Joel Greene Podcast Part 1: How To Reboot The Gut, Eat Cheesecake Without Gaining Weight, Amplify Any Fasting Protocol & Maximize Fat Loss.

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My guest on today's podcast, Joel Greene, already had his 10,000 hours in before I was even born.

  • In the 1970s, he was interval training.
  • In 1979, he was doing Olympic lifts 3 hours every night.
  • In the 80s, he began studying MCTs.
  • In 1990, he began studying the keto diet.
  • In the early 90s, he was doing what would be called intermittent fasting today.
  • In the mid 90s, he experienced the rebound from chronic starvation. You read this today for this reason.
  • In the late 90s, he went through his clean eating phase, his macro phase, and his ancestral diet phase.
  • By 2001, he had his first nutrition website publishing cutting edge research.
  • By 2006, he came to the end of all the above and discovered none of it worked over time and under real-life pressure.
  • In 2007, he authored the first article to the health and fitness community based on the new science linking gut bacteria and obesity.
  • In 2008, his website hit #2 on Google for weight loss—with over 1,000 original groundbreaking articles that today represent many of the most widely copied ideas in nutrition.
  • In 2009, he launched the world's first diet system based on targeting gut bacteria.
  • In 2010, he was implementing signal activation of the AMPK pathway. The gurus only began speaking to AMPK in 2017.
  • By 2013, he had the world's largest body of anecdotal outcomes for body composition targeting the gut bacteria.
  • In 2013, he published the first article to the health and fitness community on the dangers of MCT oil supplementation.

Today, at 53, on 1 workout a week, eating whatever, whenever, with no drugs, SARMS, prohormones, or ergogenic aids ever, he is the world leader in hacking the body. He is the real deal. He has done it longer and always been far ahead. He looks it, he lives it. What the gurus say is impossible, he was living every day before they were gurus.

He has hacked peak human…

Working out once per week…

Eating whatever, whenever…

…and does it all on fast food!

He is the future of real-world health and nutrition, today.

Joel is the creator of the VEEP Nutrition System, the world's first commercially available program based on targeting gut communities to effect biomarkers. He is a featured author, speaker, and guest in top tier publications like Muscle and Fitness, 24 Hour Fitness Digital Magazine, CBS Online, Superhuman Radio, and beyond. His system has also been featured on the Dr. Phil Show, where it has delivered astounding life-changing results.

He is the future of real-world health and nutrition—today, and his new book was one of the most nitty-gritty deep dives into “rebooting your body” that I've ever read. The Immunity Code is simply a new paradigm and an entirely new way to think about caring for your body. The new goal is learning to control immunity, health, and aging using new science-based techniques (or hacks, if you will), to steer immunity for health, and to slow or even reverse aging. ​

This book will change everything you know about your body. Starting with simple, easy to-dos that build one on top of the other, you will emerge with a powerful understanding of how your body really works and how to control it over time, in the real world. Simply put, you will jump 10 years ahead of anything else on the shelf today.

Click here to get The Immunity Code: The New Paradigm for Real Health & Radical Anti-Aging now (not available on Amazon, but is available with this link).

During the first part of this discussion, you'll discover:

-A peek into a typical morning for Joel…8:40

  • “Fasting amplification” the day prior and the morning: Ensure signaling pathways for fasting are working (without actually fasting)
  • Timing of the workout (4-6 am)
  • Berberine
  • Apigenin
  • Replicating starvation at the optimal time of day
  • One bodybuilding workout per week: Deadlifts and sprints
  • Difference between a “young” body and a “fitness” body

-Joel's history in the realm of biohacking…14:45

  • Began workout out at a young age watching kids shows on TV
  • Frank Shorter, silver medalist in the 1972 Olympics marathon, began a running fad in the U.S.
  • Joel lived in San Jose, CA, a mecca of sorts for athletics
  • Consumers were told all fat was bad; a product called Metabolol 2 by Champion Nutrition promoted fats as a good thing.
  • MCTs – fatless fats
  • Keto diet became popular in the '90s
  • MetRX – promoted by Jeff Everson
  • Short-term gain, long-term consequences
  • Early 2000s – went from a ripped dude to overweight, chronically stressed while leading a tech company
  • Article on the gut biome
  • This led to the “Daisy Cutter” protocol
  • Key was understanding how to affect gut flora so that the body extracts fewer calories from food
  • Article in Muscle & Fitness magazine on L. Reuteri

-Ben's process for writing a book…29:15

  • Write in chunks
  • Give a timeline (2-3 years)
  • Treat each chapter like an article: skeleton, bullet points, etc.
  • A new cookbook is upcoming (written during quarantine of 2020)

-Why eating apple skins is Joel's first advice for his readers…34:45

  • Breaking down how the gut gets built: substrate and immunity
  • Apple skins contain pectin (good for high-fat diets)
  • Polymerized procyanidins combined with pectins produce 8x akkermansia bacteria than any other food
  • Target LPS (lipopolysaccharides) directly
  • Human milk oligosaccharide (HMOs) are found in mother's milk for infants
  • HMOs:
    • Pair perfectly with apple skins for gut health
    • Act as “decoys”; bind pathogens and viruses
    • Drive akkermansia production
    • Steers the gut toward immunity
    • Steer the macrophages toward restoration of gut lining (with apple skins)
  • Red phenols in the apple peels contain substrate that feeds akkermansia and bifidobacteria

-The two bacteria to focus on for resetting the gut…45:30

  • Akkermansia and bifidobacteria
  • Common in lean people and for longevity
  • Find proper balance in everything: right amount, at the right time, in the right way
  • Akkermansia and bifidobacteria are common among lean people
    • Akkermansia maintains mucin layer of gut surface (calorie controller)
    • Bifidobacteria activates genes that keep a person lean
    • Involved with energy production in cells
  • Fasting-induced adipose factor
  • Bifidobacteria dies off with age, and corresponding energy levels
  • Don't supplement directly with butyrate (can strengthen cancerous cells' resistance)
  • HMO powder (PureHMO brand)
  • Red phenol powder
  • Food is the best transporter

-Why Joel is not a fan of probiotics but loves prebiotics…58:25

  • When having clients use probiotics, they experienced brain fog, SIBO, etc. and it stopped when off probiotics
  • Very difficult to control where they'll open up in the gut
  • Paper in Journal of Gastroenterology on probiotic use
  • Structure-function is why probiotics can't replicate food
  • Food, when done right, is capable of things not possible with capsules and supplements
  • Prebiotic foods: semi-green bananas, grapefruit,
  • Causally incorrect notion of the function of food
  • Order of operations is missing (related to structure-function of the gut)
    • MCT1 transporter doesn't work when gut mucosae are inflamed
    • TNF-A must be cleared before fiber can work (fiber makes an issue worse if not)
    • Clear inflammatory mediators, then rescue butyrate transport
  • Analogy of using the wrong fuel and wondering why the engine won't work
  • 2017 study on gluten intolerance – dysbiotic gut bacteria profile characterized by decreased butyrate production
  • 3 genomes interacting that run the body are in the bacterial genome, which can be acquired via the food you eat

-How orange juice in the morning helps to heal the gut…1:14:30

  • Foods have unique functions that work independently of calories
  • People's personal biases and ideologies skew their thinking regarding the efficacy of certain foods
  • Ascorbate in the orange juice helps to reduce inflammation in the gut
    • Unique foods possess unique functional properties; work independent of calories – true in the plant kingdom, true with meats, true in fats
  • Research suggests ascorbate may have properties that reduce the spread of certain viruses

-How to lose fat by eating cheesecake…1:20:15

  • Real-world parameters regarding food consumption (time, availability, etc.) are problematic
  • The body burns and stores fat multiple times and at different times during the day
  • Ben's cheesecake recipe
  • Eating meals in sequences of 3: develop a natural rhythm of burning and losing fat
  • Fat gain is inevitable, however, you can time it during the times of day the body burns fat vs. storing
  • Use fat loss strategies in other meals throughout the day
  • Adding whey protein, shifting time consumption, temperature of baked potato fluctuates into fat loss friendly

-Whether or not cold thermogenesis is an effective weight loss strategy…1:29:40

  • Cold is a foundational toolset (different functions for different purposes)
  • Cold flips macrophages from inflammatory to non-inflammatory state
  • Cold drives down akkermansia (body needs more energy to survive in cold)
  • FGF 21 induces a “futile cycle” in adipose mass
  • Shrinking fat cells cause a regain of fat mass
  • Cold is good strategically, not as a permanent practice
  • Hack to amplify cold thermogenesis: topical application of menthol where adipose mass is
  • “Combination therapy” – fasting, cold induction, menthol

-How to mitigate the effects of cycling fat loss strategies…1:38:15

  • Fat loss becomes more and more difficult with age
  • Immune-centric paradigm is necessary for fat loss in the 21st Century
  • Change paradigm on how we view fat loss
  • “Fat loss is an injury”
  • Fat is a system of multiple components:
    • Collagen fibers in extracellular matrix
    • Fat cells contain tiny immune cells
    • Preadipocytes are types of stem cells
  • Mechanobiology – transfer of physical forces in the fat cells
  • Traction stress injury
  • Energy gap problem – you want to eat more, but harder to get full and lower metabolism

Click here for the full written transcript of this podcast episode.

Resources from this episode:

– Joel Greene:

Podcast with Dr. Jack Kruse on cold thermogenesis

– Supplements:

– Studies:

– Other Resources:

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Do you have questions, thoughts, or feedback for Joel or me? Leave your comments below and one of us will reply!

Ask Ben a Podcast Question

96 thoughts on “Joel Greene Podcast Part 1: How To Reboot The Gut, Eat Cheesecake Without Gaining Weight, Amplify Any Fasting Protocol & Maximize Fat Loss.

  1. Mike W says:

    I have read the book but have seen nothing about what Joel actually did to go from 229-212lbs in 7days (as mentioned on page 13 of his book.)

  2. Jim says:

    Zero evidence in every single thing he said.

  3. Amy Gray says:

    We were very excited to get Joel’s book. Ordered back in March, we’ll, it’s 7 months later and still no book. I’ve emailed them several times, even confirmed my address, still no book. Super frustrating and bummed, buyer beware!!

    1. Amy Gray says:

      Oops! Dang auto correct- not we’ll, *well

  4. Larry B says:

    Has there been any ‘word’ on using apple peel powder?

    1. Larry B says:

      I actually received a reply from Veep when I reached out directly -> “It is effective. Its not as good as the real thing but it does work”

      1. TL says:

        Thank you for following up on this!!! Been wondering since this episode came out and had purchased the book

      2. Jason says:

        Can I just eat the whole apple or is it just the peal?

  5. J Ladwig says:

    I was really excited to get is book. Ordered on July 18 and still no book. They keep telling me its on the way or they will get me tracking info but nothing. Very disappointing.

    1. Larry B says:

      FYI – I ordered from Amazon – it said a week delivery but arrived in two days.

  6. Cody Beyster says:


    Loved part 1 and looking forward to part 2. I’m going to do more digging into part 1 and read the attached articles that Ben has attached, which is awesome thanks.

    I’m a bit of a newbie when it comes to the details of what was said but have experience being a daily practitioner of health and fitness for last decade or so. More on the fitness side!

    I’m hoping to learn as much as I can and I’m even considering going back to college or school or get some certification so that I can take courses and understand more.

    As a coach/trainer I want to help the individuals I work with better. I want to be well rounded and have really loved adding in Ben’s podcast. It’s been getting my mind stimulated and focused.

    A few questions come to mind:

    1. My wife has Crohn’s. She recently as of 6-8 months ago stopped her infusion and has gone on a “mostly” plant based diet. I’ve listened to the podcast on the Carnivore Code and afternoon listening to this podcast, I’m curious the thoughts around combating and healing her gut?

    2. Any podcasts from Ben that would be beneficial to listening to? (I’ve looked and will continue to look, cause I’m sure it’s there)

    3. Is there any correlation with mental health and what was stated in this podcast? i.e if someone is severely depressed or anxious, or both, can implementing these strategies help?

    I look forward to learning more and my passion for health & fitness has led me to want to become better on the nutritional side of things.


    Ps. “It’s just jiu jitsu with food” had me laughing pretty good!

  7. Physician and long time listener here…

    I too am looking for:

    1. a protocol and proper way to introduce apple skins.

    2. A good link for HMO’s

    Is Holigos a good source of HMO or not comprehensive enough?

    1. Philips Shoemaker says:

      Followed Joel’s code about HMO and apple peels, alleviated my long-term IBS. HMO Joel recommends seems to be in really high quality.

      Here is the PureHMO I used:
      Apple peel: cut a few apples a day, blend them and add a few spoons of sugar. Taste great though.

  8. Kelly says:

    Enjoying the book. I have to say I wish editing had been done to make it clearer. the lack if dosing and specifics on some of the todo’s is concerning.

    At the moment I have a specific question about the Signal Amplification101 todo (p78). Joel says to eat raw black beans? Don’t uncooked beans contain toxic lectins? Should they be soaked at least? There’s no info about how one should actually go about doing this safely.


    1. Shelley says:

      He said cooled. Soak, cook, then cool them.

    2. Mike W says:

      I wish he had included an index in the book. Also, I don’t believe I’ve seen one footnot referencing any studies,

  9. T maxwell whittelsey says:

    Also came looking for a decent hmo recommendation; so many of these baby formulas don’t list the amounts.

  10. B says:

    How much gelatin should you eat before bed or in the afternoon?

    1. Paige says:

      I was hoping to get Ben’s recipe for the “jello” he makes with coconut water. He said he has been eating it before bed time. Thought I would give it a try!

  11. Ajay says:

    Hello Joel,

    Mind blowing podcast. I have ordered your book but it is yet to arrive.

    I am looking for baby steps. If apple peel is the first way forward, my question is how much apple peel should we aim for ? 2-3 apples ? Is red apple better than yellow ones ?


  12. Zuleika Javed says:

    I am completely new to bio hacking and found this podcast very interesting. I am however confused about whether we are to take the hmo powder dry or mix it with water and drink it? Or make a smoothie with the apple peels and hmo powder?

    1. David says:

      Its all in the book.

  13. j says:

    My opinion, the book has some issues: punctuation/editing, lack of/incomplete instruction or dosing, etc. It would be nice if there was a follow-up podcast, or something, with the questions/comments addressed here regarding confusion/how to/dosing/etc. being answered.

    1. Mike says:

      This is true. I purchased the book and the audiobook. Some editing/clarification needed. Book never says when/if to STOP the apple skin regimen, for example.

  14. Kevin says:

    Is anyone else having trouble with the link on his website to purchase the book?

    1. Amber says:

      The website is not working for me either. When I click checkout nothing happens.

  15. Aerts René Jr. says:

    is there a discount code for the book and masterclass of Joel…he’s amazing and want to learn a lot from him, Ben, thanks for the opportunities you give us to ear such knowledge, your book is also fantastic…reading it bits by bits….greetings from a huge fan in Belgium

  16. Gary says:

    The whey cheat meal hack is due to pre cheat meal insulin spike from the whey. Insulin lowers blood glucose AUC but where do you think the glucose is going? Does it disappear? Insulin isn’t going to decrease fat gain! Complete BS!

    1. Joel says:


      You are absolutely sure about that Gary? HIgher area under the curve has clearly been correlated to weight gain. You are conflating the amount of calories with the rate at which calories are absorbed. Slowing the rate of glucose utilization, i.e. AUC mitigates weight gain and it’s fairy easy to establish. Further, total food intake at subsequent meals has been shown to be lowered by whey preload meal. Even further, whey has been shown to potentiate insulin function and offset high fat intake of subsequent meals.

  17. Gary says:

    Using whey protein to improve glucose AUC will be do to the fairly potent insulin spike that it causes. So basically you are getting some pre-cheat meal insulin produced.

    How in the hell does this prevent fat gain? This may be great for mass gains or mitigating damage from high blood glucose.

    Totally misleading to equivocate lower glucose AUC to less fat gain. Do you think insulin makes the calories and glucose disappear?!


    1. Joel says:

      And repeating the above.


      You are absolutely sure about that Gary? HIgher area under the curve has clearly been correlated to weight gain. You are conflating the amount of calories with the rate at which calories are absorbed. Slowing the rate of glucose utilization, i.e. AUC mitigates weight gain and it’s fairy easy to establish. Further, total food intake at subsequent meals has been shown to be lowered by whey preload meal. Even further, whey has been shown to potentiate insulin function and offset high fat intake of subsequent meals.

  18. Tom says:

    What about modified citrus pectin?

  19. Marshall Spencer says:

    darn it! his book is out of stock on amazon – great podcast!

    1. joel says:


      You can get it at

  20. Will Shriner says:

    Crazy question, can you take apple peels and predigest them like a sauerkraut? Hear me out, you are trying to make buterates so I assume if you leave them on the counter and seed them with bifidobacteria, then you would double the punch. Yes, there will probably be a lot of bits left to fuel your gut, but does this just create a big mash of alcohol and apple cider vinegar that would be like trying to eat jet fuel? Plus, this would probably quadruple the amount of bacteria that could spread through your gut. Trying to hack this further because I don’t want to be skinning apples every day, when I could just put dozens in a car at one time.

    1. Erik says:

      Not so crazy. I was wondering the same thing as I was listening, but for a different reason. If you fermented the apple skins with Bifidobacterium in advance, maybe you have less of a pectin load to deal with. Not sure if that’s how it would work out, but might be worth exploring.

      1. Joel says:

        Hi Erik

        Fermentation in the gut will allow the bacteria to ferment in the right spot, which is why my preference is to let the food do the work. I’ve become leary of putting bacteria in the gut exogenously. Just seen too many people develop SIBO issues.

  21. Catherine says:

    Great show! Joel truly gets to the root of all the mishmash of information out there about why different diets work. Have a question regarding a colonoscopy that I have upcoming. I am now concerned that my good gut flora will be wiped out. I am a healthy, lean woman just getting it for cancer screening but now am wondering what this will do for my longterm health. Is there any evidence out there that the prep truly causes issues for individuals already with healthy gut flora?

    1. Joel says:

      Hi Catherine

      Probably, from the antibotics alone. But thats not a bad thing. The great thing about the microbiota is they are so rapidly colonizable. Post surgery its a blank slate and you can steer things towards the really healthy bacteria.

  22. Mike says:

    Hi Ben or Joel.

    The link to the recommended HMO is sold out. There’s not many other supplement options out there and I don’t recognize the brands to know if they’re reliable/clean. Ben talked about baby formula, but the ingredient lists look horrendous with sugar, industrial seed oils and preservatives. Is there a clean baby formula or another supplement one of you can recommend?


    1. Matt says:

      Ever figure out another brand Mike? Finding the same problem…

    2. elia says:

      I have found this one but I dont know them, it looks clean and theire brand seems legit but again never tried them

    3. Joel says:

      Hi MIke

      I hear that a lot. Personally, I have just used the baby formula and mix it with Whey. I had Mark Bell use it post contest and it cured his lifelong lactose intolerance. If you ping our support they can send you some links

  23. Joe D says:

    Great Podcast! Joel provided some really interesting an awesome information that seems to be unique and very well researched.

    Joel- I have IBD (UC) and am wondering where I can find some more information about your approach. Does your book have any detailed information that would be helpful for this, or is there another source you could point to for information?

    Thank you!!!


    1. Joel says:

      Hey Joe

      What I suggest is to take some of the protocols in the book and find a practitioner who would help you Implement. I would suggest to start with the GUT SOS protocol from ch21 – the amino’s. The inflammed gut really needs those first and then the HMO and phenols right no the heels of that. The Inflammation spin down in the book also is something I would get with a practitioner about and do an implement.

      1. Larry B says:

        FYI – Maybe I missed it but looked 3 times – the SOS Gut Protocol does not appear to be in the physical book although it is in the e-book. For some reason, I’ve lost access to the ebook but would love to see this again.

  24. Mathias Vestergaard says:

    With this approach on the gut and fixing the microbiome which can help on intolerances like better digestion of gliadin. would you, Ben, implememt gluten to your diet or at least be less gluten scared?
    Im not intolerante, but have cut out gluten based on the “Bread head” and your information on gluten in your book.
    I think that for the common person, and high achievers as well, that it would ease up the daily diet “battle”, especially when eating out and beeing social.

    I Hope hearing from you!

    Best regards Mathias 😊

  25. Scott Hayes says:

    Awesome podcast- both Joel and Ben did a great job of putting out some advanced and novel content in a way that’s easy to comprehend. I’ve been mentoring under Joel for the last 6 months and the knowledge I’ve gained has been invaluable. Being in the fitness and nutrition realm for over 20 years, I’ve learned a lot from some high-level people but none of them have compared to Joel. When I first discovered him, I spent hours reading articles on his old site It was very apparent that he was years ahead of everyone else in his field. In the mid 2000’s, Joel was putting out content and implementing ideas that the so-called experts of this era are just now touting. It’s apparent from this podcast along with his book that the same holds true today. Speaking of his book, here is just one strategy that I’ve used with phenomenal results:
    Like many others, I’ve had significant cravings for sweet foods. After implementing Joel’s method of recolonizing the gut, I was able to totally eliminate cravings after just one week. Just 3 days in, I noticed a substantial difference.
    Joel’s got some amazing (potentially world changing) goals and it’s great to see him finally get the recognition he deserves. He has a huge heart and is truly sincere in helping others improve their lives through nutrition and implementing numerous and practical lifestyle “hacks.” Unlike many other authority figures, Joel does the research, applies theories to himself thereby converting them into methods and then uses those methods to achieve results in thousands of others.
    As you heard in the podcast, he has experienced the adverse reactions of many different types of diets. His book contains everything you need to combat those issues.
    Buy it- the meal sequencing and offsetting information alone are worth double the price of the book:)

  26. Joe says:

    Great Episode!

  27. michelle p says:

    I’m wondering if apples are the only fruit, lots of fruit (blueberries in particular ) are high in pectin.

    1. Emma Baumann says:

      I really want a answer on this to, im allergic to apples (stone fruits)…

      1. Leonardo says:

        An apple is not a stone fruit.

  28. Paul says:

    Hi Ben/Joel,

    Great podcast, gave me a list of topics to start looking into!

    One thing I’d like clarification on:

    “In 2013, he published the first article to the health and fitness community on the dangers of MCT oil supplementation.”

    Can these dangers be clarified or a link provided to this article? I’d like to learn more about this.


    1. Beverly Gula says:

      Yes, I was wondering that as well. Great question. I have a hard time with MCT oil on my stomach. I have heard conflicting comments about coconut oil. I look forward to someone answering the above as well as any pros and cons of coconut oil. Thanks.

      1. Joel says:

        Hi Beverly

        Here you go. Links to research are there as well

    2. Joel says:


      Here you go. it was published both on my site and to social media. Here is the FB article showing the intact dates

  29. ben says:

    Any thoughts on taking pectin powder (like the kind used to make jellies), in order to feed Akkermansia?

    Or supplementing with the Akkermansia bugs directly? Kevin Rose had a great episode with PendulumLife CEO.

  30. Kristie says:

    Can u please let me know how to do apple peels…please. I get lost when I have to read a book. This is why I listen to Podcasts the most.

    Thank u

    1. Sy says:

      Start by planting about 3 apple trees. Come back when you are done.

    2. Norma Jean Harrod says:

      I get organic apples… peel and eat. I’ve been doing it for 4 days now (along with a scoop of HMO) and I already feel better. Get the book… he also has an audio book. Worth every cent!!

      Thank you Ben for bringing Joel on your podcast. It’s really opened my eyes to a new way of eating. I’m going to share many of his ideas to my clients!! So exciting!!

      1. Mike H says:

        What HMO supplement are you using?

      2. Joel says:

        Thank you Norma and thanks Ben. He has such a great audience.

      3. Jennifer says:

        this is so encouraging to hear :) thank you for sharing…does it go into detail on how much to be taking of what? i need things laid out and i don’t wanna hurt myself guessing or have put in the effort without it being effective. i really need to loose weight, i’m too weak to exercise enough to loose weight that way and need to do it with food…everytime i just gian the weight back…it’s depressing.

      4. Javier says:

        Hey Norma,

        What do you do with the rest of the apple? I wish there was an easier alternative to the apple skins

  31. Justin says:

    I love the thrill of learning about something new for the first time and realizing what a huge game changer it is, in this case it’s ” akkermansia”. Awesome stuff, looking forward to reading Joels book as well. Thanks guys

  32. Al says:

    I found this podcast fascinating as someone who has wrestled with gut health as a means to get autoimmune issues under control so will definitely be getting the book. I’ve had success with extended fasting and carnivore but can’t help but think the restrictive nature isn’t sustainable long term from a psychological perspective. Also, if I can’t eat a bit if bread without getting a flair up then obviously my gut hasn’t healed sufficiently. A recent gut panel showed that I had almost no Akkermansia and Bifidobacterium present which is why this resonated so much for me. I am going to implement some of the mechanisms you mentioned here from the apple skins, HMO and red phenols.

    In the absence of any readily available HMO supplements (based in the UK) I’m going to give some baby formula a try- is the dosage of HMO in them enough to have an impact? I also listened to your podcast with Mark Bell where you spoke about this as well and how successful it was for him.

    Thanks for your insights.

    1. Gary says:

      Same here! Cleared psoriasis with same approach but holiday eating wrecked me. I want resilience and more variety. I’m going to try Similac Pro-Total Comfort since it uses hydrolyzed whey and some colostrum too. I’m tolerating the apple peels fine so far. Good luck!

    2. Steve says:

      What gut test did you do?

  33. Jennifer says:

    Is there a step by step program in the book…imma recovering chronic illness, homeschooling mother of 2…I need things laid out…I’m still learning

    I’m soooooo so interested in this as a way of living but don’t want to waste money if there isn’t a program break down. Can anyone help with this please?

    1. Gary says:

      He recommends supplements with no mention of dosage, for example Niacin. Very sloppy!

      1. Jennifer says:

        that makes me SUPER nervous ….uhggggg i thought i finally found something to help me loose weight and keep it off…been crying all day beacuse of this issue…

  34. Jeffrey Sams says:

    Just to make sure… Does Organifi Red Juice have a pretty good load of red phenols?

    1. Dominic Harte says:

      Hi Jeffrey,

      I’m a certified crotch sniffer. Yes, it has a good load, aka aka a shitload. Even better, just drink one tub in one go. But before you do this, you will need to complete my life coach course. Guaranteed to make you 10 billion dollars in 5 days. All you have to do is give me all of your money. Then you, will, become, a champion…p.s. don’t eat any real whole foods with the colour red in them, otherwise you will die of deadly evil toxic demonic overload. My mate was a mormom ex-navy seal chef, his skin went purple. Never say never again. Hail Mercurius.

    2. Gary says:

      I’d use Pure Encapsulations Poly-Prebiotic. Most red powders are from the juice. You want skin and whole fruit.

  35. Rob says:

    I am 10% of the way into his book, and really enjoying it. It would be super cool if Ben’s website could put together a “package” 90 day supply of everything needed. It would probably be a large $$$ amount, but I would buy in a second because it would take the uncertainty about product selection away, and save readers a ton of time. Just an idea.

    1. Jennifer says:

      Are you finding it easy to read and follow? As far as a real protocol being laid out? I really really want to follow this but am worried the book won’t streamline

      1. Chris says:

        I’m finding it a struggle to follow. Like the first “To Do”:

        Day 1-3: Eat skins of 2 apples,
        Day 4-5: Eat skins of 4 apples,

        When to take: Mornings.

        Ah… ok… What about day 6? Empty stomach or with breakfast? Do I just chuck out all the effing apples for eternity?

        1. Gary says:

          Agreed! But he mentions you want the pectin too which cones from stewed apples. I eat both. NO DOSAGES ON SUPPLEMENT RECOMMENDATIONS@

  36. Tim says:

    Can you get the brand of HMO that you have to get through a provider?
    Also- this said part 1 – will Joel be back for another interview?

  37. Kira Miftari says:

    Regarding the apple peels: Apples today (including organic) are sold with a wax coating on the skin to extend shelf life… It is complete pain in the a to get rid of them… I am wondering if the Apple peel powder would do the job? Hoping they don’t produce it from the waxed apples as well …

    1. Dave says:

      Thanks for another interesting interview. I second this question of how to utilize apple peels. Buying apples just for the peels seems like a waste. I didn’t see many apple peel powder products out there and it seems important to get a good quality one because of the concentration. Anyone have any good pointers or ideas here?

      1. Gary says:

        Stew the apples to release the pectin and consume an amount based on FODMAP tolerance

    2. Anson Castelvecchi says:

      I’m curious about this too.

  38. Noah says:

    Great Podcast, I have applied many of the ideas mentioned in the book. After doing the apple peels, HMOs, and Red Phenol Powder, I decided to do the Daisy Cutter. But after 5 days my gas was so awful and I could hardly use the restroom. Did I miss something?

    1. John says:

      Where did you buy red phenol?

  39. Leon D Fairbanks says:

    I checked Amazon for Joel’s book. It is listed as out of print. What’s up?

    1. there's a link to it right there in the shownotes!

      1. Leon D Fairbanks says:

        Yes, but why would it be listed as out of print. Are there old editions that are out of print?

    2. Joel says:

      You can find it at

  40. Eric says:

    It is perhaps the most frustrating health book I have read in years. The book may be loaded with powerful techniques to hack the body. On the other hand, it may all be malarkey. I gave up on it, based upon the following.

    Chaotic Presentation

    In early chapters he recommends eating the skin of certain fruit, and then adding in HMO after a few days. After those early chapters, the hack is completely ignored until it is briefly mentioned along with dozens of other techniques. I was expecting a comprehensive, step-by-step process.

    False Information

    He says that you can buy HMO directly from his website. Not true.

    Incompetent Writing

    He does not understand the difference between ‘affect’ and ‘effect’. I understand the desire to self-publish, but how difficult is it to hire a proofreader? Or an editor?

    Scrambled Sentences

    “Pulling the fat cell back into position with the to fix . . . “

    Claims Heat Shock Proteins are Bad

    This is the one which soured me on the whole book. He writes, ‘. . . lingering inflammatory signals from heat shock proteins can provoke weight gain!’ I imagine this revelation will come as a complete shock to Rhonda Patrick. Saunas increase HSPs, therefore, frequent sauna users must be obese, right? Not according to a scientific study ( JAMA Intern Med. 2015;175(4):542-548 ) of Finnish male sauna users, where the average age was 53 and average BMI was 26.9. (Compare that to American men aged 40-59 who have an average BMI of 29.4).

    1. Joel says:

      First, thank you for your response and at least giving the book a go. I’m sorry your experience of the book was not to your preference. The reviews so far have been extremely positive but a few negatives are always to be expected. Nothing works for everyone, and I sincerely wish you the best in all of your fitness and health endeavors. If I can ever be helpful don’t hesitate to dm me directly on my insta. Per your concerns I think I addressed the HMO thing pretty well in the podcast.

      I wanted to address your issue with heat shock proteins, as I think it adds value to the overall ecosystem to have an accurate understanding of them. In fact it’s so important, I have decided I will do a video series on this topic. I want to do a quick summary here but I will dive in greater detail in some videos upcoming.

      The incredulity in your statement seems to stem from the notion that heat shock proteins could be anything other than beneficial. New ideas are often met with vitriol until they become mainstream. There are two really important points to address here. The first is to deal with the prevalent notion that heat shock proteins are only good/protective/benefical. The second is the really ground breaking one, that heat shock proteins post fat loss are associated with and most likely drive weight regain.

      To the idea that heat shock proteins are only good, this fits squarely into a very important set of ideas in the book – balance, biological duality, and baby talk. The net of these ideas is that most things work both ways and can be either good or bad. It depends on context, tissue, timing and other factors. I use HIF-1 in the book as the primary example. Heat shock proteins also fit squarely into this more exacting and correct view. The idea HSP’s are only beneficial is simply incorrect and a mythos that needs dispelling.

      THE OLD: Heat shock proteins are only good.
      THE NEW: Heat shock proteins are critical immune regulators. They can be beneficial. They can also be detrimental.

      The idea that heat shock proteins can in fact be detrimental is at odds with the current mythos they are only good. Yet this is very readily evident. Depending on the type of heat shock protein, pathogen generated or endogenous, intra cellular or extra cellular, the tissue expressed, the context ( i.e. fat loss) and the duration, there can be detrimental aspects to their continued presence all centering around transduction of immune signals. Here are a just a few known issues.

      HSP 70 is over expressed in most types of tumors and drives cancer progression. Targeting the reduction of HSP 70 over expression is an emerging cancer therapy.
      HSP 60 is a key mediator of Il-1b and the inflammasome. Reduction of HSP 6-0 has been shown to reduce inflammation and inflammasome activation .
      Increased levels of heat shock protein (HSP) 27, HSP60 and HSP70 all correlate to weight regain after weight loss
      Heat Shock protein overexpression can drive auto immune issues such as when HSP 60 is over expressed and drives

      For space sake, I won’t go deeper into this aspect, suffice to say that heat shock proteins can be highly beneficial, but also can drive pathology and I think these points readily show that.

      For our purposes here, I want to focus more on heat shock proteins post fat loss. The idea that heat shock proteins post fat loss can drive weight regain is a brand new idea in the public awareness. I think my book is the first mass market vehicle to introduce the idea. The supporting research for a role with heat shock proteins post fat loss and weight regain is really ground breaking. Merimman and his colleagues were able to show that heat shock proteins, 27, 60 and 70 are clearly elevated in people who regain weight after fat loss due to cellular stress and ECM stiffening, which itself is potentiated by actomyosin affinities with heat shock proteins to drive cellular stress proteins and stiffening. A difficulty in parsing this idea is that heat shock proteins can also be highly beneficial in the case of things like obesity, and metabolic function. So it’s not a black and white proposition. Like most things in the body, it’s very nuanced and complex. For example, EXTRACELLULAR HSP 70 can activates pro inflammatory pathways, oxidative stress and a lot of negatives. INTRACELLULAR HSP 70 is has a powerful reducing effect on inflammation. The idea Heat shock proteins are only good is simply one dimensional baby talk.

      In the book I position balance as the highest truth of health. Ironically, this is exactly what newer theories about heat shock proteins postulate – that a balance of types of heart shock proteins decide weather or not they drive inflammation or resolve it. And while I am long here, to sum this up

      Can heat shock proteins drive inflammation? Yes.
      Are heat shock proteins associated with weight regain? Yes
      Is there a possible mechanistic association between HSP’s and the actomyosin cytoskeleton driving weight regain? Yes

      And while I have only touched on these details in this limited space, more will be coming. So Eric, a thank you. Your criticism has actually helped provide the ecosystem better information on a very misunderstood topic. Again, don’t hesitate to reach out if you ever have questions on the book.



      1. Gary says:

        The book is frustrating because it has much info directed towards gut dysfunction but so many recommendations are high FODMAP. I understand go slow, etc. but it doesn’t offer the practical step by step like a book such as Dr. Ruscio Healthy Gut Healthy You. Read that book to see how to lay out practical information. Referencing the AGA to discourage probiotic use is kind of humorous considering everyone here in the Functional Medicine space is trying to get away from pharma influenced medicine. Pharma doesn’t make money on probiotics nor do MD’s.

        1. T maxwell whittelsey says:

          You were saying mr. know it all ?

  41. Kaplan Michael says:

    Great information but get to the point ! Way to much useless chatter. Who has hours to listen to all that ?

    1. JimaLee Painter says:

      I love this podcast. For me, the interview with Joel Greene was spot-on. Ordered the book using your link (e-book also), and am considering the “system”. l heard so much that was personally relevant. The asides seemed to lead to interesting places also. Thanks for a great listen, can’t wait for Part II.

    2. Skysky says:

      I do and it was excellent no ones making you listen

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