[Transcript] – What Really Makes You Ill? Why Everything You Thought You Knew About Disease Is Wrong.

Affiliate Disclosure


From podcast: https://bengreenfieldfitness.com/podcast/lifestyle-podcasts/what-really-makes-you-ill/

[00:00:00] Introduction

[00:01:16] Podcast Sponsors

[00:03:34] Topic and Guest Introduction

[00:07:03] Why An Accountant And Engineer Decided To Write A Book About Health And Disease

[00:14:15] Their Non-Medical Backgrounds As An Asset To Their Research

[00:21:10] Why AIDS Is Rampant In Africa Without Drugs And Antibiotics That Cause It

[00:32:39] Podcast Sponsors

[00:35:30] What We Can Learn From The 1918 Spanish Flu Pandemic Today

[00:46:00] The Dangers Of Chlorine

[00:49:30] Giant Rocks In Space Related To Shifts In World Health

[00:57:05] What Really Makes You Ill (If It's Not A Virus)

[01:01:00] David And Dawn's Diets Since Writing Their Book

[01:05:30] How To Naturally Battle Health Issues In Our Internal And External Environments

[01:11:45] David's Top Health Tips

[01:16:26] Closing the Podcast

[01:17:51] End of Podcast

Ben:  On this episode of the Ben Greenfield Fitness Podcast:

David:  How long we could be, because the more we dug into it, the more we realized that none of that was actually based in science at all. But, many people still live with the threat of AIDS and believe that there's a virus responsible for it. And, yet, there is no scientific evidence to prove that virus exists.

Ben:  Why would we not expect that the planet would want to get rid of human beings naturally that are abusing it?

David:   When you're looking at billions of people doing this, then, you can quite see we're on a very slippery slope.

Ben:  Health, performance, nutrition, longevity, ancestral living, biohacking, and much more. My name is Ben Greenfield. Welcome to the show.

Well, I have a controversial episode for you today. I read a big book and you'll learn about it soon. But, it was one of those books that probably got both authors canceled from all social media, I would imagine. And, if they're on social media, as you hear the interview, they sound like folks who might not be super-duper Instagrammers. But, anyways, you're going to like this episode, “What Really Makes You Sick.”

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I just finished, everyone, a massive book. It's a really big book. It was kind of a taste of my own medicine, because I know I recently wrote a big book. And, this book is 760-something pages long. My wife kept asking me at night when I was laying in bed as she was falling asleep what I was reading. And, it seems like my answer was the same for two solid weeks as I made my way through this thing.

It's a fascinating book. It's called, “What Really Makes You Ill?” “What Really Makes You Ill? Why Everything You Thought You Knew About Disease is Wrong.” Now, I actually mentioned this book when I wrote a post called, “Why I'm Not Afraid of the Coronavirus (and a New, Controversial View of Viruses in General).” And, I actually included a few snippets from this book in some of my thoughts on the viruses and the virome. And, if you listen to my podcast interview with Dr. Zach Bush, you may have heard his unique take on viruses and the virome on our planet in general. And, this book contains some similar information and goes beyond.

It's a pretty controversial book, really, because it's based on Voltaire's quote that, “Doctors are men who prescribe medicines of which they know little to cure diseases of which they know less in human beings of whom they know nothing.” Now, that might be a little bit of an outdated quote, because I do think physicians know quite a bit about the human body. However, there are, obviously, some issues with modern healthcare.

And, my guests on today's show, the authors of this book, “What Really Makes You Ill?” have outlined a lot of that in this title. Their names are David Parker and Dawn Lester. And, interestingly, their backgrounds are in the field of accountancy and electrical engineering, respectively. So, that's going to be really interesting to hear their take on why they wrote this book as an engineer and an accountant.

But, anyways, it's fascinating. It goes over everything from planet pollution to non-infectious diseases to infectious diseases to pharmaceuticals to the vaccinations to the germ theory to EMF. And, it's a really well-written title. And, I will link to it in the shownotes, and also, to everything that Dawn, David, and I discuss, if you go to BenGreenfieldFitness.com/Ill. That's BenGreenfieldFitness.com/I-L-L. So, that all being said, Dawn, David, welcome to the show.

David:  Thank you. And, thank you for having us, Ben. We've been looking forward to this for a little while now. So, yeah, let's hope we can have a really good conversation and bring out some of the points that we have raised in our book. Obviously, as you say, it's nearly 800 pages. So, we're not going to cover all of it. That's for sure.

Ben:  We're not. You, guys, don't have 12 hours. Where do you, guys, live, by the way? I didn't even realize that, well, you had an accent, obviously. And so, I assume, based on your publishing location in the book, that you're in California. But, it sounds like you are elsewhere.

David:  Yes, we're English and we're in the UK. Just north of London is where we live.

Ben:  Got you. And, are you, guys, partners or just business colleagues?

David:  Business colleagues. We've known one another for about 20 years, so we do know one another very well.

Dawn:  We've been working on various projects for a while.

Ben:  Interesting. Well, that's actually what I want to ask you about. What inspired you two, an accountant and a freaking electrical engineer, to write a massive book about health and disease?

David:   That's a fair question. And, we do get asked about that sometimes. Well, I'll give you a potted version. Obviously, we started this book, the book took about 10 years of research. So, it took a long time to write. And, because, as you've seen, there's nearly 40 pages of references in it, so it's all got the correct citations of where the information came from. So, we knew that we'd have to be very accurate because it is controversial title, which is that way for a reason.

Just to give you an idea why we started it, Ben, is going back many years, particularly, my personal experiences with friends and family who were diagnosed with various cancers and all took the normal doctor's treatment and the hospital treatment. And, unfortunately, they all died. And, there are a range of age groups and male and female, of course. So, there was no sort of pattern to it.

I started to become unhappy with the sort of answers that I was getting from the medical establishment, not least of which was because they were saying, at that time, probably, still so now, that they were getting better at treating cancer and were having something like a 50% success rate. Well, I knew straight away from my own personal experience it was a 100% failure rate. So, I knew there was some mismatch between what was being given to the public and what was actually happening. Particularly, as I had another relative, an elderly lady, who was also diagnosed with cancer. And, she flatly refused to have anything to do with a medical establishment and just wanted to be left alone and to see how things went. And, over the period of a year or two, because the doctor was still monitoring her, there came a time when they said, “Well, we're pleased to announce that your cancer has completely disappeared.” And, she continued to live quite a number of years.

Ben:  Well, you mean a spontaneous remission? Or, was she doing work in the alternative medical field outside of standard medical treatments for cancer?

David:  No. She was doing absolutely nothing at all, just carried on living the normal life that she'd always lived. And, of course, this type of thing is what we explain in the book, and what causes cancer and how it can be prevented, and what you can do should you be diagnosed with it. And, of course, as you know from reading the book, none of that has anything to do with taking chemotherapy, which I firmly believe killed all my family members who all underwent that treatment. Chemotherapy, as you know, is extremely toxic. We learned the way [00:09:58] _____ works.

Ben:  Yeah. That's why it works. Theoretically, why it can cut, slash, and burn to a certain extent a tumor. And, of course, I wouldn't necessarily endorse if you did have cancer just sitting back and doing nothing. I think you could be a lot more proactive than that. But, I am aware of some of these situations of spontaneous remission, even though most of the cases that I've seen, and I actually just recently read an entire book, a new book, about spontaneous remissions. I'll link to it in the shownotes. Much of that kind of phenomena is linked to changes in emotional outlook on life, positive emotions, kind of like Bruce Lipton's “Biology of Belief” type of things.

So, even if someone is not, say, whatever, doing a Gerson protocol, or a hyperthermic treatment, or some other alternative treatment for cancer, in some cases, a spontaneous remission is just due to changes in emotions.

David:  Yes, you're absolutely right. And, that does play a very big part. As you say, positive thinking and believing the best, this is even recognized scientifically with what the medical establishment would call the placebo effect. I'm sure, probably, many of you listeners are familiar with that, where people are given what amounts to no more than a sugar pill which they're not aware of, of course, but believe that the pill strength will make them feel better for whatever it is they've been giving it for. And, sure enough, they improve as it fill down to their belief system.

And, there's also the nocebo effect where adverse comments and adverse beliefs can cause very detrimental effects even to the point of someone dying. And, there's well-documented cases of that as well. Doctors even recognize it as dying of the diagnosis. So, there's many records about that, and that's the nocebo effect.

Dawn:  People who have taken a placebo in various clinical trials have believed they were taking a pharmaceutical or even a chemotherapy type of treatment and have had the side effects that they expected because they thought they were taking a chemotherapy drop. So, they had the side effects of either losing their hair or extreme tiredness to be found later at the end of the trial, that they were, in fact, on a placebo, not an actual drug. So, the power of belief is really extremely strong. So, yes, there are lots of actions that people can take. But, certainly, how they feel and their emotions and their ideas will affect their body and their health.

Ben:  And then, in the process of writing this book, David, and kind of digging into the research, where did you meet Dawn? And, Dawn, where did you come into the picture?

David:  Well, again, we're going back sort of 20 years when we were doing various other research sort of independently, and then, came together. We've written other couple of books. But, the very first book we wrote was about the nature of reality. We didn't write it under our own names at that time. We wrote it under a pen name of NoR, for various reasons which I won't go into now. So, a very different thing altogether.

But, studying the nature of reality and the state of this reality and consciousness and the power of consciousness and religions and how that all plays a part in it was something that had fascinated me sort of all of my life. And then, Dawn and I came together and realized we both had very similar interests. And so, we wrote a little book, as we say, called, “The Nature of Reality,” which is still around, still on Amazon.

So, that was how we came together and found that we had a lot of interest in common. As I said earlier, because of my experiences, personally, with the health system, realizing there was something wrong with that and something we needed to look at. But, whilst we were writing that very first book about the nature of reality, one of the chapters was about health and how belief affected it. And, we realized we needed to know a little bit more about viruses, because, at that time, we believed the same as everyone else, that the medical establishment knew exactly what it was doing, it was all based on sound science, and that germs of one sort or another caused the majority of illness. And, how wrong we could be. Because, the more we dug into it, the more we realized that none of that was actually based in science at all.

And, one of the very first diseases so-called that we looked at, purely by chance, was the HIV-AIDS controversy. By the time, we didn't realize there was a controversy. We thought we knew all about it, because we're old enough to have lived through the '80s. And so, when that first came on the scene and scared the life out of everyone, and basically, like now, with this present pandemic, so-called, we were told it was going to kill tens of millions around the world, whether you were homosexual or heterosexual. It didn't matter. And, that the world would never be the same again.

Now, fortunately, none of that came to pass. And, as we looked into it, we could see the reasons why. We looked into the science of it and realized that, again, there was no science. There was no actual proof for a virus causing AIDS, and there was much more plausible reasons, which many people know about now, which was to do with a lifestyle in the San Francisco area, nothing to do with homosexuality, just to do with the heavy use of certain drugs, not least of which was poppers, as they were known.

Ben:  What's a popper, for people who might not know what that is?

David:  Amyl nitrite, basically. And, they sort of normally used to come in little glass vials, which people use or something would break and inhale the amyl nitrite. And, it gave a high and a relaxed feeling. But, it's quite toxic to the body. And, heavy use of that, accompanied with heavy use of antibiotics, was what was actually causing the problems.

Ben:  So, you're not saying that an acquired immunodeficiency syndrome doesn't exist. You're saying that it was caused by the use of things like poppers and other, what was the other thing you just mentioned, the antibiotics? And, that's what was causing immunosuppression, and that it wasn't necessarily a virus that was causing immunosuppression?

David:  Yeah. Well, it definitely wasn't a virus. I'm only giving a thumbnail sketch of it because we spent a lot of time investigating this. We talked to other doctors and other researchers over a year or two, looked into the evidence. And, some doctors would only speak to us privately. They wouldn't go on the record. This was something we have come across quite a lot because, obviously, they feared the loss of their job, as some have already discovered the establishment, the medical establishment, doesn't take kindly to any doctors speaking out and refuting what the paradigm is.

But, we were able to find out the evidence to show that that particular one was certainly not caused by a virus at all. And, to this day, no one has actually proved there is a virus that is the cause of AIDS. I know they may say they have, but one of the things as we did with all the other diseases that we investigated, we looked for the original scientific papers, which there should always be, peer-reviewed papers, to show what discoveries have been made by the medical establishment.

So we looked for the basic things that you should be able to find. It's a peer-reviewed paper which shows that the virus has been isolated, that it's been fully categorized, and that there's been a placebo test done for that.

Ben:  Were those Koch's postulates that you're referring to?

David:  Well, yes, they come into it. But, they should also be able to have done tests which prove that that particular virus is the sole cause of the particular disease that's attributed to it. And, surprisingly, it was a great shock to us because that was the first disease we investigated. We found that those papers didn't exist. And, we've also found that, although, unfortunately, he died last year, Kary Mullis, who was the discoverer and inventor of the PCR test, which is still used today, and for which he won a Nobel Prize. He also looked for those papers, and he said they don't exist. They are nowhere to be found, which is astounding, isn't it? When we still live with… well, many people still live with the threat of AIDS and believe that there's a virus responsible for it. And yet, there is no scientific evidence to prove that virus exists.

And so, that's really what, then, kicked us off on writing the book that we did, because Dawn and I, we were genuinely shocked and we thought, “Well, if they can be so wrong about that particular virus, what else are they wrong about?” And, that's really what kicked off our investigation.

Now, to come back to your question, some people ask, well, how come an electrical engineer and an accountant, your backgrounds are not medical, how can you write such a book? And, that's a fair question. But, because both Dawn and I, with the training that we've had and the qualifications we have, have very necessarily a technical and analytical mind to do the jobs we did. So, what we were able to do is investigate without any biases and without any fear of sort of treading on people's toes, we just followed the evidence and just kept going. And, that's why it took 10 years because we dug deep. And, we could never take “no” for an answer. We kept looking. And, we also investigated how doctors are trained. We're soon realizing, this is by talking to doctors, that their training only takes them so far. They're not allowed to ask the sort of questions we could ask.

In their training, they would literally learn almost by a route. They would be told, “Well, this particular disease is caused by this virus or this bacteria. And, this is the treatment we would give for it.” They were never allowed to ask the questions, well, how do you know that that virus causes that disease or that bacteria causes that disease? How do you know? They were never allowed to ask that, of course. And, if they did, I assume, got short shrift because, like in all exams, you need to answer the questions that you're given in the way you've been trained to answer them. And, if you go outside of that, then, you don't pass your exam. It's as simple as that. And, any doctor will tell you that if they're honest.

Ben:  That's fair enough, and it makes sense that you, as an electrical engineer and an accountant, do approach this from a logical standpoint without quite as much bias as someone who might be immersed in the medical field may have. And, I certainly don't question your ability to be able to write a book. I was just kind of curious about why you would have gotten so interested in this, in the first place. And, it sounds like a lot of it kind of began with your own personal experience with family members with cancer, which is, honestly, why I think a lot of people start to look into things like this, as a loved one or themselves comes down with something and they start digging beyond what the medical system might provide at first glance or on a shallow level.

So, then, you wrote this book. And, I do have one question that I just wanted to ask you. It might be a little bit of a rabbit hole about AIDS. But, you mentioned the issue with poppers and antibiotics in San Francisco making people more susceptible to immune system deficiencies and this immunodeficiency syndrome. But, what about in Africa? I don't think people are running around doing poppers. I don't know what the antibiotic prevalence is, but there are things like chronic fever and chronic diarrhea and loss of body weight and all these issues that are attributed to AIDS that occur on an increasingly common basis in Africa. It's obviously an issue there. So, if it's not a virus that is causing that type of issue in Africa and it's not, say, poppers and antibiotics, why would HIV and AIDS be such an issue on that continent?

David:  Now, that's a fair question, and it is something we looked into in great depth. Again, some years ago, I lived in Africa. I lived in West Africa for a while, and I have friends there, and still have friends from Africa. And, again, it's a fairly complex story, so I'll try and be as brief as I can. One of the main reasons the way that AIDS was funded, shall we say, in Africa, the various little clinics that are dotted around in Africa got more funding, shall we say, if they had so many AIDS cases.

Now, the fact that people were not suffering from AIDS, they may be suffering from malaria or dysentery or various other illnesses that often afflict people in Africa, not least of which was malnutrition, which has many of the same symptoms as any almost any disease you can name, but they didn't get funding for those sort of things. So, they found that, if they built up and put people down as being suffering from AIDS, they got more funding from the WHO.

Ben:  It sounds a little bit like the use of a ventilator for coronavirus in hospitals in the US.

David:  Well, yes, it all comes down to funding and a rather corrupt system where you end up with skewed figures of how many people have actually got a particular disease. And, we're seeing, as you quite rightly say, some of that with this, or quite a bit of that with this so-called coronavirus, spread of coronavirus.

So, it can all be tied to funding. And, I also found, because of living in Africa and talking to people, they used to get the same sort of thing with malaria in the same way as people, say, in the states or the UK or western countries. If people get sort of the heavy cold, I would say, flu-like symptoms, they don't have any test done. They don't go to the doctors. They just, maybe, take some time off work and say, “I've got a touch of the flu,” but it could be something entirely different. But, in Africa, when someone gets those symptoms, they say, “I've got a touch of malaria.” And, I've experienced this many times when I was there and talking to my African friends, both there and in the UK.

And, I have asked them about it and said, “Well, how do you know you've actually got malaria? Do you actually go and have some tests?” And, they said, “Well, no, this is what you expect in these certain areas.” So, you can see how a false impression of any particular disease can be built up purely by what people think they might have and how they misconstrue the symptoms. So, it's quite a complex picture of what people think without any actual tests. And, also, in the case of AIDS, for funding that they wouldn't normally get unless they put it down as a particular case.

Dawn:  There is another point, as Dave was saying, about tests. One of the main factors in the number of cases of people that are now claimed to be living with HIV in Africa is down to the test which, again, very similar to the test for the coronavirus that's going on now. It doesn't actually test for the presence of a virus. It just detects the presence of certain antibodies. And, there are many conditions that can actually produce a positive test result. And, one of those conditions is pregnancy.

Therefore, by having a large number of tests or the majority of tests being conducted at antenatal clinics, they are producing a huge amount of false positives, because it's based on these proteins that are found in the body that occur quite often during pregnancy. So, it's nothing to do with HIV. It's to do with a particular test result. And, that's really skewing the figures because these statistics from antenatal clinics in African countries is, then, used as a basis for extrapolation to the rest of the population.

But, this is completely out of kilter from what actually is the case. But, of course, there is no virus that they're looking for. But, they are, again, looking for antibodies that aren't specific to any particular virus, and can be there for a number of reasons. But, as I say, the pregnancy is the one that's quite important to kind of recognize, because, as I say, that's where they're taking a lot of their statistics from.

Ben:  That's interesting. So, essentially, what you're saying is the presence of antibodies is currently being used to assume the presence of a virus that causes antibodies to get produced, when, in fact, the antibodies, in the case of something like AIDS, are actually produced due to the mere fact that a woman is pregnant, not that she has HIV.

David:  Correct.

Dawn:  Yes.

Ben:  Interesting. Now, the other thing I thought that was really interesting that you guys know when you were talking about HIV and AIDS in Africa was these enormous pesticide waste sites where all the excess pesticide stock gets dumped, and the fact that all of these different chemicals like DDT and endrin and heptachlor, all the things are banned in a lot of countries and all the organic phosphates. What you see around those areas is a lot of folks showing the signs and symptoms of what we call AIDS. And, that's being blamed on the virus, HIV, when, in fact, it might be, in this case, living conditions.

And, the reason I bring this up is it reminds me, I had a conversation with a guy I mentioned earlier, Dr. Zach Bush, about viruses. And, he pointed out the fact that where you do see coronavirus symptoms popping up in the greatest density are the areas with, either, poor air quality/air pollution, or hefty use of herbicides and pesticides, like glyphosate. And so, it is kind of interesting that there seems to be a pretty big environmental component here. And, the way he kind of explained it was, actually, I thought quite elegant. You abused the planet, you abused this mother planet, Mother Earth, that we walk upon, and the virome that covers this planet, with trillions of viruses and something as simple as a pound of feces, all of a sudden become something that can actually take advantage of the immune system in the body or cause a lot of symptomatic issues. But, in many cases, it is simply related to the way in which we not only treat our internal environment, which, of course, you, guys, get into in the book, but also, our external environment. Pesticides and waste sites and herbicides and pollution. And, essentially, pardon the expression, when we're raping the planet that we live on, the viromes that we're supposed to be living within a relatively kind of peaceful scenario on this planet, all of a sudden, become almost like this pathogen against our body.

David:  Well, they certainly get tagged as such. But, from our research, we have not found any scientific evidence to show that either the so-called viruses, and we'll explain a little more, if you wish, as to what we found these particles are that are called viruses. So, we've never found any scientific evidence to prove that any viral particle can be attributed to any particular disease. It's often blamed for it, but there's no scientific evidence to back that up, which is, probably, very surprising to most people.

Ben:  Well, in your book, you say that the functions attributed to viruses and the causation of disease are based on assumptions and extrapolations from laboratory experience or experiments that have not only failed to prove but are incapable of proving that viruses cause disease. Is that what you're getting at?

David:  That's correct, yes. And, again, in the same way that we looked for the peer-reviewed papers for the actual cause of HIV-AIDS, we looked for the peer-reviewed papers for all of these other so-called viral diseases. And, again, they're not there. And, we're not the only people who had looked for these, of course. But, they're not there. And, this is, in itself, if people think about it, to write a peer-reviewed paper for something is quite a big deal for anyone in the scientific community or the medical community, because, now, if you get your name on a peer-reviewed paper, it's quite an accolade. And, to be crude, it will mean more money and better jobs. And, to go down in medical history, it has been the discovery of a certain virus or a cause of a certain disease.

So, it's quite important things. So, these papers should be easily found and readily available, and they're not. So, that's the first sort of warning about we've found is, well, why aren't these papers available? Where are they? And, we have the same thing, of course, with the so-called coronavirus, where, again, there is no scientific evidence to prove that that virus exists. And, we know that, in the UK and New Zealand, for instance, just to state two cases, various people have written to the government, under the Freedom of Information Act, to ask for those papers. They actually asked the government for those papers. And, I've seen the documents that have come back from the government, saying, “We're not in possession of that information,” which is astounding, isn't it?

So, you think, well, how can you lock a country down, basically, and impose all these draconian measures, and you've openly admitted you're not in possession of the scientific information to prove that there is an actual virus causing the problem? So, you, then, have to ask what is going off. And, maybe, going into the politics of it is not something you want to go into on your show today, but it is something we have to examine.

Ben:  Well, my take on it is we could go into the politics of it, and what I find is it just turns into either an echo chamber or a relatively depressing conversation that, in the end, doesn't help people as much. It just creates more confusion. I certainly pay attention to a lot of the politics, a lot of the so-called conspiracy theories. I probably pay more attention to all of that and immerse myself in all of that more than most people realize. However, I don't address it quite frequently on my show because I don't necessarily want to, let's say, contribute to that noise quite as much as providing solutions and providing some clarity.

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I think that one thing that would provide clarity for people because it's a really good historical anecdote that I think parallels quite nicely to the time that we're living in right now is that of the 1918 Flu Epidemic. That was probably the first time I was reading your book. I think it's in the first 100 or 200 pages that my eyebrow went up, and I kind of thought, “This is actually really interesting. I never thought about the 1918 flu pandemic this way. Maybe, I should interview these people.” And, that's what kind of got me through the rest of the book, was actually reading that anecdote about the 1918 Flu Epidemic and what might have really caused a lot of the deaths that occurred during that time. So, that's something I would like to focus on because, I think, we can learn from history. So, what exactly happened during the 1918 flu pandemic?

David:  It is a very interesting subject. I'm glad you brought it up, as we found it immensely interesting. And, it's not a straightforward picture at all. So, it took quite a lot of delving and investigations to find out what actually had gone off. The first thing that we found great discrepancy is on the amount of people worldwide that was supposed to have died from this flu epidemic. And, we found that it could range, and these official figures, could range, depending on who you spoke to, anywhere from 10 million to 100 million, which is the first of a warning bell, is, well, that can't be very accurate recording if you've got discrepancies between 10 or 100 million. So, something's very much a skew there.

Again, it's quite a long and complex story, so I'll try and be as brief as I can. But, we looked into what was really going off of that. And, there's a number of things that need to be looked at, not least of which is the vaccination regimes for the military men and women at that time. And, a lot of the reports showed that rather than acting what we would normally think of a flu where people start to feel not well and it slowly gets worse over a period of days, and they become increasingly worse over a couple of weeks. What was happening with this is people, and this was young, healthy men, because we're talking about people in the army, so, they'll be the pick of the crop, if you like, the young, fit, and healthy people were succumbing to becoming ill, sometimes within hours or a day of having, or after, vaccinations. And, in some cases, they were so ill that they died. Now, again, this is not something that would be a normal sort of flu symptoms.

And, other things that were found, as we investigated, that many of these people who were dying from this so-called flu were actually hemorrhaging inside. They were having brain hemorrhages and, basically, hemorrhaging internally. So, again, this is not something that is expected from normal flu symptoms. So, there's quite a variety of things that were going off.

Now, there's also, at that same time, and there's been a book written about it called, “The Invisible Rainbow,” which, I think, a lot of people may be aware of by, again, an electrical engineer who looked at the history of the introduction of, not only electricity into the world but also, the introduction of telecommunications and radar. And, there is a pattern when you look at it, where some of the first deaths from the so-called flu epidemic and the most severe cases tended to center around army or military bases, where quite high-powered telecommunication masts and equipment had been installed. Because we're looking at around the first World War now.

Ben:  So, they found all these kind of high-powered radio wave towers near military establishments where it appeared that a lot of the influenza symptoms were concentrated?

David:  Yes, correct. And, as I say, the symptoms were very strange with this predominance of hemorrhaging, which is not what people would see today in what they would class as flu. They don't have those sorts of symptoms. And, quick illness, and often, quick death from these things.

So, those are several factors there. And, also, we found in India, supposedly, again, confusing figures, but we've seen figures of 10 million people died in India, again, repeatedly, from this flu virus. But, at first, they were blaming the soldiers from coming back from the war and bringing it with them. So, we have to remember that these are on troopships. So, when you look at the actual history of it, it can be seen that people were dying in great numbers in India before the troops had actually returned. So, they couldn't have been bringing the disease with them at that time.

So, I have to look deeper as to what was going off. There was climatic changes then which was causing one of the worst droughts and famines in India that they'd ever had. Droughts and famines are being common occurrences in India, but this was one of the worst ones due to, I think, it was El Niño, where it is moved and, of course, very severe droughts. So, a lot of these people, rather than dying from any virus, they had actually starved to death because of lack of food and lack of good nourishment. So, again, very confused figures and inaccurate reporting as to what people were dying of. So, quite a mixture of things as to what the actual so-called Spanish Flu or the 1918 Flu Epidemic was. Again, no research came up that showed that it could be proved that a virus was at the base of it. It had to be something else.

Ben:  And, you also discussed, of course, I think this book called “Pandora's Poison” where the extremely toxic nature of chlorine gas is described. And, that was used heavily during World War II, along with a host of other chlorine-based chemicals. There was a significant uptick in the use of nitroglycerin to manufacture gunpowder, which also results in a lot of the same symptoms as influenza. And then, when paired with a lot of the increased electrical activity that you were talking about, the high power radio waves, all these other issues, it sounds like this was a cluster of factors that all colluded to create flu-like symptoms in a wide variety of people. But, what you're saying is that it can't actually be proven scientifically or in a lab, or otherwise, that it was actually a virus that caused the 1918 Flu Pandemic.

David:  Yes, you're absolutely correct. There was a variety of factors, none of which were adjourned.

Dawn:  And, also, the fact of, going back to what we're saying about emotions and the sort of how people feel. That was the very first time the world had been at war. And so, it's extremely stressful even for the people who were non-combatants. So, even the civilians who were whether involved in the war effort and making weapons, or things like that, are absolutely traumatic. So, yes, that would have had a very severe effect on people's health as well.

So, it's not one factor. We're not saying there was only one factor, but as you say, it was a whole combination of factors that, together, produce these lots of illness and, obviously, death as well. So, it is a real combination. And, one of the other factors was the use of aspirin. And, at the time, it was being used at much higher doses than it would normally have been used at. And, that also contributed to some very severe effects. And, that certainly hastened the death of many people as well who were taking that prophylactically, as well as a treatment. So, again, lots of different factors all working together at a very, very traumatic time.

Ben:  It's kind of interesting because some of this stuff, also, if you want to get super woo and you consider the global state of consciousness, whenever something very concerning is happening on the planet that we live upon, people may actually see a suppression of emotions or become more susceptible to disease, again, based back to this biology of belief. So, you would imagine during something like a world war or during something like a worldwide economic depression due to, arguably, poor responses to a viral pandemic or due to, for example, just increased levels of obesity and chronic disease and inflammation overall, perhaps, from the flip side, dragging down people emotionally, we can see this global shift in consciousness.

I've seen some fantastic literature about group meditation kind of elevating the frequency and the vibration and the global consciousness of an entire room if an entire planet is brought down, or, conversely, entire planet is brought up emotionally. I would imagine there's probably an effect on that level, too. Although, I'm sure I just lost half my listeners.

David:  No, but you're absolutely correct. I think people underestimate the power of mind, the power of thought in these sorts of things. As Dawn has said, a world war of such catastrophic proportions, for anyone who's not lived through a war, it's unimaginable. And, the conditions that the troops were living in in the trenches, because it's much of trench warfare in the First World War, in itself must have scarred people mentally beyond belief, and, I'm sure, contributed to very early deaths. And, wherever you get those sorts of conditions, you're going to get very severe symptoms which people could attribute to someone coming down with the flu. But, it's, again, there's nothing to do with that. And, I'm glad you mentioned chlorine gas because, as you rightly say, we do talk about that quite a bit.

Ben:  Why do you, guys, talk so much about chlorine? And, one of the reason I ask is because I swam in it for 20 years as a triathlete. So, I literally lived half my life in chlorine for much of my earlier years of my life. So, explain to me what's going on with chlorine here.

David:  Well, chlorine's been around for a long time, at least, over 100 years. But, chlorine, in nature, is always found in compounds such as sodium chloride or better known as salt. And, in that form, it's stable. But, when chlorine gas is released from this or any other compound, its nature changes. And, chlorine gas is highly reactive and it combines very quickly with organic matter, any organic matter, really. And, of course, the human body is composed of organic matter. So, what chlorine gas does, once it's released from these compounds, it forms these others. It's very hazardous to humans. And, hence, why it was used for gas attacks in World War I. And, it forms new compounds, probably better known as organic chlorines.

Again, these have been shown to be very dangerous in biological processes. And, they'll affect within humans and animals', well, development generally, and, certainly, in reproduction and brain functions. It's quite dangerous stuff. But, as you said, it's a bit like Pandora's Box, because now it's been released, there's no controlling it. It's out there in the world and forms these organic chlorine compounds.

And, people coming into contact with it in various ways, and depending on their exposure, it can be quite detrimental to them. It is strange to us, knowing what we know about chlorine, why it's used in such as water treatment plants and, as you quite rightly say, within swimming pools ostensibly to kill germs, which brings us back to square one where germs, as we've shown and the research has shown, they're not the problem, but these toxic materials such as chlorine is.

In the UK, we get chlorine added to our drinking water at the treatment plants along with fluoride. And, they've now started adding ammonia, so there's a real toxic mix. So, we have to protect ourselves in the UK, for those that are in the know, having small water treatment plants of our own, reverse osmosis or distillers of one sort or another, so that, at least, we can have pure drinking water. Because, otherwise, you're slowly being poisoned.

Ben:  Fortunately, I did a whole interview a couple of years ago, how to reduce the risk from swimming in chlorinated pools and drinking chlorinated water. There's some stuff you can do like higher-dose vitamin C intake. My guest on that show, Dr. David Getoff also actually recommended vitamin D and alpha-lipoic acid. And then, of course, when available, and this is the way I've begun to treat most of my pools or my hot tub, swimming pool, cold pool, etc., just ozone and UV. But, I thought it was interesting how big of an issue worldwide chlorination is. It's widely used. This idea that it can combine with disinfection byproducts, which you get into in the book, to form chloroform, which is the highly toxic. Or, the fact that it can interact with organic matter, such as skin cells floating on the top of a pool that you might be swimming in, dictates that it is something to be concerned about. I just didn't realize it was as big of an issue until after reading your book.

Now, of course, there are also some things in your book that I haven't discussed before on the show. Take comets, for example, freaking comets. You talked about giant rocks in space in the book and you relate those to the plague. You relate a lot of environmental factors like radioactivity and volcanic eruptions from major shifts in world health, which I thought was fascinating. Can you just kind of give people a preview of what you think are the most important things to understand regarding something like comets or volcanic eruptions?

David:  Well, I think you're alluding to the part in the book where one of the diseases so-called that we investigated was better known as the Black Death or the Great Plague. Because, while we were investigating the book, the same as many people, we sort of kept throwing questions at ourselves of, well, if what we're finding out is true, that germs don't cause disease, what does? And so, we set ourselves the task of looking back in history and looking at present days.

And, of course, one of the big things, not only the 1918 flu, which we looked at, was, obviously, one biggie was the Black Death, which, certainly, when we were in school, we were taught was all to do with infected rat fleas infecting humans and killing them, as well as the rats that they were living on. So, we thought, “Okay, well, we'll investigate on this and see if this is true also.” And, again, cutting long story short, no, it isn't.

And, we relied a lot, quite rightly, on eyewitness accounts which are well-documented where people were talking about not only a very choking and sickly toxic atmosphere. And, this is over wide areas. We're talking about over Europe massive areas. But, also, the rivers and lakes, that fish in the large numbers were floating to the surface dead. Well, this can't be anything to do with rat fleas. You've got sort of the fish dying and floating into the surface. So, obviously, something was poisoning not only the atmosphere but the waterways as well. So, the more we looked into it, we soon started to discount rat fleas. And, I think a lot of archaeological evidence recently has sort of already given the lie to that.

Ben:  Well, you note in the book that excavations in London have turned up very little evidence of any kind of massive rat die-off that would have coincided with the timing of the plague.

David:  Correct. So, the eyewitness accounts talked at this time of these environmental factors, which you mentioned, that there were volcanic eruptions and earthquakes. And, strangely, a lot of eyewitness accounts mentioning a comet coming close into the earth's atmosphere, which seemed to also contribute to the debris and this poisonous toxic atmosphere.

So, those are eyewitness accounts. But then, we also found the work of a doctor, a professor, actually, Mike Baillie, at an Irish university, who'd written a book called “New Light on the Black Death.” And, he was, well, still is, I assume, a dendrochronologist. So, he studied for a living tree rings. Now, many trees, being very long-lived, he could go back to trees that were alive during that period and examine the tree rings and tell what the atmosphere was like at that time. And, sure enough, he found that the tree rings confirmed that the atmosphere had become extremely toxic and polluted with high levels of ammonia, for one. And, he also did a correlation between the tree rings and ice core samples and found exactly the same.

So, we had good scientific correlation that the large areas of the world atmosphere become extremely toxic and poisonous and would account, of course, for people dying very quickly. People could just drop dead in the street. Again, it wasn't a case of people become ill and slowly get worse and die. People were dying very quickly. So, again, a bit of a thumbnail sketch there.

Ben:  But, you know what, though. It's super related to what we already talked about regarding something like the environmental conditions in a place like Africa and the contribution to immunodeficiency syndrome, or the presence of the large amounts of pollution and chlorination in some areas where influenza was popping up during the 1918 flu epidemic. And then, you looked at this. And, we know, and that Professor Baillie explains, you've cited him in your books talking about hydrogen sulfide and carbon disulfide and some of these chemicals that have been detected in comets. And then, you combine that with things like, a lot of people don't realize this, but when there is an earthquake, you actually get quite a bit of chemical exposure, air pollution, and toxic compounds released from the earth's core out into the atmosphere.

And, again, if you relate this back to, I was talking about, not to kick this horse to death, but with Dr. Zach Bush, and now, on this podcast already with you guys, every time we see that the earth is getting beat up, either by us humans or by natural events, like a volcano or an earthquake or any other natural disaster, it appears to coincide with humans dying from some of the sickness that tends to spread as a result of that.

And so, I've never really thought of before I read your, guys, book about this on that type of level, thinking that, “This is just a natural cycle.” Bad things happen. Natural disasters happen, etc. And, people get sick and people die, and then, we develop some kind of herd immunity. We move on. We bounce back we grow stronger.

And, the other thing that we should not be doing is polluting the planet ourselves because Lord knows we have enough to deal with natural disasters. Why would we be dumping a bunch of extra stress on the planet and our own bodies with pesticides, herbicides, air pollution, heavy use of plastics, all the other ways in which we're destroying the planet we live on? Why would we not expect that the planet would want to get rid of human beings naturally that are abusing it?

David:  Well, yes. And, of course, as you know, we talk extensively in our book about all the different sources of pollution, which not only gets into the atmosphere and into our water, but also that we, or many people, unknowingly, put on or in their bodies. And, we sort of talk quite extensively about people being aware of this, whether it's in the sort of cosmetics that they may use or the washing facilities they may use, or even household cleaning products. You need to be very much aware of the contents of these things because every little is a little more poison that you're subjecting yourself to, and also, the world. When you're looking at billions of people doing this, then you can quite see we're on a very slippery slope.

Ben:  Yeah. And, surely, chronic diseases, especially, are not necessarily purely a result of environmental conditions outside the body. Although, of course, they are heavily related to internal environmental conditions. And, I do want to make sure that this entire podcast is not about just fear-mongering and scaring people about all the bad things that are happening around us. You actually have a chapter that kind of leads into some of the solutions that you present.

And, I do want to dig into the solutions. But, the chapter that leads into the solutions that you present is called “The Nature of Disease.” And, I believe you identify four different factors that you, guys, after having done all the research for this book, really think are the things that make us ill, or would define the nature of disease. So, can you explain what you, guys, believe the nature of disease is, based on the way you outline it in the book?

David:  Yes. Because our investigations could not find any proof that any germs were the cause of any disease, whereas, we knew, of course, that people did get ill, some very seriously, and die, so we obviously wanted to know the reasons for that. And, again, cutting long story short, it boiled down to the four factors that we talk about in the book. And, these are exposure to toxins, poor nutrition, exposure to EMFs, electromagnetic frequencies, and excessive and prolonged stress. And, we found that we could trace any disease, or, shall we say, illness that you care to mention, it would be attributed to one or more of those four factors. And, this is regardless of what names the many can establish and put on it, and including some of the illnesses which they call autoimmune diseases. And, this is, basically, a bit of a cop-out by them when they can't attribute a particular illness to a germ of some sort. So, they say that the body is attacking itself, basically, and call it an autoimmune disease, such as multiple sclerosis.

But, again, we investigated those and realized there were much more probable reasons as to why those illnesses occurred. And, particularly, with I'll mention, multiple sclerosis, which tends to be a damage to the myelin sheath of the nerves, and so, then, the system breaks down.

Ben:  Well, I can certainly get on board with those four facts. I'm going to repeat those because I think it actually is a very unique. I love the approach, very unique approach, to the four things that you, guys, say are the real true nature of disease or what really makes us ill. So, we got nutrition. I'm not necessarily an advocate of any particular diet, but, of course, I believe that both the food and the water that you put into your body have a profound impact on health. So, I'm completely on board with that. I would not argue with that.

The second one is toxic exposures, which we've already kind of talked about a little bit when it comes to exposure to a lot of environmental pollutants kind of shifting the body out of normal homeostasis. And, we know that we are surrounded by a host of toxins. I've done many, many podcasts on insecticides, herbicides, pesticides, metals, etc., etc. And so, I would agree with you on that.

The third one that you say is electromagnetic radiation. That's probably the one that I think people would most raise an eyebrow at. Yet, when you do read a book like “The Invisible Rainbow” or Joe Mercola's new book, “EMF*D,” etc., we do know that our bodies are not bulletproof to wireless radiation and electromagnetic fields. And, I personally see this in many of my clients, and also, in myself. A sensitivity to and poor feelings of energy and poor overall health when exposed to high levels of non-ionizing radiation. And so, I think that that's probably going to be an increasingly concerning issue as well.

And then, finally, you say stress, chronic stress. And, I've talked about this book called, “The Healing Code,” that, in fact, states that every disease is related to chronic stress. I kind of like your, guys, approach of four different factors, instead. The nutrition, toxic exposures, EM radiation exposures, and stress. But, it's a really kind of elegant way to lay all of this out.

And, I did have one question for you related to the nutrition piece before we get into some solutions. And, that is, have you have you, guys, in the course of writing this book, changed the way that you personally eat? Are either of you following a particular diet based on some of the things you learned while writing this book?

David:  Well, yes. Dawn and I were both vegetarians. I've been vegetarian for over 45 years. But, as we wrote the book and realized more and more how important nutrition was and what you put in your body, we became vegans. And so, we recommend a plant-based diet, a nutritious plant-based diet, and organic food wherever you can. And, we do explain why we recommend organic food. Again, this is to do with polluted soils with pesticides, insecticides, which you've mentioned. And also, because of the factory farming that we've experienced over the decades, many soils are what you would think would be called dead nutritionally. So, the plants that are grown in them only grow because of the fertilizers, which are sort of chemical fertilizers that are put on them. So, the plants aren't able to take up all the nutrients, natural nutrients, from the soils because the soils are dead. So, magnesium is one of them that gets lost in this process. Whereas, at least, if you're eating organic food, that, at least, there's some better controls on the soils, so the plants that are grown in them are able to take up a full range of nutrients which they, then, pass on to you when you eat them. So, it's a fairly simple concept, really.

So, we've definitely followed that and become much stricter with what we eat. And, the more raw food that you can eat, the better, because, obviously, I'm sure people know that, as soon as you start cooking things, you start to lose some of the nutritional value.

Ben:  No, it depends on what you're cooking, really. In some cases, you can increase the nutritional value.

David:  Yeah, but just as a general concept. But, a lot of vegetables you can eat raw and, certainly, fruit, of course. And, there's a lot of nutrients to be gained from fruit and nuts and seeds. So, there's lots of stuff that you don't need to cook. But, it's having that variety of natural foods, healthy foods, that gives the body or helps create a healthy body so that it can get rid of the toxic materials that have accumulated in the body. It can actually go through its normal cleaning detoxifying processes. But, it needs that nutrition to be able to do that, because during a normal life cycle of a body, it produces, I think, things called free radicals. And, this is quite normal. And, the body flushes them out in the normal process of living. But, it needs sort of antioxidants, which you get from the fruit and vegetables, to be able to do that. So, if you've got a poorly nutritious diet, you're not having the antioxidants which will combat the free radicals. And, free radicals can be quite damaging at cellular level and can cause cellular damage. And, if not attended to, can eventually lead to sort of organ damage as well.

Ben:  Yeah. And, of course, I personally eat an omnivorous diet, a wide variety of regeneratively-raised animals or animals that I've hunted personally, and I know the source of that meat. I think deep-fried foods in vegetable oils, in particular, a lot of polyunsaturated fatty acids, those are the highest sources of free radicals, just from the oil oxidation. So, I think, if someone could make any dietary modification, that would be the very first thing to get rid of, would be all fried foods in vegetable oils.

But, in terms of eating raw, I don't know if I'm on board with that. There was a pretty good report in the Journal of Agriculture and Food Chemistry a few years ago where they investigated every freaking vegetable on the face of the planet, and they found that boiling and steaming actually preserved the antioxidants like carotenoids in many foods like carrots or zucchini or broccoli. And, other foods did better raw. For example, the vitamin C that you might get from a tomato, for example, would wind up getting degraded through oxidation and exposure to heat. But, I agree that we see over and over again in most long-lived populations, just from a pure epidemiological standpoint, wide variety of plants, herbs, spices, and relative absence of vegetable oil, particularly.

Now, when it comes to these four factors, nutrition, EMFs, toxins, and stress, I'm sure that you, guys, have some other ideas based on what you learned and write in the book about how we can be naturally healthy. And, I know that we're coming up against time pretty soon, but I would love to hear each of you kind of give your own feel on what you think are the best tactics that we have in our health toolbox right now to battle a lot of the issues that are going on around us, particularly related to either the internal environment or the external environments making us more susceptible to disease. And, maybe, Dawn can go first, because I think Dawn hasn't got a chance to talk as much as David. David's been hogging the mic.

Dawn:  That's okay. Well, taking each of the four factors, knowing that poor nutrition contributes to bad health, then, obviously, one of the things to do is to look at the diet. There's certain foods that you were saying to avoid. But, one of the other big food groups to avoid are the processed foods, especially, new sort of manufactured food products that rarely contain any kind of level of nutrients, certainly, because of the processing, in most cases, it lose the nutritional value. But, also, they use a lot of chemicals as preservatives or coloring agents or flavoring agents. And, when you look at the chemicals that are used, they're not healthy at all. And, some of them do involve petrochemicals and that kind of thing, which you think, well, you don't really want to eat that.

So, one of the solutions, really, is to look at your diet and to eat what we might call as cleanly as possible, as fresh as possible, and avoiding foods that are processed or that had pesticides, and those sorts of things. So, that's one thing, which actually does two things because it increases the nutrient level within the body. It also helps the body expel the toxins. And so, it increases nutrition, but also, it helps to remove toxins. So, it does sort of two things in one go.

Exposures to toxic chemicals. The only thing you can do is learn where the sources of toxins are. So, all the products that you may use personally or in the home, these are the kind of products that you can make changes. You can look at the labels, decide which chemicals you don't want and go for non-toxic alternatives. And, there's definitely a growing market for people producing none or less toxic, non-toxic products. But, many cleaning agents you don't even need to buy because there are certain very simple things you can do for cleaning.

Ben:  Yeah. Lemon juice, salt, vinegar. There's all sorts of simple ways to detox. So, you eat clean, detox. I would imagine you're going to mention cleaning up the electrical environment, too, just based on the EMFs. What about the stress? What's the number one thing that you do personally to manage stress, Dawn?

Dawn:  Well, to recognize that it can be detrimental. So, to try and take time out to find things that are enjoyable and amusing, to spend time outdoors in the fresh air, exercise, to do things that you enjoy, to find time to relax. But, one of the other things is to avoid things that make you fearful. And, of course, that's one of the big things that's going on at the moment that everyone's being made to live in fear, which is why we try and stress the fact that this is not a dangerous virus that's going around to help people remove their fear about some invisible enemy which doesn't actually exist. So, it is to just find ways to lift your spirit, to do things that you enjoy. It's not always easy.

Ben:  Replace fear with, I think, trust and joy are the two. So, for me, it's trusting God, prayer, belief in a higher power, and turning a lot of my worries over to God. And then, at the same time, joy, like singing, laughter, family, hobbies, activities, all the things that make you forget about the fear that's blanketing our environment right now. So, yeah, I am totally on board with that.

The other thing is, and I think this is really important, and so I want to mention it, because I didn't see you talk about a lot of this in the book, but I think it's really important. When we're looking at how much this comes down to the earth and the environment that we live in, yeah, eat clean, clean up EMF in your personal environment, de-stress, begin to use natural personal care products and household cleaning chemicals and clean up toxins, but also, consider our planet because that's the entire other part of this equation. Use reusable bags when you're going shopping. Print as little as necessary, unless you have to print. Recycle. Use reusable beverage containers. Don't throw books and papers and things like that away unless you absolutely have to. Save electricity. Save water. Carpool.

And, there's a lot of things that you can do to care for this planet. I'm even getting very careful because I read some interesting data about how much extra carbon you burn through just downloading extra things on the internet. Even that's not free from a planetary standpoint. So, if you don't have to download something and use bandwidth, don't download it. People just think bandwidth is free, but it's actually not. It actually does take energy to produce. And, that's just yet another kind of carbon drain. So, I think that the environmental pieces here is really important, too.

David, what are your top health tips for people, if you could pick a few of your favorites?

David:  Well, pretty much what Dawn and yourself have already covered, actually. Obviously, as an electrical engineer, I would stress some of those points, because we live in an electrical age. We're using electrical things and electronics to be able to talk to one another now across the ocean as it were. So, it's very necessary. But, there are certain things that you can do to protect yourself. As I say, because of my training and understanding, I know the dangers of exposure to EMFs. And, some people become more sensitized than others, and it can be very detrimental to their way of life.

But, there are things that people can do. And, that is things like with their cellphones. Don't hold them next to your head. Put them on hands-free so you can keep them, at least, a foot or so away from you. You can have a perfectly good conversation where you're not putting yourself close into the radiation field of the phone. If you're able to, certainly, when you go to bed at night, don't have electrical devices in your room. Certainly, don't take your phone to bed and leave it on the bedside table or anything. Keep everything electrical out of your room. If it's possible to switch off your Wi-Fi hub at night when you're not using it or anytime you're not using it, I know that's not always possible, but if you can, do so. So, it's little things that you can do.

I would certainly recommend as well, I know this happened to me, because, like many people, before I realized what was happening, I had cordless telephones in the house until I sort of got myself a radio frequency meter to be able to test the strength of radiation given out by various objects. And, I found that the power coming out from the base station of cordless telephones was horrendous. So, I got rid of them straight away and just went back to one wired telephone in the house, rather than all these cordless telephones around. So, if anyone wants to have a look at their environment, there's plenty of these little radio frequency meters on the market, particularly, in the states, which you can get quite easily. They're not too expensive. And so, you can sort of scan your home and just see where and if you have high levels of electromagnetic radiation coming from. And then, you can do something about it. Either keep them away from you. Certainly, keep them away from your children. Make sure that they're not going to bed and there's some smart meter on the other side of the wall or Wi-Fi hub or something like that, because children, in particular, are very susceptible. Particularly, their developing brain is very susceptible to electromagnetic radiation.

Ben:  And, I've covered that a lot, too. I have a whole podcast on building biology that we just released. But, yeah, a lot of these cordless wireless transmitting devices, they're some of the biggest issues. It almost annoys people when they come over and visit on my house because I don't have Wi-Fi. So, if you come to my house, you have to plug in and use a metal shielded Ethernet cable to get internet in any room. And, we have no smart appliances, no Bluetooth. And, yeah, it's inconvenient, but you know what? Being healthy is quite convenient.

David:  It is.

Ben:  You, guys, have so many other things, obviously. The book's over 700 pages long. We even scratched the surface as far as a lot of the super fascinating, I don't want to call them conspiracy theories, but I guess alternative ways to view a lot of things from spina bifida, to autism, to cancer, to anthrax, to syphilis, to leprosy, pretty much everything that humankind has dealt with, you, guys, discuss in the book in a very unique fashion. And so, it's just absolutely fantastic. By the way, did you guys do an audio version of this one?

Dawn:  No, [01:15:46] ______.

Ben:  I was going to say that [01:15:47] ______.

Dawn:  No, we haven't.

David:  No. Because it's so big, it's quite a mammoth project to sort of do an audio version.

Ben:  What I would do is find somebody who really wants to learn everything in this book frontwards and backwards, and then, pay them a little bit of money, somebody with a good mic set up and have them record it all for you, and then, just submit that to Amazon, ACX, or Audible. Maybe, if somebody's listening in, if you're listening in and you want to read this entire book front to back and get with Dawn and David to, maybe, record it for them, leave a comment. I'd do it, but I've got too many other things to say into the microphone these days to record a book.

But, anyways, the book is called “What Really Makes You Ill?” Everything that Dawn and David and I talked about, you can find at BenGreenfieldFitness.com/Ill. That's BenGreenfieldFitness.com/I-L-L. The book is worth adding to your library. It might take you a little ways to get through, but, heck, just read a tiny section a day, and I guarantee that, a couple of months from now, you'll know a lot more about chronic disease on this planet and what we can do about it.

And, it's so interesting, because, although the arguments and the history and the controversies are so complex, the solutions are so simple. Eat clean food and water, detox your environment, limit your exposure to EMF, and don't live under chronic stress. I just love that you, guys, boil it down to those four factors. And then, of course, like I mentioned, I would throw in a fifth. Take care of our freaking planet. So, that all being said, Dawn, David, we kind of only scratched the surface as far as everything that I wanted to ask you, but I think that we've given people a lot to chew on in today's show. So, thank you.

Dawn:  Well, thank you.

David:  Thank you, Ben, for having us on. And, hopefully, that's helped clarify a few things for your audience.

Ben:  Absolutely, absolutely. Alright, folks. The book is called “What Really Makes You Ill? Why Everything You Thought You Knew About Disease Is Wrong.” The shownotes are at BenGreenfieldFitness.com/Ill. Dawn, David, and I are going to sign out from BenGreenfieldFitness.com. Have an amazing week.

Well, thanks for listening to today's show. You can grab all the shownotes, the resources, pretty much everything that I mentioned over at BenGreenfieldFitness.com, along with plenty of other goodies from me, including the highly helpful “Ben Recommends” page, which is a list of pretty much everything that I've ever recommended for hormones, sleep, digestion, fat loss, performance, and plenty more. Please, also, know that all the links, all the promo codes, that I mentioned during this and every episode help to make this podcast happen and to generate income that enables me to keep bringing you this content every single week. So, when you listen in, be sure to use the links in the shownotes, use the promo codes that I generate, because that helps to float this thing and keep it coming to you each and every week.



What Really Makes You Ill? Why Everything You Thought You Knew About Disease Is Wrong is a massive book that I just finished…

…and briefly alluded to in my post Why I’m Not Afraid Of The Coronavirus (& A New, Controversial View On Viruses In General.

This highly controversial book will explain what really makes you ill and why everything you thought you knew about disease is wrong, based on Voltaire's quote that: “Doctors are men who prescribe medicines of which they know little, to cure diseases of which they know less, in human beings of whom they know nothing.” The book reminds me of my recent interview Why Viruses Are Crucial To Life On This Planet, The Link Between Air Pollution, Glyphosate & Pandemics, Loss Of Biodiversity (& What We Can Do About It) & More With Dr. Zach Bush.

The authors argue that the conventional approach adopted by most healthcare systems entails the use of “medicine” to treat human disease. The idea, encapsulated by the above quote attributed to Voltaire, the nom de plume of François-Marie Arouet (1694-1778), will no doubt be regarded by most people as inapplicable to 21st-century healthcare, especially the system known as modern medicine. The reason that people would consider this idea to no longer be relevant is likely to be based on the assumption that “medical science” has made significant advances since the 18th century and that 21st-century doctors, therefore, possess a thorough—if not quite complete—knowledge of medicines, diseases, and the human body. Unfortunately, however, this would be a mistaken assumption—as this book will demonstrate.

Dawn Lester and David Parker are my guests on today's show, and they are the authors of What Really Makes You Ill?. They have backgrounds in the fields of accountancy and electrical engineering, respectively. These fields both require an aptitude for logic, which proved extremely useful for their investigation that has involved more than ten years of continuous research to find answers to the question: What really makes people ill?.

A popular saying, which is often attributed to Albert Einstein, claims that problems cannot be solved by using the same way of thinking that created them. The concept underlying this saying can be extrapolated to indicate that a problem can often be better understood by people outside of the discipline in which it occurs because they are not bound by any dogma or biases inherent within that discipline. The authors’ investigation of why people become ill was conducted from a different perspective from that of the medical establishment; it was, therefore, free from the dogma and biases inherent within medical science. This unbiased and logical approach enabled them to follow the evidence with open minds and led them to discover the flaws within the information about illness and disease that is promulgated by the medical establishment.

The results of their investigation are revealed within their book, and we explore those results on today's show.

The content in this episode is not intended to provide medical, diagnosis, or treatment advice. The products, information, services, and other content included are provided for informational purposes only. Please consult with a qualified healthcare professional regarding any medical or health-related diagnosis or treatment options.

During this discussion, you'll discover:

-Why an accountant and engineer decided to write a book about health and disease…7:03

  • Book required over 10 years of research
  • Friends and family members were diagnosed with cancer; took conventional treatments with no success
  • Reported success numbers (50%) did not correlate with David's experience (100% mortality rate)
  • Another family member with cancer refused medical treatment and it went away in 1.5 years
  • Book: Biology of Belief by Bruce Lipton
  • Placebo effect, change outlook on life plays a role in “spontaneous remission”
  • The Nature of Reality – their first book together
  • Led to a study on viruses, the impact of belief on one's health, etc.
  • The conventional wisdom was not rooted in science

-Why David and Dawn's non-medical backgrounds were an asset to their research…14:15

  • AIDS was the first disease they studied
  • Lifestyle factors – drugs and antibiotics – cause AIDS
  • Many doctors will not speak out on this for fear of losing their job, reputation, etc.
  • No peer-reviewed articles which identify any type of virus as the cause of AIDS
  • Kary Mullis, Nobel Prize awardee, inventor of the PCR method, also looked for those papers
  • Research without bias, nor upsetting the hierarchy of their respective fields
  • Doctors are not allowed to ask the questions David and Dawn can

-Why AIDS is rampant in Africa without drugs and antibiotics that cause it…21:10

  • AIDS cases are high in Africa because more cases reported = more funding from the WHO
  • Incentive to misreport, or misattribute other diseases as AIDS
  • Pregnancy can produce a positive test (false positives) due to proteins found in the body
  • BGF podcast with Dr. Zach Bush

-What we can learn from the 1918 Spanish Flu pandemic today…35:30

  • Large discrepancy in the number of reported deaths (official figures range from 10 million to a hundred million)
  • Young healthy men in the army became ill, even died, after receiving a flu vaccine
  • Brain hemorrhages, internal hemorrhaging, abnormal flu symptoms
  • Book: The Invisible Rainbow by Arthur Firstenberg
  • Most severe cases correlated with high-powered telecommunication equipment
  • Climate changes in India caused massive drought; incorrectly attributed to the Spanish flu
  • Book: Pandora's Poison by Joe Thornton
    • Chlorine gas used as a chemical weapon
    • Nitroglycerin, which was manufactured in large quantities and used extensively for gunpowder
  • No evidence suggests a virus caused the pandemic
  • The trauma of ongoing war would have been a factor in public health
  • Aspirin used at much higher doses than today

-The dangers of chlorine…46:00

  • Chlorine is always found in compounds, where it's stable
  • Chlorine gas is highly reactive, combines quickly with organic matter
  • The danger is in the chlorine, not the germs they kill
  • Reverse osmosis water filter
  • BGF podcast with Dr. David Getoff on chlorine in water
  • Treat water with ozone and UV

-Giant rocks in space related to shifts in world health…49:30

  • Great Plague (black death) purportedly due to infected rat fleas infecting humans
  • Other life that could not be affected by fleas were dying in massive numbers (fish in large numbers were floating dead in rivers and waterways)
  • Many environmental events (volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, even a comet) reported by eyewitnesses of the time created toxic atmosphere
  • Book: New Light on the Black Death by Dr. Mike Baillie
    • Studied trees alive during that period; tree rings confirmed the presence of high levels of toxic chemicals like ammonia
    • Did a correlation of tree rings and ice core samples and found the same

-What really makes you ill (if it's not a virus)…57:05

-How David and Dawn have altered their diets since writing their book…1:01:00

  • Both became vegans
  • Recommend plant-based diet, organic foods
  • Soils are dead nutritionally; plants grow only due to chemical fertilizers
  • The more raw food you can eat, the better
  • Fried foods in vegetable oils are the lowest hanging fruit

-How to naturally battle health issues in our internal and external environments…1:05:30

  • Avoid processed foods
  • Eat as fresh as possible; no pesticides or herbicides; avoid processed foods as much as possible
  • Clean up electrical environments
  • How Dawn manages stress:
    • Take time to do amusing things
    • Exercise
    • Avoid things that bring on fear
  • Replace fear with trust and joy

-David's top health tips…1:11:45

  • Don't hold cell phone next to head
  • Switch off wifi hub when not using
  • Cordless phone station gives off huge amounts of radiation
  • Radio frequency meter (use code BEN5 to save 5%) to test radiation emitted by cordless phones
  • BGF podcasts with Brian Hoyer

-And much more!

Resources from this episode:

Dawn Lester and David Parker:

– BGF podcasts and articles:

– Books:

– Other resources:

Episode sponsors:

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Do you have questions, thoughts, or feedback for Dawn Lester, David Parker or me? Leave your comments below and one of us will reply!



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One thought on “[Transcript] – What Really Makes You Ill? Why Everything You Thought You Knew About Disease Is Wrong.

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