June 1, 2024

From podcast: https://bengreenfieldlife.com/podcast/thomas-incledon/

[00:00:00] Introduction

[00:01:27] Who is Dr. Thomas Incledon and what does he do?

[00:06:06] Treating cancer with exercise and oxygen therapy

[00:09:04] How does exercise with oxygen therapy kill cancer?

[00:12:28] The effect of intermittent hypoxic training and hyperbaric

[00:15:28] Dr. Incledon's team

[00:16:58] Causenta Clinic tour – oxygen therapy equipment

[00:19:30] The benefits of red lights

[00:21:02] Electrical muscle stimulation and Neuro 20 EMS suite

[00:25:38] Cancer patient gene testing

[00:28:55] The risks of hypoxic training

[00:30:57] Blood flow restriction

[00:32:17] Other exercising strategies

[00:35:36] Combining red light with PEMF

[00:37:47] Ben going through the demo procedure

[00:49:11] Closing the Podcast

[00:50:16] End of Podcast

[00:51:17] Legal Disclaimer

Ben:  My name is Ben Greenfield. And, on this episode of the Ben Greenfield Life podcast.

Thomas:  I saw a lot of different medical conditions from neurological conditions to autoimmune conditions to cancer that people were responding. And so, I was hired by a company to investigate how is this working. And so, I said, “Well, one possible mechanism is through the immune system.” So, I really focused on running a lot of tests over different protocols.” And, we came up with a couple of findings that I didn't see anywhere on the internet. I didn't see anywhere in a classic research that everybody talks about, the stepwise progression therapy from some of the older textbooks on anaerobic threshold training and stuff like that. And basically, what I saw is that if we got people breathing oxygen, once they got between 500 and 1,000 calories, their tumor started to shrink. With time, the exercise with oxygen therapy increases the magnitude of the response, so more cells going out killing but also increases the precision. They're not just killing anything, they're killing cancer.

Ben:  Fitness, nutrition, biohacking, longevity, life optimization, spirituality and a whole lot more. Welcome to the Ben Greenfield Life show. Are you ready to hack your life? Let's do this.

So, I've known about this guy for years, an OG in, I don't know if you'd call it medicine or health or fitness or perhaps all three. His name is Dr. Thomas Incledon. And, I've read some of the things he's written. I've listened to some of his interviews. And again, I've known about him for a while, but really have never had the chance to interview Tom until now. And Tom, you're probably best equipped to explain to people what your background is, what exactly it is that you do here. We're sitting here at Causenta in Scottsdale, C-A-U-S-E-N-T-A. If you want the shownotes, you want to check this place out. I'll link to everything Tom and I talk about at BenGreenfieldLife.com/Causenta. Again, C-A-U-S-E-N-T-A.

But Tom, tell me a little bit about what this place is, what you do and how you got into this. 

Thomas:  So, this place has become sort of this constantly expanding giant collection of tech technology from around the world.

Ben:  Sounds like my basement.

Thomas:  Yeah. So, the difference, always keep in mind, is we actually could put catheters in people's arms and we could collect data pre- and post-. So, I know more about a lot of gadgets than the people that actually make the gadgets. So, they'll tell me stuff like, “Oh, my machine gets more nutrients in a cell.” I'm like, “No, it doesn't.” And like, “How do you know?” “Well, because I've actually measured over a thousand people doing it.” Because the people come here, basically they're curious. They want to know, “Is this helping me or not?” So, we basically focus on measuring molecules that everybody needs to know about, but most people, it's not attractive enough to them or they don't understand how to interpret it or it's just not something in their normal wheelhouse. We're in a world where instant gratification. I want to use it. I want results yesterday, right?

Ben:  Yeah.

Thomas:  And so, I mean, I still operate on that myself but then at a certain point, you're like, “Hey, how do I notice it's helping me giving it time or money or whatever effort you're putting into it?” You want to know, is it not conflicting with something else you're doing? So basically, what we started doing is we started giving people the opportunity to come in here and think of it as they could do their own n of 1 study. So, whether someone wants to just lift weights and I can draw their blood and measure all the stuff around a workout or whether someone wants to run. It doesn't really matter what you want to do. We could just basically measure anything you want before immediately after and then multiple time points later.

So, from that, I've been able to discover things like no one else in the world has been ever to discover. So, for example, I first learned about exercise with oxygen therapy around 2015. Other guys already talking about it before then, but I looked at every single guy was just reposting the same thing everybody else was posting. I'm like, “Who did you measure?” “Well, no one.” “So, you're saying these things happen but you never put a catheter in a guy's arm, drew his blood, and see what happens?”

Ben:  Right, besides maybe a pulse ox.

Thomas:  Yeah. Right, right. So, I started doing entire lymphocyte panels and started measuring cytotoxic T lymphocytes, natural killer cells, and then every hormone that could be measured and all these antioxidants and thousands of molecules or different cell lines. And then, we started seeing some things, and like whoa, how do we reproduce that? In other words, let's say I measure you and you're at 100, let's say. Well, measure me, I'm at a 10 and I want to get to 100. Now, what do I have to do to get my 10 to your 100, right? And, that's when you say, “Wait a minute, I'm low in K2 and then this K2 have a relationship between immune responses.”

And, the reality is we know every cell in our body needs every single molecule like oxygen, water, vitamins, minerals, essential amino acids–

Ben:  Yeah, micronutrients, vitamins, minerals, fatty acids, amino acids. Yeah.

Thomas:  Right. So, if you're low, there's a penalty somewhere whether you realize it or not, right? And so, if I just happen to be low in something and not know it, I'm not going to get the best possible results from all the other stuff. So, I always encourage people make sure you know your basics because you're not going to get the best result from creatine or testosterone or whatever other supplement if you're missing this foundational stuff.

And, it's surprising, every human I've tested over 200,000 people, the number of people that actually know this basic stuff before they get here is less than I could count on one hand.

Ben:  I have to ask you since you brought it up and I do it two or three times a week. Does exercise with oxygen therapy work?

Thomas:  Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, without a doubt. I guess, we'll define how you mean work though. So first, let me just reframe the question a little bit.

Ben:  Yeah.

Thomas:  So, I primarily see people that have very serious health issues right now. I still work with–

Ben:  And, that's important because I think a lot of people would look at watching the video version of jerseys on the wall on the professional athletes, this is not just a high-end performance facility, you're treating people who are diseased.

Thomas:  Yeah. Okay. So, to connect some of these sort of abstract concepts. I worked with NFL, Super Bowl-winning teams and World Series, winning basketball. I mean, my baseball players and all these let's say high-level athletes. And then, these guys had family members and they got sick and then you see all of a sudden, they're in this otherworld and the quality care sucked. It was just terrible.

Think of it this way. You're a football player, you go down on the field. They're MRIng you right on the sidelines or going in a tunnel and they have results instantly practically. Now, you got cancer and you got to wait three weeks to get a scan. You know what I mean? So, it's a different world–

Ben:  Yeah, insurance approval [00:07:16] _____.

Thomas:  Right, exactly. And, I'm like, “This doesn't make any sense.” And then, the care team that's supposed to be working together to help this person beat this terrible illness, who's on vacation, who's not getting back till next week, and so it was very discombobulated. And, I started seeing there's all the stuff that just wasn't done. And so, that kind of led to me getting this reputation for helping all these athlete family members. A lot of guys–

Ben:  I was kind of wondering how you went from performance to disease. That's interesting.

Thomas:  Yeah. And then, one guy's like, “Hey, my dad's got this. Hey, my mom's got this. My cousin, my brother, whatever.”

When I was 9, my babysitter died from a brain tumor. And, just to kind of put things in perspective, when I was 9, so I'm 57 now but let's say roughly 50 years ago, no one knew what cancer was. Today, I say cancer, no one ever asked me what is that, everyone either has had it or knows someone that's had it. It's not a scary new word. It's a scary word but it's not new. Everybody's–it's in their vocabulary now.

So, in 50 years, we went from not knowing anything until everybody knows it. And so, just because the relationships, all these people and then seeing all the results of the family members, it really took off. Now, we always work with people with cancer, but it's kind of this you see Ray Lewis, Bill Romanowski, the studs of the past walking out. People know who they are because they've been on TV. So, that name gets out there. You see some guy that's never been on TV with cancer walking out, no one says, “Oh, look who that is.” They don't know who he is, right? And so, some of that's just media bias and just entertainment bias.

Ben:  Yeah.

Thomas:  And so, getting back to the EWOT, does it work? So, what I've seen is that if I saw a lot of different medical conditions from neurological conditions to autoimmune conditions to cancer that people were responding. And so, I was hired by a company to investigate how is this working. And so, I said, “Well, one possible mechanism is through the immune system.” So, I really focused on running a lot of tests over different protocols and we came up with a couple of findings that I didn't see anywhere on the internet. I didn't see anywhere in the classic research that everybody talks about. The stepwise progression therapy from some of the older textbooks on anaerobic threshold training and stuff like that.

And basically, what I saw is that if we got people breathing oxygen, once they got between 500 and 1,000 calories, the tumor started to shrink. That's without any treatments like any chemotherapy–

Ben:  When you say 500 to–

Thomas:  Thousand calories.

Ben:  500 to 1,000 calories, meaning that's what they were metabolizing during an exercise session?

Thomas:  So, on there, say to the ellipticals we have here are Cybex Arc Trainers. I'm not promoting the brand or anything, but just so that you know what we're de doing. So, we program it so the resistance or the load is 400 pounds and that's the standardized for everyone. And then, we have the incline at 10 degrees incline and then we have it start somewhere around 30% but let's just say 30. Then, they just pedal till they hit 500 calories on the screen.

Ben:  Okay.

Thomas:  And then, when they get more fit, to a thousand. And then, somewhere in that zone of 500 to 1,000 total calories for that session, they just see cancer disappear.

Ben:  Is that because cancer thrives in an anaerobic environment and you're creating an aerobic environment?

Thomas:  Well, you're doing a lot of things. So first, to kind of focus on the immune system aspects first, we see an increase in cytotoxic T lymphocytes and natural killer cells in a range of 27 million to 27 billion for one person.

Ben:  Wow.

Thomas:  So, in 15 minutes, here's their immune system and it's say normal. Nothing wrong with it. But now, after 15 minutes, they're way up here. So, you have dramatic increase in the immune cells leaving the spleen going out to circulation, right? So basically, with time, the exercise with oxygen therapy increases the magnitude of the response so more cells going out killing but also increases the precision. They're not just killing anything, they're killing cancer. They're real precise now. So, there's that advantage that you wouldn't get from laying in the bed doing nothing.

Ben:  Yeah.

Thomas:  Plus now, you also have increased circulation. You're getting more oxygen into the tumor. So, a lung tumor or something. You're basically getting reversal of the dysfunction of blood flow. So normally, it's kind of like when someone has cancer, you get blood going where you don't want it so it can grow and not enough blood going where you do want it to fight it. And, exercise kind of reverses that. And, we're starting to see now evidence from other groups that, “Hey, exercise volume may be important.” I'm like, “This has been known for 100 years.” Just look around people that exercise have a lower incidence of cancer in general.

Ben:  Yeah.

Thomas:  So, it's not like exercise keeps you from ever getting it because there's too many chemicals in the environment to damage DNA for that right now, but it definitely prevents it from kicking in sooner.

Ben:  Somebody couldn't exercise due to joint limitation or maybe they're just sick. Could you get somewhat similar effect from intermittent hypoxic training like using a Cell Gym or one of these units where you sit next to it and breathe oxygen that's alternating back and forth between hypoxia and hyperoxia?

Thomas:  So, I would say in general not the same response. So, think of it this way. Let's say I have a guy hit by a car, and this guy, hypothetical guy, he can't move for, let's say, spinal cord injury and he also has cancer. So, the way I would approach that is look at some of the classical research that was done and you'd say, “What can he move?” Let's say, “Can you move one hand or if you can move a finger.” Maybe whether it's a rubber band or a ball, but something that could provide loading or tension for what can be moved while he breathes in oxygen. And, I would basically, whether it's a single finger or a hand or toe or foot, whatever it is, I would figure out a way to create a movement pattern that is resistance and effort. And then, train the hell out of him to get that stimulation.

Ben:  What about hyperbaric?

Thomas:  So, the limitation with hyperbaric is you can't move in hyperbaric. That's usually laying down. And then, what happens is you don't get–

Ben:  Can do more setups.

Thomas:  So, here's what happens is once you get to a certain pressure and the oxygen start to dissolve in the plasma, movement can induce oxygen toxicosis. And so, what happens is if you compare immune responses, hyperbaric, it's not even on the same galaxy. It's way down here versus EWOT. So, I'm talking to guys that are far more knowledgeable about hyperbaric than I am. I mean, they live a 100 days or more way below underwater. So, it's like the true hyperbaric stuff.

And, talking to those guys and learning from them some of the limitations, it's hard to move a lot when there's that much pressure with oxygen because you run into other issues. But, in theory, my speculation would be if I could take people and move them and then find the right pressure, maybe I don't need four atmospheres or three atmospheres, maybe I get one and a half. But, this should be in theory. Some crossover where the right concentration with the right movement pattern with the right pressure, we could maybe get oxygen in the tissue faster.

Now, having said that, hyperbaric oxygen therapy systems, there's a price point. Many people could afford them. And, I can get oxygen in a tissue with a gas mixture or with just exercise really fast. So now, if you look back to what comparative physiology, what am I getting for what I'm spending, you wind up coming back to exercise with oxygen therapy. 

Ben:  Yeah.

Thomas:  And, keep in mind, I don't sell any systems. I'm not a salesman here.

Ben:  Yeah. No, I got you. And, we're going to get a chance to show people some of this stuff shortly. Tom's going to take me a little tour of Causenta and show you guys some of the cool stuff here.

But, you've got a team here. Because when I walked in, first person that greet me at the front desk was a naturopathic physician. There's you. Obviously, you've got a whole medical staff.

Thomas:  Yeah, we got a lot more people. It's not a one-man show. Every patient has a strength coach. Strength coach has two degrees, including a master in science degree. So, it's not your typical–

Ben:  Did you say every patient is a strength coach?

Thomas:  Yeah. You can't get stronger if you don't have a guy that knows how to get strong, right? Just think about that. So, you go to MD Anderson, go to Mayo Clinic, Sloan Kettering, go to any cancer treatment center and they'll say stupid stuff like, “Oh, we're going to get you stronger.” You go, “Well, show me your strength coach.” They'll look at you like you're a crazy person.

Ben:  Yeah. You mean every employee is a strength coach, not every patient?

Thomas:  No, no, no. Every patient that we have here has a strength coach–

Ben:  Strength coach, okay. I got you. I got you. Yeah.

Thomas:  Yeah. So, maybe I misspoke, but basically, the point is you can't help people if you don't have someone that knows what they're doing in that area, right? 

Ben:  Yeah.

Thomas:  And so, one of the things–

Ben:  Exercise is medicine, right?

Thomas:  Yeah, it absolutely is. Well, especially you have people coming in in a wheelchair and then they're walking in three hours and then they're throwing out the wheelchair.

Ben:  Wow.

Thomas:  You would think when they go back to the center that they came from that other professionals go, “It's a miracle, we should do this.” And, you see it's not done because sure it doesn't cover it and they can't monetize it.

Ben:  Yeah.

Thomas:  And, that's when you see right away there's a lot of stuff in healthcare that's upside down.

Ben:  Yeah, can't monetize movement. It's your tagline.

Thomas:  Yeah, yeah.

Ben:  Well, you want take me on a tour and show folks what this is all about.

Thomas:  Yeah. Let's do it.

Ben:  Alright. And again, if you're watching and you want to access the research, the resources, et cetera, go to BenGreenfieldLife.com/Causenta. There'll be plenty more about Tom and what he does there.

Alright. We are officially here. This is where the magic happens. This is Tom's facility at Causenta. As you can see, chockfull of all of the geekiest equipment and Tom's going to show you some of the cool stuff here.

Thomas:  Okay. Alright, thanks, man. Alright. So, this kind of section over here, this is what we call our exercise with oxygen therapy equipment. And so, basically took a bunch of the bags and it hooked up in series. So, that way, if I have a beast that's breathing in a lot of oxygen, they're going to draw from six bags–

Ben:  They're going to empty all the bags. Yeah, that's why I got to go out to my gym and turn on the bag early before I go out. I don't have big bags like you but yeah.

Thomas:  So basically, we have is we have a bunch of concentrators that take room air, concentrate the oxygen, fill up the bags. These bags are roughly 900 to 1,000 liters. Collectively, we're putting out anywhere from 30 to 90 liters of oxygen a minute. So, we fill up a bag. And essentially, we have a lot of different cardio pieces of equipment. But, when I was testing people, I tested people in a stationary bike. I tested people on a recumbent bike. I test people on a treadmill and I found the best immune responses from an elliptical device. It kind of makes sense. More muscle group.

Ben:  Arm leg, yeah.

Thomas:  And then, when I tested different ellipticals, what I found is that a lot of people would join issues and more people could do the Cybex Arc Trainer. And, keep in mind, my data I'm talking about, this is stuff I collected five years ago. So, could there be better exercise equipment now? Probably. But, just at that point, this is the best we could find. And, what I liked is I get some patients that can't stand so they're going to be at zero. They have some guys that are well-borns on the planet. They're at 400 pounds, right? So, they're going to be really much higher.

Ben:  Yeah, NHL football players.

Thomas:  Right. So, I need, in one footprint, a space. I need something that could accommodate a wide range of resistance. Now, basically, we use 400 pounds of resistance for everyone and we just lower the percentages that we're using for each person. But, we max them out, see where their fitness is. Most people starting in 25 to 30% of the 400-pound range. And then, basically, they're breathing in oxygen while they exercise. And then, depending on where they are, their first workout, it might be 75 calories, 150 calories, 500 calories, whatever.

And then, while they're doing that, we then will introduce–there's a company called Collagentex and they make the coldest RX-3, the coldest RX-1. Basically, it's very, very powerful light.

Ben:  Oh, wow. This is like red light therapy that you're using in conjunction–

Thomas:  Yeah, while they're exercising. Yeah. Now, keep in mind, this is 10 wavelengths. So, it's not just red light. Basically, it's polychromatic light. So, think of it super high energy, much more than you could find normally. And, it goes to a quartz crystal that functions like a prism. So, the prism makes a rainbow and you can see different wavelengths or colors. So, this will break it down to 10.

So, kind of think of it this way. Company A says my wavelength is better. Company B says, no, my wavelength is better. We're doing 10. So, it won't matter. And, what you could see is you could literally see people sweating like crazy.

Ben:  So, if someone wanted to replicate this at home if they had a red light panel, it's not going do as much of this as far as wavelengths are concerned but they could set up a red light panel next to a bicycle elliptical trainer. And, if they have exercise with oxygen therapy, they could do that at the same time.

Thomas:  Yeah. The main concern you have is distance, right? So, the energy is inversely proportional, the distance or radius square. So, if it's too far back, then you're running a question like, is it meaningful?

Ben:  You need pretty powerful device or have it as close as possible.

Thomas:  Right. Yeah. So, if you're doing this at home, I would say skimpy shorts, right? 

Ben:  Yeah.

Thomas:  No shirt, working out.

Ben:  Actually, I should ask you this. A lot of companies now Lumaflex or Kineon, they're making wraparound red light devices that you could theoretically wear on your legs or on your arms or strap around your back and get a baby effect of what you're doing here.

Thomas:  Yeah. So, I think that's the right direction. I mean, ultimately, we think of it as, okay. So, we'll jump ahead a little bit, but kind of along the lines you're just saying. So, this is a company called Neuro20. These are basically electrodes and basically think of it like whole body neuromuscular–

Ben:  So, it's like a pull-on EMS suit?

Thomas:  Exactly.

Ben:  Yeah.

Thomas:  So now, the difference is that when you see EMS in the market, what you want to know is, okay, what are the patterns that they're using? What's the basis for those patterns? What these guys did, very clever, they recorded the electrical firing patterns from top athletes. So, the best sprinters, the best jumpers, the best lifters. And now, they got that in here. So basically–

Ben:  What's it called again?

Thomas:  Neuro20.

Ben:  Neuro20. Wow.

Thomas:  And so, basically, you put on the suit. Now, I could stimulate any combination of major muscle groups I want.

Ben:  Is this wireless or wired?

Thomas:  No, wireless. You wear a suit and I got like a controller pad.

Ben:  Okay.

Thomas:  And so, you wear this. I could have you on that. And, let's just say we want to just rehab the right leg. I could turn everything off and just stimulate the right leg. Or, if you would say, you know what, I want to do more lower body. So, I work with a lot of people with spinal cord injury or hip issues and I have trouble standing up. So, I could literally just do a lower body only or if I have a beast like you, I'm going to stimulate every muscle group in your body. And, you can make it just walking–

Ben:  Yeah. I've worn that. Have you heard of the Katalyst suit before?

Thomas:  Yeah.

Ben:  I've worn that. It's hard.

Thomas:  Yeah, yeah.

Ben:  Yeah. You're using all these little muscles that you wouldn't normally recruit. Pretty sore afterward.

Thomas:  So, side by side, mostly guys would say they found this was way more intense but also here's a cool part. They have the company has a patents on all the firing frequency pattern. So, we could use it for rehab and it's like already approved like they could show that they can demonstrate like guys, come back from rehab faster. They could use it for just strength training. So, think of it now. I have frail patients that were told don't lift weights, you're going to get hurt.

Now, they come in here. What am I doing? Remember, doing cardio electrically stimulating them. These are men with terminal conditions and now have no evidence of disease and they're leaving with 100-pound dumbbell rows. That's how it should be. That's the model of health.

Ben:  Yeah. But, you're getting them to that point by using electrical muscle stimulation? 

Thomas:  Yeah. So basically, we're helping the brain connect to the body using electricity. But now, imagine you're wearing this while you're doing that stuff. So, think of it in 15 minutes, we could stimulate multiple physiological systems at a very high level. 

So, you see some clients, they're very successful, they're always traveling and they don't have a lot of time. Well, it's nice to have all the gadgets but now, you still have to use them, right? And, where do you find that time? And so, what I figured out is how to stack all these therapies so I could do stuff in 15 to 30 minutes that very few guys have ever seen done before. Then, I could show people within days getting physically stronger or physically faster.

Ben:  Wow.

Thomas:  And then, we do a lot of fun stuff. So, talk about lead athletes, talk about some of my patients, I've literally had NHL hockey player here training with a woman with pancreatic cancer, terminal pancreatic cancer and they're working out together. And, everybody's like, “What the hell?” And, guess what, people forget is success sets the stage for success. And now, what happens is the athlete has an injured ankle, he's rehabbing, the woman's trying to beat pancreatic cancer. They're both training at appropriate fitness levels, getting stronger. And, next thing you know, the hockey player staying on the sled telling the older woman with pancreatic cancer, “Come on, Old Woman, push.”

Ben:  I love that.

Thomas:  So now, she gets stronger and she's laughing having fun and she gets to tell all her friends, “I just pushed this NHL hockey player.”

Ben:  Yeah, yeah.

Thomas:  So, we're leveraging out of community.

Ben:  Are you coming in here at the same time and also drawing bloods getting biomarkers, some of those things you were talking about when you're in your office?

Thomas:  Yeah. So, we can. So, depends on where they are in their phase. So, right at the beginning, we're measuring a lot of stuff because I basically think of it. Biochemically speaking, I have no idea what's going on inside of them, so I'm measuring all the stuff objectively. And then, as we start seeing, okay, they're improving, they're responding, there may not be as much of a need. So typically, you're more concerned when someone's not responding or you have unknowns, then there's going to be a lot more effort, if you will, to measuring stuff. But, once people are doing fantastic, then typically they're like, “Hey, let's just ride this wave as far as we can until we need to do something else.”

Ben:  Yeah.

A lot of clinics will use, specifically for patients who are on chemotherapy, something that would increase the cytotoxicity of chemo like ozone for increased oxygenation or hypothermia. Have you ever had somebody come in who's on chemo and combine an oxygen treatment with that?

Thomas:  Yeah, we would. So, what I would say. So first, we do a very specific tests to look at the genetics of the cancer. We compare that to their germline genetics. So, genes they were born with. And, they look at the protein pathways that are driving the cancer to spread. And then, we're simultaneously looking at the micronutrient status and the environmental chemicals and the pathogens. And so, then the tools we would use to enhance the effectiveness of chemo, we depend upon a number of those variables. But, I would say in principle, if someone comes to the door and they never did chemo, whether they're stage 0 or stage 4, my goal is to get rid of the cancer so they never need chemo or surgery.

Ben:  Okay.

Thomas:  So then, that way, because nobody says, “Hey, let me go on to something I don't need.” So, what I'd usually try to do is get them to know evidence of disease in two or three weeks if they've never been treated. Now, if they've already been treated by other centers, then sometimes it's going to take close to eight weeks because I haven't met any patients yet that have ever been exposed this level of testing or precision. Most of the time when I see what's been done, there may have been something missed and then you're not leveraging things the best.

So, for example, some people have a NRF2 mutation, and if it's not taken into account, you may push cancer one way or another, or a lot of times people come in and go, “Well, I'm going to go ketogenic because carbohydrates feed cancer.” And, you might say in theory, there's a lot of evidence to support that but now when we test the cancer in their body, we find that they have a KRAS mutation, and protein and fat drives that cancer. 

Ben:  Interesting.

Thomas:  So now, if I said, “Hey, look, man, I want you put this oil in your car,” and you go, “Dude, I have a e-car.”

Ben:  Which mutation is that?

Thomas:  KRAS.

Ben:  KRAS mutation. So, that would indicate that something like a ketogenic approach would not be.

Thomas:  May not be the best approach. Yeah. Keep in mind, there a lot of genes, right?

Ben:  Yeah.

Thomas:  And so, you can't just cherry-pick one and say what if. You kind of look at in the context. It's no different than in your car. You check the air pressure and all the tires before you decide what you're fixing or filling up with air. So, think of it that way. I'm going to measure all the genes and then decide what am I doing. I'm not just going to measure two or three. So, just on that science alone, it's women with breast cancer. ER positive, PR positive, HER2. Well, why're you measuring three when it's 22,000?

Ben:  Yeah.

Thomas:  That doesn't sound very thorough. And so, what we try to do is be a little bit more thorough and precise.

Ben:  Yeah. You must have to use software though to dig through 22,000 genes.

Thomas:  So, it's collaborations every one of the groups. So, think of it is I'm kind of like the nerd that knows a lot of these things, but I'm not data mining every single gene, right? So, each lab has their own AI platform. And then, where the gap is connecting the platforms, right?

Ben:  Yeah.

Thomas:  So, one guy does germline genetics, other guy does oncogenetics, but there ain't one guy doing both. So, sometimes I take this data, take that data, talk to a few more PhDs or a few more MDs, reconcile what makes the most sense, and then we're taking some action.

Ben:  Okay. Speaking of air, I've seen some people use this type of training in conjunction with hypoxic training, which supposedly flushes the cells with oxygen when you induce a state of hypoxia and then hit hyperoxia. Are you doing that also like flipping back and forth between hypoxia and hyperoxia?

Thomas:  No. Okay. So, keep in mind I'm dealing with people that already have poor oxygen delivery. And, you also have to keep in mind that so more than 70% of the clients have comorbidity. So, there may be a high risk for stroke, high risk for heart disease, some other pre-existing condition–

Ben:  So, you don't want that vasoconstrictive hypoxic effect in someone like that?

Thomas:  Not initially.

Ben:  Okay.

Thomas:  So, the initial goal was let's get him to a thousand, right? If I get him to a thousand calories, and the cancer's gone, now I'm dealing with a different person than they started. So, if I had let's say a non-athlete, I'm sorry rather an athlete with no evidence of cancer, we're assessing them and then we're looking at what's the best way to bring them up. And so, they may be hypoxic training combined with hyperoxic training. Might just be simple breath-holding. Hold as long as you can.

Ben:  Yeah.

Thomas:  And then, start breathing while I got this oxygen flooding in. Right now, we're looking at some interesting things. So, we have a blood flow restriction training, weight training. And so, think of it. So essentially, here's the catch that you won't hear a lot of guys tell you. What makes muscle grow faster? Low oxygen. What makes the immune system respond better? High oxygen. So now, basically, what you want everybody to do? You want everybody to do both.

Ben:  Yeah.

Thomas:  But now, given that, how do I do it safely for each person? And, keep in mind, your background, you have a lot more fitness stuff, whereas more like strongman stuff, whereas just more on RMs. So, there might be stuff you could get away with given your history, but I try that, I'm breaking down, right? So, I got to figure out where people are and then kind of get them where they are to where it could be safer for them and then we can go crazy and do whatever.

Ben:  Would you ever use blood flow restriction combined with this stuff?

Thomas:  Oh, yeah, all the time. Yeah.

Ben:  Yeah. I mean, that's similar to like–have you seen the Vasper machine before? It's cold blood flow restriction, grounding, and then a lot of people will use oxygen with something like that.

Thomas:  Yeah. So, sort of the way that we would sort of integrate stuff here, we would definitely. So, the poor man's approach, we just buy VELCRO cinch straps from Amazon. Just buy them 6 bucks, 12 bucks, put them around top of the thighs, top of the arms, just pull that puppy as hard as you can take it, and then cinch it. You can't control tension, but you could feel the blood building up in your legs. It's working. 

Ben:  Yeah. You just don't get great Venus return compared to those fancy KAATSU bands.

Thomas:  No, definitely don't. But, here's the thing is they're so inexpensive. You break, no one cries.

Ben:  That was my workout this morning. Cheap BFR bands from Amazon. I go for a walk and I do push-ups.

Thomas:  Yeah, yeah. Well, they're great tools and they're easy to travel with. You don't have to worry about, “Oh, I forgot something. I don't have battery or power adapter or something.” And then, if I have a pro athlete and I need something a little bit more–remember, if I got guys that could barely stand, I don't need a lot to get some mileage. But, if I have a guy that's like John Welbourn or some other beast, then I need something that's maybe a little bit more high-tech that could be more precise for those guys.

Ben:  Yeah, yeah.

Anything else interesting that you're doing in here? I mean, obviously, this is the main full meal deal. You got the weights over here. I see a PEMF back here.

Thomas:  Yeah. So, different things. Well, basically what we did is we put the, think of the hospital is in the gym. Think of it like that. And so, now, whether I need loading with a dumbbell or loading with a cable will play with different ways of transmitting load or force through the body. Because remember, I'm dealing with a lot of people with different issues.

Ben:  Yeah.

Thomas:  So, we'll do a lot of things like, okay, so one strategy might be lifting with a carbon polymer bar like the tsunami bars and things like that.

Ben:  I don't know what that is. Carbon polymer bar?

Thomas:  I'll show you. Over here. So basically, think bamboo training. So, let's see. Where did I put it? So, lot of Kabuki gadgets. I like those guys and their stuff. It looks like–

Ben:  Yeah, Kabuki Strength, they make good stuff. Yup.

Thomas:  Okay. So, the bar is made from a carbon polymer. So, under load. So, right now, it doesn't bend much, right?

Ben:  Yeah.

Thomas:  But, under load, it flexes and bows more, right?

Ben:  Interesting.

Thomas:  So now, what happens is think about it. So, say if you're benching, right?

Ben:  Right.

Thomas:  And you come down, so you would do maybe this would be better for pressing movements. So, you come down. And, when the load hits you with a standard bar, it's like a chromosteel alloy type of property, the loading is borne by the joints at end range either extreme. And now, it's something like this. You come down, the bar bends away from you so you don't feel that hard impact in your joint. So, guys with arthritis, they love this stuff because they could train hard and your joints don't ache afterwards.

So, whether you're fully extending or fully coming at the end range of motion of a bench press, the bar bends away with you. So, absorbs a lot of energy. So, as you then come back, the return is working with you.

Ben:  Yeah. What's this one called?

Thomas:  Tsunami.

Ben:  Tsunami. Huh.

Thomas:  Yeah. So, this one, I think it tells you don't lift more than 170 pounds per side.

Ben:  Yeah.

Thomas:  So now–

Ben:  Because it might damage the bar.

Thomas:  Yeah. I'll just throw it back in here. Then, we got a lot of different– So, whether it's Spain, Czech Republic, Russia, Japan, we have gadgets from all over the world that we could put on people. So, as an example, you heard of EMSCULPT, right?

Ben:  Yeah, EMSCULPT like the electrical muscle stimulation for incontinence or full body treatments.

Thomas:  Yeah. No, no. EMSELLA.

Ben:  EMSELLA. That's the one you said.

Thomas:  So, we got EMSCULPT. Same company. BTL makes one. Basically, the EMSCULPT got attention for like you put on your abs, put on your glutes, right?

Ben:  Yeah, I've tried it.

Thomas:  So, when we got that, I saw immediately I could help athletes jump higher. And so, we had guys using to increase their bench press and jump higher, and then company comes in goes, “It's not supposed to be used that way.” I'm like, “Who said?”

Ben:  Yeah.

Thomas:  I own it now. I can do whatever the hell I want because it's in my building, right?

Ben:  Yeah.

Thomas:  And, you just basically, if you're curious, you can play around with a lot of these gadgets and develop new applications for them. Most guys aren't thinking when they're selling it because they don't have time, right? They got to get the next sale done and stuff like that. And so, just–

Ben:  And, you were telling me to do something interesting with red light combined with PEMF. Is that right?

Thomas:  Yeah. So, let me see. Alright. So basically, so this is a device. It's called Hercules laser and this part's called a multi-lumen. So basically, each pad is 80 watts of power. So, I could run 880 to 160 watts power around the joint. So, think of it as the light comes out, goes so far. Then, I take the pulse. And, they have a lot of different attachments. But, let's say the red light is going on my hand. So, lights coming down into it. I can turn a pulse, put it over it and I use the magnetic energy to drive it.

Ben:  Using the magnetic energy from the PEMF to drive the red light with the PEMF stacked on top of the red light.

Thomas:  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ben:  Interesting.

Thomas:  Yeah. So, I'll have guys try one or try the other and I'm like, I don't know, maybe it held, maybe it didn't. I combine the two to like, “Holy shit, that stuff works.”

Ben:  That's interesting because I actually have one of these soft flexible red light beds that have been laying on top of my PEMF mat that's just like this and you feel incredible when you get up from it. Yeah.

Thomas:  Yeah. So, what I've done here, so we have a light bed there. And then, what I can do is take one of the attachments. The lights coming this way and the magnetic energy is coming that way, so it's not quite the same. You really want them in the same direction coming through. Problem is I love the pulse but it's a very powerful tool and it could blow other gadgets easily. Sometimes if it's too close, the energy here will blow circuit board. 

Ben:  Yeah, I've done that before.

Thomas:  Yeah, yeah. That's an expensive learning.

Ben:  I can't run my sauna and my hyperbaric and my PEMF at the same time without somebody not being able to cook a meal upstairs. Yeah.

Thomas:  Yeah. So, this guy here, whatever the hell–Jean is the owner of that company. Whatever he did, I could blow these all through it and doesn't damage it. So, Jean's an older guy. He's pretty rough. He's like, “That's because you're buying cheap shit.” I was like, “Jean, it's not cheap shit. This is expensive stuff. It works really well, but everybody else is not thinking about.” No one builds something worried about another device interfering with it, right? It's just not part of the process. How we designed it, it's like impervious.

Ben:  Yeah. Wow.

Thomas:  So basically, all I'm doing right now is getting you a little warmed up, get a little sweat going. The sweat's going to act as a conduction for the electrodes that are inside the [00:37:56] _____.

Ben:  Got you.

Thomas:  And, once you a little sweaty–

Ben:  It's like a toaster in a bathtub.

Thomas:  That's right. That's going to do. You're going to have some fun today. I think old cowboy movies would have shooting at the guy's feet and saying “Dance.” That's what I'm kind of thinking.

Ben:  Oh, jeez. It's alright. All I got to do is go sit on the plane after this, Tom.

Thomas:  That's right. Well, you got to love me or hate me after this, right? There's no way between.

Ben:  I usually hate people after EMS, I'll admit.

Thomas:  Alright, I want to do next. I'm going to turn on some light just so you get a visual of how the light would work.

Ben:  Okay.

Thomas:  So, give me one moment.

Ben:  Now light, that would penetrate clothing?

Thomas:  Yeah. You could have a fur coat in jeans and it'll go through it.

Ben:  Wow. Is that based on the power of the red light?

Thomas: The power in a different wavelength.

Ben:  Got you.

Thomas:  So, maybe you got 10 and some go pretty deep. And, what I've also done. I've tested this. We have a chair version. And, I've tested the chair version and I can verify it raises hormone levels in men. So, there's a lot of ways we could leverage this stuff.

So, what I'm going to do now, I was going to go lower back area and you'll feel it's getting hotter around that area pretty soon.

Ben:  I know it wasn't getting harder. I was choosing the incline instead of the resistance.

Thomas:  Yeah. So, like another two minutes then you should be good.

Ben:  Yup. Yeah, I can feel the heat from that light. That's powerful.

Thomas:  Yeah. And, it's not even a minute, right? It's like 30 seconds.

Ben:  Yeah, you can feel almost instantly, honestly.

Thomas:   And, I can even get it closer.

Ben:  Feels like sunlight.

Thomas:  Yeah. Like, music guys like, “Dude, it's staring into the sun.” Well, then don't stare at it.

Ben:  Yeah.

Thomas:  While you're doing that, I was going to try to get this going. Maybe slow down just a smidgen because I got to plug this in.

Ben:  Okay. 

Thomas:  Cool.

Ben:  You're able to control this suit.

Thomas:  Yeah. So basically, that's providing power to the suit and it's a receiver. So then, I have app on an iPad and I connect to that guy. So, I'm going to start basically, let's see here. Alright. Basically, we'll just say strength.

Ben:  Okay.

Thomas:  You got hundreds of options. We're going to just pick something simple. I just say 10 minutes just because you got to travel.

Ben:  Yup. Gives me time to get to the airport.

Thomas:   Yup.

Ben:  Without throwing a blood clot in the plane.

Thomas:  Alright. So, I'm going to start. So, first thing I'm going to do is going to turn on all the muscles. I'm going to go up slow. If it feels like pins and needles, then you're basically not sweaty enough.

Ben:  Not enough sweat.

Thomas:  Yeah.

Ben:  Yeah. I can tell I don't have too much sweat yet.

Thomas:  Okay. Let me know if you start feeling any tingling.

Ben:  I can feel a little bit.

Thomas:   So, is it a pin needle? Does it feel a little bit more like?

Ben:  It's so light. I can't even feel that much.

Thomas:  Okay.

Ben:  Yeah, it's a little pin needly. Slightly.

Thomas:  Alright. I'm going to wait another minute or two to get a little sweatier. And then, I'll just keep increasing it.

Ben:  Okay.

Thomas:   So, I'm at three right now, so it's pretty low.

Ben:  Yeah.

Thomas:   But, the idea is so once there's sweat, then the electrode makes more contact surface–

Ben:  Yeah, [00:41:05] _____ spray down a little water.

Thomas:  You could.

Ben:  Yeah. That's what I've known with the Katalyst suit before.

Thomas:  Yeah. So, what I'll do is a couple of options. One, I just jump in the shower wet the whole suit, right? And, that saves me time. Or, if I don't want to get that wet for whatever reason, I just 5 minutes, maybe 10, then it's sweaty enough.

Ben:  You probably sweat faster than I do.

Thomas:  Alright. Try it a little bit more. Let me know how's it feeling.

Ben:  Feel a little more. Still not ton of sweat but I can feel some of the muscles contracting a little bit.

Thomas:  Alright, going to start now increasing a little bit. Let me know if it gets too strong in any muscle.

Ben:  I will.

Thomas:  Now, some of the abs in the back, if it's not pushed up.

Ben:  Yeah, it's not super snug so I probably won't feel that much.

Thomas:  Yeah, great.

Ben:  [00:41:56] _____ at least give folks a little demo what it looks like.

Thomas:  Yeah. So, what we would do is so sometimes some of the athletes have a big chest-waist differential. We put a VELCRO band around the waist so it touches–

Ben:  Got you. Yeah, that makes sense.

Thomas:  Yup.

Ben:  Yeah, I got a very wide-shouldered waist ratio.

Thomas:  Yeah. So then, what we'll do is I'm just going to turn it up a little bit. Let me know when your quads are feeling it.

Ben:  It's pretty cool how you can adjust arms and legs separately.

Thomas:  Yeah. So, I can go left, right and left or independent muscle–

Ben:  Yeah. I like that.

Thomas:  Well, what's kind of interesting, so a lot of people have had a head injury or brain injury or something or fall even.

Ben:  Yeah.

Thomas:  They'll say my right side is great, my left side not feeling it. So, I can bias it and put more stimulation on the side not getting it. And then, you'll see workout after workout that all of a sudden it starts catching up. So, I'm going to now make it a little bit stronger than the legs.

Ben:  Yeah. Now, I'm starting to feel the legs. Yup.

Thomas:  So, we're about four and a half minutes in.

So, I didn't have you breathe in the oxygen because we're talking, right? And obviously, it would interfere, but if you were training for real, I'd have you breathing in oxygen.

Ben:  Right, the oxygen mask on. Yeah.

Thomas:  Yeah. And then, given your background, there's a lot of latitude so we could explore sprint intervals. We could explore different things.

Ben:  Yeah.

Thomas:  And then, the joke, so we teach a lot of the patients here. How do you make anything feel easier or lighter? Just do something harder.

Ben:  It's all relative.

Thomas:  Yeah, it is. So, do a hard spray. Now, try 30% and it feels like nothing's there. 

Ben:  Yup.

Thomas:  Alright. So, coming down you got four minutes to go. You want to write it out? 

Ben:  And, the strength kind of goes back and forth, huh?

Thomas:  So, terms of like, what do you mean back and forth?

Ben:  It'll like contract and then relax.

Thomas:  Right, exactly. So, what I did for you, I just put a 60-second contraction and a one-second relaxation.

Ben:  Thank you. I was going to say. The relaxation period seem to go by pretty quickly.

Thomas:  That's right. Like, you sure it's even working?

Ben:  [00:44:01] ____ like a torture chamber master.

Thomas:  Well, I [00:44:06] _____ I saw at Tom's place, I didn't get any results.

Ben:  No. You turn up the legs a little bit.

Thomas:  Okay, okay. I want you to go back home and say I'm not sure if that guy's all there but I definitely got results.

Ben:  Fun, remembrance of Tom Incledon.

Thomas:  That's right. I'm never going back, but at least my quads are bigger. You tell me when.

Ben:  It's over right there.

Thomas:  Okay. It's pretty good. A little bit more we're at Neanderthal level. You're almost there, man.

Ben:  Oh, wow. There's that one-second relaxation kick-in. It's gone.

Thomas:  Yeah. I blinked relaxation is over.

Ben:  Yeah.

Thomas:  So, when I do this, I put basically no relaxation, right? So, it's contract just to reset–

Ben:  Yeah, just consistent the whole time.

Thomas:  Yeah. Well, because–

Ben:  It does give you a lot of results in a short period of time.

Thomas:  Yes, exactly.

Ben:  Yeah.

Thomas:  Yeah. So, this part of me if I was competing, I would do what it takes in terms of training. But, where I am right now, I have a lot of responsibility for other people's lives. So, I'm kind of like, “Okay, in 15 minutes or less, how could I get some results?”

I get better results from frequency than I do from volume right now. Particularly because I have a lot of neural issues and arthritis issues. So, shorter times, I don't beat myself up too much. So, you got about three and a half minutes to go.

Ben:  Okay. Maybe every 30 seconds it's turned up a slight notch. Let's see if I can power it up.

Thomas:  Okay.

Ben:  Can't do anything for three minutes.

Thomas:  Sure. So, you got nine seconds and I'll crank it up.

Ben:  Okay.

Thomas:  Alright. Ready? Here we go. How's that?

Ben:  A little more.

Thomas:  Okay. I just went up two units.

Ben:  Yup. Just maybe keep doing that every 30 seconds.

Thomas:  Sure. I'll just keep doing it till I see you cry, alright?

Ben:  Yeah. Once you see me squirming.

Thomas:  It's like, “What kind of dance move is that? I haven't seen it before.”

Ben:  Yeah. Like all the electric dance exercise.

Thomas:  Yeah, yeah.

Ben:  Electric boogie.

Thomas:  Yeah.

Ben:  Yeah, you could tell this would be probably slightly easier with oxygen, huh?

Thomas:  Well, definitely for the muscles. Definitely for the brain. You're not going to definitely not get as fatigue, but the idea behind the oxygen is to create a temporary environment where you could train maybe way harder than normal.

I could take people in 12 days, get them results they haven't had in years.

Ben:  Wow.

Thomas:  Yeah. And, the reason is we keep pushing and pushing but safely, right?

Ben:  Yeah. Honestly, I think it's just as impressive. The results you're getting with disease. 

Thomas:  Well, I mean everybody wherever they are, whatever they're doing, no matter what you're dealing with, when you come in, you want to be better regardless of the diagnosis.

You're pretty good, man. You're almost at 60. That's probably the highest I've ever done. 

Ben:  Oh, really?

Thomas:   Yeah. Right now, there's no data on this point. Alright.

Ben:  Uh-oh. [00:47:04] _____ to Mars.

Thomas:  You're like, “What happens there?” We just don't know, right?

Ben:  Ben loses his tacos that he had for lunch.

Thomas:  Wait.

Ben:  Everything feels good except that left leg.

Thomas:  Yeah.

Ben:  Which is honestly where I've had some knee issues in the past. That left leg, you can feel it's a little bit weaker.

Thomas:  So, is the signal weaker or the contraction weaker?

Ben:  The strength of that left leg. I'm getting way more drive with my right leg than my left.

Thomas:  So, what I would do is I would–

Ben:  Like a minute and 20.

Thomas:  Yeah.

Ben:  Yeah.

Thomas:  So, right now.

Ben:  Push through.

Thomas:   So, right now, 62.

Ben:  Yeah.

Thomas:  You want to just leave it there to the end?

Ben:  How much time do I have?

Thomas:  You got just over a minute.

Ben:  Just over a minute. Let's go 65 for this last minute. Let's see how that goes.

Thomas:  Here we go. I'm starting to like you more and more, man.

Ben:  Not quite a walk in the park, but.

Thomas:  It's alright. If you feel really good tomorrow, it was my idea. If you're really sore, it was your idea.

Ben:  It was my idea, yeah. Yeah, I can tell [00:48:12] _____ a little bit. Between that and my BFR training this morning.

Thomas:  Yeah. That's right. This is like a double header for you.

Ben:  BFR doesn't beat you up too much. It's a great setup though.

Thomas:  Yeah.

Ben:  You're giving people plenty of ideas here.

Thomas:  Sure.

Ben:  There's going to be a bunch of gyms that want to add something like this to their facility.

Thomas:  Oh, yeah. Well, the Neuro20, what's so cool is you don't have the level of dysfunction a lot of people I have work with. But, imagine if you have trouble walking, they actually have a program to help you walk like a normal person.

Ben:  Wow.

Thomas:  Yeah. I'm using it right now.

Ben:  Like a retraining type of program.

Thomas:   Exactly, exactly.

Ben:  So, there's just a bunch of different settings on that thing.

Thomas:  Yup.

Ben:  Wow.

Thomas:  Alright, man. You did it.

Ben:  Alright, yeah.

Thomas:   Done. I just turned it off. Hopefully, you don't feel anything now.

Ben:  Now.

Thomas:  It's still going. Won't shut off.

Ben:  It's stuck. That's the permanence. You go over 60. It stays on permanently.

Thomas:   Yeah.

Ben:  Wow.

Thomas:  It's a penalty.

Ben:  Wow. Well, for folks watching. I mean, obviously, it's a pretty incredible setup and there's a lot of information on Tom's website at Causenta along with other interviews that he's done. But, I really wanted to get you guys thinking about ways that we can go beyond just pumping iron, going on a walk, riding a bicycle. All that's great, but when you introduce a little bit of better science like this, oxygen, light, electromagnetism into your fitness protocol or your disease management protocol, your performance protocol. I've known about what Tom's doing for quite some time. It's very cool to see what he's put together here at the facility. 

So, definitely recommend you check him out. I'm going to put all the shownotes at BenGreenfieldLife.com/Causenta. If you like Tom, let me know. We'll do another interview at some point. Come to Scottsdale in Phoenix quite a bit. So, if you guys want to take a deeper dive, in the meantime, visit his website.

Tom, thanks so much, man. I think but I'll tell you for sure if I thank you in the morning. Thanks for watching, you guys.

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