:  Some people take up salsa, some fencing.

Chris:  Yeah.

And so, now that we're on the subject of women, this I think it probably came up the most in terms of fasting and keto where guys just thrive on this shit, but women sometimes have a hard time. How have you seen that start to resolve?

Ben:  Well, I mean, first of all, it kind of depends. For example, it would depend on premenopausal versus postmenopausal. Postmenopausal women very similar to men don't seem to experience the same type of endocrine dysregulation as premenopausal women do in response to long fast. Particularly fast that exceed about 12 hours in duration. That's when there seems to be a little bit of a dip in kisspeptin hormone in premenopausal women, which leads to some luteinizing hormone and follicle-stimulating hormone imbalances that could decrease fertility or the proper balance of endocrine hormones, thus dictating that well in men a fast of 12 to 16 hours as an intermittent daily fast seems somewhat appropriate and well-tolerated in premenopausal women. And, a lot of the lean athletic premenopausal women who I've worked with especially all the more so seem to do better with a 10 to 12-hour intermittent fast, which kind of brings up the point of, well, if autophagy doesn't kick in until 16 hours or more, then am I screwed? Do I just have to choose between fertility and longevity? And, really what I have most of the lean active premenopausal women who I work with do is they'll do a 10 to 12-hour intermittent daily fast. But then to tap into autophagy, typically just a couple of times a month will work in a dinner time to dinner time where it's a Saturday night to Sunday night. So, they're getting around 24 hours or so.

And, then as I do, I encourage most of my clients to weave in a quarterly cleanup where we're doing a juice fast, or bone broth fast, or fasting-mimicking diet, or something like that. But, those are short-term bouts into what one could argue could cause some amount of endocrine dysregulation in a fasting female. But, I'm not concerned as long as it's not on the regular just kind of following that.

Chris:  Right. How many days?

Ben:  How we live our days is how we live our lives.

Chris:  How many days is that quarterlies?

Ben:  Four to five days.

Chris:  Four to five, okay.

Ben:  Yeah. And, for me personally, just because I'm in the industry, bro, so everybody's talking to me about the latest panchakarma, or bone broth, or fasting, mimicking diet, or ABC this, XYZ that. So, for me personally, it's kind of fun because I'll just be like, “Yeah, okay. Well, that's the one I'm going to try this fall. And then, I'm going to try that one this winter.” So, I'll just experiment with stuff. I can tell you, the fast that I have felt the best on above all of them has been the kitchari stew one where you have the mung beans, and the ghee, and the olive oil, a little bit of grapefruit on that. Last day, you get that whole liver dump. And, I always feel amazing.

Chris:  That's what I did too. I freaking love kitchari. It's hard. I'm a pitta-vata, but that vata comes out if I don't eat for longer periods.

Ben:  Plus, you get to eat shit. It's probably the cheapest fast. You didn't have to buy any fancy supplements or anything else to it. 

Chris:  Yeah. It's like brown rice, mung beans, and three spices: coriander, cumin, and turmeric.

Ben:  Yeah. There's one other spice that starts with an A. I forget. Not ashitaba, it's something else. But anyway, there's one other that kind of amps it up a little bit.

Chris:  Okay.

Ben:  I'll think the name of it. And, there's even guys like another guy down there in Boulder, Dr. John Douillard. He's got a little eBook that he publishes like a five-day little Kitchari cleanse guide that I'll tell people, just go read that and do that one. So, for women, yeah, that's kind of the skinny on the fasting piece. And then, the other thing to bear in mind is that when you are in the follicular phase, you might actually tolerate fasting a little bit better just due to the increased estrogen bioavailability. And, there's certain phases that you might feel a little bit better. And, if you check out a book, Alisa Vitti's got her FLO book. But, you can also experiment with just basically fasting doing the more extended fast during that part of the period where you're utilizing fatty acids a little bit more efficiently, anyways.

And then, the other interesting thing is that also for women, I always thought it was interesting when he used to compete in endurance sports. And, the longer and longer the event goes, the closer and closer the women's champion finishing time comes to the men's champion finishing time because women seem to just do better the longer and slower that the event gets. And, part of that is obviously due to fast switch muscle fiber composition and they increase strength and power than the male species as a whole. Anyways, painting with a broad brush because I don't want to be sexist or anything, you know me. But, then the other part of it is that women also tend to metabolize fatty acids really efficiently. And, although the body of studies on women's ability to, let's say, be able to push beta-hydroxybutyrate and use that a little bit more readily as a ketone body or anything like that, there's not a ton of studies on that. There are some rodent studies that seem to show that female rodent models in ketosis seem to have even more stabilized cognition like decreased level of cognitive decline compared to male. So, women may actually be able to utilize ketone bodies a little bit more effectively as well. But, painting with a broad brush, women shouldn't fast as long as guys should as premenopausal women.

Chris:  But, possibly without fasting, if they're taking say fat in the morning, keto coffee or just do MCTs or whatever, are you still considering that fasting or do you think that's enough calories to sort of split the difference for them?

Ben:  Yeah. I mean, obviously, it depends if you're putting, whatever, 5 grams of butanediol in your morning coffee. That's not really going to, I think, trigger your endocrine system much at all or be recognized that by your body's an appreciable source of calories, but if you're doing the whole quarter stick of butter with some mushrooms and such a raw honey or whatever. I think, if there's some sort of triggering event to your body that there's some calories present, again this is all anecdotal because there's no studies on this, so this is all theoretical. But, I would think that because a meal like that, and that is a meal by the way dumping a bunch of fat into your coffee, because that does kind of break a fast. That's probably enough of a signaling event where you're not going to see a significant downregulation in fertility. Although, of course, the best thing to do is just test your LH and your FSH, or run a DUTCH protocol for a few months and just kind of experiment with a few days where you wake up and you do fasted exercise, and then maybe a few days where you just fast without exercise, and then maybe a few days where you do the butter in your coffee or some type of ketogenic starter with exercise, then another few without exercise. It's a little bit of pain in the ass, but over the course of maybe six months, you're going to have your whole physiology figured out if you run a few test like that.

Chris:  Right. I got you. Well, let's go back into and sort of before we wrap up just dissect that a little bit more, just the fat part, not even in relation to women, fat in the morning. So, on one hand, some people say, “Well, fat doesn't break the fast because you don't have any insulin generation and there's no carbs, there's no branched-chain amino acids, so you're still mTOR blocked and AMP-K activated,” but there's got to be other signals that you're getting just from the calories.

Ben:  Yeah, yeah. There's an increase in hormone response even if it's not calories, even just the taste of stevia, or monk fruit, or allulose, or something like that dictating that if your goals are pure autophagy and living as long as possible, cold and hungry and libido-less, then yeah. I mean, you should probably not do anything at all in the morning. But, I think that for most active healthy people, it's more of just a mental masturbatory grasping at straws argument that really at the end of the day it doesn't matter that much if you have a tablespoon of butter in your morning coffee versus not. I don't think. For most people, I think there's much more important fish to fry.

Chris:  Yeah. And, especially if you're trying to get some of the intermittent fast and what you look for is just a little more mTOR blocking, a little more AMP-K, I don't see that the fat's going to screw that up, but it is going to give you some juice.

Ben:  Yeah, exactly. And again, as you noted, especially in the absence of leucine or any type of mTOR trigger, yeah. I mean, it's a moot point. And honestly, if you're concerned about the calories, I mean just cut straight to the chase and have some ketone esters instead. If you're really that worried and you're that concerned about being hungry until lunch or whatever, that's probably the easiest way to hack things.

Chris:  Yeah. Yeah. It's always been my recommendation that, yeah, just take the fat in the morning and just wait until lunch. I think, that's sort of especially for guys and postmenopausal women that just don't freaking eat breakfast. And, if you need something, put a little bit of fat in your coffee and just wait till lunch is just such a simple freaking way to go. And, in my heavy supplement world, we take some AMP-K charge and some hydrogen water and some PC, and everybody seems to do real well on that.

Ben:  Yeah. I mean, sometimes it's just experimentation and figure out what works for you. Obviously, you can imagine, Chris, just because it's kind of my job, I experiment with this stuff all the time like, well, we're talking right now. My breakfast this morning was colostrum with a couple of dropper fulls of that Tru Kava stuff to kind of take the edge off, a handful of Qualia Mind, and two shots of this one three butanediol ketone ester. And, I'll do that. So, right now, we're talking about ketones, colostrum, kava, and Qualia. And then, people of course will leave a comment and be like, “So, is that the new based on research gold standard way to start off your morning?” No, it's just what I'm experimenting with. And, I don't feel half bad. I mean, maybe I'll do it again tomorrow. But again, that's what I do is I'll experiment with stuff and just kind of see how I feel.

Chris:  Yeah, no. It's definitely what I do too. I know for a little while I was adrenally depleted. There was a lot going on. And, one of my friends got me eating more carbs and stuff. And, I just don't do so. Later in the day, I do, but I just do best if I don't eat in the morning, I drink coffee, I take AMPK Charge which just takes away all the hunger and just go until lunch, and a couple other supplements and Go-Go juice in there. And, I just feel great as long as I keep doing that. And, I got to say understanding the uric acid path. And, if there's a fault I have is I go out and drink too much and I use too much salt. And, understanding that those two are pushing AMP-D and that I can block those and roll back a little bit on my consumption. But, I can block those, those have really helped, I've noticed, lower uric acid levels in the morning. And so, just some key little places where we can shift the needle.

Ben:  Yeah. And, from an alcohol standpoint, two things to give a head nod too that I've already mentioned at some point during our podcast anyways like ketones and kava are amazing as alcohol substitutes at night. Literally just a serving of 1,3-butanediol with a really good kava root extract, you can literally put that on ice with some lemon juice and you'd feel ten times better than if you had a cocktail with none of the blowback.

Chris:  Now, the kava, for sure, GABA agonist. And, that's the thing with the alcohol, it's a GABA agonist. And so, you're chilling that out. But, I did not know about the ketones. I mean, do you know what they're doing?

Ben:  Yeah, they're GABAergic.

Chris:  Really?

Ben:  I mean, look at gamma-hydroxybutyrate, which the Feds outlawed date-raped drug, that's one–

Chris:  It's a ketone.

Ben:  That's 1,4-butanediol. So, I had a one four butanediol. It's a ketone basically. So, yeah. I mean, the most potent sleep tonic known to humankind that shockingly doesn't actually seem to disrupt sleep architecture much at all, the GHB. The unfortunate part is just too dangerous to mix with alcohol. But, at least from a social standpoint.

Chris:  Yeah.

Ben:  So, anyways though, so yeah, ketones actually as a GABAergic agent in the evening combined with some another GABAergic agent like kava, it's a pretty good mix. Plus, you don't wake up hungry at night.

Chris:  Yeah. Well, that's fantastic. Well, part of that waking up hunger is that freaking the brain fructose development. And so, they are the things that blocked that. And, there quercetin again does that. But yeah, that's a good one. So, GABA and ketones for Friday night or maybe for Thursday night.

Ben:  There you go.

Chris:  There you go.

Ben:  Yeah.

Chris:  Alright. Well, thank you, Ben. It's been great. I think we've covered a lot of great things. I love those, your sort of top six there. And, I'll put those in the shownotes. Anything else you want to throw in right now?

Ben:  You know what, I know that you've got this podcast and I think we might be even releasing this audio on my podcast as well. I think that was some of the chatter going around. So, I would say to my guests who are anybody who's still listening hasn't gotten sick of us yet, if you don't know about Chris, if you guys have heard me talk about anything from LipoCalm to Quicksilver Scientific, to the detoxification protocols, to the crazy mad scientist who I know named Chris Shade, that's Chris. And so, if you guys haven't yet gone and tapped into his stuff. I'll link to it on my end and in my shownotes as well. And, your podcast, this one that we're doing on your side, Chris, is called Shades of Health, right?

Chris:  Shades of Health on DrChrisShade.com. And, we'll get you a discount code for your people for the Quicksilver store as well.

Ben:  Oh, wow.

Chris:  And, yeah. And, we'll just cross-pollinate, and I'll encourage people instead of trying to get Peter McCullough on mine, I'll encourage him to go back onto yours and look through all of Ben's awesome podcasts in there. And, I'm going to go back and look at the knee foot toe guy because I do–

Ben:  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris:  Yeah, I have structural issues that sort of all land in my feet. And so, they're always stressed out a little bit. And, that's where I put my stem cells in. And so, I'm sure he'll have the right exercises to tear those things open and let him heal right.

Ben:  Sweet, sweet. Well, that all sounds amazing. And then, yeah, I only cross-pollinate with people who take showers regularly. So, be sure to do that. And, Chris, I love you, and thanks for the chat, man.

Chris:  Alright, love you too. I look forward to seeing you again soon. We'll see you at RUNGA.  And, we'll keep all this going.

Ben:  Alright, later.

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10 March 2022

My guest on this podcast, Dr. Chris Shade, Ph.D., founder and CEO of Quicksilver Scientific®, specializes in the biological, environmental, and analytical chemistry of mercury in all its forms, and its interactions with sulfur compounds, particularly glutathione and its enzyme system.

Dr. Chris Shade has patented a mercury speciation diagnostic process to analyze human toxicity, founded the only clinical lab in the world offering mercury speciation analysis, and has designed cutting-edge systems of nutraceuticals for detoxification and antioxidant protection, including advanced phospholipid delivery systems for both water- and fat-soluble compounds. His Quicksilver Delivery Systems® nanoparticle technology increases the bioavailability of supplements and protocols leading to higher efficacy products.

Chris is regularly sought out to speak as an educator on the topics of mercury, environmental toxicities, neuroinflammation, immune dysregulation, and the human detoxification system in the United States and internationally. He has helped corporate executives, professional athletes, celebrities, children with autism, patients with chronic immune disorders, and more. Dr. Shade strives to evolve the way the medical industry delivers care, and he is perpetually broadening the way the world understands health.

Dr. Chris Shade has a new podcast called “Shades of Health.” For this podcast discussion, which he recorded while interviewing me for his new show, we also decided to release it right here on my show for you. So enjoy! And be sure to check out all Chris's crazy effective formulations at Quicksilver Scientific® (use code GREENFIELD10 to get a 10% discount).

During our discussion, you’ll discover:

-A scintillating update on the condition of Ben's left knee…6:07

-Targeted senamorphic drives throughout the year as a hormetic trigger…16:10

-HIIT is the best means for activating AMP-K pathways…24:43

-How to use hydrogen around exercise…33:48

-Biohacks for the average human…37:51

-Gender differences with fasting and a ketogenic diet…49:26

  • Depends on pre vs. postmenopausal
  • Shorter windows on intermittent fasts for women (10-12 hr. daily fast)
  • 4-5 day fasting-mimicking diet (FMD) every quarter
  • Kitchari fast

Page 1 / 1Zoom 100%

-The breakfast protocol Ben is currently experimenting with…58:35

-And much more!

-Upcoming Events:

Resources from this episode:

Chris Shade:

– Podcasts And Articles:

– Other Resources:

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