[Transcript] – Vaccines vs. Natural Immunity, Sudden Death In Athletes, The Best Early Treatment Of COVID, The Joe Rogan Vaccine Podcast, Can You Get COVID Twice & Much More With Dr. Peter McCullough.

Affiliate Disclosure


From podcast: https://bengreenfieldfitness.com/podcast/dr-peter-mccullough-podcast/

[00:00:00] Introduction

[00:00:44] Podcast Sponsors

[00:03:09] Guest Introduction

[00:04:05] How people like Joe Rogan and U.S. senators have benefited from Dr. McCullough's COVID treatment protocol

[00:10:36] Vaccines vs. a therapeutic approach for treating and preventing COVID

[00:22:20] Can you get COVID more than once?

[00:28:37] Podcast Sponsors

[00:30:44] Can you transmit COVID if you're asymptomatic?

[00:35:00] Is there any validity to the “cocoon effect”?

[00:37:17] Questions on the accuracy of COVID cases being reported

[00:43:35] Concerns about COVID vaccines promoting myocarditis in young children

[00:51:29] The genesis of effective treatment and prevention of COVID in the medical community

[00:55:49] Prospects for a truly safe COVID vaccine on the horizon

[01:01:29] The latest info on the Omicron variant

[01:12:22] How Dr. McCullough stays healthy and fit

[01:17:32] Legal Disclaimer

Ben: On this episode of the Ben Greenfield Fitness podcast.

Peter: If COVID could be magically transmitted by people with no symptoms, it would be the first respiratory illness in the history of medicine where that's the case. Whether or not someone's received a vaccine, once they have COVID-19, the vaccine has failed to do what it's supposed to do. There's been multiple calls to authorities to shut down these vaccine programs because of the unacceptably high rates of death.

Ben: Health, performance, nutrition, longevity, ancestral living, biohacking, and much more. My name is Ben Greenfield, welcome to the show.

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Well, folks, you're no doubt familiar with my podcast guest today if you've been following some of the science behind COVID, and the vaccination debate, and all the chatter that's been going on surrounding that. He's an internist, he's a cardiologist and he's an epidemiologist. His name is Dr. Peter McCullough. And, he practices internal medicine, the management of common infectious diseases and cardiovascular complications of viral infections and particularly injuries developing after the COVID-19 vaccine. He lives in Dallas and he's kind of been all over the media, all over the news lately. He has lots of peer-reviewed publications on the infection and he also has a few notable papers out there. He was recently on the Joe Rogan podcast. At least that was a few days ago, and it seems that that has kind of blown up of late and has gotten a lot of media notice.

And, Peter, how's the blowback from that been? I mean, I know that you were pretty prolific on a whole bunch of platforms prior to that, but Joe Rogan has a pretty popular show if you notice that the attention on you or what you're doing has kind of been even more magnified since that particular interview.

Peter: Well, thanks for having me on the show. And, as a practicing doctor, I'm one of the few doctors in the media that see patients as part of my regular work duties through the week. About half the time seeing patients, half the time in scholarship as an author, editor, a researcher, now, news commentator.

Joe Rogan was a terrific experience. It turns out he's a very nice guy, very personable. He had just had COVID-19 and he had received really the protocol that I drew up for America and for the world in the first publication in the American general medicine in 2020 and then in reviews in cardiovascular medicine, December of 2020. So, Joe was very appreciative. He actually received what's now the copyright of the McCullough protocol. So, first time he actually got to meet the person who masterminded the treatment that he had received. And, he turned basically what would have been a 30-day illness into about a three-day illness. He communicated with Aaron Rodgers. Aaron Rodgers received the same thing.

We heard now that there's a whole flurry of senators who have COVID-19 as the vaccines are failing. And, I hope they're all receiving early treatment. They're reporting relatively mild symptoms which is wonderful, the hospitals are not overflowing. So, I'm hoping now that we've got a good installation of an early treatment framework, a state of mind. Now, people understand they can't wait to start treatment when they're three weeks into it in the hospital. We shouldn't be getting these panic calls at this stage.

It shouldn't be a surprise, by the way, when someone gets COVID-19, the calls need to happen on day one. In fact, patients by this time should have asked their doctor. Are they ready to treat them when they develop COVID-19? If the doctors are not ready, who do they refer to? Where are the monoclonal antibody centers? What are the hours of operation? How do they do the oral and nasal sanitizing to kill the virus so they don't spread it around? All these fundamentals people should have at this point. COVID-19 should not be a surprise two years into it.

Ben: Yeah. So, you had a paper that came out kind of outlining what you recommend for the early treatment which from what it sounds like, you know that that's what Joe, for example. Then you're right, Joe's a nice guy. I've actually been on his podcast, I guess, three times now. He's fantastic. He's super smart. I think sometimes he seems to play dumb on some of his podcast episodes just to, I think, get his interviewees to chat. But yeah, he's a really smart super nice guy.

And, yeah, I remember he put out a video after he got COVID about all these things he did the monoclonal antibodies, et cetera. But regarding that protocol, is there kind of a layperson's description of that protocol or downloadable document that somebody could reference regarding what you recommend for early treatment?

Peter: Sure. That document was published and posted on the internet. Now, it has been downloaded, utilized probably tens if not hundreds of millions of times. And, it is called the COVID-19 Home Treatment Guide. It's offered through the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, aapsonline.org. It's also available by the Truth for Health Foundation, truthforhealth.org. Go to Guides and you can download it. It gives all the information on what needs to be done, everything from using a povidone-iodine and dilute peroxide in the nose and mouth to start killing the virus. The nutraceuticals and supplements, what you have over-the-counter. Everybody should have a home treatment kit assembled at home from stuff you buy over-the-counter. You'll spend probably less than $20 and be ready for COVID-19.

And then, it lists the monoclonal antibiotics and then the prescription drugs that the doctor will call in in most cases, especially when people over age 50 with medical problems and certainly all seniors over 65. There should never be a senior citizen that goes without treatment.

Ben: You mean prescription drugs like ivermectin, for example?

Peter: Sure. So, after the monoclonal antibodies which, by the way, are emergency use authorized, we have Lilly has a combined product called bamlanivimab combined with etesevimab, those two antibodies against the viral spike protein. We have Regeneron which has been the workhorse. That's, again, an antibody pair. That's casirivimab and imdevimab. And then, now we have the GSK product which is a single monoclonal antibody but it's against the stable part of the spike protein called sotrovimab which actually has the best overall profile. I mean, that monoclonal antibiotic alone in a randomized trial reduced hospitalization death by 85%.

Now, we have the other drugs. And, the other drugs I think have a modest impact compared to the monoclonal antibodies, but we use them until we got the monoclonal antibodies and we still use them. They're partially assistive hydroxychloroquine has overall about a 24% risk reduction that's in a publication that I have with now actually surgeon general of Florida, Joe Ladapo. Hydroxychloroquine has over 300 supportive studies. And again, it's modestly effective. Ivermectin more effective than hydroxychloroquine, about 60 supportive studies. There are probably about a 70% overall reduction in events but need to start early. And, it's a weight-based dosing.

And then, outside the United States there's Favipiravir for Japan and Russia. And, other countries that's Avigan. That's pretty modestly effective. That's very similar to the new drug called molnupiravir. That's going to be modestly effective as well.

Ben: Yeah.

Peter: Yeah. And then, now the Pfizer drug. Yeah, the Pfizer drug, just to finish that layer, the Pfizer drug is a pair of drugs, it's what's called [00:07:00]_____ protease inhibitor combined with an HIV protease inhibitor called ritonavir. And, that had very low rates of events in the clinical trials but still favored strongly the Pfizer drug. So, we have a good layer of oral antivirals. We combine that with azithromycin and doxycycline.

Ben: Okay, got it. So, these monoclonal antibodies, there's a guy, he actually did a video after you got interviewed by Joe Rogan. He goes by ZDoggMD, Zubin Damania, I think, is his name. And, he was commenting on these monoclonals, which are just laboratory-produced molecules that kind of act as a substitute antibodies to help to mimic the immune system's attack on cells from what I understand. And, he basically had this idea that he was skeptical of therapeutics. He liked vaccines because he said they use the body's natural immune defenses and train them, and that these therapeutics circumvent what the body does. They try to hack around it. Whereas, vaccines kind of prevent disease better than some of these therapeutics like monoclonal antibodies.

I mean, what's your thought on that, this idea that vaccines would implement the body's natural immune system defenses better than say a therapeutic mite?

Peter: Well, they're two different indications. Remember, vaccines are used to prevent the occurrence of the disease. That's what the approval is for the vaccines. So, whether or not someone's received a vaccine, once they have COVID-19, the vaccine has failed to do what it's supposed to do. So, we've already passed the vaccine layer. So, the vaccine is indicated to prevent the occurrence of COVID-19. The monoclonal antibodies are indicated to treat active COVID-19 illness. So, they're two separate indications. The two can't be confused with one another.

Ben: Do you think that pharmaceutical companies are finding profit in these therapeutics because there's this whole idea that almost a conspiracy theory that vaccines are going to make pharmaceutical companies a lot of money? But from what I understand, these therapeutics are actually pretty profitable for a pharmaceutical company, even more profitable compared to a vaccination, yeah?

Peter: Well, that monoclonal antibodies are expensive to produce. We basically have to get the gene that codes for the antibody which is a designer antibody. And then, have it fully humanized in a mouse model with the human immune system, and then it has to be transferred into a cell suspension, typically a hamster ovary suspension to start cranking huge amounts of the antibodies. That's how a Humira is made, and that's how Praluent and Repatha. These common monoclonal antibodies we use in our practice every day for other conditions. So, the three monoclonal antibodies for COVID-19 involve the same production.

So, the point is they're expensive to produce. And, I think it's wonderful that they got brought forward through operation warp speed and that they're available. Everyone should just know where to find them so that we shouldn't have to go through this fire drill every day of, “I'm sick, what do I do next?” It's like, “Come on, we've had these out now.” The monoclonal antibodies came out before the vaccines.

Ben: Yeah.

Peter: They came out in November of 2020 and their full emergency use authorized. So, everybody should just make some phone calls and know what their action plan is. It's a one-hour infusion you go in, you get a one-hour infusion, and you —

Ben: Is that an IV, the infusion?

Peter: Yeah, it's an IV. It's very well-tolerated. The only problem I've had, I use them every day in my practice. The only problem I've had is when the infusion is rushed too much. I always tell the patients, don't let the nurses or people rush you, just take it an hour, infuse it in another hour, make sure things are okay, and then go home after that.

Ben: You mean rush like they speed up the drip too much?

Peter: They speed it up. They say, “Oh, we'll get it done in 20 minutes.” And, I've had now two cases of serious reactions when it's rushed too much. We just keep it under.

Ben: What happens if you rush it?

Peter: Kind of facial redness, swelling, trouble breathing. In general, on these IV infusions, we just don't rush them. The body accepts them if they are over a reasonable period, an hour, is the standard. And, with the GSK product, it can be used in the label, the emergency use authorized label all the way down to age 12. Every so often, we'll get a teenager with asthma or cystic fibrosis now and we can use these in the severely ill people.

Do you know the only kids who are hospitalized are the ones who receive no treatment? They receive no early treatment and they get really sick at home, they end up in the hospital. We can avoid all that with high-quality outpatient treatment.

Ben: Well, what's an early treatment like? How early? Is this the sign of the sniffles? Is this totally asymptomatic and then they test positive? What would you consider early to be?

Peter: I'm glad you mentioned that. It's very age-dependent in general. So, the older someone is, you can almost always predict they're going to have a rough time with COVID. The younger they are, you can almost predict it's going to be the sniffles. The problem is for both groups, it starts out as the sniffles. So, right now if we have somebody in their 80s and they develop some nasal congestion and sniffles, we say, “Listen, get a test.” And, we can even do a home test. They can go to the pharmacy and get the COVAX and test and do a simple antigen test and see if it's positive. If it lights up positive, it has a strong positive predictive value in somebody who is symptomatic. We say, listen, that's COVID-19, let's start treatment.

So, what would that be for an 80-year-old? Again, we'd immediately start dilute povidone-iodine, nasal washes. And, we're talking about a nasal spray. Spray it up in the nose, sniff it back and then spit it out, then gargle with Scope or Listerine and start doing that every four hours. That starts to cut down the nasal viral replication. Then, we ask the seniors to take supplements, zinc 50 milligrams, elemental zinc, vitamin D 5,000 international units. That's prevention. We go up to 20,000 units a day in active treatment. Vitamin C, 3,000 milligrams, quercetin 500 milligrams twice a day. And then, we add an over-the-counter antihistamine antacid called famotidine or Pepcid, 80 milligrams a day. So, that layer we can start away because everybody's going to have this at home in their COVID emergency kit. So, everyone's ready to go at home. The idea is be prepared. We're two years into this. No one should be surprised if they get COVID-19. No one should be scrambling the day they get a positive test. They should know what they should do.

Ben: Yeah.

Peter: So, we have that list of really important is preparation. You can imagine my phone is blowing up every day with people who are panicking. And, it's like, listen, we're two years into this. We've had U.S. Senate testimony on this twice. We're going to have the third set of testimony in January. We have home treatment guys. We've got four national telemedicine services, 15 regional television services. We've had innumerable online seminars and et cetera. Everyone should be prepared. Then, after that layer of nutraceuticals and supplements, the 80-year-old would get the monoclonal antibody infusion.

And so, my experience if we get the monoclonal antibody infusion on day one or two, then we can skip hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin. I simply add some doxycycline or azithromycin to cover the bacterial part of the sinus infection and bronchitis. And then, we use inhaled Budesonide. That's a steroid. It's proven in a randomized trial to reduce hospitalization risk by 80% alone. We use oral colchicine, an anti-inflammatory for a full 30 days proven in a huge clinical trial called the COLCORONA trial over 4,000 patients double-blind randomized placebo control, super high-quality study. So, we know we got colchicine. We use aspirin throughout as a blood thinner, 325 milligrams a day. For an 80-year-old, I'd continue that for 90 days, reduce the risk of late heart attack or stroke as well. And then, on day five of pulmonary symptoms, we use prednisone, which is a common steroid we'd use for asthma or for emphysema. And then, the only question left now is blood thinners.

So, the last call I had which was about five minutes before I came on was an 80-year-old. And, we went through all the drugs, I talked to the daughter and she goes, “Well, she's already on a blood thinner called Eliquis for atrial fibrillation. I said, “Fine, you've got that covered.” I had a call five minutes before that.

Ben: So then, you wouldn't put her on aspirin?

Peter: No, I'd go ahead and use both right now because we know that COVID-19 is the most thrombogenic condition we have right now. The call I just had before that somebody was on a blood thinner or we used a blood thinner and we added aspirin as well.

The lead blood thinner for really sick patients is actually Lovenox and we dose it in a milligram per kilogram dose every 12 hours. But what I've described for you is about four to six drugs, it's called the McCullough Protocol. It is called sequence multidrug therapy. It has been a standard now going on for over a year. It's used in different formats throughout the United States.

Americans should be reassured that while I was working with my teams of doctors, mainly Italian, U.S. collaborators, Dr. Pierre Kory and Paul Marik were working in the FLCC group separately from us. They arrived at similar conclusions. They have slightly different protocols called I-MASK and MATH+. Dr. Didier Raoult was working separately in Marseilles, France as well as Vladimir Zelenko. They came up with an approach that, again, same principles, slightly different combinations. People should be reassured that early treatment does work the papers by Raoult, by Zelenko, and by proctor [00:16:53]_____. Even with our earliest simplest protocols, 85% reductions in hospitalization and death. I think with the monoclonal antibodies now, the other things I mentioned, we should have a very rare case that would need to be hospitalized.

Ben: Yeah, yeah. But back in December of 2019, I went to India just as there were a couple stories coming out about COVID. And, I got lucky and that I just basically made myself my own first aid kit for traveling to India. I bought 25 of those N95 masks back when they were far less expensive than they are now due to demand and had my whole first aid kit. Very similar to what you've actually described, although I didn't have monoclonals or anything like that. I had ivermectin. I had peptides. I had hydrogen peroxide, a little travel nebulizer. I had the whole kit. And so, got lucky in that. I had all that stuff at the house and in my travel kit and managed to actually get out of India just the nick of time as they were starting to kind of shut stuff down. But one of the things was this nebulizer. I still have it. I've got it on my desk and you're talking about the nasal wash. You ever mess around with the nebulizer as an alternative to something like that? Did I lose you? Peter, I can't hear you. There you go. Now you're back. I asked you about the nebulizer. You disappeared there for a second.

Peter: Yeah. I like the idea of a nebulizer. Go ahead and nebulize, dilute hydrogen peroxide, put a few drops of Lugol's iodine, L-U-G-O-L-S iodine in it. That's a blue bottle you get on Amazon for about 5 bucks. And, if it stings, it's too strong. Make it more dilute and nebulize it and just sniff it up in the nose. And, what you do is you kill the preponderance of the virus. The virus is easily killed. The mistake people have been making is they've been focusing on hand sanitizer. It's not even spread on the hands, it's not a hand infection, it's an infection in the nose. You have to do something to sanitize the nose and people have been preoccupied with the hands. So, it's been one of these ridiculous things. Everybody should know it's not a hand infection, we don't go around saying COVID-19 is a hand infection, yet we're incessantly —

Ben: Yeah. I know. I was in that boat because I get lots of packages from Amazon. I remember when this first happened when I got back from India, I was spraying down all my packages with hand sanitizer and alcohol and just thought anything I touched could infect me. And now, I think it is prudent to just focus on the nasal passages.

Actually, I mentioned to a few people that I was going to have you on my show. The number one question I got over and over again, Peter, was everybody said, “What does Peter mean when he says you can't get COVID twice?” My uncle, or my neighbor, or my friend, or me. I feel I got COVID twice. And, somebody, 10 minutes before we got on to interview today, sent me over a tweet by Robert Malone, the guy who I guess was one of the inventors of the vaccination or did a lot of research behind it. He actually tweeted, he was like, “Peter is wrong, I had COVID two times, and so did my wife, and so did many others.” What's the deal with getting COVID twice? Is that established that you can't get it twice? Is it just really rare and few and far between? Or, what's going on with that?

Peter: Yeah, it depends on context. So, let me give you a context. So, my daughter had documented COVID-19 with the characteristic signs and symptoms last year in 2020. And, she's in her mid-20s, she needed a little bit of treatment on the back end and she's fine, well-documented and prolonged illness. COVID-19 is always two weeks to four weeks progress.

Now, because in my family, some people are germaphobes and we have some elderly people in my house. My daughter's in California and she developed a cold. She developed a head cold. And, everyone says, “Well, listen you better get a COVID test.” And, she goes, “Well, I already had COVID, you can't get it again.” Get a COVID test. So, the poor thing canceled her flights and she was getting daily COVID tests. So, the first day on Tuesday it was negative. The second day on Wednesday, it was positive. The third day on Thursday, it's negative. And now, she's home and her cold's completely gone. So, was that COVID? Based on what I know as a clinician, a doctor, it's like, “No, that was a false positive test.”

What people are being confused with is the false positivity of the test. I actually looked at her test and the cycle threshold on it was 37. The CDC says no cycle thresholds above 28. So, all we're doing–

Ben: Because the more cycle threshold is, the more likelihood of a false positive, right?

Peter: False positive. So right now, the NHL announced they're going to daily testing. There's 47 players in the NFL. Notice, nobody's sick and in the hospital, but we have an epidemic of false positive tests. This is all just a product of false positive testing.

Now, we know–

Ben: So, it's not like you couldn't get COVID twice, it'd be rare and few and far between for something like that to ever happen or is it biochemically impossible to get it twice?

Peter: This idea of “I got it and my wife got it too and we both got it twice,” I mean I think honestly it's a contextual thing, it's a problem of getting a test and getting a false positive test.

Let me give another example. My dad had COVID-19 in a nursing home. He got really sick. He was sick for a month. He got over. He got better. They kept testing them to see when they were going to let them out of this COVID unit. He intermittently tested positive 17 times over the next three to six months. He didn't have COVID-17 times, it's just that the test remains positive intermittently for a long period of time, it's considered a false positive test, particularly in someone who's had it before because we now know the viral remnants of the virus last in the body for a year and a half. Bruce Patterson showed that. So, we tell people, “Listen, if you've had COVID-19, don't get another test because all you're going to do is get some type of false positive test and be in this conundrum.”

So, many people are under the idea that they think they're getting COVID-19 over and over again. And, I always tell people, “Listen, take a look at it. Did you have a 30-day illness where you were really sick and did you end up on the ventilator twice and have X-ray changes, whatever?'” They're like, “No, really one time I just had a drippy nose or I was trying to travel to Hawaii or something.” I said, “Listen, that's not two cases of COVID.” You had one real case likely and you have one false positive or intermittently positive post-infection. But it's a one-time illness. We know that because the virus is analogous to SARS-CoV1 where there's a one-time infection and lifetime immunity. Our CDC has been legally challenged by lead attorney Aaron Siri said, “Listen, if you've got a second case, if you really think somebody can get it twice, show it to us.” And, the CDC can't [00:24:03]_____ because they're trying to make the case that everybody should take the vaccine. And, it's clear once you've had COVID-19, you can't get it again.

And so, there's about a hundred cases in the peer-reviewed literature where doctors think, “Aha, here's somebody who's got it the second time, a hundred.” Now, we're talking a hundred out of eight billion people on Earth. They think there's a hundred cases. I've looked at every one of them and every one of them is basically just another exercise in false positive testing where on one occasion, it's a positive test but they're not really sick. And, another occasion, they really have COVID and they're sick and they have X-ray changes and hospitalized. We know this because think about how many cases we've had the United States. If it was possible to get it a second time, the nursing homes would be sweeping and cleaning out patients and on the ventilator over and over again. We never hear about it, never. There's no–

Ben: Maybe a dumb question but, is there a better way to test than the PCR test to eliminate the chances for false positives popping up?

Peter: Yeah. So, I've proposed, listen, that COVID-19 is such a serious illness. If people really want to propose that they get it two times, that boy, the second time, they better have a PCR at a low cycle threshold under 28, and have confirmatory antigen testing, and have limited sequencing which now is FDA/EUA-approved. I mean, you better nail it down. That's the reason why the CDC doesn't have any cases because there's nothing verifiable. There are no second cases.

Ben: Well, by the way for that early treatment stuff that you were talking about, I'll hunt it down. So, for people listening in, I'll put all the shownotes at BenGreenfieldFitness.com/DrPeter, Dr. Peter. So, if you go to BenGreenfieldFitness.com/DrPeter, I'll put that there so that you can access that and the previous podcast that I've done about this kind of stuff.

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Now, kind of sort of related to the testing thing, Peter, the claim that asymptomatic testing isn't necessary because there's no asymptomatic transmission of COVID. Is there really no data that you can't transmit it if you're asymptomatic?

Peter: Well, if COVID could be magically transmitted by people with no symptoms, it would be the first respiratory illness in the history of medicine where that's the case. Do you see what I mean? So, we basically making something up if we say suddenly somebody is perfectly asymptomatic and they literally could just walk into a room and magically somebody else get it. Respiratory illnesses in the history of medicine have never been that way. So, to kind of assume a magical quality about this illness, in my view, was kind of a mistake to begin with. We should have always assumed that, yeah, you have to be symptomatic to transmit it just every other respiratory illness. But having said that–

Ben: Yeah, it's kind of a unique illness. Especially if you believe the idea that it was engineered for gain of function and the spike protein has been modified, et cetera. I mean, wouldn't it kind of make sense that it would act differently than some of the previous SARS?

Peter: Well, it's acting pretty similar to SARS and it's certainly not acting as bad as Spanish flu. So, I mean, yeah, it's up there, but it's not that unique. And again, it just violates everything we understand about communicability. Having said that, there was these papers published saying, listen, 30 to 50% of spread is asymptomatic. And, for that reason, that triggered all these shutdowns, all these lockdowns and people were trying to shake hands–

Ben: Yeah, that's a pretty high percentage.

Peter: Yeah. And, people were trying to touch. And so, what happened was these models were predicted actually out of University of Washington. I'm a UW graduate in medicine there and I can tell you it's called the Murray model. They were predicting 30 to 50% spread. And so, these models were swept across the United States and then there was all these reactions based on them.

So, in Dallas as an example because of the models, the army corps of engineers came into Dallas and they started setting up an army field hospital in the Dallas County Convention Center. They had thousands of cots, IV bags, ventilators, medics. They were all standing at there, ready. And, I published an op-ed in the hill when I saw this happening. I said, “These models are completely off. It doesn't spread asymptomatically. No respiratory illness does.” I said, “We'll never use a single bed in that army hospital.” And, it turns out we never used a single bed. So, the models were completely off base and we ended up wasting an enormous amount of money.

And now, two papers, one by CAO, C-A-O, and the other one by Madewell published in 2020 basically disproved asymptomatic spread. CAO basically looked and looked and looked in on 10 million Chinese and said, “Find one person who's got the virus who really doesn't have symptoms.” And, it turns out, out of 10 million, they found 300. And then, they looked at every single person they touched and came in contact and nobody got the virus. And so, the bottom line is, if you even have really have the virus and it's there by sequencing and you're asymptomatic, your body is forming immunity to it, you can't spread it anyway.

Ben: What about if you're vaccinated? If you're vaccinated, could you spread it?

Peter: Those studies haven't been done among the vaccinated. Now, it's possible that the vaccine could take a little edge off incipient symptoms and make somebody spread the virus more. It's possible. I don't want to blame the vaccinated for anything. People took the vaccines, thought they were doing the thing. But the bottom line is we know now just with good measures like not going to school while you're sick. If you're sick at school, go home. Those measures are working. How we know that? Because everyone's back at school and there's no school outbreaks. None. We've been at it for six months now. No school outbreaks, not a single one.

Ben: Yeah. So, I was listening to the ZDoggMD guy that I was talking about after you got interviewed by Joe Rogan and related to the school outbreaks. He said that there's lower incidence of kids getting COVID infection in highly vaccinated adult communities, like some kind of a cocooning effect where if you have a whole bunch of people vaccinated in a community, kids are getting it less because it reduces the amount of circulating coronavirus apparently. So, there's protection for kids who aren't vaccinated. What do you think about that whole idea? There's this whole proposed or so-called cocooning effect.

Peter: It doesn't look it's supportable. I think people would want to think that, but there's a paper by Annika Singana Yagam and it was published in Lancet. And, the title of the paper is called “Community transmission and viral load kinetics of SARS-CoV-2 delta.” And, in that paper, this idea of cocooning was kind of evaluated. And, the bottom line is they found that 39% of transmission is from fully vaccinated to fully vaccinated in the house. So, the kids that aren't protected at all from adults who are vaccinated.

What we know is that in the pediatric meetings in September and October, in the meeting minutes, the general agreement by the experts was that through May, 40% of kids had already had COVID-19. They had basically natural immunity. You don't get it twice. It was it was one and done.

Ben: They know that from doing antibody tests on the kids?

Peter: There are antibody prevalence studies and also just the community overall transmission rates. And now, we have data through the delta outbreak, I estimate that we'll probably have 80% of kids who have already had it. And so, that's reason why we're seeing no outbreaks. Scott Atlas presented at a meeting with me recently data suggesting that elementary school teachers and junior high teachers are the safest of all professions from COVID-19 because the kids are an immunologic buffer. They've already had the illness.

Ben: Yeah.

Peter: Yeah, they've already had it. It's already over with. The beautiful thing is you don't get it a second time, so that immunity is robust, complete and durable. There's over 140 studies now that support natural immunity. All we're left with is a false positive conundrum. And, if we just stop testing people and only use tests in the acutely ill, we'd be a lot better off.

Ben: Now, over to the vaccination piece, there's this whole, how do you pronounce, the VAERS, V-A-E-R-S database like the adverse event reporting. In terms of the adverse event reporting, obviously there's a lot that's being reported and some people say that because it's a voluntary reporting system and anything that happens after a vaccine gets reported to VAERS that there's a vastly overestimated estimation of the number of vaccine complications because it's just kind of one of those things where there's just more being reported period. Do you think that's the case or do you think that there's actually something to the idea of all these reports of issues with vaccine injuries based on the VAERS database?

Peter: Well, I'd point you to a paper by Cody Meissner, M-E-I-S-S-N-E-R, MD. And, that's in the association of AAPS news, the American Academy of Pediatrics. And, this was before COVID. And, it asked the question, “Who reports to VAERS?” Who reports to VAERS? And, the answer is family members and the individual patients. It's only 14% at that time, only 14. And, do you why? Because it's so hard. Oh, my gosh, it's multiple pages of entry. You have to enter in all the hospital data, all the laboratory data, the doctor's information, doctor's phone numbers, fax numbers. And, each page is under the threat of a federal imprisonment or fines if it's falsified. So, we know 86% of the time, it's doctors, nurses, coroners, the pharmaceutical company–

Ben: At least 86% of the time before COVID. We don't know what's at now though.

Peter: Well, I have to tell you, I think it's the exact same number because there's two different ways to look at who's being injured, who's dying after the vaccines. We can use VAERS and we can use CMS. CMS doesn't rely on voluntary reporting. CMS knows who's been vaccinated, and who died, and who's been hospitalized.

Ben: Yeah.

Peter: And so, we can look at the relationships and get to. So, VAERS is always thought to be under reporting, never overreported, underreporting. There's been multiple papers on this. The question is with COVID, to what extent is it underreported? So, in the publicly available CMS whistleblower lawsuit against the U.S., U.S.'s government's being sued for death after vaccination. The underreporting relationship is established with VAERS, and the answer is on mortality, it's a fivefold underreporting. Messed pretty solid. And, they've looked at it multiple times.

Ben: It seems what they should do is figure out what are the chances that you could die or have an adverse effect. Anyways, if you look at say the data on the death rate in seniors, you could vaccinate somebody who's 90 years old and the next day they could die, but it seems you'd have to figure out what the statistical background rate of death in that population would be to begin with and then compare it to the background rate.

Peter: Well, you look at what's called temporal association. So yeah, people are always dying every day. But in general, the rate's pretty steady day by day by day. So, if you give a shot and the shot has nothing to do with the death, the background death rates are steady day by day by day, it's kind of a flat curve. But if you give a shot and there's a huge spike in the death rates after the shots are administered consistently over and over again in VAERS and in CMS, we know the temporal relationship is really tight. And, I tell you, it's a cannon shot went off. It's 50% of the deaths occur within 48 hours, 80% occur within a week.

Ben: After the vaccine, you mean?

Peter: After the shot, yeah. So, it's not flat at all. It's not flat. So, it's nowhere near saying this is a background rate of death.

Ben: Yeah. Wow.

Peter: This is very strongly temporary related. And, not only that, but there's nursing home studies where there's a nursing home study from Scandinavia where they have a hundred nursing home patients who die of the vaccine and they actually have the charts to review. And so, those exist out there. Let me give you the nursing home study.

Ben: Yeah.

Peter: See if I can get this for you. I want to make sure we get the quotations.

Ben: Take your time. We want to make sure we get it right.

Peter: Right. You could say, well, that the VAERS system has got a flaw to it. We can look at another database called the VigiSafe database, VigiSafe. That's the WHO safety system.

Ben: Okay.

Peter: And, can look at deaths there. And, they find that basically the same relationship and it's an age relationship. Who's dying after the vaccine? It's those over 65. So, it turns out of the serious safety reports after vaccination, it was called serious adverse event safety reports. It was about 4% of all the serious reports are death when they get reported in VigiSafe over age 65.

And then, we can look at the yellow card system the MHRA system, and there, there is an independent report from an independent consulting company. That's the lead consultancy to the World Health Organization. They're called the evidence-based consulting group. And there, they evaluate the yellow card system and they found the same thing, an irrefutable temporary relationship. People take the shot. Within a few days, they die. And, they reported to MHRA. They said, “Listen, these aren't safe, shut them down.” So, there's been multiple calls to authorities to shut down these vaccine programs because of the unacceptably high rates of death.

Ben: That's for the elderly. But what about for kids? I've been hearing especially about young boys and myocarditis, is that more COVID or more the vaccine where something like that is occurring? Because I know the spike protein can be problematic for myocarditis and so natural COVID could cause myocarditis. But what about the vaccine? Which one's worse when it comes to increasing risk of myocarditis?

Peter: Well, let's take the natural infection first. So, with the natural infection, people who are sick enough to be admitted to the hospital and sick enough to be in the ICU, there will be a rate, probably about half of them will have an elevated cardiac troponin above the upper limit of normal. The blood test troponin is a test for heart injury. But the same is true for those in ICU for pneumococcal sepsis, and meningococcal sepsis and for urosepsis. That's just basically an ICU elevation of troponin. There aren't associated EKG changes or echocardiography changes. So, it doesn't meet a definition of myocarditis, but that is in the COVID literature. Actually, the Chinese reported this and importantly, they never labeled it as myocarditis, they labeled it as a cardiac injury pattern as seen by the cardiac troponin testing.

In the kids, it's very different. The kids actually take the vaccines and then they develop an explosive syndrome of chest pain, difficulty breathing, the parents bring them into the ER, and they have cardiac troponins that aren't just a little bit elevated, they're about a hundred times elevated compared to the upper limit of normal and they have dramatic EKG changes. About a quarter of them have basically abnormalities on echo. And, the CDC first reported this with the FDA back in June. They had 200 cases and the FDA immediately put a warning on it. So, listen, Pfizer and Moderna can cause myocarditis. And then, what happened is, parents kept taking their kids in for vaccination and now we've got over 16,000 of these cases. And, we know now the initial CDC initially reported that 90 of these kids needed hospitalization. It takes a lot to hospitalize a 15-year-old, let me tell you.

And then, Tracy Hogue published, from the University of California, Davis, at the end of the summer thousands of cases from the VAERS and V-Safe data, 86% were hospitalized. And now, we have a paper by Tron [phonetic] and colleagues, Tron and colleagues from University of Utah at Salt Lake where they indicate now that the hospitalization rate, I believe, is about 79%, still a large number of individuals have to be hospitalized for this. The point I'm making is this myocarditis is no joke, it's nowhere close to being the same thing as the respiratory illness. There's a paper in New England Journal of Medicine which I think is just invalid where they say, “Well, there's more myocarditis with COVID-19.” I said, “Well, it's because there's a lot of old people in the hospital with COVID-19 and they get in the ICU. It's not clinical myocarditis. These kids who basically are taking the vaccines, they're minding their own business at home. They're actually coming into the hospital for myocarditis.” They're apples and oranges. Apples and oranges, they're not the same illness. The myocarditis. This one is clear. The FDA is telling parents, don't vaccinate the kids because they get myocarditis. I think parents should just pay attention to those ones.

Ben: Yeah. What I was trying to figure out was it seems the myocarditis seems to happen especially in kids after the second dose, the so-called booster dose of the vaccines. That's what I was trying to figure out was, is it the actual vaccine or is it some kind of an immune response that kicks in after the second dose that increases the chance that there's going to be some kind of a crossover effect on the heart? Does that make sense?

Peter: You're close. I mean, there's a paper by Avoglio [phonetic] and colleagues that have really worked this out that the heart really basically gets primed and the parasites are basically attacked by the spike protein. And, that spike protein starts to attack these cells, the cells provide the integrity to the capillary system, to the cardiomyocytes. And, there is wide open-heart inflammation, heart damage.

There's a paper by Choi and colleagues from Korea. A young man takes the vaccine, a few days later, it develops explosive chest pain, goes in the ER. Seven hours later, he's dead. They do an autopsy. His heart is loaded with inflammation, loaded throughout the conduction system, et cetera.

Another paper by Lim and colleagues from Korea, young woman, they're able to save her but she needs an ECMO, a form of advanced support. She went completely flatlined, they're doing CPR on her. And now, there's this collage. I don't know if you've seen these European athletes. I think, they're nearly up to 200 athletes who have dropped dead on the field.

Ben: Yeah, like dying during practice. Yeah.

Peter: Yeah. And, they're holding their chest and then they fall over. And, the million-dollar question is who took the vaccines and when did they take them? We know that once somebody develops myocarditis, they absolutely can't have any physical activity. Physical activity will trigger a cardiac death event.

Ben: Yeah. I think there's a lot of variables there too though because I think it was last year I was reading a report in The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research like practices have changed, the environment where people are practicing has changed. Even the fitness of some of these athletes because they're able to train less has changed. So, I think there's a lot of variables. I'm not sure one way or the other if it's a vaccine issue with all these athletes dying or just so much has changed since COVID anyways in terms of their training environment, their training conditions, their training fitness. It's super tough to say.

Peter: Well, it is. But yeah, I can tell you as a cardiologist, this is my field. In the last 20 years, I'm telling you, certainly the last 10 years, there is very meticulous screening for hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, for instance. These people–

Ben: By the way, I've got a massive left ventricle just from all my endurance training.

Peter: No, I'm not talking about genetic hypertrophic cardiomyopathy where there's a risk for sudden death and people get defibrillators and stuff. So, we have very good genetic testing. We have echocardiography, MRI, ECG, that hereditary fatal cardiomyopathy, that no longer steps on the playing field. Those days are over with.

The other thing we know is the athletes now are incredibly well. The sports physical for these pro athletes has turned out to be a very detailed evaluation. We know that sports drinks have dramatically improved. So, everything I'm mentioning is actually working to have decreased sudden death rates on the field. And so, to have an explosion, a couple hundred athletes basically fall dead on the field is distinctly unusual. And, because the only thing that's really changed is vaccination, it does make one wonder if this is subclinical myocarditis and these are cardiac deaths. The one question, I think, that's perplexing is why aren't we seeing this in the U.S.? And, it's really ex-US.

Ben: Yeah, it is kind of weird.

Peter: Well, the only thing I can tell you there is we never really know in the US who took the vaccines. So, look at Aaron Rodgers as an example. There's kind of this general assumption that everybody in the NFL took the vaccines, and then suddenly Aaron Rodgers gets COVID-19 and people say, “Well, did you take the vaccine?” He said, “No, I didn't.” So, it looks like the athletes have a way of non-disclosure that they don't have to disclose their vaccine status and they can just kind of go along with a general talking point by the team. They work it out legally.

Ben: Yeah.

Peter: So, we really don't know within sports right now who took the vaccine and who didn't.

Ben: In the U.S., at least, yeah. 

Peter: So, I think that's the point that thank goodness, we don't have our star athletes dropping dead on the field. But what they're seeing in Europe obviously, these are huge losses. They're coming up on about 200. I mean this is extraordinary. They're losing star player after star player.

Ben: It's crazy. Now, in terms of your own genesis when it comes to getting into all of this, I mean, when you were a doctor like 10 years ago, do you ever imagine that this is what you'd be doing or what you'd be immersed in or if you'd be at the forefront of a debate like this?

Peter: No, I didn't. And, most doctors like myself, we're not very kind of military-oriented, we're not very courageous or jumping into battle. But the way COVID-19 worked out is it's not a problem that government agencies can battle. So, the CDC and NIH, FDA, they don't treat anybody. And, people are falling sick all over the place. It really boils down to doctors. Doctors are either going to step up or they're not. And, what happened in the United States is we had about 500 doctors step up and it takes a lot of courage, it takes intellectual guts, it takes a lot of clinical skill. Everything, there's just not that many doctors who kind of meet the grade. A lot of doctors are just on the sidelines. They tell patients there's no treatment for COVID-19. And, I think honestly a lot of them are just, they don't want to treat COVID-19, they're afraid of it.

Ben: Well, that's what I wanted to ask you. Let's say somebody wants their primary care physician or their family's physician to be a physician who's kind of familiar with some of the early treatment stuff that you talked about and maybe is thinking with an open mind here. Is there a list somewhere? You just mentioned 500 doctors, but I mean, is there a physician's directory or anything like that for people who may want to be, I don't know, looking for a new doc or trying to find somebody who's kind of, I guess, got their head screwed on the way that you do?

Peter: Yeah. So, the list is kept by Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, aapsonline.org. It's updated once a month. And, I know more and more doctors do join the list. AAPS has all the training seminars and webinars and all the instructional materials on how to do this. We're far enough along. Now, we're a year into it. We've had the treatment guides and all the standards, the Frontline Critical Care Consortium has just a little different blend of approaches. They, again, have webinars monthly. Actually, they have weekly educational updates to get everybody up to speed.

So, there's plenty of opportunities to get involved and treat COVID-19. And, more and more doctors are doing it.

Ben: Yeah.

Peter: Thank goodness, the doctors do it who they would. I can't imagine if nobody treated COVID-19. Oh, my lord, it would have been a disaster. It was bad enough as it was. I testified in the U.S. Senate, November 2020 that half of the lives could have been saved. At that time, we had about 200,000 deaths and I thought about half could have been saved because it took a learning curve before we could learn how to treat it. And, it took time for me to publish it. I was the first one to get a publication over the finish line. That just takes time. Otherwise, there's no dissemination. We can't even get anywhere.

Once we got the news out in the November, December early treatment hearings and got that permanently as part of U.S. history, the telemedicine services took off, the regional telemedicine services took off, doctors started to engage. And so, in March of 2021, I told Texas Senate, I said, “I think I'd upgrade it to about 85% of the lives could have been saved if every doctor jumped into action and helped patients.” Now, the drugs themselves aren't perfect, they've gotten better over time, but you can imagine a senior citizen who is sick, everyone's afraid to see them because nobody will come over and see them and sit at home getting sicker and sicker. They call the doctors off two or three times. The doctor's office tells them, “No, there's no treatment.” And then, they finally just toss in the towel and they go to the hospital.

And then, the vast majority of people who die with COVID, they actually die in the hospital, they don't die at home. So then, the hospital is part of that death sequence. You can imagine all of that would be avoided because the drugs reduce the intensity and duration of symptoms. And, by that mechanism, they reduce that panic trigger to go to the hospital. And, if you can get through it at home, by definition, you never get to the hospital, so you never get to the point of death.

Ben: Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. Now, there's a lot of other vaccines because I've interviewed some other docs who've brought this up and also I've kind of been trying to keep my finger on the pulse of this because I'm not anti-vax, I'm not opposed to getting a vaccine, I'm not convinced, the ones that are out there right now are safe enough at least as far as long-term data. But there's some like Novavax or Covaxin or Vaxxinity. There's another one I was following called Inovio. And, some of these look like they might be a little bit safer. For example, Inovio, I know, is something that's just delivered intradermally like to the deltoid muscle, so you aren't apparently getting the spike protein making its way to the brain, and liver, and the kidney, and the eyes, and the vascular system.

And, I'm just curious. In your opinion, are we on the cusp of maybe having access to a vaccine that might be a little bit safer or at least have fewer adverse events?

Peter: I agree with you. I agree. Actually, all those comments. I am very pro-vaccine. I've taken all the vaccine schedules. Like you, I went to India. You probably took extra vaccines, so did I. I took two vaccines–

Ben: I actually didn't, but I honestly was being a little bit of a cowboy too.

Peter: You're braver than I am. I took the vaccines. But for these first generation of vaccines were called genetic vaccines where they're on lipid nanoparticles, that's Pfizer, Moderna and Johnson and Johnson. I got to you, this turned out to be too dangerous. They get distributed all into the body. They go into the brain. They go into the heart. They do damage in these organs. They damage blood vessels. We know that they install the genetics to produce the spike protein. And, that causes blood clotting. It damages blood vessels. So, there is just this whole first wave. It's true in many medical products, the first wave doesn't make it. The very first blood thinner to replace coumadin, ximelagatran and didn't make it, there was some liver failure deaths. And so, just like these ones, these ones aren't going to make it. They're going to ultimately get pulled. For sure, they will.

And, the newer ones coming along. I think the lead one is Novavax. Now, that's a spike sprite protein on a matrix. It's gotten through all the phase, two-phase three trials doing the journal medicine, 90% vaccine efficacy. Looks like it could be more easily modulated to cover some of the other variants, a sore arm but no systemic effects. Now, they've got some booster data. They have actually longer follow-up than Pfizer, Moderna. It's just a higher quality program all the way around. No genetics involved. So, it's not going to do–

Ben: Yeah. But it's not approved yet in the U.S., is it?

Peter: Well, it just got approved in Australia by the TGA. It's going to have some ex-U.S. markets, but the U.S. should not be dragging their feet on Novavax in my view. I think, that should be fronted. And, the sooner we can get off Pfizer, Moderna, J&J and get onto Novavax, I think people can breathe a sigh of relief.

My concern is our seniors are now uncovered. We knew that Pfizer, Moderna, J&J, they just don't last very long, only about three to six months. So, our seniors are uncovered right now. And, that's the risk. Vaccinating kids is not, in my view, a top public health priority. Basically 80% have already had it and they don't get serious illness anyway. But the seniors do, the seniors really get sick, the nursing home patients. I've had so many of my seniors in my practice get sick, they need coverage. And, if Novavax came out, everything I know about it right now provided the safety holds out. We could easily make a shift. And, that could be, in a sense, a universal booster.

Ben: Yeah.

Peter: And, we get off the genetic vaccines. Inovio is an interesting technology. That one's farther behind and that is more of a back to a genetic vaccine of a different type. There are really a lot of different vaccines in development. And, I'm hopeful we're going to get something that's going to have some durability. I don't think anything that's going to last less than a year is going to make it because people are not be going in every three months or six months for a shot. It's just not going to work. And, the coverage is going to be too spotty.

Ben: No especially with all these new variants coming out. Yeah, the Inovio, I guess, it's like just DNA plasmids and water. There's nothing else in there. Even as far as adjuvants that I'm aware of. It's just pretty safe and clean.

Peter: I know, but we wouldn't want the DNA coding for the spike protein because once we get back to coding for it, we don't want install the genetic code to produce a dangerous protein in the body. That experiment has been a disaster. The reason is because it's uncontrolled. For some people, they must take up a lot of the genetic material and make a lot of spike protein for a long period of time. And, for some people, it's lethal. It's obvious it's lethal within a few days. Whereas, if it's a limited spike protein, I can tell you for Novavax, they tested 5 and 25 micrograms. They went with the 5 micrograms. It's a tetanus shot. If I gave you an overwhelming amount of tetanus toxoid, I could kill you. But if I give you a tetanus shot and it's limited, it doesn't kill anybody and you get immunity. That's kind of the concept with Novavax.

Ben: Yeah, yeah. I think that Inovio actually despite it having minimal adverse events from the research, I've seen it so far. Just because what I do is I just use an app called Feedly and just type in the search term that I want to get updates for each day. And, I've got Inovio as one that I'm following. I know it does contain the plasmid that encodes for the whole length of the spike of glycoprotein, but again, minimal adverse events. So, I don't know. I agree with you though. Novavax seems like one of the safer ones out there. 

But regarding the variants, you told me right before we were going to record, you mentioned that you had some updates on Omicron. What's going on with that?

Peter: Well, Omicron is the most mutated of all the variants so far. It took a big jump in mutational status. Remember, alpha, beta, gamma, they were moving along, inching along in terms of changes. The virus replicates billions of times. It's going to make mistakes. Everybody should know that. There's always variants. We've always had variants in the background, always. We started out with the Wuhan wild type virus and then it kind of quickly mutated to alpha.

When I had it last year, I had alpha. I was in research. I got genotyped and I knew what I had. But Nissen and colleagues from Mayo Clinic and working with a group called Inference, a research group in Boston, they showed, “Listen, you get to 25% of the population vaccinated, you're going to allow a dominant variant to move forward.” And, that's exactly what happened with Delta. The vaccine program is responsible for the Delta variant. And, what happened was Maharashtra, India, one of the states, they got to about more than 25% vaccinated and the virus mutated up multiple times, about seven times in the spike protein and the spike protein and paper by Venkatakrishnan is the first author and from this company, Inference, and Soundararajan is the senior author. They showed endogenic escape with delta.

Now, with Omicron, now we have Venkatakrishnan, again, as first author, Soundararajan as the senior author from Inference in Cambridge, Massachusetts. They also have an installation in Bengaluru, India and also in Toronto. Those three centers published this most recent paper on Omicron. They showed that it is far and away the most mutated variant. It has 26 unique spike protein mutations, 30 spike overall, far more than others.

To give you an example. For instance, an alpha only had four unique spike protein mutations. Beta only had six. Gamma only had eight. Delta had eight. Of those, the most lethal actually was gamma. Gamma was tough. We didn't have that. That was mainly down in Brazil. We've had a good dose of Delta now which has been hard. And, I can tell you clinically I've fought Delta now for once. It's highly contagious, highest transmissibility index if anything we've seen. Regional wild type was transmitting index of about two. 

Well, with Omicron, got 26 unique mutations, 10 in the receptor binding domain. We've got three deletions. One insertion, which is very unusual and it's probably a very dysmorphic receptor-binding domain. It probably doesn't bind very well. So then, we had this report come off from the CDC, December 10th where we only had 43 cases in the United States and we found out that 79% were in fully vaccinated. So, Omicron was originally described in fully vaccinated travelers crossing the border of Botswana. Then this report hits from Denmark titled report status of the SARS-CoV-2 variant called Omicron in Denmark dated December 13th, 2021. You'll find this on the internet. And here, in this report, they are basically describing that we have a situation, there's almost an inversion. So, if we look at other variants, if we look at other variants, not Omicron, in Denmark which is a highly vaccinated country, they have tons of COVID because the vaccines don't fully stop COVID, they had 44,000 cases of fully vaccinated people with COVID out there. It turns out that they represented 67% of everything they had was in the fully vaccinated. Now, with the Omicron variant, the number is 79% of Omicron is fully vaccinated in Denmark. So, we've seen this inversion.

And now, the most interesting thing has happened is our CDC has a program that everybody in this field pretty much checks in with it every week, and it's basically a variant. It's called monitoring variant proportions and we check it every week. Well, they have two filters on it. One of it's called Nowcast, N-O-W-C-A-S-T. The Nowcast on is what the CDC is predicting. So, it turns out that the CDC predicted for the week ending December 11th, they predicted 12% Omicron. And, the week ending December 18th, which is three days ago, the CDC predicted 73% Omicron. That was predicted.

Ben: That's 73% of the new cases are Omicron.

Peter: Yeah, in the United States. They predict it. Now, when we turn off the CDC protection algorithm and look at what we have, it turns out none of that's materialized. Omicron, a week ending, the week ending most recent week that they have is only less than 1%. So, we have a situation where it's clear that the CDC has kind of, in a sense, the data are in arrears, they'll come forward but the CDC is way overpredicting–

Ben: It's an estimate. Because I had a headline this morning, Omicron sweeps across the nation, 73% of new U.S. COVID cases that should actually be modified to say estimated 73%. And, you're saying that that's inaccurate.

Peter: Estimated. Omicron is going to really have to get a head start here to get going because Delta is so dominant. Right now our understanding is Delta has got a greater transmissibility than Omicron. I don't see how Omicron, I was on national TV the first day of the news when Omicron broke. And, I said, “Listen, I don't see it. How is it going to outcompete Delta?” Delta is so successful. Omicron probably get an ecological niche but it wouldn't have a driver.

Now, the one driver it may have is that it looks like it may be more successful in the vaccinated. And, if that's the case, most people in the United States took the vaccine. There's not that many unvaccinated people around, so most people have taken the vaccine. And, in fact if Omicron has a selective advantage in the vaccinated, that would be the explanation of how we could start to make a larger ecological niche for itself.

Ben: But then if a vaccinated person gets Omicron, they could do the whole early treatment regimen that you talked about and still see some effect from that, right?

Peter: Sure. But so far in Omicron, what the CDC is telling us is that there's almost no pulmonary symptoms. So apparently, there's the first U.S. death. It's taken nearly two months for the first U.S. death. First Omicron case, I think, was described the 6th of November that in fact there's no pulmonary symptoms, so it's very hard for constitutional symptoms like fever or what have you to be fatal.

Now, it may have been a fatal thrombo–a blood clot or something.

Ben: Yeah. Maybe not fatal, still issues though. There's a whole sperm count fertility issue. There's some long-term issues dictating. Even if it's kind of asymptomatic or not, a severe infection, you may still want to consider some kind of early treatment, yeah.

Peter: Oh, I agree with you. Listen, I would not underestimate any of these. When Delta first came out, we were thinking, it could be milder. Yeah, we couldn't get a straight story from India and it turned out Delta was just really hard. I think Delta was even harder than the others.

So, Omicron could be very serious. You're right, early treatment. I mean, the principles of early treatment is these viruses are going to replicate for 14 days in their body, they're going to rip the body for 14 days. Early treatment can drop it to about four days. The nasal hygiene approach, that has the strongest effect on dropping these PCRs to negative. It's amazing. The Chowdhury protocol literally just absolutely decimated the viral load in those.

Ben: Yeah.

Peter: And so, the virus can't build up to a high count.

Ben: I know. Look, I've had COVID but I still every week, I just with my little nebulizer here on my desktop, I still nebulize and actually in the morning and in the evenings. I'm one of those weird guys who does the whole ayurvedic thing where I wake up in the morning and I do coconut oil pulling and tongue scraping. And, I keep this little bottle of a hypochlorous acid, it's HOCl, which is kind of similar effect to hydrogen peroxide or iodine in terms of similar effects, in terms of the antiviral properties of it as a nasal spray. And, I just do a couple of squirts of that in the morning. And then the evening, I go and brush my teeth, do another couple of squirts, use a nebulizer once a week just because I travel so much. Just because even though I've had COVID, it doesn't hurt and it takes me two seconds anyways to do this stuff, kind of brushing my teeth. So, yeah, I'm kind of staying–

Peter: You know where I learned that from is I was completely unaware of this field and I got called by Paull Gossett. He's an anti-infective dentist in Chicago. He goes, “We've been using these techniques from the very beginning.” You mentioned sodium hypochlorite, that's actually–

Ben: Yeah, HOCl. Yeah, [01:07:31]____. It smells like bleach.

Peter: Yeah, it's just a few drops of bleach and water. So, it turns out when President Trump mentioned bleach, he should have had a dentist presented. The American Dental Association, that's in their recommendations to treat cytomegalovirus and Epstein-Barr virus gingivitis anyway. Obviously, you don't swallow it, you don't splash it around, it's a tiny amount. But now, we've moved on to the povidone-iodine, which is very safe.

And, by the way, the ophthalmologist–

Ben: By the way, what kind of iodine did you just say? You said that really fast, povidal iodine?

Peter: It's called povidone-iodine.

Ben: Povidone-iodine. Alright, cool.

Peter: P-O-V-I-D-O-N-E iodine. That's the same thing as Betadine, B-E-T-A-D-I-N-E. 10% solution is about 5 bucks on Amazon. I just bought one. It just got delivered today. And, I can tell you, it's a winner. You got to dilute it down quite a bit. You dilute it down to a 1% solution. But the ophthalmologists use that as eye drops and the sinus doctors have been using that to treat sinusitis and facial types of infections forever. So, this is very safe. It's been used in the nose and the mouth forever. It's part of medicine.

In fact, one doctor said, “Listen, let me give you my sinusitis sheet.” And, he gave me how to make a Betadine solution because, yeah, I've been doing this my whole practice. He goes, “It just turns out that this is now popular because it's COVID and it's so effective against the virus.” I said, “Wow, I just can't believe that I personally had it.” And, it's in my nose for three days and I didn't do anything. And then, invaded my lungs, I could have avoided a lot of mystery if I just would have zapped it in the nose.

Ben: Yup. Listen to your dentist everybody.

Hey, I know that you're busy, and you're still practicing, and you're doing all these interviews, and you're getting bombarded by the media, and I'd imagine your stress levels are a little higher. Are you taking care of yourself? Do you have a fitness regimen? Are you hitting the sauna? Are you doing anything yourself from a preventive standpoint beyond squirting dental stuff up your nose?

Peter: Again, I wish have done it. I've already had COVID, so I don't need to do anything now because I can't get it again. And, the other thing too is I've had broad exposure to Delta. So, I've had people get cough in my face, I've made some house calls, no masks, kids all over me, sick with Delta. You can't get it a second time. So, the natural immunity is wonderful and people just need to trust it. But I'm trying to keep myself in shape. The crisis, because there was such a need for early treatment and I was able to fill that gap the soonest and the most definitively, then others helped out greatly. Pierre Kory and the frontline critical care consortium. Other people came on, but 500 doctors taking care of the country. We're busy.

Ben: Yeah.

Peter: Let me tell you what, the phone is ringing off the hook, so I'm working on personal help the best I can. We've got a beautiful day here in Dallas. After you, I've got Lou Dobbs, I've got Laura Ingraham, Ingraham Angle tonight. I'm going to try to squeeze in an hour where I can get out and do something. I had several patients this morning and I still got to do their notes and handle their issues. And then, I'll move into the next day. I really haven't taken a day off since the start of the pandemic. And, in many ways maybe I was just the right person at the time. Years ago, I was a big marathoner. I had run a marathon in every state in the United States. And, people said, “Dr. McCullough, do you have the stamina and the endurance to do this?” And, I said, “Gosh, out of anybody I know, I guess I do. I just have more work capacity and physical capacity to do it.”

Ben: Yeah. Well, get some walks in the sunshine. And, man for me, it's a song. It seems like especially because I've been home more since COVID. I'm in the sauna almost every freaking day, walk everywhere, and then I'll do 20 to 45 minutes, some kind of strength training or high-intensity interval training every day. And, I'd honestly a lot of people quit going to the gym during COVID and everything. I got in the best shape of my life just because I was able to be consistent at home.

But yeah. I know we're getting ready to wrap up here, but if I can help you out at all because I know you're doing a lot of good work. But my jam is health and fitness and nutrition, so anytime I can help you out, just reach out, man. I know you're doing good work and I want to make sure that you stay healthy yourself. So, you know how to get a hold of me anytime you need any tips in that department.

Peter: Okay, I will. And, you're right, it's so important–

Ben: I'm not going to run a marathon with you.

Peter: Well, listen, it's so important because for COVID-19, it's so clear that people who are fit in good condition with good diets, they breeze through it. And, people who are obese and unfit, this can be a fatal illness. So, if out of anything we've learned, now is we've had two years of this, that people do need to take things seriously and be fit. Actually, through the first year of the pandemic, I intentionally lost weight and ran even more thinking I was going to get tagged and I was going to get COVID. And, sure enough I did and I was glad I developed pulmonary COVID, but I wasn't hospitalized. I even ran on day eight treatment day six and I was very short of breath but you can do that as long as you don't have a fever. And, just to kind of show America that one can do it.

Now, I was outside, I spent almost the entire time outside, very important in COVID-19. Get outside, do not stay inside. Do not wear a mask and keep rebreathing the virus, you want to actually reduce the viral reloading.

Ben: Yeah, yeah. Well, hopefully you inspired all my listeners to go sign up for a marathon. And, I'm certain that that's the best way to prevent COVID. Go run 26 miles. I'm just kidding. I personally have become disillusioned with ultra-endurance. And, I actually think there's a law of diminishing returns when it comes to cardiovascular health. But that's the discussion for another day.

Peter, thanks for coming on my show, man, and sharing all this stuff with us. It's been incredibly helpful. And, for people listening in, Peter did, like I mentioned, he had a fantastic kind of long-form interview with Joe Rogan. And, I'll link to that because I think that'd be a good companion interview for you to listen to along with this one. And then, I'll also link to as papers on the success and early treatment of COVID-19 and some of this kind of practical ways that you can do early treatment yourself for as we have established already kind of pennies on the dollar for this stuff. And, I'll just link to all the resources as well as all the other podcasts I've done about this whole jam. If you go to BenGreenfieldFitness.com/DrPeter. That's ben greenfieldfitness.com/D-R-Peter.

Peter, thanks for coming on the show, man.

Peter: Thanks for having me.

Ben: Alright, I'm Ben Greenfield along with Dr. Peter McCullough signing out from BenGreenfieldFitness.com. Have an amazing week.

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Dr. Peter McCullough is an internist, cardiologist, and epidemiologist. He practices both internal medicine, including the management of common infectious diseases, as well as the cardiovascular complications of both the viral infection and the injuries developing after the COVID-19 vaccine in Dallas TX, USA. You may also have heard his recent, somewhat popular interview with Joe Rogan from last week, in which he discussed early management of COVID, vaccine issues, and plenty of other COVID related topics (which we also visit on this podcast). 

Since the outset of the pandemic, Dr. Peter McCullough has been a leader in the medical response to the COVID-19 disaster and has published “Pathophysiological Basis and Rationale for Early Outpatient Treatment of SARS-CoV-2 (COVID-19) Infection” the first synthesis of sequenced multi-drug treatment of ambulatory patients infected with SARS-CoV-2 in the American Journal of Medicine and subsequently updated in Reviews in Cardiovascular Medicine.

He has 46 peer-reviewed publications on the infection and has commented extensively on the medical response to the COVID-19 crisis in The Hill, America Out Loud, and on FOX NEWS Channel. On November 19, 2020, Dr. Peter McCullough testified in the US Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs, and throughout 2021 in the Texas Senate Committee on Health and Human Services, Colorado General Assembly, New Hampshire Senate, and South Carolina Senate concerning many aspects of the pandemic response. Dr. Peter McCullough has had 18 months of dedicated academic and clinical efforts in combating the SARS-CoV-2 virus and in doing so, has reviewed thousands of reports, participated in scientific congresses, group discussions, press releases, and has been considered among the world’s experts on COVID-19.

Dr. Peter McCullough is known for his iconic views on the state of medical truth in America and around the globe, piercing through the thin veil of mainstream media stories that skirt the major issues and provide no tractable basis for durable insight. On his podcast, The McCullough Report, he is joined by experts in medicine, biotechnology, public health, and policy to bring critical information and insights to the listeners in a concise and understandable format.

During our discussion, you'll discover:

-How people like Joe Rogan and U.S. senators have benefited from Dr. McCullough's COVID treatment protocol…04:23

-Vaccines vs. a therapeutic approach for treating and preventing COVID…11:04

  • ZDoggMD
  • Monoclonal antibodies are expensive to produce
  • Monoclonal antibodies came out in November 2020, before the vaccines; for Emergency Use authorized; administered via IV infusion
  • Only problem is when the infusion is rushed where some adverse reaction may occur
  • The only kids who are hospitalized are the ones who do not get any treatment
  • Nebulize with
  • With early treatment, hospitalizations for COVID should be a rarity

-Can you get COVID more than once?…22:29

  • Robert Malone
  • COVID-19 is always 2 weeks to 4 weeks
  • What most think of as a second infection is actually a false-positive test result
  • Positive results of tests repeatedly done are actually the same infection, not a completely separate case
  • Some tests have cycle thresholds higher than 28, which could lead to false positives

-Can you transmit COVID if you're asymptomatic?…30:45

  • Viral remnants last in the body for 1½ years
  • The virus is analogous to SARS-COVID-1; one time infection, lifetime immunity
  • The CDC has not been able to show that there are second COVID-19 cases; there are no verifiable cases
  • If COVID could be transmitted by people with no symptoms, it would be the first respiratory illness in the history of medicine where that’s the case
  • SARS-CoV-2 Transmission From People Without COVID-19 Symptoms – the study that triggered the lockdown
    • This study used a simplistic model to represent a complex phenomenon
  • There have not been the predicted outbreaks with resuming school

-Is there any validity to the “cocoon effect”?…35:09

-Questions on the accuracy of COVID cases being reported…38:05

-Concerns about COVID vaccines promoting myocarditis in young children…43:40

-The genesis of effective treatment and prevention of COVID in the medical community…51:27

-Prospects for a truly safe COVID vaccine on the horizon…56:17

  • First generation vaccines are called genetic vaccines and will eventually be phased out
  • Blood clotting result from current vaccines; liver failure deaths
  • Novavax shows a great deal of promise (just got approved in Australia)
  • Inovio vaccine
  • Feedly app Ben mentions

-The latest info on the Omicron variant…1:01:28

  • Omicron is by far the most mutated variant with 26 unique spike protein mutations
    • Alpha only has 4 spike protein mutations
    • Beta only has 6 spike proteins
    • Gamma only has 8 spike proteins; the most lethal variant
    • Delta has 8 and is highly contagious
  • Discovered in vaccinated travelers in Botswana
  • NowCast predictions have proven to be unreliable
  • CDC is over-predicting Omicron case estimates
  • Delta has greater transmissibility than Omicron
  • Omicron may be more successful in the vaccinated
  • Ben's morning routine:
  • Hypochlorous acid spray
  • Povidone Iodine

-How Dr. McCullough stays healthy and fit…1:12:30

  • Hasn't really taken a day off since the pandemic

-And much more!

Upcoming Events:

Resources from this episode:

Dr. Peter McCullough:

– BGF Podcasts:

– Other Resources:

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Ask Ben a Podcast Question

6 thoughts on “[Transcript] – Vaccines vs. Natural Immunity, Sudden Death In Athletes, The Best Early Treatment Of COVID, The Joe Rogan Vaccine Podcast, Can You Get COVID Twice & Much More With Dr. Peter McCullough.

  1. Ric says:

    Hi Ben, I asked you the question re vaccine at the Health Optimisation Summit / London on weekend :) and what to do if I already had vaccination.

    So you recommended this podcast which contained steps to take – just couldn’t find any in it.

    Do you have another link for post vaccination protocol? Thank-you very much

    1. Listen to my last interview with Matt Cook and also my interview with Peter Mccullough, and check out http://www.bengreenfieldlife.virusqa

    2. Peter’s whole protocol is downloadable above the in the shownotes, fyi

      1. Ric says:

        Thank-you for your quick response – I have searched many times , I could only find a protocol for if you get Covid infection “COVID-19 Home Treatment Guide” .. I was looking for a protocol for AFTER I had a mRNA vacination (to remove negative effect of vacination)..
        ITS URGENT FOR ME, – WOULD YOU BE SO KIND TO COPY THE LINK HERE.. or the text on shownotes? thankyou so much

        1. Ben Greenfield says:

          I’m not a doctor and this is not to be taken, interpreted or construed as medical advice. Please talk with a licensed medical professional about this. However, this might potentially be a helpful resource: bengreenfieldfitness.com/virusqa — these are just my own personal thoughts and not a prescription or a diagnosis or any form of health care whatsoever.

  2. elias says:

    Hi Ben, thank you for this interview. May i ask, where did Peter get this information , that almost 200 European athletes have died from heart failures recently (and due to vaccines)…I live in Europe and it is the first time i listen sth like this…
    Thank you

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