Joel Greene Podcast Part 2: How To Reshape Fat Cells, Enhance Repair During Sleep, Target Your “Circaseptan Rhythms,” Build Young Muscle & Get Rid Of Old Muscle.

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It's time for Part 2 of my monster podcast with Joel Greene. If you missed part 1—in which we discuss rebooting your gut and sparking fat loss using some very unique biohacks and strategies—you can click here to listen to it now. Also, check out Joel's recent guest post on my blog entitled “Your Body Fat Is Your Immune System’s Mothership: The Mysterious Relationship Between Fat Cells & Immunity.

So who is Joel Greene, exactly?

To put it simply, he's a man who had his 10,000 hours in before I was even born.

  • In the 1970s, he was interval training.
  • In 1979, he was doing Olympic lifts 3 hours every night.
  • In the 80s, he began studying MCTs.
  • In 1990, he began studying the keto diet.
  • In the early 90s, he was doing what would be called intermittent fasting today.
  • In the mid 90s, he experienced the rebound from chronic starvation. You read this today for this reason.
  • In the late 90s, he went through his clean eating phase, his macro phase, and his ancestral diet phase.
  • By 2001, he had his first nutrition website publishing cutting edge research.
  • By 2006, he came to the end of all the above and discovered none of it worked over time and under real-life pressure.
  • In 2007, he authored the first article to the health and fitness community based on the new science linking gut bacteria and obesity.
  • In 2008, his website hit #2 on Google for weight loss—with over 1,000 original groundbreaking articles that today represent many of the most widely copied ideas in nutrition.
  • In 2009, he launched the world's first diet system based on targeting gut bacteria.
  • In 2010, he was implementing signal activation of the AMPK pathway. The gurus only began speaking to AMPK in 2017.
  • By 2013, he had the world's largest body of anecdotal outcomes for body composition targeting the gut bacteria.
  • In 2013, he published the first article to the health and fitness community on the dangers of MCT oil supplementation.

Today, at 53, on 1 workout a week, eating whatever, whenever, with no drugs, SARMS, prohormones, or ergogenic aids ever, he is the world leader in hacking the body. He is the real deal. He has done it longer and always been far ahead. He looks it, he lives it. What the gurus say is impossible, he was living every day before they were gurus.

He has hacked peak human…

Working out once per week…

Eating whatever, whenever…

…and does it all on fast food!

He is the future of real-world health and nutrition, today.

Joel is the creator of the VEEP Nutrition System, the world's first commercially available program based on targeting gut communities to effect biomarkers. He is a featured author, speaker, and guest in top tier publications like Muscle and Fitness24 Hour Fitness Digital MagazineCBS OnlineSuperhuman Radio, and beyond. His system has also been featured on the Dr. Phil Show, where it has delivered astounding life-changing results.

He is the future of real-world health and nutrition—today, and his new book was one of the most nitty-gritty deep dives into “rebooting your body” that I've ever read. The Immunity Code is simply a new paradigm and an entirely new way to think about caring for your body. The new goal is learning to control immunity, health, and aging using new science-based techniques (or hacks, if you will), to steer immunity for health, and to slow or even reverse aging. ​

This book will change everything you know about your body. Starting with simple, easy to-dos that build one on top of the other, you will emerge with a powerful understanding of how your body really works and how to control it over time, in the real world. Simply put, you will jump 10 years ahead of anything else on the shelf today.

Click here to get The Immunity Code: The New Paradigm for Real Health & Radical Anti-Aging now (not available on Amazon, but is available with this link).

During this discussion, you'll discover:

-Refilling fat cells vs. reshaping the extracellular matrix (ECM)…6:35

  • Reshaping the ECM is preferable; refilling the fat is more common
  • FGF21
  • Post-fat loss biome intervention (4-8 weeks at conclusion of the fat loss period)
    • End of the fat loss period is best to set the body toward the lean phenotype
    • Similar to rehabbing an injury
  • Reset leptin with high protein in the morning
  • Get bioavailable collagen (use code BGF to get a 20% discount)
  • Leptin interventions: high-calorie intake short-circuits leptin shortage
  • Molecular hydrogen can enhance intramuscular fat production (use code GREENFIELD for a 10% discount)

-How hypoxia-inducible factor (HIF-1) and breathwork affect our sleep…15:15

  • Two things necessary for energy production in the body: substrate (fuel) and oxygen
  • Backup mechanisms for substrate (i.e. you have no food): liver and muscle glycogen, body fat, etc.
  • HIF-1 is the backup mechanism for oxygen
  • Cyclic hypoxia (insufficient oxygen) occurs most often during sleep
  • Warburg metabolism has a unique chemical signature
  • Immune cells do well in a low oxygen environment (macrophages)
  • If too many, the chemical signature is the same as that of cancer
  • HIF-1 stabilizes in the cells, and activates oncogenic (cancerous) genes
  • Metabolism of immune cells is paramount in an immunity-centric paradigm
  • How to mitigate the effects of HIF-1:
    • Learn to steer macrophages (populations of immune cells) from inflammatory to anti-inflammatory
    • Niacin and Zinc at bedtime
    • Exogenous ketones (use code BGF to get a 20% discount)
    • Omega 3s while fasting
    • HIF-1 is great post-workout, not during sleep
    • Nasal breathing during workout

-How to mitigate pexophagy…25:30

-Circaseptan vs. circadian rhythms…35:05

  • Chrono-immunology: certain days of the week have unique nutritional requirements
  • 7-day rhythm
    • Sodium retention works on a circaseptan rhythm independent of sodium intake
    • Cortisol levels peak on Mondays
    • Cardiac rhythms reach peak on Wednesdays
  • Seasonal biological needs

-Why NAD supplementation accelerates aging…39:50

  • Immune cells and immune cell signals drive the aging process by accelerating the inflammasome
  • Before taking NAD, watch inflammatory markers
  • NAD makes inflammation worse
  • Quercetin

-How to keep muscles young…43:30

  • Massage post-workout: deep tissue and stimulate blood flow
  • Muscle growth, young muscle, and blood flow are synonymous
  • Book: Becoming a Supple Leopard by Kelly Starrett

-The “daisy cutter” diet protocol…46:00

  • Flood the gut with hemicellulose and cellulose (found in green beans)
  • Lots of protein and no fat
  • Don't do it too often

-The molecule that may make the keto diet impractical…47:30

  • Keto diet increases oxidative stress short-term
  • 4HNE electrophile: the mechanism that mediates oxidative stress
  • Is produced in high amounts with alcohol consumption and fried foods
  • 4HNE in high amounts with long-term keto diet

-And much more!

Click here for the full written transcript of this podcast episode.

Resources from this episode:

– Joel Greene:

– Podcasts and articles:

– Book: Becoming a Supple Leopard by Kelly Starrett

– Supplements:

Molecular hydrogen  (use code GREENFIELD for a 10% discount)

– Studies:

Episode sponsors:

Kion Serum: Use Kion Serum anywhere you’d like for more vibrant, youthful skin and hair. BGF listeners, receive a 10% discount off your order when you use discount code BEN10

Organifi Gold: A new take on an ancient secret: Pain-soothing herbs, incredible antioxidants, and phytonutrients all in one delicious, soothing “Golden Milk” nighttime tea! Receive a 20% discount on your entire order when you use discount code BENG20.

Public Goods: Public Goods is the one-stop-shop for affordable, sustainable, healthy, household products — from home and personal care to premium pantry staples — all in one place. Receive $15 off your first Public Goods order with NO MINIMUM purchase.

Paleo Valley Beef Sticks: 100% grass-fed AND grass-finished. Keto friendly and higher levels of Omega 3 Fatty Acids. Receive a 15% discount off your order when you use my link.

Do you have questions, thoughts, or feedback for Joel or me? Leave your comments below and one of us will reply!

Ask Ben a Podcast Question

45 thoughts on “Joel Greene Podcast Part 2: How To Reshape Fat Cells, Enhance Repair During Sleep, Target Your “Circaseptan Rhythms,” Build Young Muscle & Get Rid Of Old Muscle.

  1. Mike W says:

    Like others, I have read the book but don’t understand the time frame when a “hack” should start, how long it should go, etc. I thought that the help with when to take the apple peelings was good up-front in the book… but then he lost me. I may have missed something, but does he cover in the book how (from page 13) he manages to go from 229lbs to 212lbs in 7 days? What’s the steps to seeing that happen?

    I am pretty confused at this point.

  2. betsy says:

    I have had a terrible time with customer service with Joel’s team there is no one to call and it’s like they don’t understand what I am literally typing into the emails…. Can someone reach out to Joel for help.

    I have communicated to Joel’s team I don’t have access to the Immunity Crash Course on my dashboard that is associated with my main email address and that I only have access to the Immune Centric Fat Loss Course (I purchased both courses for $149 each), so his team tells me that their platform can’t hold both courses via the same email address and they asked me to give them another email address so they can give me access to the immunity crash course… 

    So, I provide a second email and what happens?  They attach the Immune Centric Fat Loss Course (which I already have access to) instead of the Immunity Crash Course.

    I am completely out of patience at this point because I can’t get anyone to fix it.  Also, Jennifer who is Joel’s assistant is supposed to set up an appointment with me and Joel for a phone consultation that comes with the course as a perk but she totally flaked on me. I wanted to explore the courses so I could refer clients to them but at this point I am going to request a refund for everything except the Immunity Crash Course and if I can get that to work then maybe I will will reinvest in the other things in the future.

    1. betsy says:

      Great news. The account access is fixed, I have an apt with Joel and I am keeping all products. Looking forward to learning.

      1. betsy says:

        Hey Joel, trying to reach you again. The platform dropped me again I can’t get into the course. Sent several emails to your support team the last 2 days, pinged you on linked in but haven’t heard back yet. Thank You!

  3. Al C. says:

    I can’t seem to get past all the scientific chitter-chatter…just get to the point already but the problem is that he never does get to the point. He loves to go on and on about all these chemical compounds with weird names- FGF-21, HIF-1, 4HNE, blah, blah, bla…’Take niacin and omega-3 before bed’. Well- how much? ‘Take Omega-3 while fasting’. Again, he never says how much to take. What source or omega-3? How long does the fast have to be? Etc…etc…etc…One would assume that perhaps he gets into more detail in the book but then people who have read his book complain that he never gets into such detail in the book. What’s the point? All i’m getting from this is that Joel Greene has done a lot of research and has a vast knowledge- or at least he certainly sounds smart- but what good is that if you can’t share the practicality aspect of your knowledge with your audience. Huge fail on his part in my opinion and huge fail on Ben’s part for never asking those questions to clarify for the audience. Instead we’re all here more confused than before listening to the podcast.

  4. gina says:

    Has anyone actually purchased access to one of his programs? I read the book and the lack of an actual plan is frustrating. I’ve been thinking about one of his programs but can’t get enough information. If the steps, dosages, timelines, etc are as vague as in the book it would be pointless. If his program clears all of that up I would sign up today.

    1. Al C. says:

      Completely frustrating and confusing to say the least. Totally useless without information on how to use it in practice.

  5. Katie Manchester says:

    Joel and Ben…do you have an opinion on rectal ozone for the gut bacteria. Good or bad?

  6. Larsen says:

    Is there a way to get daisy cutter specifics? How often, how much and specific foods to utilize beyond green beans?

    Thank You

    1. Al C. says:

      Don’t hold your breath. This guy is so useless when it comes to giving out practical knowledge. Loves to talk and talk but never gets to the meat and potatoes of what he talks about.

  7. Joe Gargano says:

    This was the first time I’ve heard of Jole and he blew my mind. Found his history very amusing as I were there during the 80’s and totally relate to his description of being a consumer from that time through. His take on human nutrition makes a ton of sense to me. I only wish I could get a hard copy of the book (to make notes on) as the website does not seem to be delivering to the UK and its unavailable on Amazon. I’m eager to try some of these protocols.

  8. Brian says:

    Really enjoyed the podcasts and book.
    You mentioned the Amped Keto product you created.
    How and when would you incorporate that product into the 2 Day Immunity Core?

    Thanks for your reply.

  9. GINA says:

    Ben your 20% isn’t working on the keto page

    1. BGF20? It's working on my end. Can you try again and let me know if you're still having trouble?

  10. Dennis says:

    I signed up for the VEEP nutrition and bought the audio book and ebook. I read the ebook and really liked it even though it was a weird format. However, their website does not seem to be working. I’ve emailed a few times and haven’t gotten anything back. I was supposed to also get a 15 one on one with Joel and they haven’t responded about setting that up either. Not sure if Joel is looking at this forum and can respond.

  11. Tad says:

    Anyone have any suggestions for HMOs in Canada? Having a hard time finding anything without having to import it from the US. Th

    1. Marge says:

      Did you ever find any Tad? I’m looking for any good source at this point but I’m also in Canada.

    2. Evan says: ships to Canada

    3. Brigitte Beaudoin says: works well purehmo

  12. Brian says:

    Ben, why did you delete my question regarding Nuchido Time+? I didn’t post anything personal or any profanity, just an objective question. Disappointing, you’re better than that…

    1. Nicole says:

      I see it right below your comment here… :)

  13. Brian says:

    Ben, what are your thoughts on Nuchido Time+? I’ve been taking it for 3 months now, can’t say one way or another what impact it’s had (hard to tell if you can’t measure any specifics). I get what Joel is inferring – watch your inflammation markers before taking NAD supplements. That’s exactly the issue that Nuchido Time+ is trying to address (full details from their site here: What’s your opinion?



  14. Erik says:

    Lots of protocols mentioned, but the one’s discussed the most were never fully revealed. Amounts, duration, contraindication and how to mitigate, etc…

    Perhaps intentional, so listeners would have to purchase the book?.. Usually when a topic is discussed so deeply, Ben pulls out more specific info on how the protocol is actually implemented in real life. It’s a lot of time to invest, listening to both podcasts, and not have any real grasp on how to benefit from the ideas discussed.

    1. Joel says:

      Erik – certainly nothing intentional. There is simply so much ground we have to cover in such a short time. The main gist of that part of our convo was really to introduce a new way of thinking about body fat. It’s a lot more encompassing and isn’t going away any time soon so there will be a lot more discussion and nuance coming

      1. Rick says:

        I listened to the whole audiobook. Joel is obviously very smart and has much need information, but spends far too much time explaining complex science and almost no time giving a clear game plan. He says throughout the book “you will learn” but never seems to actually teach the reader his basic system. Incredibly frustrating to be honest. We need a much more simple action guide with a just fraction of the science.

  15. Becky says:


    I read Joel’s book and would like to implement the ideas, but am having some trouble trying to put all of the info into a logical order/system. Do I do the 2 weeks of apple skins, HMO, phenol powder before I attempt any of the other modules? Or do I start the 2 day core eating right away? Do I do the Daisy Cutter protocol right away or wait until later? At what point do I add the other modules in?

    Anyway, I’m assuming the order of this info is laid out in the Veep nutrition program, but I am unable to purchase it on the website. It says it is out of stock. Is there another way to purchase it?

    1. Nicole says:

      I have the same question! Seeing it’s out of stock…

    2. joel says:

      Hi Becky

      A point I make early on in the book is the to-do’s are skills and that’s not the same thing as a diet or meal plan. So the opening protocol of apple skins/hmo/red phenols is the very first thing I had you do because its the gut is first in an order of operations. But its a skill you can pull out anytime you need to. You don’t need to do it past the 20 days, but periodically, anytime you need to retune the gut. The 2 day core, likewise is a skill. It is something you do every day,. VEEP will be back shortly. I wanted to make sure we onboarded everyone correctly and the demand was very high. It’s a weight loss program and Ben’s audience are mostly biohackers

  16. Wade says:

    I tried Joel’s one-day B Vitamin protocol and holy crap my energy went through the roof and sleep was incredible for a couple of days. Using food for fueling gut bacteria is the best medicine.

    1. M says:

      How /where did you find this protocol? Would be interested to try it out.

      1. Joel says:

        It’s in the Book. It’s there as an experiment where you can prove to yourself the power to immediately effect energy by recolonizing the gut within just a few hours. Really works ,but the greater point is the power available to you once you understand these are skills with food inputs

    2. Erik says:

      What is the one day Vit B protocol?

    3. Joel Greene says:

      Wade – thanks for posting that. Food can do amazing things when sequenced, times and combined correctly Food is the foundation!

  17. Nick Dubose says:

    Hey Ben, I really enjoyed both parts of this podcast. I am going to buy his book to add to my collection, is there a Ben Greenfield code for purchasing his book I did not see one.

  18. Brad says:

    I did not get a chance to listen to the podcast yet, but I did read the outline.
    It’s interesting that NAD may increase inflammation. I did some googling and did see a study that Joel may be relying on.

    Below is a study with a finding that potentially conflicts with the Nature article. In the below study, researchers found that NR (a NAD precursor) may reduce inflammation.

    I can’t say that I read either study. I just read the highlights.

  19. nancy hing says:

    The book is unavailable on Amazon. 😕

    1. Norma Jean Harrod says:

      You can get it at I got both the audio book and digital! So worth it! My stomach is already feeling 1000% better! I have been doing his apple peel and HMO protocol for about 5 or 6 days.

      1. BC says:

        What format is the digital? I emailed them on site and not heard back … I was going to buy both
        But hate reading on iPad … need an ereader format

        1. Norma Jean Harrod says:

          Sorry BC I don’t know. Mine is downloaded to my google drive.

        2. Elenda says:

          You can request that they directly send the ebook to your kindle address. That’s what I did.

      2. Brock says:

        What is your source of HMO? What brand and product? Curious – trying to find a good source online.


      3. BOB says:

        Where did you source the HMO?

        1. The Mad Trainer says:

          Joel recommended the one called PureHMO on Amazon.

  20. Kari says:

    Hello! Is there a transcript for this episode?

  21. David Gibson says:

    Ben –
    How will you be altering your personal protocol and recommendations to readers based on this new paradigm? Time for a revised summary?

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