[Transcript] – How To Use Testosterone, Peptide Stacks That Will Blow Your Mind, The Truth About Getting Peptides On The Internet, & Much More With Jay Campbell.

Affiliate Disclosure


From podcast: https://bengreenfieldlife.com/podcast/jay-campbell-limitlesslife/

[00:00:00] Introduction

[00:01:14] Podcast Sponsors

[00:05:57] Who is Jay Campbell?

[00:08:40] What is Jay's background

[00:11:00] How Jay got into testosterone therapy?

[00:15:13] Young men and testosterone deficiency

[00:21:16] The proper use of testosterone

[00:33:14] Podcast Sponsors

[00:37:00] The availability and the use of peptides

[00:44:52] What are Ipamorelin and tesamorelin?

[00:55:30] Why are bio-regulators even better than peptides?

[01:00:35] Tanning peptides

[01:04:55] How long will peptides and bio-regulators be legal?

[01:12:42] Hair growth lotion

[01:18:06] Closing the Podcast

[01:19:32] Upcoming Event

[01:21:02] End of Podcast

Ben:  My name is Ben Greenfield. And, on this episode of the Ben Greenfield Life podcast.

Jay:  This is completely unequivocally proven now that all hair loss is called by blood flow restriction to the scalp. Okay, it's not caused by DHT, it's not caused by this, that and the other, it's caused by blood flow restriction to the scalp which ultimately, okay, can be caused by a thousand different things: heavy metal contamination, overexposure to sun, sweating, anxiety, too much insulin, too much sugar, too much alcohol. I mean, again, a thousand things can cause blood flow restriction to your scalp.

I have androgenic alopecia. My mom's dad was bald and I would probably be bald right now, Ben. And, since I started using this product off and on when I had access to it, which has only been in the last couple of months now the new one, Auxano ran out last year in September, I've regrown my hair.

Ben:  Faith, family, fitness, health, performance, nutrition, longevity, ancestral living, biohacking and a whole lot more. Welcome to the show.

BON CHARGE sounds like some kind of a French bakery but it's not. It's a company that basically is a one-stop shop for everything you need to optimize your environment and make living in a modern-day world a lot more primal and ancestral. We're talking about light bulbs that simulate the natural spectrum of light that you'd normally get from sunlight without all the nasty harmful EMF high flicker Wi-Fi infused bright overhead lighting you find in the average house or office. All the Light cans in my house are equipped with this type of lighting and you can get it all easily even though it's hard to find on other websites from BON CHARGE. 

But, that's not all, they've got EMF-blocking products like earphones that you can attach to your phone that keep you from getting headaches and keep your head from getting heated up with wireless radiation. They've got laptop mats that protect your down-under area, your nether regions, your gonads so you aren't making little zombie sperms. They've got phone stickers that help to neutralize the ion radiation emitted from your phone. They've got an EMF protection blanket which I love to use in the plane along with an EMF protection hat and beanie to protect any part of your body that you want from 5G, from Wi-Fi, from EMF. They even have cold and heat therapy massage guns and massage balls, things that help you to maintain young muscle and work out fascial adhesions and soreness and pain. All this stuff is at BON CHARGE and they're giving all my listeners a massive whopping 15% off of anything from the store. Super fun place to shop around for stuff to optimize your life.

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Hey. So, if you see me walking around with this crazy-looking patch on the back of my arm, it's a blood glucose monitor. I actually monitor via a tiny invisible needle that doesn't hurt at all when you put it on and stays on for 14 days. Every bite of food, every activity I take, what it does to my glucose levels, my blood glucose levels, the reasons for that is because as I've talked about many times on podcasts and in my books is that poor glucose control or what would be also called poor glycemic variability if you want to sound all smart and multisyllabic is associated with a host of issues like low energy levels, poor weight management, sexual dysfunction, chronic conditions like diabetes, heart disease or Alzheimer's, you'll learn all sorts of cool things. 

If you're feeling kind of wonky during a workout, you can check it out and see if it's actually your blood glucose or you wake up at 1:00 a.m., a lot of times that's a dip in blood glucose as well. You want to see how your body responds to fruit or rice or sweet potatoes or nuts or steak, your body might process it well, might not. You don't know that unless you're actually tracking and testing. Personalized data is so powerful and the Levels app goes way beyond the other blood glucose apps because they interpret the glucose data. They give you a simple score after you eat a meal so you can see how different foods affect you and you can develop a personalized diet that's right for you. You can see this data in real-time. Super powerful as a behavior change mechanism as well. Trust me, it's hard to eat an extra slice of cheesecake when you know it's going to be showing up on your blood glucose monitor 10 minutes later. So, you'll get objective data based on your own unique physiology.

And, Levels is giving all of my listeners two free months of their Levels membership and access to the app when you use my special link. It's levels.link/Ben. That will give you a one-month supply of continuous glucose monitors, a 12-month membership to their app, and an additional two free months of their annual membership at levels.link/Ben.

Let's say you don't want to eat 10 salads a day but you wanted the micronutrients and vitamins and minerals that you can get from plants. And, you know one of those plant defense chemicals going up your system or a giant grocery shopping cart full of kale. Well, there is a company called Organifi. They make the most amazing tasty low sugar, glyphosate-free, organic superfood blends. You just take a scoop of this stuff. It's less than 3 bucks a day and you're paying 15, 20 bucks for these green juices a lot of times from these juicery outlets and it's ridiculous. You can make this stuff for pennies on the dollar in your home with no shopping and chopping and clean up and juicing. And, they taste amazing, organic, they're free of fillers. And then, I mentioned less than 3 grams of sugar per serving, so you aren't sucking down 10 apples and four pears and two bananas jammed into a little 8-ounce bottle. They're amazing.

Organifi makes a host of products but their Green Juice, you got to try that stuff if you just want all your vegetables and you want it done for you. Great tasting. Organifi.com, it's Organifi with an i.com/Ben is how you can try this stuff. Highly recommend and it's a just a great easy way to get your nutrients in.

Alright, my guess on today's podcast has been on the show before twice. He did this big podcast with me a couple years ago about hair growth and about reversing hair loss and about all these crazy things you can rub into your scalp. And, that was a great episode. I'll link to that in the shownotes. And then, he also came back with one of his buddies. Actually, that hair growth one was actually with his buddy Nick Andrews, but then before that, he was on my podcast talking about metformin. And, if metformin is really dangerous and kind of early on in the peptide days was sharing a lot of these peptides for muscle gain and for fat loss. We talked about testosterone optimization therapy and a lot more. 

And, he's just a wealth of knowledge. I would describe him as kind of this cowboy biohacker who's kind of deep into the science but really does a good job expressing it to the layperson. If you're watching the video version, you can also see a video of him and see that he does indeed practice what he preached. My guess is he's a fit guy himself. His name is Jay Campbell.

Jay not only has a fantastic book about testosterone optimization therapy, but he also has a host of other super helpful courses, many of which I'll link to in the shownotes which you can find at BenGreenfieldLife.com/LimitlessLife. He has a peptides course. He has a testosterone optimization course. And, perhaps most relevant to today's discussion, Jay sent me a package last week full of peptides. Now, I usually go through a doctor to get my peptides but based on a few conversations I've had offline with Jay and some of the stuff he's been sending me, he's been able to actually make peptides accessible to people who want to order them from the internet without going through a doc and want to access to some really, really interesting stacks that I honestly have all sorts of questions about Jay because I started using this stuff and it feel like I'm a teenager right now with whatever you send me that I've been injected into my body.

And yes, my wife is taking the tanning peptide and she's very, very happy about it because she's developing this tan, beautiful, not an orange fake spray tan but she's getting tan and we could talk about that one. And, the reason I'm avoiding it because it gives me erections that leave me up for hours on end, but we can get into all that. So again, folks, the shownotes are going to be a BenGreenfieldLife.com/LimitlessLife. I'll link to all Jay's stuff along with all these peptides and nootropics and everything we talk about. I'll throw discount codes, all that jazz in there for you.

So anyways, Jay, you ready to do this?

Jay:  Let's do it, Ben. Thank you so much for that amazing introduction. I love and appreciate you, my brother.

Ben:  I love and appreciate you too, man.

And, I got to ask you because I don't even know if we talked about this in the past before, but I'm sure people will want to know what is your actual background. I mean, you're not a physician but you know a lot of stuff when it comes to the deep science. So, tell me about your background in all this.

Jay:  Yeah. So, I mean, I have a college degree, bachelor of science. My major was international relation. I do have a minor in molecular biology. So, I was always kind of a science nerd going through school. But, as you guessed it and most guys like us, I'm pretty much self-learned. And, my story which I gave on the first podcast which I'm not going to provide here, go back and listen to the first podcast, like you said, it was amazing. Since I started therapeutic testosterone after getting kicked in the testicles playing basketball in my late 20s, I just became this amazing astute student of PubMed, MEDLINE, what we had access to back then. I mean, I'm 52 years old, so I mean this goes way back now 23 years I've been using testosterone in almost 20 years using therapeutic peptides.

So, at that time, Ben, it was just kind of the wild, wild west on the internet. And thankfully, I had access to PubMed and MEDLINE from the relationships and the friends that I met and stuff like that. And so, I just really, like you said, biohacked myself, was my own lab rat. It was very meticulous about what I did until eventually enough people who knew me were like, “Dude, you got to write a book about this.” And so, obviously, I wrote my first book which was the “Definitive TRT Manual.” It was actually done in 2014 but published in 2015.

Ben:  Was that the one we did a podcast on the, the TRT manual? 

Jay:  The one we did was the second one, which was the much more advanced one which is the TOT Bible.

Ben:  That was fantastic. That taught me so much about aromatase inhibitors and injections versus creams versus pellets. It's still one of the go-to resources. You have that folder in your computer where you keep all the PDFs that you don't want to delete. It's in there and I still review that. I still go back to it. People have questions about testosterone. I've sent that to doctors who do hormone replacement therapy who have changed some of the things that they're doing just based off of what you wrote in that book. And, I won't dwell on that too much just because we have a whole podcast on it. I'll link to it in the shownotes along with the book.

But, just to interrupt your story. I don't want to derail you too much, but you said you got kicked in the testicles and that's what got you into testosterone therapy?

Jay:  Yeah. I mean, I was ex-college and pro basketball player and I still played in men's competitive leagues and it was when I was 29, almost 30 was close to being 30 when I got kicked and just went out of the game, killed over. And, about six, seven weeks later started feeling the effects of what I had no idea at the time was type 2 hypogonadism. So, I was lucky enough to go to a PPO doctor.

Ben:  Type 2 hypogonadism. That means it's not coming from your brain, it's coming from your testicles that you can't make testosterone.

Jay:  Yeah. It's essentially what they refer to as environmental testosterone deficiency.

Ben:  Okay.

Jay:  And, the PPO doctor that I went to recommended me to an endocrinologist. Again, as you know, there's no coincidence, it's only synchronicities in the universe and the guy that he recommended me to was a guy by the name of Dr. Ramon Scruggs.

Ben:  Okay.

Jay:  It happened to be a Harvard-educated endocrinologist who was in Orange County California. And, I met with him and he was like, “This is weird, let me run your testosterone.” And, when he did, I had a testosterone level, I don't remember this is back in 1999 but 180 to 220 or something. So, classically low and he told me that I could start therapeutic testosterone and get myself right as rain. And, he said go home talk to your fiancée at the time and find out if you guys are good with it. And so, of course, she was like, “Well, you're a smart guy. Yeah, sure.” And then, started using it. At that time even then, there wasn't the obviously advanced protocols that we have now. But, as he said within six to seven weeks, bro, I felt absolutely amazing.

And so, when I went back to him and he wanted to withdraw me, I was like, “No, no, no, no, no, no, I don't want to come off this.” And so, then from that point, I was 30.5, I just became a student of testosterone and, of course, various other biohacking things. And, eventually, 12 years later, I wrote the book, the first one, which is the TRT Manual in 2014 and then, of course, the TOT Bible, which was written in 2018. And then, you and I spoke three months later.

Ben:  By the way, did you know that I also had a testicular injury? I used to ride motorcycles a lot. I was super into motocross and not really racing, but I just did a lot. I was homeschooled and so typically I'd finished school around 11:00 a.m. or noon and I'd just be out dirt biking for the next two or three hours. And, we had all these trails cut through our land. I grew up on about 6 acres in North Idaho. And so, I had this whole track back out in the backyard. And, as I was going around one of the corners at about, I was probably doing 30, 35 miles an hour so I was really busting through this corner, the front wheel hit a rock and I went flying over the handlebars. And, the only thing that stopped me and slowed me down was my crotch ripped into the handlebars sent me flipping and sliding about 30 feet. And, I laid there for two hours until somebody found me because I couldn't walk, I couldn't move. One of the landscapers actually found me, dragged me up to the house where they actually had an ambulance come bring me to the hospital. My testicles were already at that point like the size of baseballs and I had to go through a series of visits to the urologist, to the endocrinologists. They weren't sure if I was going to be able to have kids.

I remember the thing I was most pissed about was I had to miss the entire basketball season that year because I couldn't jump, I couldn't run. And, it wasn't until I conceive twins with my wife that I realized I actually was fertile. I hadn't done any sperm morphology tests or anything like that. But yeah, the ultimate outcome of that really besides taking great care to protect my testicles and contact sports and motorbiking was I've been shy on motorcycles ever since. But, I don't think it results in any type of secondary hypogonadism on my part. I think I induced more primary hypogonadism through 20 years of endurance racing, a low-carb diet, and kind of a masochistic amount of exercise. And, maybe we can get into that at some point.

But ultimately, back to your story, the testosterone optimization manual that you wrote. You said you were in 2015 and that's where I interrupted your story.

Jay:  Yeah. No, exactly. Well, I mean, I have more questions about you. So, for me, the doctor, he's guessing that it was a combination of environmental factors obviously and then also being kicked, which as you know, you're right, we can get deeper into this now. 

I literally just came back from AMG's medical conference and this is congenital, Dr. Rudolph Eberwein who works at a clinic in South Florida did a presentation on EDCs, on endocrine-disrupting chemicals and it was, Ben, one of the top five presentations that I had ever seen in any medical conference. I've been going to the medical conferences now for 11 years and it was just about how bad it is right now out in the world for young men due to, again, all these environmental contaminants. So, it's interesting because then it wasn't nearly as bad for you and I back then. Obviously, you were injured and I was injured but it's crazy how bad the environment is contaminated.

I know you know Dr. Anthony Jay and he wrote his book, “Estrogeneration.” He started talking about this and was really the first guy, but now, it's measured in the studies. There's all sorts of peer review. So, he published a study or he didn't publish a study, but he presented information about a study that's three years old. It shows that one out of four men between the ages of 20 and 35 have a testosterone deficiency. And, the problem with that information is that that's only the men that are being measured. So, imagine how bad it really is.

Ben:  Because a lot a lot of guys will only measure if they feel something's wrong, so there's probably more people out there. Did it come up at all at the medical conference anything that surprised you because a lot of people are aware, Jay, of plastics and styrofoam and maybe the BP [00:17:06] _____ receipts at the gas station or something like that. But, were there any particular elements that really surprised you as far as environmental barriers when it comes to testosterone production?

Jay:  Yeah. I mean, I don't think your audience is because you cover this so well and you do such deep dives with so many different people on this. But dude, dirty electromagnetic frequencies are in the major cities are absolutely terrible. So, obviously, you already know about blue light. I mean, let's just put it this way. It's almost inescapable now for younger men and women. I mean, right now, we have the worst fertility crisis in the history of the world. I mean, again, and since first world being measurement, it's very difficult, for mid-30s and early 40's couples to have kids, especially if you live, again, in large urban coastal population centers. I mean, it is really, really bad. And, I think it comes from everywhere. Again, blue light, computer screens, being fixed on technology from video games and Netflix, and all this stuff, it's rewiring dopaminergic pathways in the brain.

Ben:  So, that would be primary hypogonadism. You're not saying like if you're shining blue light on your balls, what you're saying is the actual exposure to some of these electromagnetic frequencies can result in more of a primary hypogonadal effect?

Jay:  It's definitely both. I mean, if you talk to the docs, when they get a six–I mean, this is the normal story now, 16 to 18 to 20-year-old kid comes in, the parents bring them in and they say my son had a testosterone test done with direct labs or productivity labs or one of the independent places and he has a 150, a 120. I was talking to doctors and start seeing kids who are under 20 that have 70 less sub 100 total testosterone and free testosterone levels that are basically non-existent. And, the only thing that they can extrapolate or basically pontificate is that it's due to video games, lack of exercise, obviously, crappy food. Young men are not, and this goes actually to women too because you could make the same argument with women and that many of them are “reaching puberty” early or menstruating earlier. It's just basically the way that they are living is different than the way that you and I lived. People are not outside grounding in nature. They're not taking part in athletics. Again, there's obviously various people that are, but the majority is not.

Ben:  Some of them. Not my sons. Maybe I need to buy my sons some EMF-blocking underwear, which I actually own and use. I'm not brand specific, but I think there's one company called Lambs. There's another company you make called Snowballs and they make the icing underwear or the underwear that keeps the temperature cool, which is a whole different discussion. But man, my sons are eating fresh eggs from the chickens. They're outside in the sunshine all day. They're rarely on devices except for school and they're finally starting to go through puberty. And, they're rolling in jiu-jitsu, they're playing tennis, they're lifting weights. And now, when you hug your kids, I'll hug them in the morning and they'll hug me back and it'll be a Vise-Grip. And, it's kind of cool to see my sons going through puberty and developing muscles and fitness and drive and aggression. And, I feel pretty good about where they're at. But, based on what you've just described, I probably should buy him some EMF-blocking teenage boy boxers.

Jay:  That's what you have to do. I mean, my daughters are 15 and 13 and they're also very athletically inclined. My 15-year-old is in cheer and gymnastics. She flips across the room 12 times. But, as parents, we really do have to be proactive and obviously teach them healthy habits. And again, I know your books do a great job on all this. And again, I don't want to rabbit hole on this, but the situation is that right now our society, at least in the West, is being contaminated. It's a multi-siege environmental contamination effect across everyone, both male and females. And again, if you're not proactive and do the things that you and I talk about all the time, you're behind the 8 ball. And, it's happening now for younger and younger men, which is just literally insane. But, to get back to the original thread of me writing about testosterone and then just becoming my own biohacker.

I was using peptides, Ben, since 2004. 

Ben:  Oh, wow.

Jay:  Yeah. So, in the deepest part of when I was really into the self-experimentation and using testosterone on myself–and, by the way as I said in the first podcast, I've used every injectable. I mean, delivery system including injections.

Ben:  Intranasal. What about intranasal?

Jay:  So, I haven't used intranasal but I'm very familiar with it. Dr. Ramasamy in Miami is kind of the guy that was really behind doing that. And now, they have obviously Natesto is actually a FDA-approved form of testosterone. 

Some people tell me that it's okay, but majority of people that I've spoken to and also physicians that are prescribed it says that most patients that use it get headaches and various other “side effects” or irregularities. So, I mean, it's everything, some things work for some people, some things don't. But, with testosterone, it's still the same old tried and true. The two best delivery systems by far are injectable. And again, when I say best, I mean to simulate the body's natural diurnal pulsar release of endogenous testosterone. And, that's going to be either daily injections, microdose injections, or every other day or what I use, which is the Transscrotal testosterone cream, which again you place on the base of your scrotum. And again, the reason that is is it's eight times more permeable and that's through eight or nine, maybe even more now scientific studies that show that. And again, that's also the half-life of transscrotal testosterone against 200 milligrams per milliliter testosterone is about four to six hours.

Now, all men and, of course, women excrete testosterone differently. They cleave it in the bloodstream molecularly at different rates and speeds. And so, some people who are “hyper excreters” of testosterone both male and female may need a second dosage of cream in the day. But again, everybody's different on that stuff. So, there are now as I was telling you a year ago, their oral delivery systems that are attempting to be patented, there's a couple that are already FDA approved, they're so weak. In all the studies, they get guys' testosterone to 300 to 400 and free to 20 to 25. But, for anybody who's a clinician who's doing this regularly and understands this, that's not optimal, especially when we understand that as we age, our natural production is caseating or lessening. So, why would we want normal of lessening when we can have optimal? Again, it's always the same thing. It's like if you're going to work with a physician that does this, make sure they understand how to do it and that they've been working with a lot of different patients for a long time.

Ben:  For kind of the average guy even though I know averages are tough to approximate using something like the scrotal cream approach and doing the micro-dosing that you recommended simply because as you alluded to on the last podcast these big bullish injections in no way simulate the natural diurnal variation of testosterone that should occur from day to day. And so, you do something like the micro dose injection or as you alluded to, the micro dose cream. About how many milligrams in the average dose of cream would you use if you're doing a little bit in the morning and a little bit in the evening scrotaly?

Jay:  The bigger problem is that across the world now, there's a lot of different compounding pharmacies. And, we're going to talk about compounding pharmacies and then this podcast because it's a very important point. They're compounding various different milligram dosage amounts. So, at the beginning as you know, all of the “bad studies” that were done on transdermal testosterone were AndroGel, which was 50 milligrams per milliliter which is absolutely almost a non-existent amount of testosterone when you understand how testosterone, again, is molecularly cleaved in the bloodstream for men as we age. So, that dosage and delivery system was absolutely useless because nobody ever got any kind of even restoration or optimization. 

And now, you have compounders making 100 milligrams per milliliter, even 150, but all the studies that show benefit are at 200 milligrams per milliliter and there's three different brands. There's HRT, there's [00:25:22] _____ and I forget the other one, but it doesn't matter. They're all basically compounded 200 milligrams per milliliter. 

So, to answer your question, normally the recommendation for scripts for docs that write scripts for this for men is two to three clicks in a Topi-CLICK applicator, so you just kind of twist it until it comes out twice or three times. And, that's either going to be dosed one time in the morning and possibly another two to three clicks in the afternoon. And again, everybody's going to be different.

Ben:  How many milligrams would there be in a click or in two to three clicks?

Jay:  So, it's 200 milligrams per milliliter. So, basically, three clicks is going to be 200 milligrams.

Ben:  Okay.

Jay:  So, if you're doing two clicks, you're probably somewhere between 100 and 150 milligrams now.

Ben:  So, you'd be at 2.5 to 3 grams per week?

Jay:  Yes. But, here's the thing, you can't extrapolate milligrams and grams from injectable to milligrams and grams and cream because the half-life is so much shorter. So, in transdermal even all that much, the way it's cleaved in the bloodstream, most of it is not used and it's not accessible. So, that's why it's that's much higher dosage than actually the injectable, which again is a higher impact delivery system because it crosses the blood-brain barrier and also gets into portal circulation faster. So, it's just something to understand that the difference between injectable and cream is that the way it's molecularly absorbed is totally different. And, that's why you need a higher dose of the cream. And again, it's just a much shorter half-life. Some people, if they use three clicks in the morning and they're a hyper excretory of testosterone, they could literally be almost efficient by 6 or 7 o'clock at night. You know what I mean? And so, that's why they take a second dosage.

But for me, I've never had to take a second dosage. I'm not a hyper excretor. I usually take two to three clicks. If I go lay on a weekend with my wife and we want to get frisky or something like that, maybe I'll apply another couple clicks in the afternoon.

Ben:  You notice the effects that acutely, huh?

Jay:  Yeah. I mean, again, because the half-life is so short. So, most guys who start with the cream are going to notice something within–first-time users are going to notice something within 48 hours without question. You're going to notice enhanced dopamine signaling. You're going to enhance well-being, better energy. And again, this is just the way the testosterone molecule cleaves and estrophizes in the bloodstream. But again, we're all different and when you're working with a physician that understands how to prescribe this, they're going to notice your effects and work with you and connect with you and communicate with you over the first couple of weeks that you do it to kind of really tailor your dosage or titrate down or even maybe titrate up. And again, we're all so different. I mean, I see a lot of people that just are like, dude, I have to take a second dose of the cream because by 4 or 5 o'clock, I start feeling down.

Ben:  Wow.

Jay:   So, one of the things that Dr. Jay–and again, there's so many of them out there now, you probably know 20 people that look at people's DNA and analyze polymorphisms and all that stuff, they can tell you if you're a hyper excreter. Some people too when they take therapeutic testosterone, they have magnesium depletion issues and it literally freaks them out. I won't tell you stories of things that I've heard from some of my doctor friends about working with people who have that issue. And, what happens to them, they get go paranoid and have anxiety. I mean, it's a very small percentage of people, but obviously, for the most part, most people who use therapeutic testosterone feel amazing on it.

Ben:  Why do some folks recommend instead of getting on therapeutic testosterone to take something like Clomid or some kind of aromatase inhibitor? What's the logic behind that?

Jay:  Well there's no logic behind using an aromatase inhibitor for testosterone optimization other than just misreading the studies or the science. As you know on our first podcast and as I continue to be a beacon of knowledge when it comes to teaching people, we'd never want to ever block estrogen under any circumstances. And, of course, when I say under any circumstances, there's always an outlier position. But, for people using therapeutic testosterone and this even goes into the bodybuilding world who are using obviously high dosages, super physiological levels, testosterone is the anabolic signal along with DHT which is dihydrotestosterone, but the protective effects come from estradiol, which obviously aromatizes into estrogen. And, we need healthy, and I would even argue, high levels of estrogen to confer protection to all of our biological systems.

So, the heart, the vasculature, the brain, bone mineral density, all of these various organs and biological systems in our body are protected by higher levels of estrogen. And, all of the science shows this that there has been a misinterpretation and also a misextrapolation of seeing men who have high estrogen levels but also high inflammation and visceral fat levels. And so, what ends up happening is is they correlate the high inflammation and high visceral fat with the high estrogen, and then they tell people, and when I say they, I'm talking about doctors who misread this that there are high estrogen symptoms. There's no such thing as high estrogen symptoms. This is a total misinterpretation. There's high inflammation due to high levels of fat, obviously estrogenic fat, which again is visceral body fat. And, that is all due to metabolic dysregulation, again, from obesity, too much belly fat, blah, blah, blah. So, there's no such thing as high estrogen symptoms, there's just high inflammation and high estrogenic body fat, which again is visceral body fat which is extremely inflammatory.

So, this is where people get confused. So, when you take therapeutic testosterone, you never block estrogen because you need as much estrogen as possible to confer all of the healthy effects that estrogen, again, confers to all those organ systems. Now, bodybuilders will take AIs and take also SERMs, which are selective estrogen receptor modulators for various things because, again, they're taking super physiologic levels. And, when you take that high of levels, and by the way, we're not talking about what you and I are talking about, we're just kind of just making this aside so people understand this. But, even when they take massive levels of steroids and other things, they obviously have a lot of aromatization from all the various drugs blocking the side effects that come from that, which are obviously water retention, mood imbalances, just kind of not feeling stable because you have so much drug circulating in your system.

Taking an AI to suppress, again, what they think are the side effects from it is so harmful. There's a lot of people out there now Physicians that are doing tests, you can do DEXA scans, you can also do biological age tests, and you can see what Ais, which again, aromatase inhibitor blocking medications do to your biological age, to your telomeres. I mean, they're basically cell decayants. I mean, literally, I would say over time and again, when there's more data from the biological age tests aggregators, you'll be able to see what people they're using when they use AIs. And, by the way, this also is going to get into as we get deeper into this when we talk about hair regrowth and loss, it's the same thing with DHT inhibitors. So basically, all these things that block natural God-given created systems in the human–

Ben:  You mean like Rogaine or something like that?

Jay:  Dude, all of them. Now, obviously, the clinical versions are stronger than the over-the-counter versions like Rogaine. But yeah, finasteride and dutasteride, all of these 5 DHT Inhibitors, PDE5, or whatever inhibitors. I mean, all these things are horrible to biological system health. And again, in the next three to five years, my assumption and maybe it'll take even longer because everything moves so slow in medicine, we are going to start seeing that men who have been using high-dose AIs and high-dose DHT Inhibitors are having really poor biological age values because of what they're doing to the telomeres.

Ben:  Okay. So, I don't drink much alcohol these days. I was out with my wife the other night. We were on a date. And, sometimes when we go on a date, I'll have a cocktail before dinner or with the appetizers and sometimes I'll even have a glass of wine or split a glass of wine with her during dinner. I know I'm such a teetotaler, whatever you call it, lush. Anyways, the last time we did this, I took a shot of this stuff called ZBiotics. Apparently, it's a probiotic that's a genetically engineered and super precise form of bacteria that metabolizes alcohol for you. Designed to work just like your liver but in your gut where you actually need the enzymes to break alcohol down.

So yeah, you could rehydrate and take activated charcoal and all this other stuff, but that's not breaking down the alcohol, that's just kind of fighting against the side effects. This stuff actually gets rid of the alcohol after you consume it or the nasty alcohol metabolites. It's crazy. And, I felt amazing the next day even though I'd had a cocktail and a glass of wine, which I know weak sauce would normally kick my butt. So, the ZBiotic stuff is super interesting. I think it's going to be a keeper for me. And, the thing is it's this tiny little probiotic shot, tastes great. You just drink a little bit and it gets rid of this unwanted byproduct, a chemical byproduct of alcohol called acetaldehyde. So, you drink a little bit right before you drink. I think it works if you take it right after, but you could also ideally take it before, helps a ton.

So anyways, if you want to have a cocktail and you want to feel great afterwards and you want this chemical that can help to break down alcohol or this probiotic rather that can help to break down alcohol, then you should check this stuff out. You get 15% off. ZBiotics.com/Ben, Z-B-I-O-T-I-C-S.com, ZBiotics.com/Ben. Get your 15% off your first order. Use code BEN at checkout. They're backed with a 100% money-back guarantee, so if you're unsatisfied for any reason, they'll refund your money, no questions asked. So, you go to ZBiotics.com/Ben and use code BEN at checkout for 15% off. It's pretty amazing. Try it out the next time you're on a date night.

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My intention for having you on the show today, Jay, was actually to talk about peptides. And, we've already taken a deep dive into testosterone and I'm–

Jay:  But, it's good because you have a huge audience that people need to understand this.

Ben:  I should make sure that I mention again. You guys need to read Jay's book and listen to our previous podcast on testosterone because even though I would love to ask Jay additional questions about estrogens and liver metabolism and some dosing questions, I actually really want to make sure that we talk about peptides today.

Jay:  Absolutely.

Ben:  And, by the way, also read this new book by Darin Olien called “Fatal Conveniences.” I think it's called “Fatal Conveniences” or I got to look at my shelf, it's back there somewhere. Anyways, read it, new book by Darin Olien if you want to wrap your head around some environmental factors that might not be so great from an estrogenic or testosterone standpoint.

But, back to peptides, Jay, you sent me this package and I've never really ordered peptides from the internet because the general consensus, at least to my understanding, has been issues with purity, issues with some of these pharmacies, and issues with you potentially emptying your pocketbook on what could be very expensive peptides with low efficacy or impurities.

Jay:  Saline water.

Ben:  Yet you swore to me that what you were about to send me was the equivalent or safe or what I could be getting currently through a physician, which is obviously a little less convenient than just being able to go order your peptides from the internet or from something like this new website, what's it called, Limitless Life, Limitless Life website that you've made. So, what is going on exactly with this ability to be able to now order peptides from the internet?

Jay:  So, first off, I just want to say I agree with you. So, for my personal perspective, as I told you, I've been using peptides since 2004. I always in the beginning–I mean, first off in 2004, doctors weren't prescribing peptides anyway. Nobody knew anything about peptides unless you were involved–

Ben:  Insulin.

Jay:  Yeah. I mean, exactly, but I mean from a clinical compounding pharmacy prescribing peptides as they have let's say the last six or seven years, there was nobody that was involved in peptides. And, you count it from basically being an underground forums, bodybuilding, Usenet groups, and stuff like that. 

And so, my first foray into peptides was using ipamorelin in 2004. And, it's really funny because I think you know this, I did a podcast in early March on our friends, our mutual friends, Mind Pump, Sal, Adam, Doug, and all those guys, and we went really, really deep on peptides and it was an amazing podcast for the public and, of course, for their audience and for a lot of people, but–

Ben:  I'll include that in the shownotes. They're great, the Mind Pump guys.

Jay:  They are, dude. It was an amazing podcast. Yeah, I'll definitely point to that. It would be really helpful for a lot of people, but a lot of people that listen to that to their audience heard me talk about Southern Research Company and this was the company in Texas that I and everybody else that was using peptides which there was obviously a very rogue small group of humans back then that were using it. But, there were people in that audience that heard that and they were like, “This guy's legit.” And, they messaged me and they're like, “Whatever happened to them” and I'm like, “Man, your guess is as good as my guess.” 

But again, 2004 through 2006, I was using it ipamorelin through Southern Research Company in Texas whoever they were. And obviously, again, they were back. I mean, I know who they were without getting anybody in trouble. They were basically the back office operation of a compound pharmacy that was just selling these things on the internet through bodybuilding magazines and underground forums. And dude, ipamorelin was the most profound thing at the time that I had ever used, I mean, next to testosterone.

And then, as you know, and we can go deeper on this and obviously I write about this in the book with the god stack and all these other things, testosterone and growth hormone-inducing peptides and of course, human growth hormone itself have a synergistic effect. And so, when you're using a surgically precise dose of testosterone and growth hormone or any peptide-inducing growth hormone like ipamorelin, tesamorelin, CJC, we'll talk about those. They're just amazing together. 

So, when I started using it ipamorelin, I was like, “Wow, I got leaner.” I put on maybe 3 to 5 pounds of muscle. My training was better. My sleep was incredible. But, to originally your question, it's weird because, again, with compounding pharmacies selling peptides through prescriptions with doctors in the last six or seven years and then previous with my experience using research chemical companies, I was reluctant like you to talk about research chemical companies. But, Limitless Life Nootropics, the owner who I'm obviously a very close personal friend with, Chris Mercer, he actually does certificates of authenticity on all of his peptides. He also is the only guy I know in the industry, and again, I won't mention names, there's obviously peptide scientists that's big and great company they've been selling peptides for close to I think a decade now, somewhere between eight and ten years and they're by far the biggest outfit from a gross revenue standpoint in the industry for peptides but they're not testing their peptide. And, Chris came to me two years ago and was like, “Look, man, I follow you, I think you're awesome,” blah, blah, blah, “would you be interested in promoting my peptides? There's a reason I want you to and here's the reason.” And then, him and I obviously became really good friends.

So, fast forward to now, obviously, since the book launched, I have affiliate links in the book, of course, to Limitless, and Limitless has exploded. I mean they're basically doing seven to eight times of revenue a month than they were doing before the book launched. And obviously, the Mind Pump podcast helped. The book is selling like crazy on Amazon, of course. A lot of people, Ben, are looking at peptides.

Ben:  What's the name of the book?

Jay:  It's called “Optimize your Health with Therapeutic Peptides.”

Ben:  Okay. Yeah.

Jay:  And then, there's a subtitle.

Ben:  And so, these Limitless Life peptides, they have a certificate of authenticity. Are they doing something different that other compounding pharmacists aren't that allow them to maintain that purity?

Jay:  It's hard for me to answer that because I don't know–this is what I'll say. I don't know of any compounder or research chemical company–we can talk about the difference between research chemical companies and compound pharmacies if you want, I'm happy to. But, I don't know anybody that's actually going out on the line and paying an independent third-party company to test their peptides because it costs money, one. And, number two, they're using an FDA registered DEA certified lab to do it, right?

Ben:  Okay.

Jay:  So, whether they're a compounder or a research chemical company who's actually doing that. Now, again, the compound people will hear this podcast and they'll say, “Ben, that's just part of the deal if you're a compounder.” Well, is it? I mean, again, who's testing the compounders?

Ben:  Yeah, that makes sense. Well, I can tell you that I began to use what you sent last week and I had forgotten you brought up ipamorelin. You send me ipamorelin and tesamorelin. You actually asked me about a few of the things that I'd want to try and I named those two because I did a stint of them a couple of years ago. I think I did two different 8 to 12-week stint of them during the year and saw profound increases in lean muscle gain and fat loss despite no significant changes in diet and exercise. And, my sleep score has been 92 to 95% for the past week since I started doing that. I actually do the ipamorelin injection in the morning and the tesamorelin in the evening. And yeah, I had forgotten how unstoppable you feel when you're taking these things. And so, the ipamorelin and the tesamorelin, why is it that that compound or that stack seems to work so well?

Jay:  That is a really good question. So, obviously we wrote about that in the book. So, I know you already mentioned Nick. Nick Andrews and I were involved in writing the book. We obviously produced the course but you were so gracious to promote for us last year. And then, we're going to talk about a new course that's coming that's going to be for babies. And then, let's just take a step back before I answer your question. I think you know this. Your audience is a lot bigger than mine. I mean, the reality is that peptides represent this new form of let's call it quantum healing in medicine. And, in the last three years, regardless of our opinions of what have happened, a lot of people feel burned. They have lost trust in allopathic medicine. They've lost trust in let's call it the system. And so, what's happening right now is a lot of people are coming into let's just call it collective awakening or mass consciousness and they're like “Peptides!” And, I don't want to rabbit hole and talk about bioregulators but I know we're going to be talking about that because that's even a bigger thing coming because their orals are not injectables. But, the biggest issue with peptides as you know and you just said it, you're like, “Oh, I injected this at night and this in the morning,” then that literally eliminates from our internal, Jay Campbell, teams' surveys and questionnaires that we do. 85% of people are still too afraid to inject themselves. You and I can sit there and we can show them that it's a 32 or 31-gauge insulin needle and you can jab yourself anywhere and you won't even feel it.

Ben:  Basically, what millions of diabetics do daily.

Jay:  Exactly. But again, it's a hang-up, it's actually called tyrannophobia, which is a fear of needles, needle phobia but it's called tyrannophobia, a fear of injections.

Ben:  Yes, that was a fear of dinosaurs but it makes sense.

Jay:  Dude, it's the craziest name, what it means. Yeah, me too, “tyrannophobia.” But, the reality is that you got 85% of public that will not inject themselves. So, we can sit up here and we can talk about how amazing these things are, but there's still this level of fear that the consumer, the end user has to overcome. And, once they do, I mean, obviously it's simple. It's like brushing your teeth, but it's very interesting because that's the biggest bugaboo as I've gotten so deep into this. And honestly, as I told you four months ago and you were obviously very gracious to write the forward for the book and I'm very grateful about that and I appreciate you guys. I always say, man, I truly love and appreciate what you do for me.

Ben:  Embarrassingly live on the podcast could not remember the title of the book I wrote the forward for. But, I remember it was quite good.

Jay:  You talk to a lot of people, bro. It's okay. No, but seriously, truthfully, it's crazy to see how big peptides are becoming right now in the mass consciousness. I mean, my assistants cannot handle the emails and the messages that I'm getting and so I'm letting forewarning as when this podcast runs, man, you are going to be getting so many people message you asking you questions. Not that you don't already but about this because this is just such a big thing right now. 

But, at the end of the day, injecting yourself is, like I said, brushing your teeth after you do it once, perhaps twice. You're never going to be afraid of it, you're not going to have fear of it. It's something that's very easy to do. It doesn't require any kind a skill. Watch one video, listen to me and you talk about it.

The next course that I have coming, which is called Peptides Demystified, is going to be a basic intro newbies, total neophyte level course on how to do this with all of the questions that people have that you and I take for granted. Again, how to prepare your needle how to use bacterial static water, how to inject a peptide, all this kind of stuff. So, it's going to be much more helpful and I will apologize to the audience, not your audience but the world at large, and say I really took for granted a lot of the basics because I've been using peptides for so long but most people have no familiarity with them at all. So, I'm really grateful now that there's obviously you giving me this forum and obviously the Mind Pump guys too to really talk about this because I'm telling you, man, it's mind-blowing how many people are interested in peptides.

Ben:  I assume for back to that very simple stack that I think is quite excellent, especially for any exercise or fitness enthusiasts or someone looking for the simultaneous muscle gain and fat loss effects that with ipamorelin in the morning and tesamorelin in the evening, especially based off what I've seen in sleep parameters that the primary effect going on is a growth hormone-inducing effect.

Jay:  100%. And, I'm sorry I didn't answer your question. That is the strongest mixture of peptides for exactly what you said to produce size and strength gains and also to minimize fat deposition. Now, as you know, and your audience of course knows too, body fat loss and muscle gain is always relative to caloric intake. You're not going to magically put on 20 pounds of muscle by using tesa and ipa unless you eat relative to doing that.

Ben:  Which I have been doing, by the way. I've put on 10 pounds in the past month and a half even though I only, again, taking these peptides a week and a half ago–

Jay:  I can tell in your chest right now, by the way, bro. It's pretty swole.

Ben:  The impetus for that, thank you, is that I weigh 182 right now after being in the 168 to 170 range for the longest time. And, I'm 6'2, so that's pretty light all things considered, and my sons and I have a freediving course coming up and a spearfishing trip off the coast of North Carolina. So, all three of us have been making an attempt to put on a little bit of extra cushioning and insulation so to speak. My strategy, I interviewed this guy named Michael Chernow about morning routines and habits and he has an oatmeal company. It's oatmeal with collagen and pumpkin seeds and chia seeds and obviously carbohydrates if you're lean or if you're a hard gainer, carbohydrates are kind of the secret sauce for putting on a little bit of extra mass. 

So, all I've been doing is consuming one to two packets of those 350-calorie oatmeal doses per day. And, my weight gain has gone through the roof. And, the interesting side effect is anyone who's been low carb or keto has probably experienced is that when you increase carbohydrates, there seems to be a pretty potent androgenic effect. So, despite me not injecting the tanning peptide that my wife is using, I have been waking up multiple times per night with a raging 10th pitched and I think it's due to that carbohydrate intake. So, we're rabbit holding a little bit, but that tesamorelin-ipamorelin combo as you alluded to especially if you're eating adequate calories seems to really move the dial for people who want to put on a little bit more muscle in the gym. 

But, kind of related to that in the gym activities, there was a peptide I was kind of intrigued with that I believe when I interviewed, I think it was Ryan Smith, who runs the TruDiagnostics age testing company had described as something that when he began taking it added something 7 inches to his vertical jump, which sounds a stupid as seen on TV overhyped commercial type of claim but it was called 5-amino-1MQ. Is that correct?

Jay:  MQ.

Ben:  5-amino-1MQ. I never used it. You sent me a bottle. It's an oral peptide. And so, I began taking that in the morning when I'd inject the ipamorelin. So, I use that ARX machine which quantifies force production. I believe what Ryan was saying because I feel I've all of a sudden sprouted new motor neurons or new muscle fibers or something. But describe to me what's going on with this 5-amino-1MQ. I'm very surprised I hadn't kind of started to use it before with the effects that I've seen. It's pretty crazy.

Jay:  Before I do that, let me just finish on tesa and ipa because you nailed it. Tesa and ipa have a synergistic effect. Ipa is a GnRH and tesa is the opposite, whatever it's called, the GNRR.

Ben: Gonadotropin-releasing hormones.

Jay:  Yeah.

Ben:  Okay.

Jay:  So combined, they create massive intracellular water retention, which is going to swell you up. I mean, that's why your boobs are so pumped right now, bro. I mean, literally taking both of those increases, like you said, I mean combined with the carbohydrate intake, it's swelling your muscles. So, you're going to be a lot stronger. And then, yes, through your contractile force training with ARX, you're going to have hypertrophy. I mean, it's happening. And then, by the way, now that you're using the 5-amino to swing into that, that's going to be absolutely permanent just intracellular skeletal mass or lean muscle gain. So, what 5-amino does is it optimizes and upregulates your mitochondria.

So, Limitless has two formulations which he sent you both. He sent you the capsules and he also sent you the powder. The powder actually has an amine in it.

Ben:  You mean nicotinamide mononucleotide the same NAD precursor many people are using?

Jay:  Exactly.

Ben:  Okay.

Jay:  Right. And, he's got the perfect dosage in there, and again, remember it's a synthesized powder. I mean, dude, we could go rabbit hole right now. We could talk about some of the NMI supplements out there which I think are mostly horse manure because I don't think that they're synthesized correctly and I don't think they're in the right dosage. But, without disparaging supplement companies or anything like that, I definitely know because I've used it myself like you have that the effect that you're feeling is totally real. 

The problem with 5-amino and it's not a problem but in my experience and others, you build up antibodies on it pretty quickly. So, I would tell you that you probably are going to get four to six weeks of feeling unreal. It definitely does increase vascular density. I mean, you're going to feel stronger and more energized on it. And, like you said, combined with ipa and tesa, you're going to be diesel. I mean, you're going to be so strong.

Ben:  Yeah. Based on that effect you noted, I do with all peptides go five days on, two days off. And, I only use them for short stints during a year, eight to twelve weeks. And, part of that is also based on the research I've seen out of Russia from Dr. Khavinson. And, this might be a good way for us to get into the bioregulatory peptides on the age reversal and also mitochondrial effects and decrease in all-cause risk of mortality with some relatively short peptide bioregulator stints of around 10 days, one to two times a year. And so, unlike many supplements people might be used to like say fish oil or creatine, these seem to be pretty effective when cycled possibly due to that effect that you noted of the body simply getting used to them possibly something else.

But, these bioregulators, you mentioned they're available orally, I believe also an injectable format. why is it that those seem to be even more effective than peptides?

Jay:  I mean, man, it's an amazing question. I mean, I don't want to sound the biggest hype in pitchman of all time, but I will give you credit when you did the podcast with Phil Micans on bioregulators, I literally was calling you the day before said, “Hey, can you connect me with them or whatever?” And then, two days later, your podcast runs. So, since your podcast motivated me and my team, I've interviewed him and my two copywriters have interviewed him and we're basically writing the be-all-end-all articles on all of, let's say, the top 20 bioregulators. So, to echo what you did in your first podcast and what I did with mine and him and now the articles we're writing, bioregulators, no smoking mirrors, and no bullshit have the opportunity to be bigger than peptides. And again, for the simple reason you and I already announced, they're mostly oral capsules. They fall under the various governing regulatory agencies across the world. Yes, nutritional supplements. They're on Amazon right now.

Ben:  Unlike the injections, these are far easier to get your hands on is what you're saying?

Jay:  And, people will use them, so you're going to have patient and consumer adherence versus the injectables. People are either afraid or just won't do it all together because of that. But, the truth is bioregulators are amazing. You already said it with Khavinson that for a long time, all of the bioregulators were due to Russian patent law were prohibited from being in the West. 

Now, something has happened in the last year which I've attempted to ask questions and I don't really get any feedback from anybody other than that whatever is going on between Russia, Ukraine, the U.S., and China has somehow allowed these things into the West now. And, like I said, they're on Amazon, obviously anti-aging systems through their website Profound Health, which you and I are of course both affiliates for are pushing them into the wild now, too. I'm looking into companies that can potentially bring them to the States and build a lab here to get involved in them. 

But, I mean, dude, honestly, when you really look at what these things do, they are way bigger potentially than even peptides. Now, we can get into the synergies of using them together, but they're tissue-specific, their organ system specific and they're also, when used in combination with peptides, biological — I'm sorry, biological system upregulating capable. And so, they're unreal. And again, they have no side effects ever measured. There's 35 to 40 years of published research in Russia and Bulgaria using bioregulators. It goes way back, again, because Khavinson patented them and Russia patent law was preventing them from being in the west. We don't have any research. I mean, there's some but very minimal amount of peer review on them. But again, that's not the case in Russia and again Bulgaria where they've been used. But, for most people that have been using them that I've talked to, and I want to give a shout out to a guy that both of us know, Dean Henry, who's over in the UAE, he says, “Ben might not remember me but I met him 2019.”

Ben:  I remember Dean. Yup.

Jay:  Okay cool.

Ben:  I met him in Dubai.

Jay:  You do remember. So, yeah, awesome. Exactly. So, shout out to Dean. He's an amazing guy. He's been using bioregulators with himself and his clients for over five years now and he just raves about six different ones. Maybe you and I will do another podcast at some point and we can go down maybe six months to a year from now when we use more of them because they're really starting to become available now. They really are profound. 

I'll just give you this story. I like to talk about it like this. So, for men, you are 40 now and getting older, I'm 52, basically anybody 40 and up. As we get older, our prostate through what is known as BPH, benign prostate hypertrophy, increases in size. And, when it increases in size, it obviously causes issues with our bladder. It puts pressure on the machinery down there so that most guys have to wake up in the middle of the night as they age and take a pee. Imagine taking a prostate bioregulator that literally specifically targets the prostate, Ben, and shrinks it as you age. And, that's what this does.

Now, also extrapolate that to ovaries for women, the adrenal glands, and again on and on, so forth and so forth, with every different biological system. And, all of them, again, specifically target those specific tissues and organ systems without side effects and they're orals. And, by the way, they're not expensive. Most dosing protocols are 10 days in a row within another 30 to 45 days off and then 10 days in a row again and then you get to a place of you can do tests or whatever and see where you are and see what your functioning is. And, you might not need them anymore. So, I mean, you can imagine how big these are potentially.

Ben:  Do you use the tanning peptide that I mentioned that my wife started taking that she's very happy about? And, mention the name of it too, Melanotan?

Jay:  It's Melanotan 1. Melanotan 2 is also out there, but I like Melanotan 1. I mean, they're both fine, but I like Melanotan 1 because, I wrote about that in the TOT Bible and the Agents of Change chapter and I also write about it in the newest peptide book, it has the ability for people like us that do a lot of inner work and meditation, introspection, contemplation to enhance against consciousness.

Ben:  Really?

Jay:  Now, when I wrote about that first in the TOT Bible, it was very speculative because I was reading articles from Frank Barr who was one of the leading researchers in the world on melanin, cortoid, receptor complexes. And so, I have a bunch of his research included in the TOT Bible in that chapter about that. But then, as I started reading more of it and I started using Melanotan more often in my life, first off, I permanently changed the complexion of my skin. I mean, I'm White as northern European White boy. And, since I started using it in 2009, 2010, I've definitely darkened my skin. I have less sensitivity to the sun. now, I'm living in Playa del Carmen in Mexico. I'm pretty much in the sun every single day and I stay tan year-round and I don't burn. I used to burn. I don't burn anymore. But, for me, the most profound effect when I use it, I use it maybe a couple times a week, and very micro dosages, the dosages are of course listed in the book.

When I go out in the morning and I meditate and sun gaze, I mean, it's insane, dude. It's just a different level, 15 to 20 minutes I can get into what I call total stillness. Not technically leave my body although I can do that if I really want to, but I just I just get into that centered stillness aspect a lot better and faster since I started using the M1.

Ben:  And, unlike in other popular consciousness enhancer, ketamine such as an intranasal dose of ketamine which some people will use pre-breathwork or pre-meditation for the dissociative effects but also gives you a little bit of a droopy dick. The opposite seems to occur with melanotan with this priapasmic effect that dictates that I can't take it because I don't sleep. Is that common amongst all men because it sounds like you use it but maybe it's because I was using Melanotan 2?

Jay:  Yeah, that's probably why. And honestly, I don't like Melanotan 2. For women, Melanotan 2 darkens their skin but obviously, they don't have the sexual function enhancement or anything like that. Obviously, PT 141 is another one. Chris doesn't have that. Limitless doesn't sell that because that's a scripted controlled medication now that Big Pharma sells. I forget what it's called. It's called afroblemenotide or something like that. But, that's a sexual enhancing “peptide' that can cause really strong erections. But, I am also not a big believer or supporter of that either because I'm a total non-responder to that, and like 40% of men are non-responders to that. But, for you, with Melanotan 2, it can cause that enhanced erection aspect.

Ben:  I seem to be a hyper-responder to just about any so-called dick drug. As a matter of fact, that PT 141 that you talked about, I do have some troches that were compounded for me that I keep on hand for date nights. And, it's so powerful that the first time I got it, I took it because I planned on taking my wife on a date that evening but I took it at 3:00 p.m. prior to some phone calls. And then, as I'm prone to do, I headed out to walk on some farm roads behind the house out in the sunshine to do phone calls, and a half hour into the first walk. I had a raging erection. I wasn't thinking about anything sexual. I was in total business mode and it just wouldn't go away and it stayed. I mean, even on our date, I had to wear the tight pants and kind of cinch the boxers up, and obviously the effects were as intended but that stuff is dang powerful, that PT 141.

Jay:  And honestly, that's why I don't like it. Well, first off, it's weird, I don't respond to that at all. But yeah, I mean I've heard many stories. That's obviously a condition called priapism. And, if you get it and it affects you that much, dude you can have a hard-on for nine hours in a row and it's a nightmare.

Ben:  It is pretty inconvenient.

So, how long do you think it is that this stuff stays legal? I'm just thinking about somebody listening and they hear this podcast three years from now. I mean, do you think they'll still be able to go to the Limitless Life website or go to Phil's website for peptide bioregulators and this stuff's still even going to be available?

Jay:  I mean, dude, it's a million-dollar question. I mean, I definitely hopefully before we end, I want to talk about GLP-1 agonist because they're such a big rage across the world right now and then definitely talk about hair growth. We'll skip to this question because it's the million-pound gorilla.

So, I actually talked to Nick earlier today and I was like, “When Ben asked me this question, if he asked me this question, how would you answer this when it comes to peptides and bioregulators?” And, his exact quote was, “For bioregulators,” he said, “Yeah, because they're considered nutritional supplements, he doesn't see any risk unless Big Pharma decides,” FDA, whatever the alphabet agencies decide that they want to go after the nutritional supplement space which they never have done before. So, very low risk if any risk at all with bioregulators.

Now, with peptides, this gets back to the compounding pharmacies and the research chemical companies. So, this is what I was told at the AMMG medical conference. And again, you probably have heard this from various people inside the health industry or medical industry right now is that Big Pharma is pissed, and this can sag us into GLP-1 agonists. Big Pharma is pissed that the compounders are “adulterating” the retail versions of the GLP-1 agonists. So, you've got semaglutide, which is called Ozempic and you have Mounjaro which is tirzepatide. And, these are both absolutely slam dunk far and away, the number one selling “peptide” medications of all time. I mean, they've already projected it, tirzepatide by the end of 2023 will be the number-one-selling pharmaceutical medication of all time.

And so, what's happened, Ben, is that the compounders without mentioning names have adulterated the formulations by adding B6, adding choline or acetyl-l-carnitine or whatever it is to the formulation which doesn't disturb the original medication which again is appetite suppressant and metabolic uncoupling to make it cheaper. And so, Big Pharma is like, “Oh no, you're not going to do this.” So, what I was told AMMG and various other people are hearing too is that they are going to have the crosshairs on all of the non-FDA-approved peptides. And, I'm not making this prediction, but what could happen without doom and gloom is that they could just shut down all off-label compounded pharmacy peptides that, again, are not FDA-approved. And, this is in the look, by the way, there's 13 FDA-approved peptides, some of which you and I would never use and have never even heard of but some of the bigger ones which would be tesamorelin, thymosin alpha 1, which is the immunity peptide. All these peptides, by the way, are covered in the book and there's a section in there, we talk about FDA-approved peptides. But, I mean, look man, it's possible that there will be no compounded peptides other than the FDA-approved ones by the end of the year. And, if that's the case, it's 90% of the public will not have access to them because, I mean, tirzepatide for one month's supply through retail is $1,400 to $1,500 and most people are paying 400.

Ben:  I went out to a nice restaurant with one of my friends who happens to be a foodie and he had taken semaglutide that morning and he couldn't even look at a big juicy ribeye steak without getting nauseous. I think he ate one half of a deviled egg and a glass of water during the entire dinner and that struck me as quite remarkable the effects that this stuff has on appetite. And, it also made sense why so many Hollywood celebrities, et cetera, are using it to spark some pretty significant weight loss and appetite suppression. Are you concerned about it at all in terms of long-term side effects the use of these type of agonists?

Jay:  No. I mean, that's a great question. I mean, there's obviously always a risk with any medication that you take, but to me, as I always say, the difference between a pill and a poison is always the dosage. There's also a lifestyle component. Let me just say and you're the perfect forum to talk about this. Dr. Peter Attia, God love him, right now he's got the number one selling book in the world on whatever it's called. It's longevity or something like that. He is one of the biggest names in the–they keep calling him Celebrity Doctor in any of the mainstream places, but he has been very vocal against GLP-1 agonists and he's been glomming on to some of the research saying that they cause muscle loss. And, I want to clarify for your audience and really the world that even though he's technically correct, the reason that this is showing up in this research is because the physicians are prescribing these GLP-1 agonists to their patients are not also concomitantly teaching their patients how to lose weight/body fat correctly.

So, what's happening, and be very clear and I made a video about this which I'm happy to give you and you guys the link to, is that the patient is morbidly obese, her insulin insensitive, metabolically dysregulated, and they get these things. Of course, let's say they're 350 pounds, they start using them and it kills their appetite as you just said and it kills their appetite better than anything that they've ever tried before. But, as you know, Ben, there's the devils in the details, you can't just stop eating without having some sort of requisite metabolic eventual shutdown, thyroid disruption, all these different things. So, it's very simple. If you're going to use a GLP-1 agonist, you also have to eat enough protein to maintain proper weight loss and, of course, body fat loss, build muscle through resistance training, do cardiovascular training to strengthen your heart, and then, of course, live insulin controlled. I mean, you got to change your diet. You can't keep eating a dumpster fire while you're taking these supplements or these meds. I mean it doesn't work like that. Everything is context.

Ben:  That's reasonable and it reminds me of the old studies that go back to 2008 showing that in the face of a clerk deficit as low as 800 calories, muscle maintenance and in some cases muscle hypertrophy or gain is even possible in the presence of resistance training. So, it sounds to me what I'm hearing is that if you were to use one of these, you should maintain adequate amino acid intake and do resistance in cardiovascular training.

Jay:  Exactly, dude. And, you're always on it. But see, that's the thing that really gets me upset is because a lot of other fitness influencers and “so-called gurus” or glomming on to Peter's statements because, again, Peter's just being the literal scientists and he's interpreting the research and he is seeing muscle loss in a lot of these people. And look, man, because I've had these people message me and email me and stuff, and you're 400 pounds and you've done everything in your life and you just are incapable of losing weight and then all of a sudden you start taking these and they're so profoundly effective that you stop eating as much as you were eating and you don't do the other things because you're literally telling the person, let's say, it's me or you saying, “Hey, no dude, you got to lift weights, you got to eat enough protein.” You're telling this person, “I don't care, I'm losing weight, I'm seeing my pants go down in sizes,” blah, blah, blah, blah. 

I see both sides of the coin and I understand where these people are coming from, but again, the devil is always in the details. If you use these things contextually, you have to also do the other things or yes you will have muscle loss, you will have thyroid issues, you will have metabolic dysregulation. You just likened it to what you likened it to. But, think about in bodybuilding world, a lot of women will go on to fitness competition stage, bikini or whatever, physique and they do crash diets and do too much cardio themselves and they destroy their thyroid.

Ben:  I think folks understand. Yeah. And, we're running up against limited time, Jay. And so, I got to ask you about this hair growth thing you've alluded to a few times because there's this dark blue lotion that was in the package that you sent to me and you told me to aggravate my scalp or do some derma rolling which I've been doing because I do that for my face sometimes, anyways, with a clay mask, so I have these derma rollers. And, you said that by rubbing this stuff into the scalp that you could actually grow hair which based on the need for stem cell upregulation and oxygenation and blood flow and microcirculation, a whole bunch of things responsible for sparking hair growth seemed like, well, honestly, an exaggerated claim. Tell me what's going on with this blue lotion. What is it?

Jay:  Yeah. And, I'm going to make this quick so we can end this amazing podcast. Again, bro, appreciate you, love you, I'm grateful, always be here. Thank you for everything you do.

The truth is that _______ was the company that you promoted for us and helped our company blow up. Nick Andrews and I sold the company last year in March to a venture capital firm. The venture capital firm for whatever reasons didn't do what they were supposed to do and at the end of the year “defaulted” on an inventory payment to us which was great for us because it broke up our non-compete and allowed us to come out with new products and businesses and do whatever we want. 

So, I sent you the newest product which is called Folitin. And, this is going to be coming from Nick's newest company. I am not actually a partner in this company. I will be an affiliate. I'm sure you will be an affiliate. And, it is a three to five times and it could be more, but we're being conservative. It's three to five times more effective hair regrowth agent, of course, it's peptide-based than Auxano was. And, remember Auxano was a combination of copper peptide GHK-Cu and carbon 60. And, it was of course also in atopical form. It worked really well. You had thousands of your audience that used it and got great results. You and your wife used it. Got great results. I used it, got great results, regrew my hair. But, the issue that most people had with it was that carbon 60 because it was in a grapeseed oil extract was when overapplied, and as you know, people always like to use more, it would cause oil in their hair and so people would complained it would get in their pillows or whatever.

So, this newest form that you have is completely aqueous-based. We have not put carbon 60 in this one although at some point we probably will again when we can make it a liposomal system so that it doesn't have any kind of oily residue or texture. But, this one is copper peptide, GHK-Cu, and three or four other aqueous-based peptides that are all built on angiogenesis, which is obviously stimulating red blood cell and flow back to the scalp. And, I have been using it myself now for a week and a half. You have been using it, I think, for what, four or five days.

Ben:  If you're watching the video right now, I have an afro. GHK-copper peptide, by the way, is I think based on the Dalton size, the measurement via which you look into the particle size of the peptide or the molecular size of the peptide is one of the few that actually is absorbed transdermally. You don't need to inject it into the scalp, you can rub it into the scalp.

Jay:  That's absolutely correct. And, I'm glad that you clarified that. If you're a user of this, and by the way, by the time this podcast runs, you'll have a website that you'll be able to send people to that will have demo videos of how you apply this. Less is more with this peptide. And again, if you are like Ben or a woman and you have longer hair, you want to make sure you get it into the scalp. Obviously, somebody like me had shorter hair so it's easier for me to get it into the scalp but you're massaging it, like you said, agitating it in the scalp. So, if you want to use a derma roller, you want to use microneedling, you want to use an agitator, that's going to be better. As we said on the last hair regrowth podcast we did with you–that was two years ago, isn't it insane how fast time moves? You want to use red light, red light skull caps, red light, Joovv, anything that gets red light. Anything that's going to increase mitochondrial optimization is also going to improve red blood cell count and flow to the area.

And look, let me just say this, again, you were the one that broke this to the world. It's so sad that not enough people still understand this, but this is completely unequivocally proven now that all hair loss is called by blood flow restriction to the scalp. Okay, it's not caused by DHT, it's not caused by this, that and the other, it's caused by blood flow restriction to the scalp which ultimately, okay, can be caused by a thousand different things: heavy metal contamination, overexposure to sun, sweating, anxiety, too much insulin, too much sugar, too much alcohol. I mean, again, it's a thousand things can cause blood flow restriction to your scalp. But, I will say this that I have androgenic alopecia. I mean, my mom's dad was bald and I would probably be bald right now, Ben. And, since I started using this product off and on when I had access to it, which has only been in the last couple of months now, the new one, Auxano ran out last year in September, I've regrown my hair. I wouldn't even have hair. I wouldn't have hair.

Ben:  Wow, that's impressive. And, I'm looking forward to seeing what results I have and potentially even trying it this Christmas to grow my annual winter lumberjack beard. Folks, if you take anything away from this podcast, don't wear tight underwear and as you've just learned, don't wear tight hats.

Jay and I have two other podcasts that I'll link to if you go to BenGreenfieldLife.com/LimitlessLife. I'll have the shownotes and I'm going to link to Jay's peptide course, to his testosterone optimization book and course, to these peptides we've been discussing. If the hair growth formula is out when this podcast comes out, I'll put a link to that and hopefully some generous discount codes for you. 

Jay, you're always just a wealth of knowledge. Of course, we only scratched the service on the dozens of different peptides out there, but hopefully, this gives people a pretty good idea of the general notion behind these peptides, how to use them, a little bit about testosterone optimization. Check out Limitless Life too if you're interested. Again, go to BenGreenfieldLife.com/LimitlessLife. I'll link to the website where some of these formulas particularly I would recommend if any of you are listening and you like to exercise, try this, this 5-amino-1MQ, it's kind of crazy how I feel on it.

Jay, thanks so much for coming. Man, you're a fast talker but you get across a lot of information and so we feed people through the fire hose. They might have to listen to this at 0.5 times speed, but thanks so much, man.

Jay:  I appreciate you, man. The only thing we didn't talk about and the reason I have so much energy is the god stack. So, the next time we do a podcast, we'll break that down.

Ben:  And, I'll link to your “God Stack” article on the shownotes because you have a pretty interesting article about these different stacks that you take. So, if people want to read ahead, check it out, BenGreenfieldLife.com/LimitlessLife. Jay, thanks so much, man.

Jay:  Thank you, my brother. I love and appreciate you.

Ben:  Alright, talk to you later.

Alright, folks. It's coming up quick, VIP event with me that occurs during the time that I am in London for the Health Optimisation Summit. I'm throwing in a private VIP meetup at HUM2N Labs with Dr. E over there. This is one of the most advanced biohacking facilities I've ever stepped foot into. We're opening up to a select group of VIPs, very small group. You could be one of them, kicks off at 5:30 p.m. in London on Monday, June 19th. You're going to get to network with me and a bunch of the other biohacking enthusiasts and physicians there. We will do a special talk on age reversal. There'll be a Q&A, a variety of healthy organic foods, biohack cocktails, a swag bag where you get to try IV, cryotherapy, red light therapy, hyperbaric oxygen, different types of nootropics and smart drugs that they have there. So, it's going to be a pretty cool event. And, you can get in now if you go to BenGreenfieldLife.com/H-U-M-2-N-London. That's BenGreenfieldLife.com/HUM2NLondon. If that's much for you to remember, just go to BenGreenfieldLife.com/Calendar and everywhere. I'm speaking where you can join me. All the events are also there on the calendar at BenGreenfieldLife.com/Calendar, but this HUM2N event Monday, June 19th is going to be a good one.

More than ever these days, people like you and me need a fresh entertaining, well-informed, and often outside-the-box approach to discovering the health, and happiness, and hope that we all crave. So, I hope I've been able to do that for you on this episode today. And, if you liked it or if you love what I'm up to, then please leave me a review on your preferred podcast listening channel wherever that might be, and just find the Ben Greenfield Life episode. Say something nice. Thanks so much. It means a lot.



Jay Campbell is a 4 times international best selling author, former men’s physique champion, and founder of the Jay Campbell brand and Podcast.

Recognized as one of the world’s leading experts on hormonal optimization and therapeutic peptides, Jay has dedicated his life to teaching Men and Women how to #FullyOptimize their health while also instilling the importance of what he calls “Raising  Consciousness” and “Raising Your Vibration To Optimize Your Love Creation!”
Jay has a fantastic, highly informative health, fitness and science blog and has also written the book Optimize Your Health with Therapeutic Peptides: Extend your Life by Becoming More Muscular, Leaner, Smarter, Injury-Free, and Younger.
During our chat, we not only describe a new, unparalleled hair growth serum, but also dive into the best way to dose testosterone, and perhaps more notably, the new Limitless Life Nootropics (use code BEN to save 15%) website where you can safely buy peptides on the internet, and Jay's peptide book, Peptide Optimization Course and Testosterone Optimization Course (waiting for link – jojo).

During this discussion, you'll discover:

Jay Campbell…05:57

-What is Jay’s background…08:40

-How Jay got into testosterone therapy…11:00

  • An ex-college pro-basketball player
  • Was kicked in the testicles in a game
    • 6-7 weeks later felt the effects 
  • Diagnosed with Type 2 Hypogonadism
    • It's not coming from the brain, it's coming from the testicles that you can't make testosterone
    • Environmental testosterone deficiency
  • Started using therapeutic testosterone and felt absolutely amazing
  • Started studying testosterone
  • Ben also had testicular injury
    • Ended up in hospital

Young men and testosterone deficiency…15:17

  • Jay just came back from AMG medical conference
  • Dr. Rudolph Eberwein did a presentation on EDCs (Endocrine-Disrupting Chemicals)
    • How bad it is today for young men due to environmental contamination
  • Estrogeneration: How Estrogenics Are Making You Fat, Sick, and Infertile by Anthony Jay
    • Shows that one out of four men between the ages of 20 and 35 have testosterone deficiency
  • Dirty electromagnetic frequencies are absolutely terrible for testosterone
    • Very difficult to escape
  • Kids have low testosterone levels due to
    • Video games
    • Lack of exercise
    • Junk food
  • Girls reaching puberty earlier or menstruating earlier
  • People are not outside grounding in nature
  • Lambs EMF blocking underwear (use code BGF15 to save 15%)
  • Snowballs icing underwear
  • Parents have to be proactive and teach kids healthy habits
  • Our society is subjected to multi-siege environmental contamination 

-The proper use of testosterone…21:16

  • Jay has been using peptides since 2004
  • Used every delivery system for testosterone
    • Injectable system – daily injections
    • Transscrotal testosterone system – micro doses (preferred)
  • Natesto nasal gel is an FDA-approved form of testosterone but with reports of headaches and other side effects
  • Some oral systems are already FDA approved but very weak
  • Different compounding pharmacies have different dosages
  • Transdermal testosterone – AndroGel 
    • 50mg per milliliter
    • Almost non-existent amount
  • Topi-Click dosing dispensers/applicators
  • Compounded 200mg per milliliter show benefits
    • Three clicks of the applicator to get 200mg per milliliter
  • If cream is used, higher doses are needed
  • First-time users will notice effects within 48 hours
    • Enhanced dopamine
    • Well being, better energy
  • Everybody's different so dosing should be different

-Why do some people recommend Clomid or some kind of aromatase inhibitor (AI) instead of therapeutic testosterone?…28:47

  • No logic behind that other than just misreading the studies or the science
  • Estrogen must not be blocked under any circumstances
  • Men need healthy levels of estrogen
    • It protects all of our biological systems
  • There's no such thing as high estrogen symptoms, there's just high inflammation and high estrogenic body fat
  • Never block estrogen when taking therapeutic testosterone 
  • The use of aromatase inhibitors (AI) are horrible to biological system health

-The availability and use of peptides…37:00

-Why are Ipamorelin and Tesamorelin stack works so well ?…44:47

-Why are bioregulators even better than peptides?…55:30

-Tanning peptides…1:00:35

  • Melanotan 1 enhances consciousness (use code BEN to save 15%)
    • Permanently changed the complexion of Jay's skin
    • Couple times a week and very micro doses
  • Melanotan 2 (use code BEN to save 15%)
  • Frank Barr, one of the leading researchers in the world on melanin
  • Ketamine – popular consciousness enhancer
  • Problems with sleep with Melanotan 2
  • PT-141 sexual enhancing peptide (use code BEN to save 15%)
    • 40% of men are non-respondent
  • Ben’s inconvenient experience with PT-141

-How long will peptides and bio-regulators be legal?…1:04:45

  • Bioregulators are supplements
    • Very low risk of being banned
  • As for peptides, Big Pharma is pissed that the compounders are “adulterating” the retail versions of the GLP-1 agonists
  • Glucagon-like peptide-1 agonists
  • All off-label compounded pharmacy peptides, not FDA approved, could be shut down
  • At the moment, there are 13 FDA approved peptides
  • The use and side-effects of GLP-1 agonist
    • Appetite suppression and weight loss
  • Dr. Peter Attia is very vocal against GLP-1 agonists because of muscle loss
  • In order to use it properly, one should
    • Eat enough protein
    • Do resistance training
    • Maintain adequate amino acid intake

-Hair growth lotion…1:12:42

  • Nick Andrews new company Entera 
  • Folitin 
  • Three to five times more effective hair re-growth agent than Auxano Grow (use code BEN15 to save 15%)
    • Peptide based
    • Completely aqueous based
    • Absorbed transdermally
  • Auxano Grow is a combination of GHK-Cu and C60
  • Red light helps
  • All hair loss is caused by blood flow restriction to the scalp
  • Jay has androgenic alopecia
  • Hair loss can be caused by many things like
    • Heavy metal contamination
    • Overexposure to the sun and sea
    • Sweating
    • Anxiety
    • Too much insulin
    • Too much sugar
    • Too much alcohol

-And much more…

Upcoming Events:

  • Health Optimisation Summit: June 17th – 18th, 2023

Join me at The Health Optimisation Summit in London! This is your chance to be part of a community of 2,500 like-minded people and learn from world-leading health speakers. You'll be able to fast-track your health journey, discover cutting-edge secrets and hacks, explore the latest tech and gadgets, and find the cleanest and healthiest supplements and nutrient-dense foods. Don't miss out on this incredible experience! Use code BENGREENFIELD for 10% off regular and VIP tickets. Learn more here.

Don’t miss this incredible opportunity to learn from the best in the field and take your biohacking journey to the next level. You’ll get the chance to be involved with a private network of biohackers, a live discussion with myself and Dr. E, a live Q&A, an experiential biohacking experience, tasty food, and a chance to win some mind-blowing prizes! Learn more here.

Resources from this episode:

– Podcasts:

– Books:

– Other Resources:

Episode Sponsors:

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Boundless Parenting Audiobook: Everything you need to know about family, parenting, and raising healthy, resilient, free-thinking and impactful children is now available as an audiobook. Go to boundlessparentingbook.com to learn more or order a hardcopy.  

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