[07:45:00] What are peptides
[14:20:00] Peptides used for anti-aging protocol
[21:05:00] Peptides for an anti-aging protocol
[45:15:00] Peptide to help with SIBO and gut stability
[50:37:00] Dosage recommendations for LL37
[52:00:00] Proper use of peptides
[58:45:00] Peptide protocols for hair loss
[01:05:25] Peptide stacks that are good for memory and cognition
[01:12:05] Facts about ghrelin, GHS-R1a and GHS-R1b
[01:24:41] Closing the podcast
[01:25:57] End of podcast
Ben: On this episode of the Ben Greenfield Fitness podcast
William: What's changed is we can synthesize these peptides and hold them in the blood system. So they're not degraded and we can do our signaling we need to do. A muscle doesn't get bigger by just sitting around a muscle has to be stressed to utilize oxygen better a cell needs to be stressed every day to be functional. We're attacking all the pathways. We know what causes it. So why not go after the root cause, if you can go after the root cause you can correct that everything.
Ben: Health performance, nutrition, longevity, ancestral living, biohacking and much more. My name is Ben Greenfield. Welcome to the show.
All right, you've been waiting for it, and I'm delivering today, peptides.
You guys [00:01:00] asked me a lot of questions about peptides, and I'm very excited about today's episode, because we take a deep dive into all things peptides. If you don't know peptides are, you're going to know after today's show and it's a good one, trust me very excited about this one, in case you can't tell this podcast is brought to you by Kion, my company at Kion it's like a playground. I can travel around the world talking all these brilliant people, podcasting with all these researchers and physicians and scientists and I can turn around to my team at Kion and we produce amazing supplements, formulations. Your mind is going to be blown, by some of the new stuff we are rolling out and our existing sweet from immune system enhancement, to gut supports, to fat loss.
It's all there at Kion our core. Sweet of supplements right now. If you were to just have those alone in your pantry, you would be operating at peak efficiency, and we are highly committed to quality for our bars, [00:02:00] for our coffee, for our supplements, everything there, you can guilt-free use, because I vouch for this is the same stuff I use every day and I'm incredibly proud of what we've produced at Kion and we're going to continue to produce amazing products that supplements for you.
So if you want to get on the Kion bandwagon, if you want to join the team, join, the tribe get access to all articles or ebooks all our amazing products, everything else. Just go to get Kion.com, get K-I-O-N.com. I've got a 10% discount code for you that works site-wide and it's BEN10 that's BEN10 at get Kion.com.
This podcast, is also brought to you by an equally amazing company devoted to supreme quality in their products. They make some of the best tasting, the best tasting super food powders in existence. I was actually just over at the home of the founder of this company last night, this guy practices what he preaches Drew Canole.
He is into sound healing, and gardening, and positive emotions and extremely organic, certified organic. You won't find anything in his own home or pantry refrigerator because I pay attention to these things, if people are actually walking the walk, and talking the talk, he is and I mean, you take his red juice for example, the Organifi red juice, you put a couple of scoops of this thing or if you're like me six scoops in the like a Nalgene bottle shake it up with some really good clean filtered water or if you really want a full meal like some coconut milk or almond milk, chill it for a little while, and in that bottle you have what you would pay. Well, if you put six scoops probably $30.00 for at the your local fancy juicery and it's like pennies on the dollar and it's beetroot and Cordyceps and Rishi and all these different super antioxidant berries.
They've got a green juice. They've got a gold juice. So the only problem is that Drew has commanded me that I cannot tell you about [00:04:00] Organifi without my rollicking Italian accent. So here we go. To get the 20% off on all Organifi products you go to Organifi. It's Organifi with an “I” dot com/ben, and you use code BENG20, BENG20 at organifi.com/ben, and now that I have completely lost all my Italian listeners my apologies, we can go talk to Dr.William Seeds and, his sidekick Jeremy Delk for today's show but, do check out Organifi and Kion. All right. Talk to you guys later.
Ben: Hey folks it’s Ben Greenfield and I have actually released a podcast episode of, pretty big one about peptides a few months ago. But I still get tons of questions about these little molecules. Like what's the best way to store [00:05:00] peptides and for how long are they stable? What's the best most updated anti-aging peptides stack?
What's the best cognition enhancing peptide stack, could peptides be used for things like a hair loss. For example, that's one interesting one. I get a lot. I also recently discovered, a peptide that can stop gas and bloating in its tracks, especially in people. With issues like SIBO for example, so I decided we should revisit peptides on today's show and I have not one, but two guests because I'm just an overachiever.
So my first guest you may have heard of before, because I've talked about a product that he has called, Dr. Seed’s BPC 157. It's one of the only oral forms of BPC 157 out there, but Dr. William Seeds is a leading researcher, and educator in the field of peptides. He's actually board certified in orthopedic surgeries, sports medicine but also anti-aging and regenerative medicine. He's kind of known as the go-to guy in peptide medicine. He teaches this [00:06:00] to other physicians and he is a wealth of knowledge. So we're very lucky to have him on the show and then my other guest Jeremy Delk, is kind of more in the business side of peptide. You may have heard of Taylor Made Compounding, which is the source view which I get the majority of my peptides typically under the supervision of a physician who prescribes them for me from Taylor Made Compounding and Jeremy is in charge of that company as well as something called Delk Enterprises, which is kind of a private equity portfolio that includes equity holdings and things like animal health and sports medicine human health care and pharmacy.
So he's kind of a little bit more in the on the business side of things. But of course can also speak pretty intelligently in the realm of peptides. So with both these bad boys on the call, we ought to be able to learn a whole lot of peptides so welcome to the show guys.
William: Thank you.
Jeremy: Thank you Ben.
Ben: Yeah. So the deep booming voice you hear there is Dr. Seeds and the other, well not [00:07:00] to make your voice sound effeminate, or not masculine left Jeremy, but Dr. Seeds certainly came through, as a deep booming voice, so that's how you can tell apart folks. So anyways, guys we have like I mentioned, done a show on peptides before and on the show notes for this show, which anybody listening in right now can access over at Ben Greenfield fitness.com/all things peptides.
You can access that previous show that we did, but based on that. I don't want to spend a lot of time just delving into you know, the science of peptides. However, I think a basic overview would be good for people aren't going to drop everything and go listen to that previous show right now so I can, you guys fill me in, on just the basic overview of what a peptide actually is.
William: Well I, Jeremy I'm going to just jump in right now and thank you Ben for [00:08:00] having, both of us on your show and hopefully to in you've got some very smart listeners. I've listed to a multitude of podcasts you've had, and I'm really impressed with the depth, and the way you go at this, and I've got to appreciate the fact that your audience is very smart in this process, and I don't want to waste my time on little things, but the basic premise of a peptide is it's a naturally, signaling agent that's made up of amino acids, and sequences and chains, or encyclical type of helical structures that we use to kind of reproduce what the body already knows how to, what to do in signaling neurotransmitters, hormones enzymes, what to do in cases of really cellular mechanisms, of homeostasis of trying to maintain a state of neutrality, in a cell and [00:09:00] really the amazing thing now, is that we can do this, we can find the pathways involved in cellular progression, in degeneration and we can change that by isolating the signaling agents that may not be working and we can mimic that physiologically with a peptide that induces that signaling agent and that changes the game. I mean, we're doing something that's natural that the body sees.
I mean as I think is you really realize, I believe you realize the body is intelligent the cell is intelligent, we're just giving its capability to show us how intelligent is, and this is why we're seeing this transformation and I mean the neurodegenerative disease diabetes, autoimmune disease, injuries, it's changed the face of what we can do, and it's exciting.
So I think that's [00:10:00] just a nice little beginning of just understanding we're really not doing anything and discovering anything. That's do, we know all of these peptides now, we have the ability to synthesize them, reproduce them, and utilize them, so the body can say, thank you help me out. Here we go.
Ben: So why is it that you think peptides have all of a sudden exploded? I mean these things have existed to my understanding, you know, for example in Russian Sports Performance medicine, etc. for some time. But why are we just now kind of becoming aware of them particularly in the U.S. It seems like they've caught on like wildfire.
William: Well Ben, we've known about I mean insulin is a peptide, we've been using it since the 1920s. So we really have a depth of knowledge of being able to use peptides, when we used insulin. We were using an extract. So it was the body could use it and utilize it. What's changed is, we can in the body [00:11:00] recognizes these peptides and it breaks it down and somatically hydrolysis.
It breaks it down really quickly. What's changed, is we can synthesize these peptides and hold them, you know 15, 20 minutes, 30 minutes in the blood system. So they're not degraded and we can do our signaling we need to do, and that's what's changed. It's been dramatic. I mean being able to now control that time frame that we can hold that peptide because the body is going to break it down.
And if it's produced in the body of you can imagine, you know, a peptide may be produced in the mitochondria of a cell to take care of something in the nucleus. Well, it needs seconds to make it and needs seconds for it to happen. If we're going to induce something and exogenously. We need a little time.
We need 15, 20, 30 minutes to get that peptide to the mitochondria to do its job. So that's what's changed
Jeremy: If I could echo one that just a little bit as well. I mean, there's definitely a commercial component to it as well Ben, you know [00:12:00] with a lot of these. I mean some of these studies you mentioned some of the Russian peptides and things Russian studies some of them going back.
You know tens, and tens of years ago, that constitutes prior art. So while these studies are very exciting very relevant when you try to go down a trishul commercialization path of FDA approval, or what have you which right now a lot ___. There's more peptides in development than a lot of small molecules.
But a lot of prior art has been. Already been disclosed. So there's no IP protection. So the commercial path of you know, 10 years and several billion dollars to get some market, you know, there's not a lot of pharmaceutical companies at all that would risk that money when it's not actually able to be protected.
So that's the other component where these think of like orphan drug status. However, this is a much, larger serve population that could benefit from it then an orphan drug, but it's a lot from IP and the investment that goes through it and I think that's where with development of sequencing and better sourcing of these materials [00:13:00] and that's why I think most anyone that's doing this the right way is through pharmacies or something.
That's all on a patient's we serve basis from physicians under their care. I think that's another component to it. Why you see there's companies that are out there. That are completely taking old-time molecules and adding on different molecules to the back of it to be able to try and garner some IP protection all the while may not be as effective as the original source peptide.
So I think one's hand definitely consumer in an education standpoint with especially with what about the Dr. Seeds does through his work but you know the actual commercial component of it as well definitely plays a part in to all
Ben: Alright, so, you know when it comes to peptides I think probably one of the realms that gets talked about the most these days is the whole anti-aging sector or like I've mentioned peptides like Humana in and Matze.
There's no one called FOXO4 that I know [00:14:00] is used for this specific purpose. But what I would love to hear is a little bit more about how these things would actually be working now, I want to get into the best peptide stacks for anti-aging as well. But from what I understand a big part of it has.
Do a cellular senescence and autophagy and can you perhaps this is a good question for Dr. Seeds. Can you kind of give me a background on how peptides could be used in an anti-aging protocol and then we can kind of delve into the specific peptides that would be best in terms of some kind of an anti-aging stack.
William: You hit it on the head. This is I think this will bring everything to fruition and in your audience and yourself understanding that, that's exactly right. Aging is really a disease, aging is the number one risk factor for everything, cardiac problems, autoimmune problems, osteoporosis, and cancer. It's the number one [00:15:00] risk factor for everything and we've kind of come to a time frame here, where we've understood that you know, this the cell is so smart when a cell is under stress.
It's able to have certain receptors in the nucleus and mitochondria that will recognize something isn't right. Whether it's a bacterial infection, whether it's stress from work whether it’s environmental. Any stressor the cell has different receptors to be able to pick those factors up and what the cell can do is it can ramp up, and organize itself so it can take on this adaptive stress, and I always like to relate it to people lifting weights, or trying to enhance muscle, you know, a muscle doesn't get bigger by just sitting around, a muscle has to be stressed, to improve its [00:16:00] metabolic function and hyperplasia. All those things to be, to utilize oxygen better. Well, it's no different with a cell needs to be stressed every day to be functional. What happens is you have this thing, we call it allostatic load, where you've got a multitude of stressors, or it could be viral, bacterial, it could be just things individually where it's a big player, but it'll come after a cell.
And that cell kind of reaches a point where it says, okay, I have to stop right now and assess how I can handle this. So what the cell does, is it goes into what we call a senescent state where it stops dividing. It's all about the cell cycle and, it holds itself in place and it uses a multitude of pathways to evaluate.
Does it need to correct DNA problems? Does it need to correct protein folding problems? Does it need to correct mitochondrial signaling to the nucleus [00:17:00] and we know, we're learning and know a lot of these pathways already in cellular senescence, and so what happens is, we have the cell gets to a point of where, it may not be able to handle all of that signaling, and then it stays in a true senescent state, not pre-senescent, but true senescent state, where all those sudden changes its phenotype, phenotype meaning, the cell was genetically supposed to do this, now all of a sudden because it stopped and evaluated itself.
It says okay, I can't handle this, and then what happens is, it starts producing Cytokines, and Chemokines, and protease has that are pro-inflammatory to a cell and what happens, is that changes the whole makeup now of not even that cell but what that cell can do to affect neighboring cells and stem cells and that happens every day, but our [00:18:00] body is able to produce.
We have an amazing immune system that can go and recognize these senescent cells. It can go in and take them away and we're done with it. Well, imagine if we start getting an imbalance of that. You know, we're superseded with a pretty bad infection or let's just talk about aging, where senescent slowly builds over time, and we build more senescent cells the body becomes less able to handle those things.
And that's really the essence of a progression of cell senescence, and cell senescence there by kind of rules and governs. How the body is going to move forward and this is where depending on where the cells go bad. This is why you have atherosclerosis or you have kidney disease or you have neurodegenerative disease in the brain.
It's because that's where the locality of those senescent cells is the greatest and the body can't handle them. So, [00:19:00] hence, we have these amazing peptide signaling agents where we can go in and say, okay. We know the mechanism of cellular senescence. And we can get very specific about going to transcription factors of the nucleus that make Nuclear Factor Kappa Beta that start the transcription of interleukin-1 beta and all these bad things that start to make cells go bad.
Well, we can regulate that and stop that or we can up regulate the immune system to come in and take care of more senescent cells or we can do both at the same time or you mentioned autophagy. We can do things with peptides where we can up regulate autophagy, and autophagy is really just a word that means time to do some housecleaning the cell that's what the cell basically does when it goes into a pre-senescent state it kind of it before it gets senescent.
It takes that time to clean house, you know to clean up the [00:20:00] bad folded proteins or the nuclear signaling agents that are just awry. It has time to do that and that's what we call autophagy where it just cleans things up and then lets the cell go back into action. So we have peptides where we can up regulate autophagy.
So imagine if you can attack cellular senescence. Improve cellular immunity and improve autophagy. I mean then then you've got some magic going on and that's what makes this. So exciting.
Ben: Yeah, talked in the past about some natural methods to improve cellular senescence. Probably the most powerful of which would be some form of caloric restriction or intermittent fasting and I know there are some natural nutrients as well such as tocotrienols, a form of vitamin E and you know _______.
Another that I know can help out as a so-called _______ a little bit. But what I understand these peptides are particularly powerful at that one-two combo of [00:21:00] inducing autophagy and cellular senescence simultaneously, so when it comes to peptides that would actually allow for this to occur.
What are some of the ones that you think people should be looking into?
William: Well, I mean there is still this opens all you know. This is where it gets specific it can get more specific and you can tailor this to the patient, depending on their age depending on their issues or, if you're trying to you know, the ultimate scenario is to start before all this gets bad and start and protect the body because really we're talking about Saito protection, Organo protection.
We're trying to delay the process of this occurring. So you brought up like intermittent fasting nutritional caloric restriction, you know those set have set the premise with exercise on understanding that well. If I think it's best to kind of [00:22:00] understand the cell when it's either it's like a seesaw.
You've got this thing called AMPK and you've got this thing called mTOR, AMPK is all about turning the cell on, and giving it energy. And that's kind of what nutritional calorie restriction, intermittent fasting. It turns on AMPK because it has this ability to stop mTOR for a while, and turn on all these things that are important for a top itchy and improving the ability of the cell to utilize oxygen and make ATP and make it efficient for the mitochondria.
That's basically what that's doing. Well, you also need mTOR to build the cell back up. And what happens is there's a balance there that you lose, and the mTOR in it, is really in a senescence cell which it just goes crazy and continues and continues if mTOR [00:23:00] is going all the time. You can never have autophagy.
You can never clean anything up. So that's why this intermittent fasting and calorie restriction can be so valuable and can add to the value of using peptides which are doing, things to an even greater degree. So you ask what kind of peptides well now there's a lot of things there's a lot of ways you could go about this but, I think just to bring to light, you had brought up a MOTS-c as a peptide, earlier you guys had discussed that well, MOTS-c is a is one of these newer peptides that we've identified and actually, in full disclosure, I brought this out about a year ago, in bringing this to the community and discussing this from the research side and that this would be available soon for us, you know to start utilizing and MOTS-c is really a Magic Bullet for autophagy and, it's something that is more specific it what it does is it corrects metabolic imbalances, and it works to really improve the metabolic flexibility of muscle, and so in a way, it's an incredible exercise mimetic because what you're doing is you're just improving the utilization of glucose, you're improving insulin sensitivity and your energy utilization.
I mean, when a cell starts going bad things like cell senescence and autophagy aren't working, it has to start relying on other utilization of substrates because it can't use __________ well, it’s trying to use fatty acids, but that mechanism has to be efficient to make it work. So what it does is it starts using these other metabolism stick things we know in the cell like spindle lipid metabolism and model alcohol glycerol metabolism, and di-carboxylic acid metabolism.
These [00:25:00] things really are the big players of why people get insulin dependent diabetes. And why cells don't function well MOTS-c affects every one of those metabolism pathways. It corrects every one of those and what's really interesting Ben, is that we learned. From octogenarians a subset of people from Japan had this RNA this mitochondrial RNA specific to the octogenarians where they were making MOTS-c into their hundreds, and what happens as we age we all can produce MOTS-c , but as we age if you do not have that that polymorphism to where you can continue to produce MOTS-c .
You lose the ability to produce MOTS-c just like all the other things with aging, you know, losing the ability to produce growth hormone and IGF-1 and all of these things and NAD, you know, [00:26:00] NAD pulls all these things that are so important to cellular efficiency so we can now take this mod SC and introduce it to where we can change.
The metabolism of the cell and make it efficient and correct it and at the same time improve the metabolic flexibility that the muscle is long.
Ben: And by the way, just in case people are wondering that MOTS-c is MOTS-c if you want to look it up and also from what I understand Dr. Seeds, this is not something you would need to take every day year-round.
Correct as with many peptides like Epitalon which I talked about in the last peptides podcast, you know, it's a brief 10 to 20 day protocol done a couple of times a year with MOTS-c , I believe if I remember correctly. It's just like a milligram for 10 weeks in a row once a week or something like that, right?
William: It depends on the state. Let's say somebody's healthy [00:27:00] and they just want to stay there. They want to control, and moderate that metabolism, so everything is functioning at its highest, and they want to improve their exercise capacity of the cell. Then that's basically something where you would use 10 milligrams, and you'd use it once a week if we have, and that's a subcutaneous injection, and what you need to know about MOTS-c.
It is very fragile. It needs to be kept in a dark space in a refrigerator. And once you reconstitute it, you've got four hours to use it or less or it's no good anymore.
Ben: Yeah, so it cut it comes in a powder. You have your bacteriostatic water and then like right before you would inject like a like a 10 milligram vial of it.
You'd add a milliliter bacteriostatic water then just use an insulin syringe to inject that for example subcutaneously around the abdomen, right?
William: That is correct. And you want to let it sit for about five minutes just to let you know let it completely [00:28:00] dissolve in solution, but that's exactly correct.
And it's. Go ahead.
Jeremy: If I could saint that PCI me I would point, you know some point last podcast. You're talking a little bit about stability. I mean MOTS-c. Yes MOTS-c is very, you know, it's license it is and it will start to break down after about four hours, you know, once it reconstitutes, I think that five minute window is good, but you wouldn't want to be kind of going much longer than that.
If I understood, I know we had a couple of doctors that we can't work with and they talked about. I think its newer theories on human and MOTS – c, I'd love to get your comments on our show the audience would appreciate it as well, of some of them having a theory that some of it could actually exacerbate the you know, the breakdown of SASS and they senescent cells. Have you seen you that literature or that theory that kind of those message boards are if anything our colleagues about kind of breaking down the secretion of IL-6 and [00:29:00] IL -1B, IL -8 that kind of thing.
William: Well, there's actually there's a couple thoughts with that.
So your talk is so if you're improving autophagy, you're actually giving the cell the ability to self-check, and kind of stopped that Nuclear Factor Kappa Beta transcription of the nucleus that leads to interleukin-1, interleukin 6, tumor necrosis Factor Alpha, all these things that cause that senescent aspect of the cell, but what's really interesting is that MOTS-c works in down regulating what we call GSK 3 and this is a really it's glycogen synthase kinase three, and it's a very specific to inflammatory processes in a cell, and if you can control this GSK 3 beta activation you control a tremendous [00:30:00] amount of disease processes in a cell, and that is I mean, that's really where the magic is and I think you know that there are specific we could go down all the pathways of controlling senescence.
But on the other side of this you have to be very careful and this has to do with things like NAD. Also if you're using NAD with senescent cells depending on the state of the senescent cell MOTS-c may not be the thing you want to use right off the bat if how sick somebody is because you got to control the cell senescence.
Sometimes these activators can up regulates cell senescence. And I know that, that's contradictory, but., it’s really the art of understanding that if somebody's really sick, you have to attack cell senescence first with other autoimmune issues using, you know, like TA1, TB4 [00:31:00] things to go after that senescence cell from the immune side and using things like potentially GLP-1 receptor agonist like Liraglutide those type of things that you can go and improve a topology why you're improving senescence.
And then you can come back later with the MOTS-c to up regulate the efficiency of the cell because if you do it too soon, and I know this because I've been there you can make things go south pretty quickly.
Ben: Now when you say somebody is very who's sick. What do you mean?
William: Who so, when I say sick, I mean, they've got a serious autoimmune disease that's really taken them down or serious TBI or degenerative disease where I know they have a lot of senescent cells that are active.
That's kind of that's how I look at disease. I look at disease as cells that are senescent and how significant they are, because really Ben, that [00:32:00] what you need to what everybody needs to understand is these senescent cells. We have the perfect system to correct our cellular imbalance of problems. Right?
We have this ability to improve stem cells that are already there, you know you hear about people injecting some cells in their body. What about the stem cells we have that are already in our body ready to do the work? Well, it's the senescent cells that camp that down, if we can control that cells in essence.
We've got all our stem cells working for us in muscle, around and ethereal cells in the heart. We in the brain, we can improve this, and so then coming in on that aspect of directive to senescent cells, you brought up Fox 4, Fox 40. Is a peptide specific?
Ben: Is this is a FOX, FOX 40 or FOXO4?
Jeremy: FOXO4 DRI
William: Yeah, and DRI, just has to do with the [00:33:00] D rotational element of were, synthetically making this FOXO4 peptide because we're going to, we're going to trick this thing called p53 that's in the nucleus. We're going to pull it out of the nucleus, and then the cell goes right into apoptosis and its specific, to jest senescent cells, it sell directive, and that's how efficient and precision like we're getting with these peptides.
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Finally. I am not lying to you right now while I am recording this podcast. I have just slipped out sultry, and gracefully [00:35:00] of my Birdwell Beach Britches because I was in the San Diego ocean, and my Birdwell Beach birches are really the only things I wear when I'm at the beach, because they just work and because I'm probably like Steve Jobs, jobs, jobs.
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William: so humanity is another mitochondrial [00:37:00] Drive peptide it's in the same category as MOTS-c it's another.
So what happens is the cells going bad? It's got the senescence affecting it, and the nucleus sends a signal to the mitochondria saying guys, I'm in trouble, help me out. So the mitochondria produces these mitochondria dry peptides in Humanin is another one, another mitochondrial peptide, that is very, very specific, for also attacking aspects of what MOTS-c does not to the level of MOTS-c .
It has some really other cool things of where it can take badly folded proteins and improve the autophagy, that removing those, unfolded proteins. It has to do with chaperones. And these this thing called Lamp. Lamp to which is a ligand on a lysosome, and so what it's just basically cleaning up bad proteins and removing them [00:38:00] so Humanin has that ability, to really help with controlling that, and also it helps with premature cellular apoptosis, because when things go bad, there is sometimes cells prematurely just go through a process of where they die, and you don't want that and this Humanin, has ability to stop, it can attach itself to this thing we call, it's a backs protein and it would it basically stopped is a pop Pathak process.
In the cell, and so if we know that we've got some really interesting ways of, so this peptide not only works in that fashion. It works in the brain. It works on if you can imagine when a blood vessel like atherosclerosis, when things are going bad, what's really happening is, there is this process that scruple like protein, to it's a protein that has an [00:39:00] effect on ________, and an effect on endothelium one in a cell and basically what it's doing, is it's making that vessel stiffer and it's promoting the probability of atherosclerosis. Well Humanin, can go right in and up regulate this crumpled like factor 2, and what happens we know that people, you know, if you have too much glucose if you're if you're in a diabetic state, that decreases this crumpled like peptide, this signaling so, Humanin can go in and affect that, it can also go to the brain which is just that another amazing process of where you know, everybody's heard about plaques and the build-up of plaques in the brain. Well Humanin actually, can go after these things called, there FP R L1 proteins that are, are basically functional receptors that are part of amyloid beta this conglomerate of amyloid beta is like a [00:40:00] it's a peptide actually, that builds up in the brain and causes neurodegenerative disease. It's what it's what all the research has been, focused on that and Tau type of proteins well, these signaling agents are receptors can be inhibited directly by Humanin and it can stop that process.
So you can not only work on autophagy with these other ones, you can stack Humanin, and you can actually go in and attack specific receptor responses, and I just can't you know, it's just fascinating where we can go, when we start understanding the process of how, these peptides can be so powerful if you understand the pathways and you understand this fact of you know, just what I talked about vascular disease.
I mean, you can improve ischemia and reperfusion, based on the knowledge of mitochondrial dysfunction [00:41:00] and the issues that happened with not being able to make human. Because Humanin has that direct effect on the vessel.
Ben: So with with Humanin and FOXO4, is a similar to Matze, where you would just do like a subcutaneous injection for certain times during the year?
William: Yeah. So the Humanin is a little more complicated. It's we're actually in the process of just starting some, you know, the International Peptide Society. We have a few IRB he's going right now and this Humanin is another IRB, we're going to be starting. To really hone in on the correct dosing because it can be used nasally as a spray, and it can be used subcutaneously, and we're kind of working those doses out right now. So I'd be a little hesitant to really jump on that, but it's we're going to I think we're going to have, some really amazing data coming out with this.
Jeremy: But Dr. Seeds, just on a, the like kind of a follow-up the dosing question. It may be more like a maybe the stacking like I know you know, and I've been I'm sure [00:42:00] a big part of your audience a lot of people suggest like running a cycle of like Rapamycin or something after the use of a mitochondrial peptide, would there or could there be, ideally maybe some sort of peptide protocol that would alternate, you know FOXO4 DRI and either MOTS-C or Humanin.
To kind of help clear the senescent cells like would that be, so that to look at.
William: Yeah, so if you're looking in that process, and you brought up you brought up Rapamycin, you know, Rapamycin is actually something, if we use it in really low doses, like 1 milligram to 2 milligrams that is actually something where we can control, mTOR for a short period of time and we can turn it off.
Because it only affects one part of mTOR, which is the MTOR C1, which is the Richter, and we're not going to affect the other part of MTOR. So you're actually just going to turn off mTOR for a period of time. So you can improve [00:43:00] this cells ability to go back into autophagy, and you're giving it's kind of like you're slowing down that process of a cell going into senescent.
So that's another way. So if you're using MOTS-c at the beginning of the week, let's say are you let's say you're trying to devise a stack like this and you've got somebody who's healthy and you're using my Odyssey at the at the beginning of the week. Will then you may use the mTOR inhibitor toward the end of the week.
You want to space them out the, FOXO4 or like liraglutide, which I really like is autophagy type of, peptide, you can, you do have to kind of space them a little bit because you want to understand what mechanisms you're improving, and what mechanisms you're trying to slow down. So let's say this.
Let me just give you a broad example of, I've got somebody that maybe is like [00:44:00] like Ben who is dealing with Giardia right now, and I know with
Ben: And we're talking about that, before the call. I'm clenching during this entire podcast, because I was at a wilderness survival course over the past three days, and came back with apparently that that homemade sand and charcoal based water filter, it use didn't quite do the trick.
William: Ben, I shouldn’t have disclosed that, shouldn’t?
Ben: I don't know
William: That was my fault.
Ben: There's a visual for folks.
William: I'm sorry, but it's a great example of you know, you've all of a sudden you've got this influx, and you've got this, you've got something where the cells are there, your body's focused on this right now and, it's trying to deal with this process and, you've got cells trying to go into more of a senescent phase, and produce more, because inflammatory agents are good sometimes right? because they're going after the cells that the Giardia has [00:45:00] affected.
So in a way your body is trying to get rid of it by creating senescence. It's trying to actually get rid of it. So it can work to your favor to have that stuff happen to in the beginning, so you can do things to up regulate and help that you talked about LL 37. LL 37 is an amazing peptide if you know how to use it and what I say by that is it's an antimicrobial peptide
Ben: and just to back up for a second LL 37, our mutual friend who has the show a Super Human Radio, Carl Lanore, first told me about LL 37 when I told him that I was exploring different ways to eradicate SIBO and gas/bloating as a peptide that could be used, for some pretty noticeable gut stability and immune function. I got my hands on some and I've only been using it for the past really, the past week or so. Fortunately it there's even a little bit of literature. I found that that [00:46:00] indicates it may have some effect on parasitic activity as well. So I'm fortunate to have some on hand at the time but just a quick background on LL 37 for folks, it's a new one, I haven't talked about on the show before but seems particularly useful for the gut.
William: Well, and that's, I think and I think this is where we could just take a couple minutes to just to really put this in a good understanding of how this peptide can be very powerful. But also how it can be the wrong thing to use and, I'll elaborate on that and yeah, that's interesting. You talked about Carl, I introduced that the Carl so that but Carl is like, you know Carl. I mean, he goes to the extreme of using some of these things in self utilizing peptides to you know, to where he is the I would call Carl like the ultimate Lab Rat
Ben: and yeah, you just beginning taking things to the next level.
William: He did. He [00:47:00] absolutely does, but he I mean, he's helped a lot of people just like you have, with what you've brought to light and, what'd you bring for your listeners. But so I think just one understanding to have, if we look at the gut, the gut is something that can go incredibly well or incredibly wrong and, I think the basic understanding and premise of a gut, is to know that the gut only works if we have all of these bugs these bacteria.
That our normal bacteria, that we should all have working for us. There are thousands of species of bacteria, but an individual usually carries around like a hundred twenty six different species and, everybody has different species in their bowels, but they all kind of do the similar thing for that person based on their genetic makeup in and other phenotypical changes that occur, but the bottom line is you've got these bacteria [00:48:00] that if you're feeding the gut the right nutrients, you know fiber and low carbohydrate medium carbohydrate not saturated fats, you're just you know, you're giving the body what it needs those microbes make these things called short-chain fatty. And these short chain fatty acids are usually butyric acid, acetate and proprionic acid really? It's the butyric acid that are the butyrate fatty acid, that is what the cell, the intestinal cell 80% of its energy comes from what that might occur with that bacteria makes, so it makes that cell healthy, and it enables it to produce the mucus and, all of the things and you know have the barriers of the cells, tight it enables it, to do what it's supposed to do.
So if you have an infection, or you and what [00:49:00] people may not know is, when that cell is healthy and that butyric acid is working. It causes the cell to make its own antimicrobial which is LL 37, and LL 37 sits in the colon and, it helps attack the wrong bacteria. And what happens is, you have let's say, you eat the wrong diet or you get an infection, like what you're dealing with right now, you're those, colonic cells are up regulating LL 37 trying to deal with the bacteria or parasite and, there the bacteria can't produce as much _____ acid, so LL 37 production goes down. So you're in a great place to use a low 37 to fight this bacterial infection at the same or person to convection at the same time while you're proved or you know, you're using more starch resistant [00:50:00] oligosaccharides things like that, to make everything work, right? To cure the colon. So what you're doing, is you're improving, you're not changing the microflora in the bowels that are that are creating the bloating in the gas and, all the things that happen. You're giving your body the ability to, okay know what to do what's take care of it? And that's why we tell people you know for something you're trying to fight off right now, it would be probably like a four to six week time frame. Like a hundred milligrams of LL 37 in the morning and LL 3,700 milligrams at night. Yeah,
Ben: Yeah and, it should be noted, by the way. You know even in the absence of thing like Giardia or parasitic infection, which I'm fighting right now in a lot of folks, they tend to get like a pretty intense like die off or Herxheimer Reaction when they begin using this stuff and almost flu-like symptoms for a couple of days so it can be something that folks need to be forewarned about before they launch into this that it could be pretty uncomfortable from the [00:51:00] get-go, especially if you have something like a small intestine bacterial or small intestinal fungal overgrowth.
William: Yes, and you brought, that's really a brilliant point you brought up there Ben, so that you're talking about in some people that have like SIBO type of issues where there really overridden with a change in bacteria that can happen initially and, that's something that you know, and that's why you work with a physician and you work with these things so that you aren't getting yourself into trouble or thinking. Oh, I went the wrong way. Actually what you're doing is that's telling you you're on the right track.
Ben: Yeah, that's actually something I wanted to backpedal and ask you about because you mentioned the International Peptide Society and you know many people will go, you know to website so they'll look up like peptide scientist or peptide warehouse or some other fringe website try to order this stuff themselves and piece together their own protocol in my opinion.
These are powerful compounds that should be [00:52:00] utilized under the supervision of a physician, especially when it comes to some of these, aging stacks or the use of LL 37 or anything like that, and I know a lot of people listening in, they might be scratching their heads and wondering well, how do I actually connect with a doctor who knows their way around this stuff and has been educated properly, you know, if someone's actually trying to find a physician who will work with them on a peptide stack.
Is there any best practices for hunting down the right person?
Jeremy: let me before doctor see, if I could jump in because you just open like a huge Pandora's Box like a hot button for me. I mean, I think that's the, we work a little bit with the IPS and peptide society and, I've even increased our involvement here late last year was with them because we believe so much and you know best practices, in my former life, I was in the cell space. I suppose drives some cells and what have you and I really saw, how that industry went the wrong way by not having any self-governing body or, how things were [00:53:00] actually, you know, it was never a Panacea but shouldn't be marked as a Panacea and I think we see that same thing with extrapolated literature and things that are coming through and then served out on the internet for.
You know people that really kind of causes it a tremendous amount of concern, you know, we get a ton of backlash from are not a ton but realistic let number of backlash from our patients because, Dr. Seeds is obviously a [53.26] ______, leader in this space and always on the cutting edge. So we talked about these new peptides new stacked in formulations, and there's a conference next month that Dr. Seeds is doing and, he'll talk about new peptides that won't be available anywhere and doctors get really frustrated. And I think that's from what our perspective is and how much work goes into it. Bart, the protocols then the labs and the follow-up in the physician oversight just to be able to ensure that what you're going to be able to be able to assure the [00:54:00] physician what they're going to be getting is a huge component every new molecule revenue peptide that we've got to take on we're regulated by obviously Pharmacy boards and the FDA.
It's around 30 and 50 thousand dollars per product.
To be able to get stability, and mass specs in each PLC to make sure that what's in that file or that reconstitute solution is what it is and, we have to be able to track and do that. So that's the real scary part and that's why we really, you know, love guys like you that really trying to get the message out there from an education standpoint that the importance of quality accuracy and physician oversight having a team is so important. Otherwise you'd have, you don't know what you're putting in your body. So I'm sorry a hijack that question Dr. Seeds. I'd love to have your piece on it. But definitely a hot button for us on how important that that component of it is.
William: Yeah, and well, I think you hit it on the head but the IPS is specifically so we [00:55:00] you know, we I've just been fortunate to be able to have the ability and get the resources to get it started and actually we've grown into, we're over five 600 physicians now and medical care providers on top of that where we've built a pretty strong group of people that you know, what were the only were the only certified peptide society where we certify and we also have a fellowship program. I mean, we're really, teaching doctors that know how to utilize these protocols know these pathways but also understand the importance of you know, we set up the IPS also to be this a governing body to so the doctors could feel comfortable knowing that hey if I get this peptide, how do I know it's coming from a reputable source, and so we actually have a way that we evaluate compounding pharmacies if they want to become part of IPS.
[00:56:00] If they can show us the certification, you know that they can show us that the peptides have, you know, the potency they're supposed to be the there's they they've gone through the antimicrobial evaluation, you know that they are what they are because you need a peptides that that's. 99.99%, 99.98% pure or its or you're in the wrong place and that kind
Ben: So somebody goes to something like the International Peptide Society is there like a directory of practitioners there?
William: What we ask people to do is we ask them to send in, we have Kelly at the interest but that society that we have physicians in every state and so we'll get people like that that will send in an email. And we can find them a provider in their state that is that it has been certified or gone through or as a member of our IPS. And that's how we get. That's how [00:57:00] we get people hooked up.
Jeremy: The importance of working with the physician is so crucial because of the positions are not going to be you know, they'd have their oath and what they're going to do but Michael Powell put a New York Times article out last, I think last March or April and it was basically the vast background of you know Sports doping in this was done from this Switzerland, Switzerland anti-doping organization and they ran tests on I think 200 different websites us and foreign.
And the agency put out in this, in Mike's New York Times article that over 80% of peptides advertise on the web or other unadulterated or just outright fakes. So 80% not a good percentage and it's just so scary that you know doctors he talks about, you know peptide bond and the bond be very important case 98% a state of the purity but you know, we've seen some even from we won't set where we've seen them, but we've seen some things that are in the market we have our own mass specs LCMS.
[00:58:00] HPLC is here in some of the things that you get quote unquote debris, whether it's the wrong acetate salt or the rock salt exchange. That's been done. I mean you're talking about. Okay, I think there's a huge rationalization people. Okay, I can save money from going to a physician and I can this positions it's more expensive because he's getting real product.
I can get it online or from a buddy at another facility very cheap. And the worst thing that can happen is it doesn't work. That's the wrong attitude. The worst thing that happened is you have no idea where this up is coming from. There's no quality control over it and there's no oversight because he seems kind of pop up and pop down.
So it's something that's really scary. I think you know those parts of the things that really educate the public needs to be needs to be dressed for sure.
Ben: Got it. Now, I would be remiss not to mention a couple of the other things. I wanted to get into on the show and though be one thing that I know is of interest, especially, to a lot of [00:59:00] guys and that would be this idea behind controlling hair loss. You know, that's an issue for a lot of guys, not just guys who are on like testosterone replacement therapy. You have a lot of DHT and are losing their hair or but you know guys who are losing their hair for other reasons as well.
And from what I understand there are actual peptide protocols that seemed to work for hair loss. Can you touch on that Dr. Seeds?
William: I want to thank you for bringing that up because that's actually one of our IRVs that we have that's ongoing right now. That is just I just presented some of our early data on hair growth with these with these peptide protocols, and it's absolutely revolutionary and I will kind of go into that just briefly without getting too scientific. We are able so if you understood what I just talked about cell senescence and how senescence can affect the use of stem cells, but can [01:00:00] affect other cells around imagine, if you've got people that are dealing with loss of hair or baldness whether male or female a lot of that has to do with how the senescent cells around it are affecting the follicle of cell, that follow will stem cell and part of it also is this is a DHT and do suppression of these hair follicles and the stem the hair follicle stem cell and it's about differentiation of that stem cell.
Well if we know that and, we understand that their pathways involved, that are implicated in follicular development. We know it. We know it's called Wnt/β-catenin pathway and we have found this peptide. It's called PTD-DBM and it's a lengthy peptide but it's actually a short peptide but it's a peptide that we use, to actually affect the [01:01:00] suppression of Wnt/β-catenin pathway because there's this thing called CX-5 and it's really it's an inhibitor of the Wnt/β-catenin pathway. Well this PTB, this PTD-DBM, can actually stop that inhibition and, up regulate this pathway that rescues the stem cell from this process of being suppressed.
Well, we know that, we know things like valproic acid has a, is something that can also add to the issue of affecting this Wnt/β-catenin pathway activator. And we know actually if we do like dermal abrasion or if we introduce some trauma say to the skin that's another way to cause follicular neo genesis.
So [01:02:00] on top of that. We know things like TB4 has a great way of going after senescent cells in effect in affecting something called interleukin-1 beta and, the thing I brought up before the Nuclear Factor Kappa Beta which induce cell senescence well TTB4 can actually turn that off and can promote
Ben: What's different than TB 500 you're talking about Thymosin-Beta 4 right?
William: Well, it's actually the same TB 500 is just a generic name that came up that it's really Thymosin-Beta 4 but it's the same thing TB that TB 500 is Thymosin Beta 4 and so we can use that all of those in a stack and, also something like we use a GHK-Cu which is a peptide, it's a tripeptide.
That is an amazing peptide that up regulates down regulate certain genes. But it's all about wound [01:03:00] repair stem cell activation and, it has this copper component that is very, very important in inducing wound care and, actually proliferation and activation of stem cells. So we developed this stack and we started implementing this we get through what 18 centers and, Ben in three months we're seeing amazing growth, hair growth. I mean we're growing hair.
Ben: So the so the stack one more time. It's PTD-DBM. It's Thymosin-Beta 4 and what was the last one?
William: GHK-Cu also valproic acid, and we do microdermabrasion at the same time. So you'll you abrade the scalp to improve it.
And so we actually have like the GHK-Cu we've got in a foam type of application where you can rub it on the scalp and that'll be [01:04:00] impregnated into the dermabrasion. The TB4 is injected will use it will use that as a subcu injection because TB4 can go anywhere. And it recognizes where it needs to be utilized. You don't have to inject it right into the scalp. Yeah,
Ben: Okay. Got it. Interesting.
Jeremy: You’re using PRP topically as well, Dr. Seeds? Yeah on that protocol we do in PRP topically as well.
William: Yeah. Yeah.
Ben: Yeah, so it's kind of a multi-modal approach. That's very interesting. I know for example, one of our mutual friends at least I think you guys know Dr. Craig Conover he and his wife to a lot of like hair and skin treatments and I think they're using things like peptides PRP lasers etc., but yeah, it seems that you got to throw a few things into the mix, but I think the idea of peptides for hair loss seems kind of fly under the radar right now. So I'm sure a lot of guys will be interested in that stack of those three you’ve mentioned.
William: We're attacking all the pathways Ben. I mean we know what causes it so why not go after the root cause if you can go after the root cause. You [01:05:00] can correct that everything.
Ben: Yeah. Yeah. Now another area in addition to hair loss that I know a lot of people are interested in and I even mentioned intranasal administration or something called C-Max on my last peptides podcast is something that's a pretty potent nootropic and seems to work really, really well, in combination with something like a racetam, like aniracetam or piracetam supplementation.
Are there other, other good peptides or peptide stack? Things like memory or cognition?
William: Oh boy, that opens another Pandora's Box. Absolutely. So, we were actually we have another IRB. That's about to start on something really exciting, which is what we call FGL. It's an, it's like a neural adhesion molecule. It's a mimicking molecule of a neural adhesion molecule. That's a structural [01:06:00] type of thing that helps synaptic plasticity of the neuro synapse and we know that can improve memory. And actually, we actually know with this FGL peptide. That even in and people that aren't impaired in memory, we can improve memory and that is a huge step forward in understanding that we actually can take somebody with normal memory and improve it.
I mean that that that's really telling you when you're on, you're on target. There's been there's been a lot of money thrown at this peptide to, with an investigation I know in Europe, they spent probably over 60 million dollars developing this and taking this to fruition to get it on the market and it just basically is an incredible neurotropic factor that improves the glial cells, it improves the, [01:07:00] what it does so well is, it takes, you know, you have these microglial cells that are in the brain that. That are like the cleanup mechanism of the brain and what you want is, you want those microglial cells not over activated. And so this FGL can put the microglial cell into what we call a quiescent state where it's not in senescence.
It's just in the perfect state ready to react when it needs to react and that really that changes the game in the brain because a lot of things can go wrong quickly. And inflammation is something in the brain that can really take hold and you know this day and age with the way we live in this world, and those sleep we don't get, the stress we have, I guarantee you everybody's dealing with neural information. And that's, that's a whole another topic, but it's real so we have ways to maintain that microglial cell and at the same time [01:08:00] up regulate. The ability of say the hippocampus to work better and controlling and consolidating memory and influencing even the the local production of what we call IGF-1 which is real important in consolidation of memory.
And so we know these mechanisms and if you know the mechanisms again, then you then you've got something that's that that's amazing and actually. The point you brought up about it can be administered intra-nasally, but the problem with that is, you have to use really high doses of it and it's very expensive at high doses.
So we've gone to a place of where we're using SUB Q of say, you know, intra-nasally, we've looked at 25, a 100, 250 milligram dosing. Well, we can go down to 1 milligram dosing a day, if we use SUB Q.
Ben: 1 milligram subcutaneously of [01:09:00] each of those FGL DIX sense [01:09:01] ______?
William: No, no, no I'm just talking right now about FGL.
William: So, if I use something like that, that's what we've done. We've gotten to the SUB Q you brought up Dihexa, Dihexa is something that is a, oh my gosh, you’ve brought up one of my favorite neuropeptide. That's a game changer in my opinion, and neuroinflammation, in neurodegenerative disease, but also I think in the same fashion of utilizing this FGL it up regulates brain derived neurotropic factors that are really important.
You know, we're just learning now. Maybe we could go down this road right now and talk about the fact that were, we've kind of come to a place now where we're understanding that people that are dealing with depression, and anxiety, and issues of where they were using SSRIs and MAOIs, and you know, all [01:10:00] of these things to try to work on depression and so forth. It's actually the brains inability to make enough brain derived neurotropic factor.
It comes down to that. And if we can up regulate the brain's ability to truly up regulate that which Dihexa is a very powerful neuropeptide that basically in it's got these amazing pathways. But what it really does is it improves blood flow to the brain, and that enhances, and stops all of these angiotensin things that modified constriction of vessels so it improves blood flow.
But it also works through different mechanisms of like up regulating this brain derived neurotropic factor and improving stem cell activation all of these things. You need to make the brain work well, but at the same time it has activity of where it can work [01:11:00] against this microglial cell that can go bad, and when a microglial cell goes bad, it goes through what we call a phase change and, Dihexa can actually go right in and change the phase of a pro-inflammatory microglial cell back to an anti-inflammatory microglial cell. That's a game changer, and so we're actually the nice thing about that hexes. It's a cream. It's something you don't have to inject. You don't have to take it orally we can do it. We can actually use it through topical application.
Ben: It’s fascinating. Okay, so there was one other, and by the way for people listening, in I have you seen [01:11:42] __________ before both inter-nasally as well as and I think this works a little bit better SUB Q injection. And I mean, it's amazing. It gives you like a good four to six hours of just clean brain energy. It's a very cool one and I'd be, I'd be curious what a stack of all three of these would feel like when it comes to a good way to enhance [01:12:00] the brain during a typical day of work or sleep deprivation or jet lag or something like that, but there is a there's one other peptide mechanism that I wanted to ask you about because you had mentioned this to me Dr. Seeds and that's some of these growth hormones secreted gags and particularly some of these ghrelin receptor peptides.
I think GHS-R1 and GHS-R1b, we're the ones that you mentioned what exactly are those and where would those fit into a protocol? Why would someone use something like?
William: That comes to the core of understanding so really quickly the brain has the capability of making its own growth hormone that is designed for your body.
And your body actually pulses it out, okay? And what happens as we get older, or we have inflammation, or we have diabetes, or we have things that affect the body and inflamed it and build up senescent cells. Again that acts [01:13:00] to dampen the brain's ability to release its own growth hormone. So, we have these peptides which are called GHRHs and GHRPs.
The GHRHs are like the CJC 1295 or the MOD 129 or the Tesamorelin, those GHRHs. The GHRP or the ghrelin that you were referring to the GHRPs are like the Ipamorelin the GHR 2, GHRP 6 and those specifically have different ways. They work on the security guard of the pituitary and what's important about what you brought up is, the GHRPs or the ghrelin like receptors. There's actually we've learned there actually are two receptors there splice variants. There's the A and the B, and what happens is if you take too much of [01:14:00] a GHRP, you can actually dampen one of the receptors the the B receptor. Will dampen the effects of the A receptor and we'll involute the receptor and actually turn it off.
So you lose the ability of utilizing that peptide the way it's supposed to be because really what that peptide is doing is stopping somatostatin the inability of the pituitary to release growth hormone. So these things like MK 0677, which is a really it's an oral GH, you know, GHRP that is used very much, so in the in the power lifting body building and athletic world
Ben: It's considered like a [01:14:42] _____ , right?
William: No, it's actually it's actually a peptide.
Ben: Oh, okay.
William: Yeah, it's actually it's a GHRP like peptide and it what happens is that's a very powerful GHRP that affects that exactly what you talk about the [01:15:00] B receptor and you can take too much of it and what happens, is people don't realizing in, like if you take it you have to be very controlled in the timeframe that you take it, like I wouldn't recommend more than 62 possibly 12 weeks of a cycle with something like that. And then you have to go off of it for a while, because you're going to change that receptor and it's going to involute, and what happens is, there's been some really interesting data that's come out in.
And looking at the involution of this receptor, if you lose it, we see really bad things that happen where, you can have increased anxiety, increased depressive episodes because you need that receptor working. And that MK 0677 has the capability of turning off that receptor and that's a real thing.
So it's a great peptide to utilize, you have to know how to utilize it right. So that question you [01:16:00] asked is really, really important and understanding for people to know that you really have to use these things correctly for them to be working.
Jeremy: And it goes back to the online piece or even some pharmaceutical going through and what patients are patients themselves are asking for and re-stresses the importance of going to a position that's well-versed in certified, and accredited in this space because there's so many things online of just take an [01:16:23] __________ stack but not combining it with a the other side.
Like I see CJC 1295 or something to balance that out. You know, we know you'll get a result for a couple months, but we don't know how long the receptors. Turned off or if not forever. So it's definitely something that's very, very important for anyone not consider going to a position to really rethink that
William: Yeah, and just to take that further, what people don't realize, so let's say people just take CJC 1295 by itself or mod 129.
They're basically the same, all that's doing is [01:17:00] turning, telling that pituitary cell its up regulating the production of growth hormone that pituitary cell isn't releasing the growth hormone, because it's got this inhibitory action of somatostatin that's holding it. That's why you combine it with a GHRP because when you use that GHRP right at that time, you're going to release that growth hormone because you want this precision, you want this working well, well if you use a GHRH by itself. You're not going to get the efficiency of what you could truly do because you don't know when that pituitary is going to release it and on top of it, if you're not paying attention to your macros, you know, if you're eating carbohydrates around that time frame or fatty acids that's going to blunt it too.
So it really is relevant in how you utilize these peptides to make them work efficiently and wealth for you.
Ben: So with, with these couple of peptides, these ghrelin based peptides, what would be the actual benefit to someone using [01:18:00] something like GHS-R1a, GHS-R1b?
William: Well, okay. So what you're talking about, those are just receptors. That's what the GHRPs work on they work on the receptor. So what I was trying to get to with those are the reason we know where GHRPs work, there's just two different splice receptors that they work at and that's how they work together to make the cell, you know, release growth hormone.
Does that make sense? Okay. Yeah.
Ben: Yeah. So this is these are basically more potent growth hormone secreted gods.
Ben: Okay interesting. So would this be something someone would use like prior to sleep to enhance both sleep cycles as well as recovery or muscle protein synthesis during sleep?
William: Brilliant question, and I you're just right off on with this Ben. So you just, you hit the, I think one of the most missed opportunities that [01:19:00] all of us have is physicians to help anybody in any state of disease and that's, control sleep and what I mean by control sleep, I mean specifically try to up regulate what we call Stage 4 sleep, which is delta sleep.
It’s right before you go into REM. That's actually when the body number one, releases growth hormone. That's the only time it will do it. So you're enhancing and that's your biggest pulse, you'll get during the day is during that phase, another thing that happens during that stage of, Stage 4 sleep is you get this perilymphatic drainage from the brain.
The brain has its own lymphatic system. It only drains during Stage 4 sleep and you can understand that's important because you're removing toxic metabolites and so forth protease is cytokines and things from the brain during that phase so you can imagine if you lose Stage 4 sleep.
[01:20:00] you’re not letting the body go through its natural repair mechanisms that it desperately needs. So that's actually as physicians, our primary goal is to start everybody at night time right before they sleep with GHRH, GHRP combination or a GHRP by itself peptide. To start taking advantage of what we can know and improving Stage 4 sleep release growth hormone at night, and take care of also what we call in training the receptor because, we can make that receptor be more, to do more of its own releasing also, so you can retrain the receptor, but the sleep thing, you hit it on the head that that is just that your Golden Goose if you can start controlling that because think about it.
People who over you know who work out too much or you know who over train, they all have issues with sleep people that have autoimmune diseases, cardiac disease, all these things have [01:21:00] relevance, in decreasing Stage 4 sleep doctor
Jeremy: Dr. Seeds, Jesus made a really good point on the retraining of the receptor, right?
I mean you think about different cycles and, what typically happens if you look at like an HRT component and, someone's using testosterone what that will kind of down regulate production after a short course and then, potentially for depending on how long you are forever and you would need that. Where he look at his growth hormone secreted logs will go through wants proteins and look at from like CJC if, you know combination even if you just did a short course. That receptor will actually still be producing more than it was naturally. So I think the complete opposite of what you think about when you're augmenting something it's because you're really stimulating that so, these are really good point that needs to be driven home.
William: I’ve seen it and I mean, let's take let's just take, an older patient in their 70s and 80s that comes in and says Doc, I've lost my, you know, I used to walk everyday. I've [01:22:00] lost that will to do what I want to do. I lost that kind of step in my, the way I walk. I mean, I really, something's happening to me Doc and, my sleep is terrible and I don't you know, I don't want to eat much.
Oh my gosh, you can just change someone's life instantaneously within days by just attacking these receptors at night time, before they go to bed. You just, this is how you know, a lot of, we all realize, a lot of things work for patients, work because the patient feels it, the patient sees it, it's not me telling you, this is what's going to happen. You have to feel it. You've got to, you've got to be utilizing this process to believe in getting better. If you have that ability to change the game instantaneously for someone. Oh my God, you've changed their life because the next thing is they come in and go, okay. [01:23:00] something’s changed for me Doc. What else can I do to make things better? Well, that's when you have it. That's when you can start working on exercise. You start working on nutrition. I mean, you've got a total, you change the Paradigm of Health Care. You've got the patient asking you the right questions.
What can I do to get better? How could you know? That's what we live for. It's getting those people that are so in tune to, they start becoming into their body to all these little changes and it's like your audience been there all seeking ways to keep themselves going without hitting those milestones of problems, right?
Ben: Yeah. Well guys, this is absolutely fascinating. I feel like I could talk to you for hours about peptides. I don't know if I can if I can clinch much longer with this Giardia, but I could probably go for a lot longer. However, we're out of time, but I've been taking a whole bunch of notes and I'm going to put all the notes [01:24:00] for people over at Ben Greenfield fitness.com all things peptides.
I'll link to the other episodes I've done on peptides and, also to the International Peptide Society, to Dr. Seeds website and, a whole bunch of other resources for you guys in the realm of peptides. That's going to be all over at Ben Greenfield fitness.com./all things peptides guys. This has been incredibly enlightening. So thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing all this with us.
William: My pleasure, and I just have to say your audience is very fortunate to have somebody like yourself. It just pushes these questions forward. I mean, that's what makes this all work. It’s that amazing. Thank you for what you do.
Ben: Awesome. Awesome. Thanks. That means a lot man. Well, well folks I'm Ben Greenfield along with Dr. William Seeds and Jeremy Delk, of Delk Enterprises signing out from Ben Greenfield fitness.com. Have an amazing week.
Ben: Well, thanks for listening to today's show. You can grab all the [01:25:00] show notes the resources pretty much everything that I mentioned over at Ben Greenfield fitness.com along with plenty of other goodies from me including.
Highly helpful Ben recommends page which is a list of pretty much everything that I've ever recommended for, hormones, sleep, digestion, fat loss, performance and plenty more. Please also know that all the links all the promo codes that I mentioned during this and every episode help to make this podcast happen and to generate income that enables me to keep bringing you this content every single week.
So when you. Then be sure to use the links in the show notes use the promo codes that generate because that helps to float this thing and keep it coming to you each and every week.
Since releasing a previous podcast episode about peptides, I've received a ton of questions about them, including:
- What are peptides, exactly?
- What's the best way to store peptides and for how long are they stable?
- What's the most updated anti-aging peptide stack?
- What's the best nootropic or cognition-enhancing peptide formula?
- Can peptides be used to slow or stop hair loss?
- What's the unique peptide that stops gas and bloating in its tracks?
So on today's podcast, I have two guests. The first, Dr. William Seeds, is a leading researcher and educator in the field of peptides. He is a medical doctor board certified in orthopedic surgery, sports medicine, anti-aging, and regenerative medicine. Dr. Seeds provides this leading-edge care at the world-renowned Spire Institute, Olympic Training Center in Geneva, Ohio. He has treated athletes from all over the world, helping them compete on the playing field and fulfill their dreams of winning gold medals. As a consultant for ABC’s Dancing With the Stars, he enables their dancers to stay competitive and recapture their careers after injury. Dr. Seeds is the medical director for the New Initiative of Regenerative Medicine at the NFL's Hall of Fame in Canton, Ohio.
Dr. Seed's passion is bringing peptide medicine to the forefront as treatment of all major disease processes, traumatic injuries, as well as mental, addiction, and pain disorders. As a researcher of peptide therapy protocols for over 25 years, Dr. Seeds founded and chairs the International Peptide Society, the only organization with certification and fellowship training in peptide therapies. This academic medical society leads the forefront as the authority in peptide practices and is the leader in education for physician and health care providers.
Mr. Jeremy Delk, my other guest, has been a successful entrepreneur for over a decade, with a keen eye for innovative new products, technologies, and unexploited market niches. Mr. Delk utilized the financial acumen he learned in the financial sector with Fidelity Investments, while working in both Boston and NYC, to incorporate Delk Enterprises in 2002. With the growth of Delk Enterprises, Mr. Delk made the decision to move back to his native Kentucky focusing on the growth of his company, which includes the peptides arm Tailor Made Compounding.
Over time, Mr. Delk expanded Delk Enterprises from primarily a real estate holdings firm to a diversified private equity portfolio including equity holdings in animal health, sports medicine, human health care, pharmacy & creating access to future IP through strategic investments in technology and human health R&D initiatives. Today, positively disrupting healthcare through portfolio companies and other strategic investments is where his primary focus lies.
During our discussion, you'll discover:
-What are peptides, exactly…7:45
- Natural signaling agent made up of amino acids, sequences, chains, etc.
- Reproduces what the body already knows to do in signaling, neurotransmitters, hormones, enzymes, etc.
- Maintain a state of neutrality in a cell
- “We can find the pathways involved in cellular progression into generation, and change it by isolating the signaling agents that aren't working and induce it via a peptide”
- “Cells are intelligent; we're just giving it the ability to show its intelligence”
- Impacting neurodegenerative disease, diabetes, autoimmune dysfunction and more
- Peptides are not new; what's new is the ability to hold the peptide in the system and pinpoint the synthesis in the cells
- The lack of intellectual property protection causes some hesitancy among pharmaceutical companies to proceed full speed ahead on peptide R&D
-How peptides can be used for an anti-aging protocol…14:20
- “Aging is a disease, the #1 risk factor for everything…”
- Cells have different receptors to detect problems (infection, environmental stressor, etc.)
- A cell can organize itself and take on the adaptive stress
- Allostatic load: Wear and tear on the body as it is exposed to repeated or chronic stress
- Phenotype: The composite of the organism's observable characteristics or traits
- True senescent state: The condition in which cells change their phenotype
- Autophagy: The natural, regulated mechanism of the cell that removes unnecessary or dysfunctional components.
- Certain peptides can naturally upregulate cellular autophagy, thus slowing down the aging process
-Which peptides should the consumer consider for an anti-aging protocol…21:05
- It will vary depending on the individual
- A cell is like a see-saw: AMPK and mTOR
- AMPK gives the cell energy (calorie restriction and intermittent fasting)
- mTOR builds the cell back up
- If mTOR is always going, you can't have autophagy
- MOTS-c is a “magic bullet” for autophagy
- Corrects metabolic imbalances
- Improves metabolic flexibility of muscle
- FOXO4 induces a cell into apoptosis; specific to senescent cells (cell directive)
- The protocol and schedule for each peptide will vary on the state and health of the user
- MOTS-c works by downregulating Glycogen synthase kinase 3 (GSK-3)
- If you can control GSK-3, you can control a great deal of disease processes in a cell
- Humanin is a mitochondrial-derived peptide in the same category as MOTS-c; it has specific functions in the body when used
- Humanin slightly more complicated in determining the dosage and mode of injection than MOTS-c
- Is there a protocol that would alternate MOTS-c, FOXO4, and Humanin?
- Yes, but be aware of what mechanisms you're improving and what you're slowing down
-The peptide Ben recently discovered to help with SIBO and gut stability…45:15
- LL37 was discussed on Super Human Radio w/ Carl Lanore
- LL37 can be very powerful, but also the wrong thing to use
- The gut can go very well or very wrong
- It only works if we have all the bacteria we should all have working for us
- If you're feeding the gut the right nutrients, the microbes make short-chain fatty acids
- The gut produces its own LL37 when its functioning properly
- LL37 can induce discomfort and nausea if used to fight SIBO
-Dosage recommendations for LL37…50:37
- 100mcg morning, 100mcg evening for 4-6 weeks.
- Note: In the recording, Dr. Seeds recommends two, 100-milligram doses, but it should be micrograms.
-How to best inform one's self on the proper use of peptides…52:00
- They should be used under the care of a properly educated physician
- The International Peptide Society is a self-governing body created for oversight and accountability
- Other industries (such as stem cells) have suffered due to the lack of a similar organization
- NYT Article: At the Heart of a Vast Doping Network, an Alias
-Peptide protocols to use for hair loss…58:45
- Used to affect suppression of Wnt/β-catenin pathway
- Upregulate the pathway that rescues the stem cell from being suppressed
- Thymosin-Beta 4 (Tβ4) goes after senescent cells that affect interleukin 1 beta
- TB500 is a generic form of Tβ4
- Valproic acid
-Peptide stacks that are good for memory and cognition…1:05:25
- FGL puts microglial cells into a quiescent state
- FGL improves already normally functioning memory; a sign it's on the right track
- Neuroinflammation is a big problem in the current day and age of busyness, lack of sleep, etc.
- Dihexa upregulates brain-derived neurotrophic factors
- Can change a pro-inflammatory microglial cell into an anti-inflammatory one
- It's applied topically
-Facts around ghrelin and the GHS-R1a and GHS-R1b and how it affects dosing of the GH secretagogues…1:12:05
-And much more!
Resources from this episode:
-NYT Article: At the Heart of a Vast Doping Network, an Alias
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