[Transcript] – The 2 Most Potent Hair Growth & Hair Loss Reversal Molecules Known To Humankind: C60 & GHK-Cu – A Big Hair Podcast With Auxano’s Jay Campbell & Nick Andrews.

Affiliate Disclosure


From podcast: https://bengreenfieldfitness.com/podcast/hair-growth-hair-loss/

[00:00:00] Introduction

[00:02:35] Podcast Sponsors

[00:07:08] The History of How the company Got Started

[00:13:26] How GHK-Cu Works

[00:20:09] How Carbon 60 Aids in Hair Growth

[00:27:03] Podcast Sponsors

[00:29:17] What Roles Testosterone and DHT Play in Hair Loss

[00:46:21] The Best Way to Use Auxano Products for Optimal Results

[00:54:13] Other Peptides or Bio-Regulators That Might Be Useful

[00:57:14] The Psychological Link Between Having Hair and Perceived Masculinity

[00:59:17] Additional Products Jay and Nick Recommend

[01:10:10] End of Podcast

Ben:  On this episode of the Ben Greenfield Fitness Podcast.

Jay:  This is not snake oil. There's a lot of products in the hair loss industry that guys are preyed upon and they get poured to almost no result.

Ben:  Like what?

Nick:  Immediately before he starts to run, and maybe 1 milligram after the run, and never has any swelling, any stiffness, or joint pain at all. He's just good to go.

Jay:  Yeah, he's like a robot. It creates literally a physiological and a psychological addiction to users because they know that if they stop taking it, now all their hair is going to fall out.

Ben:  Health, performance, nutrition, longevity, ancestral living, biohacking, and much more. My name is Ben Greenfield. Welcome to the show.

Well, folks, we've been paying attention to the social media, or maybe you heard my podcast with Dr. Cameron Chesnut about PRP, and anti-aging, and beauty, and hair growth. You're probably tuned into the fact that, A, that's a topic I'm addressing quite a bit of late. And B, I'm using myself as a guinea pig, very hairy, fuzzy guinea pig to see what of these tactics, anything from consuming colostrum to doing microneedling, to clay masks, to crazy peptides that you smear all over yourself, can actually do when it comes to either getting rid of gray hair or reversing male pattern baldness, or in my case, just wanting to sprout a giant old head of hair as a practice of seeing what I'm actually capable of achieving in the hair department.

So, in part, thanks to my guests on today's show, as well as my friend Dr. Chesnut who is in the podcast where I got covered with needles and platelet-rich plasma smeared all over my face. I'm kind of turning into like a fuzzball. I mean, I'm now growing a beard. My hair is just absolutely sprouting out of control, like those little sprouts I grow in my pantry except on my head. And my whole family is calling me Mr. Scratchy because I'm just the giant hairy puffball walking around the house now, and I don't know. Maybe I'll stop doing this at some point, but right now, I'm just having a lot of fun growing out my hair and looking like a dirty hippie. And yeah, maybe someday I'll even have a man bun.

So, first of all, you're no doubt aware that you can use lights to tweak your circadian rhythms. You could use it in good ways by looking at things like sunrise or red lights in the morning or diminishing your use of high blue light-producing devices in the evening. And you can also of course get exposed to the type of blue light emitted by phones, and computers, and TVs, and lightbulbs, even during the daytime that totally disrupt your body's circadian rhythm, and also lead to things like brain fog and almost like that headache in the back of your head after you've been working on your computer for a couple of hours. So, my hack for that is I wear a pair of yellow, like computer-style daytime blue light blocking lenses during the day. And at night, I switch to the red. And I always lose my glasses, so I've got a couple pairs of the yellow, a couple pair of the reds, just scattered around the house.

And I get them from this company called Ra. I use Ra, it's spelled R-A, because not only do they use really attractive frame styles, Italian acetate, and German engineered metal. But then their lens technology is different than a lot of other companies, like it actually blocks the spectrum of blue light that it's supposed to. And a lot of these other blue light blocking companies use cheap imports that they then just like slap cool names on and markup for lots of money. But the Ra Optics, I know the founder, Matt Maruca, he's been on my podcast and he's brilliant. All the dude does is sit around and study light and then develop lenses, and frames, and everything you need to truly block what you want to block. So, if you want to pick up a set of Ra Optics day lenses or night lenses, or if you're like me, both, you get 10% off of any of their stuff. They even have ones for kids. Both my kids have a yellow and a red as well. You go to raoptics.com/ben. That's R-Aoptics.com/ben, and you can have some pretty rock and fashionable blue light-blocking glasses wrapped around your head.

Also, this podcast is something that is brought to you by my brand new cookbook as well. That's right, folks. My brand new cookbook is finally here, and I couldn't be more excited to share this epic bounty of mouthwatering, taste bud entertaining goodness with you from meat rubs to sauces, to crazy cocktails, both alcohol-infused and alcohol-free, to wild game recipes, to full-on wild plant foraging recipes, to crazy things you can stock up your pantry with that a lot of people have never heard before, like sea moss gel, and pumpkin mashes, and all the little superfoods I sprinkle into things. It's like this blend of ancestral wisdom and modern science wrapped into a cookbook written by a guy like me who's like a total impostor syndrome chef. But I like my food, and I thought you might like it, too, so I made you a cookbook and it's ready now for you, at boundlesscookbook.com with thousands of dollars of free bonuses and stuff when you get the cookbook that you get entered into to win. So, check that out, boundlesscookbook.com.

Also, you've heard the saying it's better to give than to receive. And as much as that feeling of giving warms your little heart, it's nice to get something back every once in a while. So, I just launched a refer a friend program to my supplements company, Kion. So, what that means is I'm going to give you 20 bucks for every friend, or family member, or co-worker, or anybody that you refer over to getkion who basically get some stuff for themselves, you get 20 bucks. It's that easy. I'm just basically like paying you to send people to my website is what I'm doing really. And I figure if you're taking some of our cool supplements like our creatine, our aminos, or sipping our coffees, or having our energy bars, or anything else I've designed over there, I might as well pay you for it.

So, you go to getkion.com/bgfriends like Ben Greenfield friends. And if you go to getkion.com, getK-I-O-N.com/bgfriends, there's no lengthy intrusive signup process. You just put your email address in, and then as many other email addresses you can wrangle up, and that's it, then you just sit back and wait for the Kion cash to start pouring into your inbox. You just basically refer your friends and you get back some serious dough to use on anything you want to for your body to be able to operate at its peak potential, and that warms your little heart quite a bit by getting paid to live healthy. So, check that out, getkion.com/bgfriends.

My guest on today's show are two-fold. First, Jay Campbell. You might know Jay Campbell because, A, he wrote probably one of the most popular testosterone articles that's ever appeared on my website along with his book, which is amazing, called “The Testosterone Optimization Bible.” I've learned a ton about testosterone from Jay. And then, he was also on a podcast with me about metformin, and peptides, and testosterone replacement therapy, and a whole lot more. And so, I'll link to my other podcast with Jay, and that really fantastic testosterone article he did, and also his “Testosterone Optimized Bible” if you go to BenGreenfieldFitness.com/hairgrowth. That's going to be the shownotes for today's podcast, BenGreenfieldFitness.com/hairgrowth.

And then, along the way, Jay introduced me to this company called Entera, which he actually co-founded along with my other podcast today, Nick Andrews. And they make these weird peptides I've been smearing on my face and on my hair as this hair growth, beauty, and anti-aging hack. And these peptides are called Auxano, A-U-X-A-N-O. That's the brand name, but it's things like GHK-copper peptide and carbon 60 or C60. And it's crazy how well these topical, not injectable, but topical peptides seem to work. So, I figured I should get Jay on the show along with Nick, who's really one of the world's top peptide product formulators, he's got like 20 plus experience in the pharmaceutical world, to talk about–I don't know. What do you call these, guys, like cosmeceuticals, beautyceuticals? I don't even know that–

Nick:  Yeah, there you go. Cosmeceuticals is perfect.

Ben:  Cosmeceuticals, cool. Well, how do you guys get interested in all this in the first place, the growth thing?

Jay:  Again, Ben, it's always an honor–

Ben:  Oh, and for those of you listening in, this is Jay, by the way, who's speaking.

Jay:  Yeah. It's Jay Campbell. But yeah, it's an honor for both of us to be here today. I know I'm speaking for Nick when I say this, but we wouldn't be here right now talking about this if you did not, of all the synchronicities in the universe, start promoting our products, which was actually if you remember, June 5th last year, the same day that we launched Auxano, which is obviously our scalp health and hair regrowth product. So, again, man, props to you, man. And again, we're privileged to be here. So, thank you. In the spirit of gratitude, I'm grateful.

Ben:  Well, when I find stuff that seems to work for me–I wasn't using it for hair growth, honestly. I guess my wife and I like the firmness. It seemed to really introduce a lot of elasticity. I particularly started using it after those clay masks from Alitura. I started using the Entera after I did the derma rolling and the clay mask, and my face would just seem more plump and fuller afterwards in a good way. And my wife had the same thing going on. So, we used it for a long, long time. And then, once I started this hair growth project, I'm like, boom, I already got a bathroom drawer full of this stuff, game on.

Jay:  So, to your original question, the skin stuff, I'll just give our origin story. And Nick can share obviously, too, but Nick and I have known each other since 2016. We met online, go figure, and became really good friends.

Ben: Tinder?

Jay: He's an MMA guy and he started sparring and was getting worn on his face and he's like, “Well, I'm this brilliant biochemist. I can go and create a formulation,” and he did. And he started using on his face and he was like month in, and he said, “Dude, I got something I'm going to whip up. I'm going to send it, let Monica your wife, use it, and then tell me what you think.” And so, whatever he sent to me, I gave it to Monica and she started using it. Within literally three weeks, she's like, “Oh my god, what is this?”

Ben:  Monica's your wife?

Jay:  Yeah, Monica is my wife.

Ben:  Yeah. I met her at NEXT|HEALTH down in L.A. at the “Boundless” book launch party.

Jay:  You did. That's the last time actually you and I were physically together, but yeah. So, she started freaking and telling us it's the greatest thing ever. She threw away all our products. So, I told Nick. It's like, “Bro, we need to sell this.” Well, she told me we need to sell this. So, then that was in November of 2019, very beginning, or late October. And then, Nick went to work and we launched the company. Technically, I think it was over Thanksgiving or Black Friday. And then, like I said, we didn't really have any traction in the marketplace other than just selling to my brand. We didn't know marketing. I sent them to you and you started using them, and then you started promoting them, and then everything changed for us. So, again, very grateful. That was in June of last year. And then, subsequently 'til now, a lot of people obviously in the marketplace know about Auxano. And obviously, we can get into the weeds about it, how it works and stuff, but it's a phenomenal product.

Ben:  Well, what were you doing there? Do you just mix different things together in your lab and slap it on rats to see how much hair they grow, or what's your process actually look like? How do you get involved in all this?

Nick:  Yeah. So, where I came in, and I'll actually take a slight step back to the origin story here. Obviously, I'm a biochemical engineer by education, been in biotech and pharma for more than 20 years. I'm doing Brazilian jiu-jitsu, judo, full contact. The gis are very rough, but it was wearing my skin so thin. It sounds like a horror movie, but exercise, and you'll feel sweat on your brow. Well, when I would wipe my brow, it was blood. I was bleeding through my pores. My skin was just getting so thin. That's not a good thing. And dermatologists will just throw corticosteroids at you, which if you know anything about those, not a good choice because they actually thin your skin further over time. They hide the issue. They don't actually help repair it.

It just got to a point where I'm like, dude, my face doesn't need to look like road rash. I'd already been in the biohacking space for a while, have been using peptides for a while to heal myself in multiple facets. I know there's an answer out there. Just have to go find it. It honestly took less than a day just essentially trawling through Google for various research papers, looking for certain effects, started finding the peptides that created those effects, then just homed in. That's how we started with the cream and the serum. I homed in on GHK-Cu, like I said, having been in the biotech and pharma space as long as I have. The average person probably wouldn't know who to call to say, “Hey, I need some peptides.” Fortunately, due to my background, I did, made a phone call or two, stuff showed up in the mail.

And to answer your question now finally is basically tested on myself, started using it on half my face, not on the other half.

Ben:  Oh, that's how you did it?

Nick:  Yeah.

Ben:  That's a controlled n equals 1 experiment right there. It's like those truckers where they show half their faces aged from the UVA without the UVB pouring through the window on the side that the trucker is exposed to the sun on. And so, they got one side the ages, and then the other side that doesn't get the UVA exposure. What's interesting when you tell that story, Nick, is that in my own experience with peptides, I didn't really realize how much of almost like a topical like a superficial effect they could have until way back in my bodybuilding day. Some folks have been talking about this injectable peptide called Melanotan. And I never used it. I only just had my wife rub me down with the cheap-ass gold flake tanning lotion when I go pose onstage.

But eventually, like a decade later, I use some of this Melanotan and stuff. And within like three days of injecting something right around my belly button, the skin on my whole body started to change color, not in like a weird Donald Trump orange way, but like a really nice tan. Of course, the side effect for some men is priapism, like erections at night that just don't go away, which some guys think would be like a man's fantasy come true, but in fact, that can really disrupt sleep when you're pitching a tent all night. And so, I couldn't use it because I was one of those hyper-responders. I literally just had like a boner 24/7. So, I quit using it, but at the same time, I'm like, holy cow, peptides can have a really distinct and noticeable effects on, well, in that case skin, but this was an injectable. And correct me if I'm wrong, but you were messing around with the ones that you would apply topically?

Nick:  So, peptides, a lot of them are not effective topically. I won't dive too deep into the nerd stuff here. But basically, there's a molecular size limit, generally speaking, as to what can be absorbed through the skin. Now, realistically, that means that the vast majority of peptides are too big to be effectively absorbed in the skin. GHK-Cu is one of the rare exceptions. There are a small handful–

Ben:  Oh, and Nick, by the way, GHK-Cu is–I know the Cu is copper. And then, what is the GHK stand for?

Nick:  That's the actual molecular structure. So, you have like DNA is ATGC. So, it's the amino acid codes.

Ben:  Okay. So, it's like glycine or something like that?

Nick:  Yup, glycine, histidine, and I forget what T is off the top of my head.

Ben:  Okay.

Jay:  That's correct.

Ben:  Okay, got it. Alright. So, this GHK is, it's a small enough peptide to where, unlike some other topical peptides, if you apply it topically, it's small enough. What do you measure it, is it Daltons, if I recall?

Nick:  Correct.

Ben:  Yeah. So, the Dalton size is small enough to work and get absorbed transdermally?

Nick:  Correct. Now, some of your audience has probably heard of GHK before. It gets a little confusing because the name is used interchangeably. You can get different forms of GHK. You have Pal-GHK, you have GHK by itself, you have GHK-Cu. Each of them actually work a little bit differently. So, they're not one-to-one interchangeable. Just to clear that up because that's a question that comes up with a lot of people. Now, getting back to absorption, there are multiple peptides that obviously are great for regenerative effects. GHK-Cu is really in that sweet spot. It's one of the few that is readily absorbed topically and has some really solid regenerative abilities behind it. When you look them up, it's actually pretty wild. The list of the mechanisms it activates is so long. It's like the old ShamWow informercials. It does everything except wash the dishes for you.

Ben:  Is a lot of that research–and I asked this because I know you can get it in injectable form, too. And one of my friends, Dr. Matt Cook, actually recommended a lot for injuries and healing. When you're talking about the laundry list of effects, are most of the effects injected? Are most of the effects topical or just vary?

Nick:  So, it varies. Peptides, like honestly, the vast majority of, we'll say, biologically active compounds, the effect profile varies based on the route of administration. So, for a lot of common pharmaceuticals, you have a slightly different effect profile if it were utilized via IV versus an oral tablet or some other route of administration such as a nasal spray. An example would be, that your audience I'm sure is familiar with, is BPC-157. There are actually forms of BPC-157 that are stable, gastrically stable passing through the stomach. The general trade name for it is BPC stable. It's a slight modification of the standard molecule. You can take that orally, but you will not see as significant of a systemic killing effect because its effects, since it's passing through the GI tract, are focused very heavily on the GI tract.

If you have somebody struggling with IBS or some other bowel or intestinal challenge, it can be a phenomenal tool. But if you're somebody like, hey, I busted my knee or I have some other soft tissue injury that I'm looking to heal, it's going to help, but it's going to be limited compared to a sub-Q injection. You see nasal sprays all the time with peptides. Same thing, they're not useless by any means, but they're going to have a very different, say, effect profile compared to other routes. Another one, TB-500, great for healing, but I don't like needles so I'll do a nasal spray. It's not going to be absorbed as well. You are going to absorb some of it.

Ben:  Probably get some pretty gnarly nasal passage hairs and some nice little hair growth and filtration mechanisms right up there in the nasal cavities.

Nick:  Yeah. So, to come back to your point though, GHK-Cu, I am a huge fan of using it sub-Q. It is a freaking amazing peptide. So, for example, a good friend of Jay and mine, he does his crazy runs in Nevada mountains, these hikes where it covers three peaks. For most people, it takes three days to do all three peaks. He does them in one day. So, obviously, joints get a little upset about that and you might get some swelling in the knees. We've had some great conversations. He'll do an injection, 2 or 3 milligrams of GHK-Cu sub-Q, immediately before he starts the run and maybe 1 milligram after the run if he pushes it really hard, and never has any swelling, any stiffness or joint pain at all. He's just good to go.

Jay:  Yeah. He's like a robot, keeps going.

Ben:  Wow. Okay. But what I want to do is really focus on the hair growth thing because I've heard of GHK-copper peptide before, and we've obviously explored it's a helpful peptide. I guess honestly, before I actually ask you about some of the more specific mechanisms regarding hair growth and some other tips you guys have, the other one that's part of this Auxano like one-two formula, and I'll ask you about how you actually use this stuff briefly or in a little bit, but this carbon 60 is the other component of it. And I guess carbon 60, I may have misspoken earlier, you wouldn't qualify that as a peptide, would you?

Nick:  No, it's not.

Ben:  Okay. So, explain to me what that is and how that [00:20:48] _____ the GHK-copper peptide.

Nick:  C60 is a buckminsterfullerene. It's a big fancy name for 60 carbon molecules all connected together. They can generally come in three different shapes. They can be connected as a cylinder [00:21:04] _____ this shape of a soccer ball. For our purposes, we only use the soccer ball version of the C60. There are other applications including industrial applications for the sheets and the rods, the cylinders. There is some data suggesting that they may not be so good for you biologically. But the great thing is if you know how to source this material, from a technology perspective, it's very easy for the people who actually produce C60 to produce exactly what they want, whether that's a sheet, a rod, or a sphere, a soccer ball.

Ben:  Okay.

Nick:  In this case, from a biological standpoint–I'm pretty sure you've spoken about C60 on your shows before. So, the C60 that people would ingest is also the same thing, the buckminsterfullerene in the shape of a soccer ball, and the magic in it, a couple of different routes. The overview of it is that it generally acts as a sponge for reactive oxygen species as a super antioxidant. It also turns out it likes to hang out around your mitochondria. Once again, your audience is really well-educated on antiaging, and optimization, and all that. The mitochondria is really the core of all of that. If your mitochondria had the greater performance, that's the big thing of aging. Not the only thing, but that's probably one of the major factors of aging that everyone has to deal with as we travel through life, right? It's doing two things. It's improving the efficiency of the mitochondria, and at the same time, in the general region that it's applied, it's acting like a giant sponge soaking up all those reactive oxygen species that can just wreak havoc cellularly.

Ben:  So, even if you apply it topically, it does that because in the past–and I interviewed Ian Mitchell, super-smart guy. We had a fantastic discussion. One of the things that he talked about was C60. And we didn't talk about this too much, but he did mention how he'd been putting it on his hair in his lab and he was noticing some profound effects, and he was going to look into it more. And this was like a year and a half or two ago that we had that discussion. We never did a follow-up podcast on what he had found with his C60, but he did send me–he sent me some for my dogs, and he sent me some for me to use in smoothies and stuff, but it was an oil. I think he had it in an olive oil carrier. And I think now, he even does like ozonated C60 capsules, if I'm not mistaken. But his entire delivery mechanism was oral. And what you're saying is you can take this and, say, apply it topically for that same mitochondrial or antioxidant effect topically and it works that way, too?

Jay:  Hold on, Nick. So, Ben, from that podcast with Ian, one of our listeners–there's a mutual listener of both of us. His name is Geoff Hao [phonetic], how you pronounce it. Great guys up in northwest [00:24:04] _____. He reached out to me and he said, “Look–” and this is two months later. He said, “I listened to Ben's podcast with Ian Mitchell and I started applying. I have been getting Tailor Made GHK-Cu pharmaceutical from Tailor Made and I started using ions, carbon 60.” And he sent us a before and after picture, and we were like, what?

Ben:  He was injecting copper peptide. He was ingesting carbon 60. He wasn't [00:24:29] _____ topical formula, but that was where you guys got the clue that these two were working to do something because he sent you photos?

Jay:  Yes, but he was actually applying the carbon 60 topically.

Ben:  Okay. So, he was taking the stuff that was meant for oral consumption, just like smeared it on his head and stuff, okay.

Jay:  Exactly. And the before and after was so profound that Nick and I were like, “This can't be. There's no way.” So, then Nick started looking into it and we found the research that there was hair regrowth. Obviously, Ian already said that there was. So, that's what led us to formulate version one of our product. And to what you said, which is important, the first carrier that we used was MCT oil, correct, Nick?

Nick:  Yes, MCT oil.

Jay:  And that was too thick, somewhat the constitution a little bit too greasy. And now, obviously, version two is in a grape seed oil extract, which is much thinner, much more compressed, feels much better in the hair and scalp, scalp more than hair. And so, anyway, I just wanted to put that note into you because that's literally what led it to us formulating our product.

Ben:  Wow, interesting. Okay. So, we've got GHK-copper peptide. I'm going to sound like Marvin the Martian, the old Looney Tunes cartoon, my alluvium Q46 explosive space modulator. The GHK-Cu and carbon 60, so those are the two that we're targeting. And I believe you guys, I think I saw some in your website or in your marketing materials or somewhere, you're calling these bioregulators. Is that right?

Nick:  So, we do mention bioregulators as a secondary reference in our website. Bioregulators, just a quick aside so people understand the term, basically, Russians were the people who originally developed peptide technology as we pretty much know today because they got cut off from Western medicine as a result of the Cold War. As they were developing it though, okay, they started to develop peptide technology. The guy who headed it, his last name is Khavinson. He actually has his own institute now. People who have really dived into the peptide world at all have probably come across the name before. He is the father of peptides as we know them today. So, as he did his work and he developed these, we need a name that made sense to people instead of throwing out technical or scientific names. So, just from their perspective, their biological molecules that regulate any number of critical functions. So, they just condensed that down to bioregulators as a general term for a broad class of peptides.

Ben:  And so, these two would be considered to be bioregulatory peptides?

Nick:  Correct.

Ben:  Okay.

Hey, I want to interrupt today's show. I don't know why I'm using my announcer's voice because I'm excited. I like to shop for things like chocolate, and raw nut butters, and fringed, weird, gluten-free cereals you can't find anywhere else, and ethical meat, and sustainable seafood, and clean wine. There's one website where you can go find all this out. It's not Amazon. It's not your local grocery store website. These folks let you easily shop by 70 plus different dietary varieties like keto, paleo, gluten-free, vegan, non-GMO, Fair Trade Certified, BPA-free. Any of your grocery shopping orders that are over 49 bucks get shipped free. So, there's really totally–doesn't matter if you drive down and go to the grocery store and put your mask on, and wander around, and drive back home, or just do it straight from your computer and find all the good stuff, and it's delivered with carbon-neutral shipping from zero waste warehouses.

I'm talking about Thrive Market. It is an online healthy grocery store that it's a membership-based website. So, you save a ton of money, kind of like Costco. It's risk-free. You get the first 30 days to see if the membership's right for you. If it's not, just cancel within 30 days, get a full refund. Twelve-month membership comes down to less than five bucks a month. And you get all this if you go to thrivemarket.com/ben. And better yet, they're going to give you up to 24 bucks and free groceries when you go to thrivemarket.com/ben.

I sleep at 55 degrees, you guys, 55 degrees, sleep like a baby. I'm 55 degrees. No meat sweats after I ate a giant two-pound tomahawk steak. No issues with sleeping in the spring or the summer. I like to sleep cold, 55 degrees circulating around by the whole time I sleep. But I could do 65. It's cold outside. I could jack the temperature on that thing up. Even the gravity blankets you can circulate water through. It's called ChiliSleep, ChiliSleep Technology. They make the chiliPAD. They make the Ooler. It fits over the top of your mattress. It uses water to control the temperature of your bed, lower your body's core temperature, trigger sleep, boom. It's chilisleep.com/bengreenfield, C-H-I-L-Isleep.com/bengreenfield. You can go check them out.

Before we get into the mechanism of action, I actually want to back up a little bit, because I mentioned my podcast with Dr. Cameron Chesnut, and we actually got into testosterone. We got into DHT. And we talked a little bit about some of the reasons why testosterone and DHT were linked to hair loss, some of this so-called concept of androgenic alopecia, I think he called it. But, Jay, I know you're such a wealth of knowledge on testosterone, on DHT in particular. I was wondering if you could lend your own flavor to that discussion and explain to the people who are listening why it is they should be aware of the link there.

And also, this might be a little bit of a jam-packed question, either you or Nick could jump into, what that has to do with one of the more commonly used medications out there for stopping men's hair loss, finasteride or Propecia. So, can you weave all of that together for us?

Jay:  Yeah, absolutely. So, I'll start and then Nick can jump in for sure, or clean up. So, obviously, almost the hair loss industry in and of itself is a massive multibillion-dollar market. The data that's out there is really just for the west. We don't even know how big it is potentially in India or in mainland China, in parts of the world that we just don't have data on. But obviously for centuries longer, people have attempted to figure out and solve the riddle of hair loss. And obviously, big pharma, the Bioworld, place that Nick has been running in circles for a long time, uses drugs to supposedly what they believe to inhibit dihydrotestosterone, which is DHT.

So, almost all the existing therapies on the market that have been developed are in some way, or shape, or form attempting, and I always say the word attempting, to inhibit DHT production. Now, Ben, in the real world, and I'm sure you know people, I know Nick and I know people, doing that is a really risky endeavor because obviously you're suppressing/inhibiting a natural biological system. As I always say, God is a lot smarter than big pharma. At the end of the day, whenever you're going to inhibit a biological system, there's going to be some form of a cascade, a second or third-order effect that ultimately is not going to be healthy for people.

So, if you talk to men, specifically, who have been using again these drugs that you already named, finasteride, Propecia, even script minoxidil, they have a casual understanding of what's going on. But the majority of them, and I shouldn't say the majority of them, but at least a good percentage of them also suffer from side effects, erectile dysfunction, mood, and well-being imbalances. And again, this is very simply understood. And again, Nick can get into the biological mechanisms of action if we want to. I mean, I don't think we need to. But basically, you're suppressing dopamine. You're doing all this stuff through the inhibition of dihydrotestosterone, which is obviously a necessary hormone to be going through men's biological systems. And if you're blocking it, you're going to create these issues.

So, everybody, for the most part, who's honest, is going to say that if they've used a DHT inhibiting drug, again Propecia, finasteride, dutasteride, that they've experienced some form of sexual dysfunction, a lack of sexual desire or libido. And then of course a lot of guys get brain fatigue and fog and all this stuff. So, it's a really, really complex subject, but all you have to do is go online and search PFS, which is called post-finasteride syndrome, and read about all these men who have suffered–I mean, Ben, personally, I've known two men who have killed themselves. Now, is the cause of death attributed to PFS? No, but to the families and the people that knew them, they would tell you that it was due to that effect. And again, this is a very known hormonal imbalance that happens for guys that take these. So, when you look at the hair loss industry, the re-growth industry, and you really start looking at the science, you'll start seeing that DHT inhibition is actually not a direct root cause or root causal issue of hair loss itself. And obviously, as you know, we just wrote like an 8400-word article that examines all of the science ever.

Ben:  Yeah. It's actually going to be featured on my website. I don't know if it will have been published by the time this podcast comes out. I think it may have, but I'll link to it at BenGreenfieldFitness.com/hairgrowth because, yeah, you take a deep dive into this.

Jay:  The truth is is that the hair loss industry is for the most part founded on inexact science because DHT inhibition ultimately really doesn't do that much. Sure, when you inhibit DHT, you block the receptors. And so, ultimately you make a person addicted to that medication so that that block, that inhibition of the dihydrotestosterone has to stay permanent. And as you go, Ben, from talking to people that have even probably come on this podcast, and of course Nick and I know very, very well, if you stop taking these, which obviously is going to cause again a systemic imbalance hormonally to you, you're going to have to be weaned off, blah, blah, blah, your hair falls out. It actually exacerbates your hair loss, because now, you don't have that block and your body is now attenuated essentially to having that inhibition going on. And you have now cold turkey, which you should do anyway because of the hormonal effects, and now your hair loss is exacerbated, falls out.

So, again, it creates literally a physiological and a psychological addiction to users because they know that if they stop taking it, now all their hair is going to fall out. I'll let Nick come in here in a second, but our article summarizes how the whole industry itself, from big pharma to all the people, the docs, everybody in this industry who is promoting DHT inhibition medications cannot solve the actual problem of hair loss, which really comes down to a lack of blood flow to the scalp, which ultimately causes issues to the follicles enabling them to die.

Ben:  Well, lack of blood flow to the scalp. And arguably, some element of inflammation, even iron oxidation to a certain extent, all these things that can cause these so-called peroxides, which essentially take a hydrogen peroxide to your hair, which is one of the reasons that of course gray hair sometimes goes along with hair thinning, et cetera. So, it's both the loss of blood flow, and then also in many cases, excess inflammation or excess peroxidation, right?

Jay:  Yeah, exactly. Microinflammations in the scalp are really–and you just hit on it. That's a whole another podcast. But yeah, I mean, think of the products that we use, men and women, over the counter for hair shampooing and conditioning and all the stuff in there. They're just pounding the reactive oxygen species on top of the scalp creating additional inflammation. So, ultimately, the article at the end, when you publish it, which we're very grateful for, when it's summarized, it will give people a pretty strong strategy on how to actually overcome hair loss issues, your predisposition to it, again as you said already, through androgenic alopecia or not. So, we know now that through these various peptide products and other modalities that we list in the article, you can pretty much overcome even genetic predisposition to hair loss, assuming you live a clean lifestyle, which as you just said, Ben, reducing inflammation is the number one thing that you have to do.

Ben:  Yeah. Well, I'm shocked at my own results. I go outside barefoot. I eat a super-duper low omega-6, low polyunsaturated vegetable oil diet. I do a ton of red light therapy. I mean, there are things I'm doing that I'm sure are accelerating the process of hair growth along that I'm getting from the stuff like the C60 and the GHK-copper peptide. I'm convinced a big part of that is the low level of inflammation, the photonic light delivery to the mitochondria. And then, also, after my podcast with Dr. Cameron Chesnut, I bought one of those–it's like a spongy hairbrush with the–I forget what you call it but feels like a massage on my scalp when I brush my hair. And so, I have it by my computer and I'm just probably like four or five times a day brushing my hair. Literally, while I'm talking to you guys, I'll stop and brush my hair a few times. So, I'm doing a little bit of massage throughout every single day by just leaving hairbrush lying around the house.

Jay:  So, Ben, that is the key to get these products. So, obviously, all the other things that you're doing are great. Those are going to additionally stimulate angiogenesis in the scalp. You're going to increase red blood cell formation, collagen formation, collagen synthesis. And of course, you're suppressing obviously the inflammation through the effect of the carbon 60. But if you do not massage the product into the scalp and you just spray the two-phase version obviously of serum A and serum B, serum A being the GHK, serum B being the carbon 60, into your hair like a lot of women who have long hairdo, you're not going to get the same results as someone who is actually massaging as you're doing with one of those combs with microneedling applicator than somebody who's again spraying it into their hair.

And so, some of our customers have not gotten the results that you're getting. And by the way, I've gotten the same results as you because I'm just like you, living a supremely low inflammation lifestyle. I mean, my hair completely regrew back in two months, as Nick knows. And people can go to the website and can see the before and after. We didn't say this, Ben, but back in 2019, dude, I was nearly bald. I have androgenic alopecia. I went to our friends in Newport Beach at Vantis and I had the micropigmentation done to my scalp. So, the hair that I've regrown is on top of already having the Vantis procedure, which is, by the way, amazing. I mean, it's mind-blowing. So, if you're living a low inflammation lifestyle and you use our product, and you obviously do the things that we also write about in the article, which you just mentioned, red light therapy, massaging the scalp, very, very low inflammation, you will get results. I mean, I don't care if you have very low follicles, guys with the chrome dome look. As long as you still have follicles on your scalp, definitely, this product can regrow your hair.

Ben:  You mentioned the Vantis Institute. I think I learned about them after I podcasted with Cameron because Cameron's up here in Spokane. His clinic's like 20 minutes from my house. So, I'll continue to go in there about every three months or so to do the PRP on the face and the scalp with him just to push this along even more. But that Vantis company, I actually featured in my weekly roundup because they do follicle replication. They insert these organic plant-based pigment deposits through the dermal layer of the scalp, almost like a follicular transfer in the way you could I guess take your pubes and put them on your head. They're using plant-based pigments and mimicking your own hair follicles, and it's almost like a hair follicle transplant. But yeah, I'm glad you mentioned them because they did reach out, and I had some people go to them, and already, I'm seeing some success stories come up from that. So, they're called the V-A-N-T-I-S. They're in, what, Newport Beach?

Jay:  Yup, they're in Newport Beach, yeah. And their technology is called VFR, which is the Vantis Follicular Replacement. But, dude, it's amazing. I mean, I cannot sing the praises of any company more for people that are struggling because it's not invasive. You get the entire procedure done in one day, depending on your rate of loss. And honestly, at that point, I just wanted to have the George Clooney shaved head but still have hair up there, kind of like a five o'clock shadow on your chrome dome, right? So, that's what they did for me because, I mean, dude, my hair was mostly gone. I mean, I started losing my hair at 45. So, I'm 50 now. I've almost turned 49, so we did the procedure in December of 2019.

And then, Nick sent me this stuff in June of last year when you rocked it for us, and I started using it. There is a story behind this. I'll make it really fast. I started using it for a month and my hair regrew, and then we couldn't keep it on the shelves once you started promoting our products. And we launched version two in November of last year over Black Friday, and dude, we sold close to like–I mean, obviously we sold everything out. Ben, you don't know this, every single bottle that we shipped out broke.

Ben:  Oh, no kidding.

Jay:  And the reason that they broke was because the peptide expanded in the neck of the bottle in our distributor? Yeah, dude, in Kansas City in December, if you remember when we had that brutal cold spell. So, all of our products we were so excited. We launched version two of Auxano. Nick had been brewing this up. We knew it was like five, six acts of what our first product was, and then, boom, that happened. So, it was a disaster for us in January and February, and we had to get our bottles from China. We had to wait for them to come in because we had to get all new bottles. So, it was crazy. It was a very, very got see crazy start.

Ben:  Trust me, I know this sinking feeling. Like when we first launched the Kion Clean Energy Bar, I was so proud of it. And so, just stoked because I've been testing and eating this thing myself for like the past year and I was so excited, and we made this huge order, and then we found out within six weeks we had mold in some of the boxes. I remember one call from Angelo, my CEO. We literally lost like 60k just having to throw out product. Eventually, we fixed it all. But yeah, I've had that happen and it's a sinking feeling.

Jay:  It costs us 80k. It costs me and Nick 80k. Me and Nick were like–we're staring into the abyss, man, in February. I'll let him share, but hey, man, props to Nick. I love that guy. Honestly, Ben, I can't be aligned with a better person. I always say this. I know for a fact that God brought all three of us here together on this podcast today. I know God brought you and Nick into my life, and so I'm very grateful. But yeah, man. I mean, recouped, Nick did not steady or stop. He steadied under fire. And by the way, just so you know, for everybody listening, Nick had a full-time auditor, a big pharma job. He works with this high-end consultancy in big pharma. So, he's doing this stuff at night, bro. Literally, he has a lab in his house. He's been brewing all the stuff up.

We're moving now to contract manufacturing and everything because we're so big now. We've grown so much. But yeah, dude, it was an amazing story. And here we are now, here on your podcast today. At the end of the day, the best part is that this product works. This is not snake oil. As you know, there's a lot of products in the hair loss industry that guys are preyed upon and they get poured to almost no results.

Ben:  Like what?

Jay:  Well, if you live a low inflammation lifestyle and you use this product effectively and correctly, massaging it into your scalp, you will see regrowth.

Ben:  What's an example of one of those snake oil products that you're referring to? Just a curiosity.

Jay:  I mean, I would just say, without naming anybody specifically, there's so many products that people promote online. There's so many multilevel things that I've seen. I mean, just since Nick and I do this, we get emails from people all the time through Instagram and stuff, through the Entera account, saying, “Oh, what about this? How do you compare to this?” And I'm like, “I don't know anything about that. Do you have any studies? Is there any data?” Because at the end of the day, there's tons of data on GHK-Cu. Well, I shouldn't say tons in carbon 60, but there is data on regrowth. And I mean, you already had Ian Mitchell, who's a brilliant guy, on your podcast talking about it. So, in truth, Nick and I were the first guys to throw this together. It's not like we just threw it together. I mean, Nick is advanced biochemist. He studied and did all these things and made sure that the protocol and the formulation was correct.

But to actually discover this, I can tell you this, too, Ben, when Nick and I were at the Peptides Conference in August in 2019, the last I think one before COVID happened and stuff like that, Nick stood up and started talking to Seeds, Dr. William Seeds, a friend of all of us, and said, “Hey, man, what about carbon 60?” And Seeds looked at him like, what are you talking about? And we both looked at each other and we're like, “What? What do you mean? You don't know what carbon 60 is?” So, that goes back two years ago, but I'm certain that this product–I'm so confident because I've never seen anything do what it did to my hair. Again, if you take a low inflammation lifestyle, you live exactly how Ben Greenfield recommends, you will get results with this. And by the way, let's not forget the women. Women get just a good a result if not better than men do with this product. Again, it's about the application. It's not spraying it into your long hair and rubbing it in your hair like a leave-in conditioner. It's about putting it into your scalp.

Ben:  So, that actually leads into where I wanted to go next, which was how to actually do this because it's one thing to know we've got these two compounds that seem to be fantastic, both anecdotally. And then, as Nick alluded to, like in terms of a lot of the studies that are out there on these for reversing hair loss, or at least increasing hair growth, particularly due to activation, so the mitochondrial components of hair growth. But we talked about scalp massage, and I told you how I'm doing this brush. I think it's called like a Conair, but they're literally like those $10 nylon plumpy brushes you can get on Amazon. And I've been brushing a lot when I use the shower, which I do a lot more because my hair is getting bigger and I put the conditioner in. I massage the conditioner for like a good two or three minutes in the shower. But when I put the–I forget which one goes on first. Is the C60 goes on first or the GHK-copper peptide?

Nick:  Realistically, you're not going to ruin the effect by doing it either way.

Ben:  When I get the Auxano formula from you guys, there's two bottles and it says, “Put this one on first and put this one on second.” Why is that?

Nick:  The reason it says that is once you put an oil product onto your skin, essentially, the pathways through the pores are saturated by the oil. Water and oil don't mix. So, a water-based solution is not going to be very effectively absorbed if you've already put oil on. It doesn't mean it won't be absorbed. It will be to a point, but to get the best effect, that's why we strongly recommend in this direction, specifically state to utilize serum A, which is the water-based GHK solution first.

Ben:  Okay. Alright, that makes sense. So, I put that on first, which I've been doing, and then I follow that up with the C60. But then, do I have to massage right away, or can you wait? Like, if I'm brushing later on or whatever, can I wait a certain period of time?

Nick:  You could wait. But realistically, the sooner you do it, the more effective it's going to be because it hasn't just been sitting around it. It's like anything else. You can put lotion on your arms and you could just slather it on and rub them later when you're done brushing your hair, drying off. But obviously, it's going to work better if you just go ahead and massage it and get well-absorbed right then and there.

Ben:  Okay, got it. What do you guys use for your massage, just your fingers?

Jay:  So, Ben, I just did a video you guys can probably link to yesterday, because we talked to our contract manufacturing people yesterday morning and they were like, “You guys need to do a better job of educating the consumer on the aspect that this is a scalp health product.” And again, so you're all over it. You're exactly right. So, when I get out of the shower, I instantly put the GHK-Cu. My hair is still wet. I mean, obviously, I don't have as much hair as you and Nick. You guys are locked mania dudes. But the hair that I have regrown I'm very proud of. I spray the GHK-Cu in, and then I massage it for 20 to 25 seconds. Not a scalp massage like I would get it at barber or hair salon, or anything like that, but I'm moving it in. And then, I put the carbon 60 right after that. And truthfully, I like the carbon 60 as the finishing product now. I don't even use mousse or any product now because the grapeseed oil extract is so–the texture is so nice. It moves your hair around. It almost leaves it almost like a pomade or like a light mousse. And in fact, Chris Gethard, a friend of the show, he loves our product. That's his favorite part of the product. He's like, “Dude, that's my styling tool is serum B.”

Ben:  Okay. So, yeah. That is one thing I've noticed is I don't have to use much product. Usually, I'll use like a little bit of hair pomade if I'm getting you something. But yeah, you got to use a lot less. It seems to give a little bit of like a firmness to the hair. And I went pretty minimalist on my hairbrush, but I guess they do sell because I've seen on Amazon before like hairbrushes that will vibrate. I think Sharper Image even has one that comes with LED light therapy. Have you guys ever looked at any of these more? I mean, what you should do is you should develop one for Auxano and give people a really good hairbrush or massage scalp that comes with their product because that would be really beneficial for folks. If you guys develop one, let me know.

Nick:  Yeah. So, it's definitely a drawing board where–oh, we have so many balls you can juggle once. But that's something we do plan on releasing, hopefully, not too far into the future. As you said, there are actually some really neat combinations out there now that either have the soft bristles like you use, which are great for stimulating the scalp or also have the red-light LED built-in so you're getting both at once.

Jay:  So, Ben, let me throw something in there when you're doing it because you're a red light freak like me. Shout out to our boys at Joovv. After you put it in the GHK-Cu, that's when you want to hit your scalp with the red light because that is going to increase angiogenesis. That's when you want to do like three minutes into your scalp with the red light if you can use their portable or whatever, even if you have a red light hair cap or whatever, because there's a million of them out there now. And then, put the carbon 60 because–again, Nick, correct me if I'm wrong. The carbon 60 then after will act as that gigantic sponge to just suck the GHK down into obviously the scalp, and hit the follicular roots half an inch to, whatever, three-fourths of an inch into the dermis. Am I wrong, Nick? That's correct, right?

Nick:  Yeah, that's a general description. Another reason you would do that is there actually studies showing that red light magnifies the effects of GHK-Cu. It's actually a fascinating work. It gets very complex, but the quick and dirty of it is that red light supercharges the vast majority effects of GHK-Cu.

Ben:  Yeah. Well, look, so my Joovv light obviously is not pointed right at my head when I'm using it because I use one of those full-body panels. Have you guys seen these devices that are developed for Alzheimer's, dementia, focus, meditation? They're like infrared light therapy devices. The one that I use are called Vielight, and it's got a nasal probe, too, and specifically designed for neural health. But I wear that in the morning when I'm sipping my cup of coffee, and usually like 10 minutes' prior is when I'll have put on the C60 and the GHK-copper peptide, like the one-two Auxano combo. So, I'm actually getting it directed to the scalp by those infrared lights.

And then, what I do is most days, I go out for a walk while I'm taking on my phone calls and stuff. So, I've got one set of the Auxano up in my bathroom cupboard, but then the other set is in the drawer. That's right by my front door when you walk out the front door. So, I do a few sprays in and just rub it in for about 30 seconds, and then head out into the sunlight where of course you're getting exposure to the infrared light spectrum as well. So, if I'm going for a sunlight walk, I have it in my hair then, too. And at the same time, I'll put it on my face. And I actually did want to run this by you because I don't recall, but isn't there some evidence that either C60 or GHK-copper peptide or both can assist with a little bit of the potential damage from UVA and UVB radiation?

Nick:  Yes, they both do, actually.

Ben:  Yeah. That's why I talk because I don't use a lot of sunscreen. Up until I got my hands on that stuff, I honestly would just put a little coconut oil on my face, like literally duck in the pantry before I head out on my sunshine walks and do a little coconut oil. But I use this stuff now instead and it seems to work almost similar to like a sunscreen in terms of the UVA and UVB part.

Nick:  So, what FDA start to get being real careful not to make sunscreen claims, but GHK-Cu and C60 both have data demonstrating through various mechanisms, either prevent the damage due to UV, not entirely, but reduce the impact of UV, or directly mitigate the effects at the cellular level, UV damage, which is what the sunburn is.

Ben:  Okay, that makes sense. Now, when it comes to C60 and GHK-copper peptide, do you guys think these are the big two? Or Nick, particularly, because I know this is how you spend much your life is researching all of this stuff. Are there some other peptides and bioregulators you guys think are coming down the pipeline that could serve to be just as interesting?

Nick:  Definitely. I'll go ahead and mention one that people have probably heard of. I think you've actually talked about it on one of your shows before. The common name for it is PTD. The whole cellular process of hair growth in the follicle is actually very complex. PTD is essentially targeting one specific area, essentially forcing the follicle to grow hair, not characterizing that as good or bad, it's just the mechanism through which it works. [00:54:59] _____ step back, and I won't go too far because we go in-depth in the article you're going to be publishing. And that is that fundamentally, DHT is not the cause of hair loss. It's a contributory factor. It is not the foundational issue.

The reason we use the formulation we do is that when you break it down from a first-principles perspective and say, “Okay, maybe it is DHT, maybe it's not. Let's just start all the way to the bottom and build back up and see where it takes us.” You find the DHT is a contributor. It is not the primary cause. The primary cause is ultimately lack of blood flow. So, both GHK and C60 can help with the situation, but when combined appropriately, the net effect is greater than the sum of the two individual effects.

Ben:  That other one that you mentioned, what do you say it's called, PTD?

Nick:  Yes.

Ben:  And is that going to be an injectable or a topical you think?

Nick:  That is already available as a topical through various other sources, companies. Here's the challenge though. We do have other formulations that we're working to release over the next 6 to 12 months. That will include other peptides. There are multiple other peptides you can use. The key to it though is that you have to use the proper combinations that are dealing with the underlying foundational issue of blood flow, not just forcing hair growth because PTD, there's some great data out there on it, and it's legitimate, it works. However, it hasn't been around long enough to see good long-term data sets on it.

But given that you're not really addressing the underlying blood flow issue, it's most likely that PTD is really functioning in a similar manner to minoxidil in the sense that while you're using it, you'll probably have some noticeable results. When you stop using it, the underlying fault, the underlying cause of your initial hair loss is still there. So, now that you took that driving factor away to essentially force the hair to grow, well, it's not there anymore, but the problem still is. Minoxidil, people can start losing their hair within a week. Would it be that quick with PTD? We don't know. It isn't brand new, but it also hasn't been around long enough for there to be a whole lot of real world use data on it yet.

Ben:  Got it. One thing I was thinking about because I was looking into this prior to our show was almost the more philosophical aspect of this, or I guess the societal aspect of it, the idea that hair has always been this primary indication of confidence for a lot of men. It's obviously huge, like a billion-dollar industry, hair restoration is. Cameron and I talked about this when I interviewed him. And there was one survey I found that showed that hair was like the primary link between men's idea of where they're at in life in their youth and their attractiveness, and that men actually showed in these studies to be more relaxed and more confident when they had more hair.

And it's also interesting because beards, same thing, there was another study where they found that men with facial hair were like–they were considered to be more aggressive by other men and other women. But both men and women also found the men who had the facial hair to be more masculine. They perceived now the higher social status, which actually surprised me. I didn't realize that men who are clean-shaven could be assumed at a lower societal status than men with beards. But it's interesting. It's almost like this double whammy of facial hair and a full set of hair allows a man's masculine appeal and confidence to go through the roof. And so, I don't know how narcissistic I'm slowly going to become as my own hair grows out and my beard gets longer and longer. But it's interesting, like how much there is that goes on psychologically here.

Nick:  Yeah. I'm a goatee. I had facial hair, and honestly, you feel different when you have more hair. I keep my hair nothing like yours, but for a long time, I cut my hair very short, relatively cropped. There's a difference. I'm not a psychologist. I'm not going to try to prattle on about the mechanisms and the reasons, but yeah, for whatever the reason is, I'm sure there's some great psychologists out there that can give a whole lecture on it. It's legit, whether you like it or not, unfortunately.

Ben:  Yeah. And in terms of conjunctive treatments, you mentioned Vantis and this plant-based follicular retransplant type of protocol, Jay. And then, I did the PRP treatment with Cameron up here, which was the microneedling with the PRP. We talked about infrared light as being another thing, massage, low inflammation lifestyle. Anything else you guys keeping your back pocket that you do along with the use of these two Auxano products that you think flies under the radar or something you fall asleep down to work really well?

Jay:  So, the number one thing that people will be able to do in addition to all the things that you've already covered, and obviously all of this stuff is the article that you're going to be publishing, which from your team is going to be two parts, which is amazing. Again, we're very grateful for that. It's a very in-depth article.

Ben:  Yeah. It's really good.

Jay:  That's in the article, and I'll just mention it, Ben, what I want to get into is that people definitely should look into drinking deuterium-depleted water, right? I mean, you are already a water and wellness guy, and I know you already know the profound benefits of enhancing mitochondrial health. But there's no question that when you start looking into the research of what deuterium-depleted water does, I mean, it will enhance mitochondrial neogenesis in the scalp. It's obviously all through the body, but for people that aren't familiar with deuterium-depleted water, there's a lot of stuff that you can find online. My copywriter and I wrote an article about a month ago on my side. I know, Ben, you've covered it. But that would be like one other thing that we didn't cover. You already mentioned derma rolling. It's kind of weird with derma rolling though because it's an invasive procedure. And so, you have to be careful when you're puncturing. Even if it's just a tiny level of the top part of the scalp, it's considered clinical. But derma rolling would be huge.

The last thing that I really wanted to get into is that what Nick and I are developing, which I think is going to be here a lot sooner than we thought it would be is going to be what we wanted to classify as a leave-in conditioner, but it's actually going to be a scalp treatment. So, what this will be, Ben, is people will take a shower at night, I hope they take a shower at night, wash their hair, wash everything out. And then, as they're drying, whatever their nighttime ritual is before they go to bed, female or male, they will apply this serum into their scalp. And again, as you said, massage it into the scalp. Now, you're going to want your hair wet so that you're going to get better and more even distribution into the scalp, and then obviously you'll massage it in and stuff like that. But this product will be, Nick and I have already thought about what we're going to call it, it's going to be Auxano Evening. So, Auxano that you're taking now will be Auxano Day, and then this product will be Auxano Evening. So, that's coming. I would say, Nick, what do you think? We'll have that before year end, correct?

Nick:  That's our goal is probably early fourth quarter.

Ben:  Okay, cool.

Jay:  So, Ben, this product will dramatically improve regrowth because people will be asleep. They're not going to be able to do anything to inflame themselves unless they don't sleep at all, right? The penetration and the absorption in the scalp, the advocacy will be much greater because they'll be sleeping. And also, it will be when it's applied to the scalp, it will actually absorb better.

Ben:  Nice. I dig that. Actually, I'd seen some of those studies on deuterium-depleted water and the coat, like the hair coat in rodent models actually improving in terms of quality. And of course, arguably, I think that a lot of people who are avoiding starches, eating organic produce, getting really good spring water, et cetera, probably maintaining relatively low levels of deuterium without having to buy super-duper expensive fancy bottled deuterium-depleted water. But it's interesting how that seems to play into the equation as well. That's funny because when I interviewed Ian Mitchell, who we're talking about earlier, those are two of the things we talked about a lot, were C60 and deuterium-depleted water.

So, a lot of this stuff seems to stack, infrared light and really good water, and blood flow, and scalp massage, and then topical peptides like this. I think the equation seems to be confusing to a lot of people, but when you really step back and look at it, it's pretty simple, especially when you're combining that with low intake of vegetable oils, low inflammation, good sleep. And the avoidance, as you explained, Jay, of things that might deleteriously influence DHT or hormonal balance that's leading to long-term androgenic alopecia. So, it's one of those things that I'm super happy to be able to have delved into and studied over the past few months. I'm just learning so much from guys like you along the way. It's super fun.

And then, the Auxano stuff, for those of you listening in, I'll link to everything we talk about in the shownotes if you go to BenGreenfieldFitness.com/hairgrowth. But the Auxano, you guys are giving all of my listeners a discount. I know if you go to ________, it's the company that runs Auxano, ______, there's a code called BEN15, that gets you a 15% discount on that. And I'll put that in the shownotes as well. And then, yeah, when you guys come out with the laser light vibrating massage brush, maybe like double up and have like a dildo handle or something on it and we can just kill a lot of birds with one stone. Just ship that up and we'll develop the world's ultimate biohacks brush. And I think it will sell like hotcakes.

Jay:  You will be our first call.

Nick:  If you don't mind me taking one slight step back to put it. We talked about a lot of things, put a quick bow around everything for everybody. So, we got all lost in the woods. Fundamentally, what it boils down to, DHT is a contributing factor. It's not the root cause of hair loss. At the end of the day, if you dig through all the data on the research, I'm going to say some rock-solid research going back 10, 15, 20 years, and longer that show that hair loss is fundamentally an inflammation and blood flow issue. You would ask Jay the question of, what other sorts of products are out there that might be more in the snake oil category? That's actually easy without even having to name names. Realistically, anything that's targeting DHT, for example, there's a lot of over-the-counter herbal compounds that claim to target DHT. Certain herbs and herbal extracts do tend to inhibit it and can be topically available. However, now that people understand that's not the root cause, you're going to run into the same issue minoxidil. Even if you slather enough on your head where you got a positive effect, the second you stop it, you're going to lose that positive effect and probably rebound in a negative way.

Jay:  Well said, Nick. Anyone who's used minoxidil, especially at a prescription grade, has experienced that. I mean, I've talked to hundreds of guys. The people that have reached out to Nick and I since we launched Auxano are like, “Well, what if I do this and this combined with the Auxano, we always tell them, “Well, would you get potentially more regrowth if you were using a prescription grade of minoxidil with Entera at night, with Auxano at night? Possibly, but again, why would you even want to use minoxidil at this point now when you understand the mechanism of hair loss, knowing that minoxidil, when you stop using it, has a rebound effect of losing your hair. The DHT inhibition attached to the follicles, and then boom, the follicles fall dormant and die, and you'll lose them.

Ben:  Well, I would say that if folks were to combine listening to this podcast with probably the one I did with Cameron Chesnut, and maybe that one that I did with Ian Mitchell, or Ian, however you pronounce his name. I always forget. Anyways though, I'll link to all those in the shownotes at BenGreenfieldFitness.com/hairgrowth because I think if you were to just go through all those, you'd pretty much cut through the crap and know everything you need to know about how to approach this from an arguably more natural standpoint. And then, I'll link to your guys' Auxano product as well because both me and my wife have been loving it.

And granted, I know people will ask this because in my company Kion, we have like a skin serum. And I still use that skin serum as well. It's just like a bunch of different essential oils. But yeah, I'm doing the Auxano in the morning, and then my red-light therapy and my Vielight, and then the Auxano from going out for a walk in the sunshine to sometimes I'm in it twice a day. I do the Kion serum before I go to bed at night. Once you guys finish that conditioner, I'll start putting that in before I go to bed at night. And for me, if it takes me two to five minutes to go out of my way to just slap this stuff onto a quick hairbrush and walk away, that's not excess time spent narcissistically trying to improve my figure or my face. It's quick standing out, it works, and man, I dig this stuff. So, thanks for introducing it to me guys, and I'll blame you when I start to look like–what's his name? Is it Thor, the superhero with the long hair and the beard?

Nick:  Yeah.

Ben:  I might have to pick up a few heavier weights, too.

Jay:  Let me just throw this out to everybody. And again, man, we're so grateful. You've helped our company so much and we've gotten so many of your customers who have sent us amazing testimonials about–because we didn't even talk about the serum and cream. I mean, you obviously did, but the products that are coming from us, our brow, which is going to be a brow and eyelash serum, this is right around the corner. Auxano Lip, which will be like a moisturizing and plumping product for the lips, which will blow out the doors for women, and then Auxano Beard for beards. And so, that'll be a separate product. And then, Auxano Ageless, which we'll be sending you and your wife that product very, very soon, which–I don't want to make claims, but I'll just make claims on Ben Greenfield's podcast. It will be as strong as Botox without the neurotoxicity of Botox.

Ben:  That's pretty cool. I'll be waiting so that I can stop getting all the brow treatments that I currently get and quit–

Jay:  We'll be sending you that very soon, actually.

Ben:  Yeah, because right now, I just shave my brows and paint new ones on. So, that'll be great when you send me that. Alright, guys. Well, we're running out of time, but folks, BenGreenfieldFitness.com/hairgrowth is where you can check this stuff out. Again, if you wind up on the Auxano website, code BEN15, we'll help you out over there. And Jay, Nick, thanks for spending all the time in the batman labs and helping us all become hairier fellows.

Nick:  Hey, Ben, thank you for the opportunity. It's been amazing.

Ben:  Awesome, awesome, guys. Alright. Well, I'm Ben Greenfield along with my friend, Jay Campbell, and my new friend, Nick Andrews, signing out from BenGreenfieldFitness.com. Have an amazing week, everybody.

Well, thanks for listening to today's show. You can grab all the shownotes, the resources, pretty much everything that I mentioned over at BenGreenfieldFitness.com, along with plenty of other goodies from me, including the highly helpful “Ben Recommends” page, which is a list of pretty much everything that I've ever recommended for hormone, sleep, digestion, fat loss, performance, and plenty more. Please, also, know that all the links, all the promo codes, that I mentioned during this and every episode, helped to make this podcast happen and to generate income that enables me to keep bringing you this content every single week. When you listen in, be sure to use the links in the shownotes, use the promo codes that I generate, because that helps to float this thing and keep it coming to you each and every week.



As I was recently reading in a fashion magazine, hair has always been the primary indication of confidence for most men. When you consider that two-thirds of men see hair thinning by the age of thirty-five, and men’s hair restoration is a $1.5 billion industry, you began to understand how much confidence is attributed to a man’s hair. But why? In a Canadian survey conducted by researcher Rosemary Ricciardelli, men identified hair as being the primary link between their youth and attractiveness. Ricciardelli observed how men with a full head of hair—even the ones who weren’t otherwise particularly attractive—go out of their way to bring attention to their hair when meeting someone new. These full-haired men tended to be more relaxed and confident in demeanor when dealing with other individuals because they feel like they represent the standard for the ideal man.

Ricciardelli helped prove this theory by asking the participants to physically describe their ideal male figure. All of the participants described men who were clean-cut with a full head of hair. We’re unconsciously groomed (pun totally intended) and conditioned (ha!) to think that a healthy man has a full head of hair. But how does this psychologically affect the way men actually feel in their hair? Perhaps a full head of hair reassures them of their healthy biological standing. Maybe the loss of hair reminds men of their mortal vulnerability. Even men with gray hair prefer the color change over balding.

Beards also matter, as facial hair is also a key part of men’s self-identification. In one study, men with facial hair were considered more aggressive than clean-shaven men. Both men and women found men with facial hair to be more masculine, with a higher social status, than men who were clean-shaven. More interestingly, men who are bald tend to accentuate their facial hair as compensation for balding. With the double whammy of baldness and facial hair, a man’s masculine appeal could be through the roof.

So, to continue on the topic of hair and beard health in men (and the former in women too) that I visited on my recent podcast with Dr. Cameron Chesnut, I decided to continue to explore the topic of hair optimization.

My first guest, Jay Campbell, who first joined me on the podcast “Is Metformin Really Dangerous, Little-Known Peptides For Muscle Gain & Fat Loss, Testosterone Replacement Therapy & Much More!” is a 4x international best selling author, men’s physique champion, co-founder of Entera, and founder of the Jay Campbell Brand and Podcast. He is a Champion Men’s Physique Competitor and the best-selling author of the Testosterone Optimization Therapy Bible and of The Definitive Testosterone Replacement Therapy Manual: How to Optimize Your Testosterone for Lifelong Health and Happiness.

Jay also wrote a very popular article on my website entitled Testosterone Decoded, Shattering Testosterone Myths (& Everything You Need To Know About Testosterone Optimization Therapy). As a global influencer on health optimization and raising human consciousness, Jay is no-nonsense, authentic, and fearless in his servant mission of leading humanity towards the Golden Age. Since returning from 12 days in The Sacred Valley of Peru, he's recently experienced a profound awareness of the importance of #RaisingTheVibration of humanity to reach planetary consciousness aka unconditional love.

Jay also introduced me to the company “Entera,” which he co-founded along with Nick Andrews (see below). Entera makes a copper peptide GHK-Cu and Carbon 60 (C60) (first explored in my epic podcast with Ian Mitchell) hair growth, beauty, and anti-aging formula that seems to be taking the world by storm of late. It is called “Auxano” and I've been using it successfully to amplify my own hair growth, and also smooth out wrinkles and firm up the skin on my face. I've been quite happy with the results (you can get Entera's Auxano for yourself with 10% discount code BEN).

Also on this podcast is Jay's partner in crime Nick Andrews. As one of the world's top peptide product formulators, Nick draws from his 20+ years of expertise in the pharma world to develop industry-leading peptide cosmeceuticals.

During this discussion, you'll discover:

-The history of how the company got started…07:10

  • Auxano Grow in June 2020
  • Cosmeceuticals: products that have both cosmetic and therapeutic effects
  • Ben started using and promoting Auxano Grow
  • Jay and Nick have known each other since 2016
  • Nick was an MMA fighter and started experiencing thinning of the skin on his face (bleeding through his pores)
  • Dermatologists would just prescribe cortical steroids, which would thin your skin further over time
  • Nick is a biochemical engineer by education, worked in biotech and pharma for more than 20 years
  • He started making his own face creams to thicken his skin
  • Nick sent Jay a sample for Monica, Jay's wife, to use
  • Launched company in November 2019, but didn't do much marketing
  • Ben started using it and then promoting it and now the company is growing

-How GHK-Cu works…13:35

-How Carbon 60 aids in hair growth…20:40

-What roles testosterone and DHT play in hair loss…29:20

  • Almost all existing therapies in the market are in some way, shape, or form, attempting to inhibit DHT production
  • Products like Finasteride can cause significant side effects, particularly in men: ED, mood and well-being imbalance, sexual dysfunction, reduced drive, brain fog, and more
    • Blocking DHT creates these issues
  • PFS: Post-finasteride syndrome
  • Article: DHT inhibition is not a root cause of hair loss
    • The hair loss industry is founded on inexact science
    • DHT inhibition ultimately makes people addicted to the medication
  • If you stop taking Finasteride or Minoxidil, hair loss is exacerbated
  • Reducing inflammation is the #1 thing you have to do to improve hair re-growth and even reverse genetic predisposition to hair loss
  • Conair hairbrush
  • Massage the product into the scalp to get the desired results
  • Living a low inflammation lifestyle + red light therapy + massage Auxanoproducts into scalp = your hair WILL regrow
  • Vantis Institute
  • Women get just as good results, if not better than men

-The best way to use Auxano products for optimal results…46:20

-Other peptides or bio-regulators that might be useful…54:15

  • PTDtargets one specific area, forcing the follicle to grow hair; PTD is available topically
  • Fundamentally, DHT is not the cause of hair loss, it's a contributory factor; the primary cause is a lack of blood flow
  • New formulations that include other peptides are going to be released in the coming months
  • The key is using the proper combination that will deal with the underlying issue of blood flow, not just forcing hair growth
  • PTD is legitimate and works but it has not been around long enough to see long term data sense on it
  • Snake oil product: Minoxidil has a rebound effect where hair loss is exacerbated if you stop using
  • People start losing their hair one week after they stop using Minoxidil

-The psychological link between having hair and perceived masculinity…57:15

-Additional products Jay and Nick recommend…59:40

  • Drink deuterium depleted water (DDW)to enhance mitochondrial health and neogenesis in the scalp
  • Derma rollingis an invasive procedure so you have to be careful (use code GREENFIELD to save 20%)
  • Products coming soon:
    • Auxano Evening—an overnight scalp treatment (coming out early 4th quarter of the year)
    • Auxano Lip—moisturizing and plumping product for the lips
    • Brow Serum
    • Auxano Beard
    • Auxano Ageless—will be as strong as Botox without the neurotoxicity
  • Discount on Auxanoproducts using the discount code BEN15
  • Ben also uses Kion Serumwith the Auxano Grow

-And much more…

Resources from this episode:

– Jay Campbell And Nick Andrews:

– Podcasts And Articles:

– Gear And Supplements:

– Other Resources:

Upcoming events:

Episode sponsors:

-Ra Optics: Purchase a pair of Ra Optics Day and Night Lenses to optimize sleep quality, energy, levels, and health in the modern, electrically-lit world. Receive 10% off your order when you order through my link.

The Boundless Cookbook: Optimize your physical and mental performance with nutritious and delicious Greenfield family recipes. This is your roadmap to a culinary journey that includes ancient food and wild game preparation tactics, bio-hacked smoothies, meat rubs, cocktails, desserts, and beyond—without any restrictive diet, limited ingredients, or tasteless “health foods!”

–Kion Refer A Friend: The Kion Refer A Friend program allows you to receive a gift—in this case $20 Kion bucks—for every $20 you send to a friend, family member, co-worker, or anyone really because there’s no limit to the number of friends you can refer.

Thrive Market: Organic brands you love, for less. Your favorite organic food and products. Fast and free shipping to your doorstep. Receive a gift card worth up to $20 when you begin a new membership.

ChiliSleep: ChiliSleep makes both the chiliPAD and OOLER, innovative options that fit over the top of your mattress and use water to control the temperature of your bed and help lower your core body temperature to trigger deep, relaxing sleep.


Ask Ben a Podcast Question

One thought on “[Transcript] – The 2 Most Potent Hair Growth & Hair Loss Reversal Molecules Known To Humankind: C60 & GHK-Cu – A Big Hair Podcast With Auxano’s Jay Campbell & Nick Andrews.

  1. Jack Miller says:

    trying to sign up for transcripts. Got to this page. ??

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *