October 24, 2015
Click here for the full written transcript of this podcast episode.
Meet Denise Minger.
Wait, no. That's not Denise.
This is Denise.
The woman above Denise is a woman from a dietary study who lost 123 pounds in just shy of a year. She's not to be confused with the woman above her, who obliterated 278 pounds in a bit over a year.
All on a 90-95% carbohydrate based, high-sugar, high-starch, low-fat diet.
And that's just a peek into the contents of today's podcast. But back to Denise.
Denise blogs at RawFoodSOS.com, where she just released the controversial article “IN DEFENSE OF LOW FAT: A CALL FOR SOME EVOLUTION OF THOUGHT.” That particular article is exactly what we're going to be digging into this podcast…
…but Denise is no stranger to BenGreenfieldFitness.com. Last year, I published the article “How To Figure Out What Diet Is Right For You“, which contains many anecdotes from Denise's book “Death By Food Pyramid“.
As a self-described health blogger, Denise typically spends about five hours a day reading and writing about nutrition. In both her writings and lectures she has a reputation for aggressively challenging today's leading voices of conventional wisdom, and is perhaps most famous for her thorough refutation of “The China Study” book. Denise is considered to be a major thorn in the side of both mainstream nutritionists and other health figures who adhere to standard dietary dogma.
During my discussion with Denise, you'll discover:
-Why Denise doesn't drink coffee and eats lots of sushi and sashimi…
-How in the process of redeeming fat, we traded one form of oversimplified blame for another…
-What carbosis is, and why you need to be very careful mixing carbohydrates with fats…
-Why our current definition of low fat is very flawed, and the more appropriate definition of what low fat actually is…
-The low fat history you've probably never heard…
-The shocking evidence that sugar and white rice can actually cure diabetes and melt fat off the body…
-How decreasing “healthy” saturated fat and increasing intake of vegetable oils has been shown in baffling research to actually benefit conditions such as multiple sclerosis…
-Why it's a myth that a low-fat, high-carb vegetable diet is what eventually killed researcher Nathan Pritikin….
-Why Denise has changed her mind about some issues she had with the documentary “Forks Over Knives”, and why she apologizes to vegans and vegetarians…
-And much more!
Do you have questions, comments or feedback about high carb vs. high fat, and Denise's new take on a high carb, low fat diet? Your own thoughts to share? Leave it all below and either Denise or I will reply!
Let’s see, those who eat high fat need it to sustain energy in highly physically demanding lifestyles, as in hunter-gatherers, Gandhi or the Dalia Lama could easily go low fat, but even Gandhi did, toward the end of his life, resort to that “horrible” food according the vegans and vegetarian, let’s refer to them as V-V, that is, meat or fish, as has Dean Ornish, and DeGeneres, T. Colin Campbell would look and feel 29 years younger if he got off the fanaticism of V-V, or in his case, vegan. Lots is said about genetics, really, I assure all and everyone one day on an iceberg and the most fanatical V-V’s will partake of a bit of blubber and probably feel guilty, poor souls, but if one is on a south sea island with 75 degree temperature, the blubber thing will be a bit out of sync. I was in the health food, yes, food, not synthetic vitamins, a long time ago. I had ice cream from pastured cows, sugar, etc., plus bread from Canada, yogurt from Continental Yogurt, bake goods from an L.A. bakery complete with brown sugar, and apple juice. I actually thought this stuff was high quality health food. I was not only wrong, and I won’t say why, most everyone knows, but an idea occurs to me: Mixing fat with sugar, that is, in bakery goods, ice cream, yogurt, and what is essentially sugar water called apple juice, all is dreadful food but all sweet and appealing to those semi or hooked on sugar. I was a high protein fanatic, and would eat almost entire stuffed chicken from a deli near McArthur Park in L.A. I wasn’t stupid, simply young, powerfully built, healthy, and thought the more protein the better, would you believe after steak, eggs, milk and whole wheat toast for breakfast, it would be chicken, potatoes, milk and lots of each for lunch, then blood rare steak , milk and baked potato for dinner, and if I went out I’d eat that whole chicken for a bedtime snack. Protein count: 736 grams of protein, but the chicken made sleep difficult, on top of that I tried spoonsful of soy protein but found it made me sick. However, what was my physical activity? Lifting weights a little, walking on the beach a lot, riding my bike even more, calisthenics, and working twelve hours a day at both office and physical work. In the food business I drove over 400 miles per day for 18 months, delivering the aforementioned foods to 92 stores, everyday except Sunday. I loved Sunday, but I was constantly on the move. The point being, we gravitate toward foods that supply energy and protection from the cold but when we eat sugar, a horrid food, as is HFCS, even worse, and then all the chemicals, a Big Mac dinner has over 100 chemicals, look it up, and 12 foods but not one who eats organic would eat. My point, I could go polysyllable science based attempting to confuse or impress readers, if anyone reads this, but I’ve come to a conclusion, most folks, sweet people, doing their best, seem to forget something that made digesting protein in enormous quantities, it was muscle demand, activity based, and the only time I started putting on weight was when I drank carrot juice, ate whole wheat bread, the latter with added sugar, the carrot juice a plague after awhile. High carbs? My children run Marathons now and then, or did, the Boston for my son three times, not a winner but he finished in under 2.51, and my daughter in Seattle a few times, half and full marathons. At peak health and an exceedingly health appetite we’d eat a large chicken in less than three minutes, we felt fine, in fact, very good. Of course the kids were less than 7, I was 33, and my wife was 23. I say unless you have physical demands that resemble hunter/gatherer, a high fat diet may be questionable, but if one eats 700 g of saturated fat, how will that affect your physical activity? A sedentary person, like so many of us compared to primitives who were far more active, doesn’t eat saturated fat, in office kitchens the cupboards are full with crisps, sodas, which mean aspartame, canola oil or soy oil, both bad to horrible and even a bakery snack. How did we survive as we have? It surely wasn’t going V-V, or strictly carnivore, though is high fat carnivorous(?), it was meat, wild berries, saturated fat, and not much else, but I haven’t researched what primitives ate completely, but fat was valued. They died quick, average age about 22, but babies often didn’t make it past a year, or so I’ve heard, Thomas Jefferson’s children, number 6, only two survived.
I get the distinct feeling V-V’s are behind this Website, and anything to do with saturated fat they, V-V’s, the medical community, and others fearful of advocating saturated fat as a healthy alternative to sugar, dreadful package carbs, etc., haven’t researched it fully. What kind of lives do we live? Once we were what was called farmers or ranchers, we worked hard sometimes, got fresh air, drank clean water, ate fresh milk from goats or cows, and were self-sustaining. Now, we’ve invaded cities with educations that make intellectual idiots of us but we think we’ve got it right. We don’t, nothing hardly is as it was supposed to be for homo sapiens, we’ve become slaves to government and they’ve become slaves to corporations, and who is most prevalent as CEO’s? Psychopaths, lawyers next, plus clergy, journalists, media, salesmen, civil servants, chefs and surgeons in the top ten. We can talk, claim, proclaim, lie and sound like we’re telling the truth, but those who disperse false information can at least be forgiven, those who lie to gain converts are of the psychopathic persuasion. So, what will save us before the oceans rise, the temperatures become intolerable? Meltdown and population decimation. We’ve allowed psychopaths whose only interest is money, power, control and attention. Sound familiar, it starts with a T and ends with a p. He doesn’t believe global warming is for real if anybody other than said idiot thinks that, I have not encountered them. So, what conversations are we having, or comments, or whatever one calls it? It’s a neurotic misfire of life itself, we’ve been slam dunked by corporations whose only interest is an increase in their bank balance, that way they can buy all the things they don’t need except in a maniacal world. I wish I could be kind about people, but it should be obvious to everyone we’re on our way to oblivion with few if any survivors. Sorry, it’s depressing and we’re too entrenched and some too stupid to see what has to happen. It’s not an “if,” it’s fact and it saddens me, with four children and 12 grandchildren and a few friends how do I mention what I’m writing here to them, but since we’re into what works and what doesn’t nutritionally, how can we not bring up what cannot continue doing what we’re doing. Will anything I write change course for anyone? Of course not, but I don’t care, I’m writing this to unload my concerns but I could have said simply, “We have to change how we live or our lives will end forevermore for our species,” and since I have children and they will have children I have reason to do something positive besides write diatribes more depressing than usual. If I ruled the world, corporations would be outlawed, It’s like Lincoln said about corporations or was purported to have said: “I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. . . . corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed.”
—U.S. President Abraham Lincoln, Nov. 21, 1864
(letter to Col. William F. Elkins
If anybody replies to this comment I won’t see it, I simply don’t go back to any website I’ve made comments on. I did once and found the insults were biased. What was it I said: 40-68% of priests are homosexual, and the lies told how no homosexuals molest or etc., is false. I was called weird, crazy and so forth. Why by? Right.
She is one of very few and I doubt the entire “story” is told. Probably had one of those stomach kinks put in or some other surgery.
High sugar diet? That sounds terrible.
“Had to rename youtube page” hahaha you are a unique soul
People are so aggressive! Listen to the podcast, or, don’t listen to the podcast. It’s a fair and balanced talk, not trying to subscribe to either side, delivering evidence and discussion.
Interesting podcast. From what I gather, perhaps the extremes of ketosis and 'carbosis' have their places in treating disease, namely cancer and heart disease respectively. It is therefore proposed that fully adapting to either LCHF or HCLF is perhaps the key and to avoid fleeting in-between (and to avoid combining high carb meals with fats). This throws a spanner in the works for elements of the Mediterranean Diet and for 'healthy' deserts like full-fat and plain greek yogurt mixed with blueberries and raspberries etc.
everyone needs to read the metabolic typing diet, it sorts out why high carb diets work for some people and not for others
I'm not sure why seeking the truth is considered stirring the pot. Also sort of baffled by the assertions that Denise's motive is to get more clicks. Where is this coming from?
Very cool indeed. It kind of draws together some of my other experiences. I was on a super-low-fat diet for some time, and *it worked* in terms of health and weight. But I never was quite sure what about it worked. It stopped working when I loosened up the criteria a little bit, but it wasn’t clear to me which criteria mattered.
Now I’m trying it again, using some of the info from Denise’s article, and wow, it’s working again. I’ll have some good fish oils for sure this time. I find it a very easy way of eating, and probably closer to how pre-neolithic peoples ate (grab a fruit: then eat it!).
I find it funny everyone is expected to either be high fat or not, folks this ain’t religion. As for low fat, I have a personal anecdote. My grandfather had his first heart attack in his early 50s. This was in 1967. He had another 10 years later. He was not obese, he was relatively active working at a business he owned and around his farm on the weekends. At this point, late 70s, he was given the prognosis of only living another year or two. Anyway after the second attack he went to Nathan Pritikin’s 28 day clinic, came back home having teach my grandmother how to cook a vegetable based low fat diet. Took a walk everyday and ended up dying at the ripe old age of 93. I share this b/ c maybe we should be looking at Denise’s blog as more of another tool in our health toolbox. It worked for him but maybe it won’t work for others.
betsyaida2 has hit the nail on the head for me! I’m also an ectomorph, and started eating high fat (mostly saturated) about 3 years ago. My cholesterol markers became great, and my cold/flu immunity massively improved (that could have been down to taking vitamin D3 though). What has become a problem though, is Raynauds Syndrome, to the point where I get painful blisters on my fingers and toes after mild cold exposure. I’ve been wondering whether it was related to my diet, but never considered that saturated fat could inhibit blood flow in susceptible folks! I’m already fit and active, and since listening to this podcast, I’m going to experiment revising my macros to limit saturated fats to 20g per day, and see how this winter goes. I have a good feeling about this! Thank you Ben for asking Denise onto the show! PS. With Jessica also being an ectomorph and suffering from Raynauds, I’ll let you know how it goes.
I think it's more likely that your diet is negatively affecting either your adrenals or your thyroid – if you suffer from cold extremities and not cold core then probably the former.
Judging by the title and photos, I will assume this podcast went into Dr. Walter Kempner's work with the Rice Diet. Having lived this lifestyle for a few years now, I am quite familiar with the work of Kempner and Pritikin. Probably won't listen to this one since I find Minger's style and delivery irritating. I do have to agree a bit with other commenters about this topic "stirring the pot" with the result of creating controversy and confusion. For hearing about someone who changed their mind, I prefer Dr. Garth Davis or Don Matesz. For a self educated leader, I prefer Nathan Pritikin, who took great risks personally and professionally to help people.
There are so many better potential guests on this topic, real professionals who can better explain how and why a therapeutic low fat diet can help.
you should really listen to the podcast
This is so interesting! I've always been told that for metabolic efficiency, pair a serving of carbohydrates with a serving of protein/healthy fat (like apple and nut butter). Ben (or Denise), is this a bad idea? Would I just be better off eating just the apple or just the protein in order to keep blood sugar stable? Thank you for a very thought-provoking podcast. It confirmed my fears, that this "all in" approach may not be in our best interests. Crazy. Next week's podcast will feature some dude telling us our saunas are frying our brains!
+Loved this podcast and came just in time. I've been trying to do high fat low carb now for 2+ years and in the last week, before this podcast, I came to the conclusion that it has ruined my health. 4 months into starting high fat diet I had a chronic illness disable me which had been manageable most of my life. I didn't stop the high fat diet because all the people that promote it say it will reverse chronic diseases. But it didn't for me. Instead it caused major health problems. I don't exactly know where I am going next with my diet but it sure isn't going to be high fat anymore. I have noticed that the people who do really really well with high fat low card diets are big boned, thick looking people or people who have bodies that are prone to obesity. Folks like Nora Gedgaudas, Dave Asprey, Dominic D'agostino, Jack Kruse and Jimmy Moore. It seems like slender folks and smaller boned folks don't do as well with high fat diets or at best they can handel cycling ketosis with weeks/months on and weeks/months off but not 24/7 like the big boned or those predisposed to obesity can.
Ben, perhaps you should do a full on N=1 carbosis experiment. How to do an Ironman in Carbosis :-) Full on biomarkers before and after, give it the works !
Denise/Ben: Since there seems to be some evidence of interference of combining fats/carbs at the same meal could it make sense to simply restrict each meal to highlight one OR the other. i.e. lunch a moderate protein w/healthy fats plus non-starchy salad; dinner being lean protein w/healthy-natural-unrefined carbs plus salad with a smidge of olive oil.
Seems that our ancestors would not have combined carbs/fats at the same meal very much since nature does not produce foods with high amounts of both.
Great conversation. I admit to not having read your post, Denise, but I will print it out and give it a good read. I’m too old to manage too many words on a screen.
I like the idea of a radical dietary change to bring on positive health effects. Fortunately, I don’t have to resort to that myself; homegrown meat and vegetables should suffice.
You are certainly a bright spark in this circle. Ta.
Hey Ben! I really love your podcast and as a vegan/mostly raw that obviously made me smile from ear to ear! I listen to your podcast to keep me open minded and avoid falling in the "blind faith" trap that a lot of people following a particular dogma often get into. I have myself been loosely following and 80-10-10 (80% carbs, 10% fats, 10% protein) type diet for the past 3 years and it works wonders for me. I used to eat even less fat at the beginning of my journey, however I'm an ultra runner and listening to your podcast made me realise that introducing avocado, coconut meat and some nuts and seeds to my mostly fruit and vegetable diet would help me greatly and it did. Despite the high volume of carbohydrate I eat, I consider myself quite fat adapted as I am able to run at a good intensity for more than 90 minutes without fuel.
Hey Ben! I really love your podcast and as a vegan/mostly raw that obviously made me smile from ear to ear! I listen to your podcast to keep me open minded and avoid falling in the "blind faith" trap that a lot of people following a particular dogma often get into. I have myself been loosely following and 80-10-10 (80% carbs, 10% fats, 10% protein) type diet for the past 3 years and it works wonders for me. I used to eat even less fat at the beginning of my journey, however I'm an ultra runner and listening to your podcast made me realise that introducing avocado, coconut meat and some nuts and seeds to my mostly fruit and vegetable diet would help me greatly and it did. Despite the high volume of carbohydrate I eat, I consider myself quite fat adapted as I am able to run at a good intensity for more than 90 minutes without fuel.
Before discovering veganism, I was on a high fat paleo style diet and it just did not work for me. My digestion was horrible, I felt always tired and sick to my stomach. If you wonder, I am french canadian and my ethnic background is mostly french and Irish.
Denise, apologies accepted :-) wow, good on you for admitting to some of your mistakes. It just shows how smart a person you are. You are a very talented writer and you are very courageous. I look up to you a lot… even though I used to cringe when hearing your name ahaha that is the vegan in me ;-)
By the way, if you follow the link below, this is a recent (two weeks ago) picture of me in a bikini. You will see what 2500-3000 calories a day of mostly fruits for 3 years (and some serious miles lol) can do. I was never overweight, but at 31, I am in the shape of my life.
Thanks again so much Ben and Denise and keep up your great work!
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=101561999…
Never understood the attraction of paleo. Our paleo ancestors — who consisted of many different groups with many different diets — didn't live any longer and suffered from chronic diseases. And you can't separate their diet from their lifestyle of frequent fasting and constant movement. Seems like many people call themselves paleo because they like to eat meat. Of course, most people today are eating meat that is nothing like the meat available to our paleo ancestors. Instead of the hypothesizing about what a paleo lifestyle means and why it might be (or might not be) advantageous, I prefer to look at the hard evidence currently available. Look at the longest lived and happiest cultures on the planet and, in general, they're eating a primarily plant-based diet.
Thank you for this podcast!
I don't agree with everything I've heard, and I can't imagine living a life of 80-90% carbs. But I also know that I have tried a ketogenic diet religiously for 2 years, and that didn't work for me either. I do best on a lower healthy fat, moderate protein and higher (non-processed) carb diet that is about 75% plant-based. It took me 15 years to test and figure that for myself personally. Every person is different, and it's not all about weight and body fat. That mental and physical energy and happiness is often also highly predicated on our macro balance and play a huge factor in individual health.
I appreciate Denise being honest and open enough to say – Hey, I'm still verifying and learning and making sure this is accurate. I don't want to say things incorrectly.
She may not be the super science spoken individual you are, but she seems to have passion for what she is looking into and making sure it's accurate. Regardless of whether or not she is going for the controversial "wow" factor, I think she makes some interesting points worth looking into a little more.
And honestly, it's easiest for individuals to stick to what works for you and makes you feel good – be it ketogenic, vegan, paleo, low-fat/high-carb or whatever your choice.
I think it's awesome that you are willing to share different perspectives and ideas regardless of whether or not they are your own. That's why I have continued to listen to you for years.
Thought provoking, Ben and Denise. Thank you for your intelligent discussion. Still cross-referencing Denise’s article, but love to hear different sides of things to challenge my own biases and to make sure I’m looking at all the science. Sometimes one can get short-sighted by trends that are burying conflicting studies and making alternate viewpoints harder to search out on google and PubMed. I enjoy and feel it’s good for me to dig deeper in conflicting views and either verify or modify my viewpoints, rather than base decisions solely on emotions or only one experience when treating a wide variety of individuals. Constantly modifying to fit hypotheses is bad, modifying hypotheses to fit science, that’s cool!
FYI to all smart readers….so important to read the methods section of studies and look at limitations, not just abstracts, but ya’ all know this. :)
Some references to heart-cancer connection:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15123400
http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/7/10/869.long
Haven’t seen follow up results for primary endpoints measuring alternative factors, those studies are usually not great with methodology because of confounders, though not impossible to do.
In my opinion, we still need further studies on the best diet for cancer, but most agree plant-based diets can be helpful.
Here’s some I read on low-fat and cancer…will be studying all this for awhile, thanks for my new geek-out Ben!
http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/7/10/869.long
http://www.apocpcontrol.org/page/apjcp_issues_view.php?sid=Entrez:PubMed&id=pmid:24606431&key=2014.15.3.1141
Ben, excellent podcast w/Denise giving the heretical side of the high fat craze. Like you mentioned at the end of the podcast, I also want to live long, have great health, be smart, have high drive, and play with my grandkids. I have reservations that a low fat diet will do this. We are ALL metabolically and genetically different, high fat doesn’t work for everyone, high carb doesn’t work for everyone.
I like Denise's work, she seems to be genuine in her comments about being open minded. But I feel like she likes to be somewhat a contrarian, it can mean a lot of clicks to her site? I like the fact that Ben is willing to bring on peeps who don't necessarily agree with his point of view. Here is a great response to her post, we need to vet & explore these issues as far as possible.
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/thoughts-o…
Jason Fung Intensive Dietary Management
Denise seems to be genuine in her comments about being open minded. But I feel like she likes to take a contrarian point of view and shock people, it gets her a lot of clicks maybe?
Any way here is a great response to her post by Jason Fung from Intensive Dietary Management.
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/thoughts-o…
I don’t understand the purpose for a podcast or article like this. If low fat is what you believe in and feel it’s been given a bad rap then live it and teach it. Then after that, do an article on all the evidence based feed back you personaly have seen and experienced instead of giving us a history lesson on things that may or may not be true. This article and podcast is a prime example of why we have a society of people who are confused about nutrition.
I don’t understand how Ben can promote and educate people about diets like Paul Jaminet’s diet or the Westin A Price diet and then turn around and give value to articles like this that are clearly meant to stir the pot of the nutritional blogosphere.
I guess when you tune in to Ben's podcast to be informed about health and performance and what you come away with is a history lesson of why low fat and sugar hasn't been given a fare try in America it's a little disappointing.
Remember, the purpose of this blog is to bring forth unique people who have improved their health. I've found that discrimination against unconventional methods is not in Ben's repertoire. If you can't even open your mind to at least evaluating these methods that are different from yours, I honestly feel sorry for you.
What mind opening info did you get from this podcast and article? I find low fat high sugar going on around me. We live in a country and government that loves the idea of low fat high sugar. If she wanted to be mind opening, she’d have a clinic and be changing peoples lives with this unconventional nutritional insight of her’s.
Ben my thoughts on this Podcast:
1. I agree with the notion that to not have a printed transcript or even better a summary of what you consider any useful takeaways from the barrage of denise’s points/claims is a real bummer and renders the PODCAST not a productive or useful allocation of our most precious resource, time!
2. My takeaways of this podcasts (yes i carefully listened, with an open mind) are:
–The only salient points, in my opinion, was that everyone is different, most studies especially those conducted over 25 years ago, much less from the 1930’s, 40’s, and 50’s are essentially suspect, unreliable, garbage because of failure to account for the dozens of variables that could substantial skew the results, and do not provide any valid or useful takeaways.
–I learned nothing that would tend or encourage me to seek knowledge, or nutritional information from your guest, in fact I think her knowledge is shallow, muddled, and untrustworthy, and smacks of bias (bias of useing old discredit and suspect data to allegedly support her radical attention getting self promotion). The only useful conclusion of hers was to be skeptical of the ‘prevalent’ dogma on what is healthy/unhealthy in nutrition.
Personally, i am disappointed in you for putting out (at least tacit endorsing) this level of flawed, incoherent, counterproductive chatter.
I have studied and followed nutrition and fitness for over 5o years, and used myself as my own laboratory, my current beliefs, based on my experiences can be simply summarized:
1. To the extent feasible, eat a wide variety of whole, organic vegetables, legumes, fruit, nuts and seeds (raw) and some lightly cooked, healthy organic high quality fats (coconut, avocado, olive oil) and moderate amounts of good sourced animal proteins (grass fed beef), free range poultry, fish, eggs.
2. Get plenty of exercise from walking, biking, hiking, swimming, etc with regular resistance exercise/activities,
3. Get plenty of quality sleep and relaxation and stay hydrated
4. The other major components of of achieving your potential for a health happy and fun (joy, stoke) are in developing healthy mental, emotional, spiritual (love and connectedness with your environment (people, other animals, water, trees, all living things).
That said, i have learned some very useful points, some new information and a lot of data confirming my own experiences from your website, links, sources and especially from one of your certified “Superhuman Coaches”, namely Dana Naylor here on Maui, who was incredibly helpful in reviewing and fine tuning my nutritional habits and fitness practices and activities. She is outstanding in her very informed and simple approach, and awareness that each of us is different and therefore “one size does NOT fit all”!
Thoughtful comment. I would recommend animal protein be restricted to just a few times a week.
I'm sorry, but I find it hard to believe that a diet high in carbohydrates and sugar will be a weight-losing duo, especially if you have insulin resistance syndrome. About 50% of the population have that syndrome to one degree or other and don't realize it. Goes against good scientific research.
Interesting discussion and original article from Denise.
IMO it all boils down to what is emerging in the field of nutrigenomics! Each person (n=1) is subject to their genetic make-up and the only way to know what macronutrient composition and supplementation will be best is to get a 23andme genetic profile with associated suggestions OR do some self-experimentation. It's a fallacy to think that low carb / high fat will be best for everyone and also that low fat /high carb will be best for everyone, history proves it's not that simple!
The above said I believe some common sense has to be drawn:
1. People who are not overweight have managed to find the macro-nutrient composition that works well for their genetic make-up without having to semi-starve and exercise like monkey on speed! e.g. as Ben mentioned if they are eating high carb diet they probably have the right polymorphism of the RS328 gene.
2. People who are overweight in the western world are on a macro-nutrient composition that's not right for their genetic makeup! For example western populations are pushing 60% overweight and growing and 40% obese and growing (region depending). Given that Carbs are roughly 50% of kcal intake and the well defined mechanisms of:
•hyperinsulinemia causing Lipoprotein Lipase on adipose tissue to uptake free fatty acids and prevent hormone sensitive lipase within the cell breaking down fat
•Fructose ingestion when glucose is abundant is converted by the liver to increase triglyceride formation – hence the issue with refined sugar and HFCS
It would seem that for this burgeoning cohort, they would do better on a low carb / higher fat and protein diet , as is backed up by the million and one studies, showing low-carb weight loss diets kicks ass of standard western diet for overweight and type 2 diabetes patients. See http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/…
3. It could be possible that a high carb (85%) and low fat (<10%) may be theoretically a potential for some people to lose weight and be right for their genetic makeup. The issues I do have with Denise's suggestions are:
•She cites very old research that have extreme risk of bias, confounders that have not been adjusted for and as Ben questions here to identify issues with the research she has few answers for them.
•She mentions the Randal cycle but does not seem to have a good grasp of how it works and the biochemical mechanisms behind it
•She mentions other mechanisms that she is "working on to get a better understanding before doing a second blog post" – this to me smells like she follows a diet that works for her 90% Carbs and little fat, found some papers that back it up, put out a huge post and is now on the lookout for some biochemical mechanisms to back it up and will no doubt soon the be drawing on some random rat and mice study data – only my opinion
•If indeed it turns out all the above is absolutely true (at that point I may have two bum holes) the biggest problem is the chances of getting anyone to follow a <10% fat diet in the western world will be very slim (no pun intended), whereas for the low-carb / high fat studies show equal adherence to standard diets making it possible in the real life: see http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/…
As you may have guessed I am a low carb – high fat and protein man but still have a good 100-150g Carbs per day (25% kcal intake). However, I am not a dogmatic dofus saying it's for everyone but would say if you are currently overweight and your genes are not allowing good body composition on the standard western diet, get on the low-carb first before increasing the coffers of Tate and Lyle (sugar manufacturer).
Great listen but was a little disappointed that Denise did not have her mechanisms to hand backed up with research and seemed a little oblivious to the idea of nutrigenomics e.g. not aware of the RS328 gene Ben alluded to. When putting out such big ideas I would want to be ready for everything!
Love the show Ben!
Cheers
John
Hi Pemby, thanks for the feedback. It may have been better to have all the mechanisms dialed in before agreeing to do podcasts, but I'm still reading through hundreds of papers I collected over the past 14 months piecing the bigger picture together, and I don't like to speak in advance of my own understanding (the last thing I want to do is feed the internet more inaccurate soundbites for folks to repeat!).
My next blog post won't cite any rodent studies unless, they're corroborated by human studies showing the same thing. The more specific concepts other than the Randle cycle (all shown in controlled human experiments) include:
— The tendency for fat to reduce insulin sensitivity and potentiate insulin secretion when combined with carbohydrate (in the context of a single meal)
— In susceptible individuals, a reduction in blood and tissue oxygenation (and increased blood coagulation) 4 – 5 hours after consuming a large amount of fat, especially saturated dairy (e.g., a glass of cream) — leading to angina and tissue hypoxia
— Dysfunctional fat metabolism underlying dysfunctional carbohydrate metabolism
— Saturated fat increasing LDL aggregation, and contributing to the transformation of macrophages into foam cells, as a little-discussed pathway for saturated fat modifying LDL particles in certain individuals — (we talk a lot about oxidation as a form of LDL modification, but aggregation is another)
— Some more I'm still evaluating for plausibility.
By the way, I definitely don't eat a 90% carbohydrate diet, and my post wasn't any attempt to justify my own way of eating. My diet has been pretty consistently 15 – 25% fat for the past 10 years (outside the therapeutic range of 'carbosis') — and in that time I've defended low-carb diets, ketogenic diets, and other diets that have been targeted by bad science. I will continue to fight against dogmatic diet ideology and point out when studies have been interpreted poorly, whether or not the diets in question align with my own.
To make it clear, the point of my blog post, and of this podcast, wasn't to assert that everyone should be converting to a 10% fat diet (my next post will explain how we might be able to apply some of the concepts behind the very-low-fat diet success and put them into more flexible eating programs). This is more a prodding to the health community to re-evaluate some of its assumptions and turn our 'diet community rivalry' into something more inclusive. Go over to any low-fat vegan message board and you'll see post after post gossiping about how the paleos and keto-dieters are killing themselves with all that fat and meat; the inverse happens in the low-carb and keto communities where anything with the aroma of 'low fat' is immediately dismissed or belittled. Both sides would benefit from less defensiveness and more open-minded curiosity.
I am a little disappointed in Denise when she claims she invented the word carbosis. There is a book about diabetes titled carbosis from 2013. I also have reference material from years ago that utilize the term.
Any reference that people who reduced heart disease on these low fat programs increased their risk of cancer.
Isn't there some correlation between lower cholesterol and cancer?
Cheers
Wow, I had no idea “carbosis” had been used before! Guess I should have Googled. I definitely didn’t mean to rip that off from something preexisting!
The very low fat studies that document long-term mortality generally find a reduction in death from all causes, including cancer, but there could be confounding factors and other protective elements of the diet (e.g., higher phytochemical intake). There is some association between low serum cholesterol and cancer, but cause and effect may be reversed (some cancers will lower cholesterol throughout their progression). The very low fat cultures out there have very low rates of cancer and other chronic disease, so I’m inclined to be skeptical that low fat per se will increase cancer risk.
Great podcast Ben and Denise. Thanks for having Denise on your show. Fantastic information. I remember Ray Cronise talking at the Superhuman Coach Event about how the lowfat craze of the late eighties and early nineties wasn’t really a lowfat diet because it was 30% of calories not 10% or less. Love the term carbosis! Keep up the good work!
Ben, do you REALLY agree?
Did u listen?
Ben, Why would I want to listen to one of your one hour podcasts when you cannot provide a transcript link like most people do who don’t feel like listening to each one of your bi weekly hourly podcasts that come through my email box? The article stated enough regardless of what your podcast had to say and the gist of it basically promotes eating unhealthy. Most people are going to listen to that one hour thing they’re just gonna read this article . I coached women who are anorexic who lost hundreds of pounds eating small minute quantities of jellybeans etc.. every day so what’s the point. I find this to be a gorilla marketing tactic of yours that doesn’t necessarily promote health just more of a response from the community to listen to your podcast. I don’t subscribe to this sorry.
Really? A) what am I marketing with this? (Answer:nothing.) B) you get this podcast for free and I can’t hire a transcriptionist for every show!
It makes me laugh Ben you should not even answer her
Ben have you ever heard of voice to text? it is a new break trhough, the latest scream on software
Yep – I use it every now and then.
I think it’s quite close minded to make such allegations without actually listening to the information. It’s also negligent to adhere to a very narrow frame of thinking. Ketogenic diets may work for some, but they absolutely do NOT work for all. We need MANY different approaches to health, and I applaud Ben for bringing in different ideas. Science does not proceed without questioning what we think we know to be true. You must ALWAYS question your beliefs if you want to make progress.
i was vegan several yrs ago i switched to paleo because of low protien and anemia and binging on ice cream gave me fatty liver and gall disfucntion and prediabetes i gained 40 + lbs so 11 months ago i went keto the first 4 months were great lost over 40 lbs blood pressure was good glucose too then about month 5 i could not sleep blood pressure was very high pounding heart and fasting glucose was high so i went even lower carbs to almost none but every time i ate high fat or coconut oil i crashed lethargic and burning eyes heart pounding so hard i shook this went on til a couplke weeks ago when i read many articles and journals about adrenal and hormonal disorders i decided to go balanced diet and added rice potatoes and other good starches back and cut the fat and protien way back.. after the first meal of potato salad veggies and some cheese my blood pressure went from 170/100 to 120/70 my fasting glucose dropped from 110-130 to 86 unless i ate too late so for me a higher starch diet is working better than keto for the last 2 weeks i have slept again my bp is normal and fasting gl too. i was a keto nazi and made many videos on the ills of carbs only to be slapped with the reality of me being wrong keto is not healthy for everyone. for most it is a quick fix for fat loss at best. my wife though is doing great at very low carb and her blood work is great she has also lost 40 lbs after 8 mos. on keto. i do best when protien and fat are low had to rename my youtube page from ketogenic living to intermittent living as i follow an 18/6 IF protocol and that seems to give all the benifits of keto without the damage i was getting from no carbs..
Wow! Lady you need to really get a grip I am sure you will be provided with a transcript link going forward. As far as the other issues I guess you have no interest in research studies that show very interesting data regarding high carb vs high fat. Personally eating high fat has triggered a lot of serious health issues so I found this info very interesting.
Please tell me you've heard of this gentleman: Ray Peat.
I'm not entirely sure what to make of his ideas and how they work for me but he is very much in the same vein here… I've linked to one of many interesting articles on his website. http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/sugar-issues…
Sugar feeds cancer. People who are quite thin can be quite unhealthy. Regardless how you get there weight-loss wise preaching diets that are full of GMO's and toxic sugars sends a terrible message onto the Health community Ben. Not to mention the amount of people who have sugar addiction who read this sort of thing and really need to be staying away from the substance get even further confused. It makes me want to unsubscribe from your blog and listen to Asprey more…
You didn’t listen to the actual podcast…did you?
Yes, glucose feeds cancer cells (termed Warburg effect) but clinical studies haven't shown clear remission from cancer, when a patient switches to a LC ketogenic diet. Also, cancer is approximately 200 types of different diseases with different etiologies.
The nice thing about Ben, is that he does not fear bringing forth other ideas and disciplines, even if they contradict his personal belief, or his previous podcasts.
Science progresses exactly that way. This gives me a good sense of trust, in Ben's overall portrayal of winds in the field.
He is indeed a liberal, open minded person.
Maybe you can check on the level of indoctrination in your response.
We all have the inclination to be biased.
Take care and cheers
BTW, Asprey is diabetic and takes Metformin (a gluneogenesis inhibitor)
Nevertheless, his bulletproof coffee is great!
Maybe, there's no such thing as "all good" or "all bad"
Ledzepgal — it's true that some tumors benefit from sugar deprivation and ketosis (namely certain brain tumors), but depriving many other cancers of sugar can actually make them more deadly and aggressive:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/01/1301…
Regardless, I don't think anyone here is recommending a high-refined-sugar diet for cancer!
LOL, go on – unsubscribe….and raise the average IQ of the listeners at both sites!? ;) (Sorry Dave JK.)
Did you LISTEN to the podcast? Your black and white thinking and threatening, demanding to be spoonfed nonsense is frankly a wee bit pathetic.
Ben, Denise, very interesting! Thank you!
Actually Cancer prefers FFA (Free Fatty Acids)….even converting sugar to FFA for use…Look it up!