Eat Wheat: A Scientific and Clinically-Proven Approach to Safely Bringing Wheat and Dairy Back Into Your Diet

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Click here for the full written transcript of this podcast episode.

Are you gluten-free or dairy-free?

If so, you might not have to be.

In his brand new book “Eat Wheat: A Scientific and Clinically-Proven Approach to Safely Bringing Wheat and Dairy Back Into Your Diet“, my former podcast guest Dr. John Douillard introduces a scientific and clinically-proven approach to addressing food intolerances. He thinks that after generations upon generations of human beings eating wheat and only a relatively short few thousand years of hunting meat, we are actually genetically better equipped to eat wheat than meat.

In the book Dr. Douillard, who I first interviewed in “The Zen of “The Zone” – How To Breathe The Right Way When You're Working Out” (and who first inspired me to begin nasal rather than mouth breathing during my workouts) addresses the underlying cause of the gluten-free epidemic. He explains how a breakdown in digestion has damaged the intestinal wall and leaked undigested foods and environmental toxins into the body’s lymphatic system, causing “grain brain” symptoms and food allergies. Although eliminating wheat and dairy from your diet may help your symptoms, it is a Band-Aid solution. Backed by more than 600 scientific studies, Eat Wheat claims to address the root cause: weak digestion and the inability to efficiently break down harmful pollutants and toxins that can predispose you to a host of chronic degenerative diseases, such as cancer and autoimmune disorders.

Dr. Douillard, DC, CAP, is a globally recognized leader in the fields of natural health, Ayurveda, and sports medicine. He is the creator of, the leading Ayurvedic health and wellness resource on the web. is evolving the way Ayurveda is understood around the world, with over 700 articles and videos proving ancient wisdom with modern science. Dr. John is the former Director of Player Development for the New Jersey Nets NBA team, author of 6 health books, a repeat guest on the Dr. Oz show, and featured in Woman’s World Magazine, Huffington Post, Yoga Journal and dozens of other publications. He directs LifeSpa, the 2013 Holistic Wellness Center of the year in Boulder, CO.

During our discussion, you'll discover:

-Why John says it's not the “grains” but the “drains”…[9:00]

-The studies that show that humans have been eating gluten for a very long time…[15:40]

-The difference between modern grain and ancient grain processing…[25:20]

-What John means when he says “perhaps we simply have an inability to digest these foods”…[29:15]

-The two shocking ingredients added to most breads that are the true culprits to the villainous nature of these breads…[29:50 & 35:40]

-Why deer can die when they eat “out of season” and how you can “eat wheat (or dairy) in season”, especially in terms of your digestive enzymes…[43:35]

-Other surprising examples how you can eat according to nature's cycles…[44:55]

-Why the skin prick test for gluten intolerance is notoriously inaccurate…[51:35]

-Why you should eat foods that can “dye your clothes”…[56:55]

-Why John thinks lunch should be the heaviest meal of the day…[57:35]

-How John' s decoction tea works (and why you should sip hot beverages throughout the day)…[63:15]

-The strange food called “kitchari” and why John highly recommends including it in your diet…[67:00]

-John's recipe for the best sourdough bread he's ever had…[71:00]

-And much more!

Resources from this episode:

Eat Wheat: A Scientific and Clinically-Proven Approach to Safely Bringing Wheat and Dairy Back Into Your Diet

-Previous podcast with John: The Zen of “The Zone” – How To Breathe The Right Way When You're Working Out.

-Book: Wheat Belly

-Book: Grain Brain

-Book: Deep Nutrition

-Book: Lights Out – Sleep, Sugar & Survival

The LifeSpa website where you can download free guides for how to eat “in season”

Do you have questions, thoughts or feedback for John or me? Leave your comments below and one of us will reply!

Ask Ben a Podcast Question

51 thoughts on “Eat Wheat: A Scientific and Clinically-Proven Approach to Safely Bringing Wheat and Dairy Back Into Your Diet

  1. Hannah says:

    Hi Ben!
    I am a little late to the party on the episode but was wondering if you had any thoughts on freshly milled wheat flour in the baking of bread. I’ve been milling my own organic wheat and have been seeing a huge difference but didn’t know if you had come across any evidence to that effect.
    My understanding is that when you mill it and bake with it close to when its milled it stops the oxidation of the fats and preserve the nutrients.
    Just wanted to hear your thoughts. Thanks! Love your content.

  2. Carl says:

    Good Podcast for those who are scared of touching anything with wheat in it.

    What are your thoughts Ben or John on sprouted breads

    (Companies such as Ezekial)?

    Is it the only way to eat bread?

    Tx in advance.

  3. Jeep says:

    Amazing episode. Looking forward to read John’s book. Would you (John or Ben) have any specific recommandation for severe leaky gut condition (Crohn’s disease).

  4. Rob says:

    Hope to hear you get Nora Gedgaudas on the podcast soon in light of her new book. She rebutted Douillard heavily on his paleo-archeology recently in a facebook post. I also enjoyed the conversation that Douillard and Perlmutter recently had on his podcast. Great to see seemingly opposing viewpoints find common ground through rational conversation.

  5. Brenda says:

    I’m still laughing with Gary about the marshmallows! LOL :)

  6. Greg says:

    I loved this podcast! So very informative. This is the reason your podcast is in my top 3 favorites. So impressed with your enthusiasm to learn from multiple perspectives and and not just trying to validate personal biases. I always had a hunch that bread has been getting a worse rep then it deserves. #thatbreadlife.

  7. Robin says:

    My head is spinning…my child was diagnosed with autism (he is almost 4). He was put on gf/cf diet, and recently transitioned to SCD. I’m worried im denying him what his body naturally needs, especially after this podcast. Not sure there us a resoonse needed, but want to say thank you for giving me more things to think about and discuss with his doctor. Please continue with the great work, Ben!

  8. betsy says:

    LMAO “The lone Sausage”. I really appreciate your sense of humor. Laughing out loud spontaneously is the best stress relief!

  9. Duarte says:

    Hi Ben,

    Where did you find the ingredients for the decoction tea? I’m trying to buy them.

    1. Get his book. The link is in the shownotes. Well worth it.

      1. John says:

        I heard three of the ingredients but where do you even get those?

        1. I highly recommend you read his book. Everything and so much more is in it. The link is in the show notes above.

  10. Will Shriner says:

    What was the exact recipe for the decoction tea, I heard the herbs, but didn’t see the exact amounts of each.

    1. This is all in John's book! In great detail! Link to the book are in the shownotes above…

  11. Sven says:

    Hi Ben,

    I’d like to know whether Dr. John can answer this for me (or you if you know):

    I signed up for the 3-season diet challenge. But for the January guide, the recommendations are given for winter. The problem is, I live in South Africa, where it’s summer right now. Does Dr. John account for different climates in different regions, anywhere? If so, I can’t find it.


  12. Sven says:

    Hi Ben,

    Great podcast, thanks!

    I have read Dr. John’s book and although he says one should focus on only eating high quality sources of wheat (ancient bread with no additives), he still mentions that sometimes, the processed version is fine and if the body is decongested, should be tolerated due to stong digestion.

    What’s your take on this? Or will you, in the future, allow yourself some “deadly food” once in a while?

    Thanks Ben!


    1. Nah, I'd personally rather "cheat" on the good stuff, like ribeye steaks, dark chocolate and red wine. ;)

      1. Sven Gevers says:


  13. Melanie says:

    What do you think of MRT food sensitivity test for wheat “intolerance”?

    1. I really only like Cyrex…

  14. Gary says:

    OK, never mind.. I never heard of Marshmellow Root

    Marshmallow Root

    (Althaea officinalis) is perhaps the most demulcent of the three herbs in this formula. It has been studied to protect the stomach lining from excess acid and protect the intestinal tract from intestinal irritants, such as the toxic form of carrageenan. (9) Medicinally, it has been approved by the German Commission E in supporting inflammation of the gastric mucosa, and for irritation of the oral and pharyngeal mucosa. (9)

  15. Gary says:

    OK, for the decoction tea did he say

    Slippery Elm


    Marshmellow? like the white ones?

  16. Justin says:

    How does someone search for bread locally without the additives that were mentioned. I live in Portland OR so assume it would be easy, but am not sure what to search for.

    Btw thank you as this podcast might help my girlfriend tremendously as she isn’t allergic to gluten but in the process of trying to rebuild her gut so she can break down more grains.

    1. Brett says:

      I went to whole foods and bought fresh rosemary sourdough bread at their bakery yesterday. only ingredients were: organic wheat flour, water, sourdough starter culture, salt, rosemary, cultured organic wheat flour, water, organic semolina flour

  17. Kevin says:

    Great podcast!! I did not see the link for the slippery elm tea recipe in the show note. May have overlooked it Any help with that would be great.


    1. Brett says:

      I went to whole foods and bought fresh rosemary sourdough bread at their bakery yesterday. only ingredients were: organic wheat flour, water, sourdough starter culture, salt, rosemary, cultured organic wheat flour, water, organic semolina flour.

    2. Blake says:

      Just found it:

  18. Mike Campion says:

    As usual, a great podcast Ben and a great guest. A bog fan of John and a YT subscriber to his channel. I tried Keto last year and despite getting leaner, I began to feel like s*it after a few months, especially with my mood and and lack of energy. John speaks very much sense and eating the right foods in season is far better in my view than trying to make ketosis the be all and end all. I am actually now thinking that the state of ketosis is detrimental over the long termini should only be used as a therapeutic measure over a limited duration. Rebounding and dry skin brushing form part of my daily protocols and because of John, I have started to eat sourdough bread and more grains again. I have even (shock horror) taken a bit of advice from McDougal and Greger… and more recently, Dr Fuhrman. Cutting out starch wasn’t good for me and I have not gained a belly by eating it again, along with bread and rice. I am definitely changing my view from having becoming fixated with the Bulletproof and Keto gurus. Once again, a great show.

  19. Gawain says:

    Another great interview thanks! Loved the last section on circadian eating, both seasonally and the time of each day. Ties in with what Jack Kruse has been saying, and it’s a habit I’ve been gradually switching to (ie. no fruit this UK winter!)

    Makes sense about poor lymphatic circulation being a culprit of many health issues. I’ve suspected that mine has been crappy for the past few years, so started a skin-brushing and daily NIR sauna protocol 4 weeks ago. I already had sub-10% bodyfat, but poor vascularity, which always puzzled me. That’s totally changed already. Going to keep this up and try out some unprocessed gluten at some point!

  20. Justin Edward Guimond says:

    Gotta’ say… although I haven’t read this book yet, I’m skeptical of this based on both the Ayurvedic agenda and Ben’s drive to have interesting guests on (vs. the veracity of their content).

    Anyone familiar enough with Ayurveda to comment?

  21. Sven says:

    Hi Ben and John,

    A couple questions:

    1. Does the 3 season diet have adjustments to other regions of the world other than the US? I live in South Africa, so it’s the complete opposite for me seasonally. I checked the website and didn’t see an adjustment.

    2. What would John recommend starting out with? Should we do his short 4 day home cleanse, drink the decoction tea, clear out the lymph/liver etc.? What would be the best procedure? I read the book, too, but don’t really know where to start.


  22. Brett says:

    Hey Ben/john, I did ketosis for about 3-4 months last year and it absolutely wrecked me. I have low thyroid and low testosterone compared to where I used to be and my digestion went down the pooper. I started feeling a little better when I added carbs (and even better after grains more recently). I think my biggest problem though is the fact that i don’t digest fats well. i lost a bunch of (good) weight in ketosis because i couldn’t eat enough food cause i was always bloated. do you have any suggestions for decongesting the gallbladder for fat digestion and also for increasing thyroid? i already listened to your recent thyroid podcast but i was wondering if you had anything to add?

  23. Jered says:

    He talks a lot but I don’t understand what his main point is? Should we eat more “natural” gluten source (like what kind?) how should we implement doing this, is thier a way to detox our brain?

    1. He goes over all this in GREAT detail in his book. We only scratched the surface. Highly recommend you give it a read….

  24. Michael Padula says:

    ill give a listen but the wheat we eat now is not even close to what our ancestors ate. I know of a guy in NY state who has heirloom seeds to grains that used to be the norm in this country.

  25. Kayla says:

    Also he didn’t really address roundup or dairy pasteurization. The whole story just isn’t here.

  26. Kayla says:

    This makes no sense to me. If it’s the bad oils in the processed bread that makes people feel bad, why do they feel better on processed gluten free bread with the same oil??

  27. Wendy Emmer says:

    Hi Ben! I listened to your podcast with John Doulliard and near the end you said Jessa makes great sourdough bread. Could I get that recipe? My name is Wendy, and my husband Jamie and I have been fans of yours for a long time. My daughter Kate is the Foundation trainer that came by your home to offer a few tips. Thank for ALL the great information you consistently supply. Sincerely.

  28. Rick says:

    Hi Ben,

    Wheat definitely causes problems in some individuals (Celiac Disease). Recent studies (rodent studies where the animals are essentially genetically identical and are sacrificed for brain examination at the end of the study) suggest one can have a normal gut (where biopsies to detect any reaction to wheat are taken and the “gold standard” for reaction to wheat) yet still have evidence of adverse reactions in the brain. This suggests the “gold standard” test does not cover all adverse reactions to wheat.

    As to dairy, there is a long-term association of dairy with cardiovascular disease including heart disease. A Casein protein diet (the major protein in cow’s milk is casein) is associated with cancer in lab animals when casein is a larger component of the diet.

    There are unanswered potential risks with either of these 2 dietary components and until they are explained in humans my personal diet will will have little of either.


  29. Susan says:

    i went to the site to find the guides on how to eat in season, but don’t see them at least not on the landing page nor under the articles tab. any link to the specific page?

    1. John goes over all this in GREAT detail in his book. We only scratched the surface. Highly recommend you give it a read…the link is in the shownotes above.

    2. Brian Klein says:

      If you search for “In Season” you will find them. They are listed by month.

    3. Joe says:

      It took a while, but I finally found the guide.

  30. Josh says:

    Hi John/Ben, have you looked into the paleo-loved Cyrex tests? Do you think they are just as inaccurate as fingerprick?

    1. I talk about Cyrex a ton in my podcasts and it is super accurate. I am a fan.

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