March 18, 2023
You may have heard me talking lately about how I've been enjoying an evening cocktail comprised of ketones instead of alcohol.
This drink is a shockingly close equivalent to both the taste and effect of popular drinks like Gin & Tonic, Moscow Mule, Pina Colada, etc., but without any toxic side effects of alcohol (while I have no problem with a glass or two of organic, biodynamic red wine or a healthy cocktail here and there, it's been really nice to have a tasty alternative).
The first roadblock to bringing the product to market was finding a commercial laboratory able to actually make the ketone ester at scale and under $100 a serving (Dave Asprey spent $25k for one serving in 2015!). Frank and his team were warned in advance that multiple huge public companies over the last ten years had tried and failed to deliver the ketone ester at an acceptable purity level and price.
Frankās team contacted hundreds of labs within six months to find the perfect partner. Ultimately, they needed to buy all the necessary equipment three separate times to scale from bench to pilot and ultimately to full-scale production. Working together as a team, they succeeded in making small batches of the purest ketone ester ever tested – and that's what I've been drinking.
During our discussion, you'll discover:
-Ben's “alcohol alternative” evening routine…05:15
- Still enjoys red wine a few nights a week
- Drinks “Ketone Cocktails” instead (code BEN auto-applied for free shipping up to $20)
- Creates the same socially lubricated and relaxing effects as alcohol
- KetoneAid makes authentic-tasting alternatives to cocktails
- Podcast with Dominic D'Agostino
- Ben's live tasting of KetoneAid's brand-new Keto beer
-How Frank got into the ketone industry…09:06
- Daniel Odio's blog post on the ketogenic diet: Two Years in Ketosis: My Health Update
- Tim Ferriss eating massive amounts of cheese on the ketogenic diet
- Responsible for popularizing this correlation
- Frank's wife's godfather is Dr. Richard Veech
- Podcast with Dr. Richard Veech:
- Ketones, The Fourth Fuel by Travis Christofferson
- Met with Dr. Richard Veech and pitched an idea to him
- “We think people will spend $60/day to drink something that tastes like vomit”
- Frank worked to develop a way to bring the price down
- Dave Asprey spent $25,000 for a serving of ketone ester (25 g of DāĪ²āHydroxybutyrate D-1,3 Butanediol)
- Frank sent Ben some of the first batches of ketone esters to test out 5-6 years ago
- Ben won the Tough Mudder competition he was competing in at that time
- KetoneAid is manufactured in the US (code BEN auto-applied for free shipping up to $20)
-What exactly is a ketone ester?…13:50
- Exogenous ketones vs. endogenous ketones
- Exogenous ketones – when you consume something that is a ketone, or something that converts easily to a ketone
- Endogenous ketones – when your body burns fat to make ketones or when on a ketogenic diet
- Ketone esters are under the umbrella of exogenous ketones
- MCT Oil – C8 version where 10% converts to Ī²āHydroxybutyrate
- Drinking exogenous ketones does not put you into ketosis; only mimics ketosis
- Ketone ester – most researched of all exogenous ketones
- Ketohol or R-1,3 Butanediol and ketone esters are related but not exactly the same (different molecule)
- Ketone ester is for performance while Ketohol is for relaxation
- Ester is a bond between 2 molecules
- Ketone ester – the D-Ī²āHydroxybutyrate molecule bound to an R1,3 Butanediol molecule
- Enters the bloodstream intact (more bioavailable than the individual parts)
- Both a fast release and slow release of ketones
- The bond breaks apart once it gets into the bloodstream
- Readily available Ī²āHydroxybutyrate free acid (fast release)
- R1,3 Butanediol after several passes goes to the liver and creates ketones (slow release)
- R1,3 Butanediol was tested on mice
- Mice behaved as though they were “drunk”
- A serving of the KetoneAid KE4, is 50% ketone ester
- The bond between the two molecules creates balance
- Recommended to drink ketone esters in a fasted state
- Ketone esters are always liquid
-What exactly is a ketone salt?…21:20
- Ketone salt is a bond of the free acid D-Ī²āHydroxybutyrate with sodium, potassium, magnesium, or calcium added to neutralize the acid
- Consuming ketone salts can have deleterious effects due to the high salt content
- Most ketone salts on the market are of the racemic form (only half is bioavailable)
- Some people use them to get into ketosis, but are being tricked
- High salt content that is causing them to “feel” like they are in ketosis
- Many ketone salts on the market also include caffeine, which can interfere with the feeling of ketosis
-What's the difference KetoneAid's KE4 Ketone Ester and KetoneWater?…35:50
- KetoneAid KE4 Ketone Ester (code BEN auto-applied for free shipping up to $20)
- 50% Ketone Ester (D-Ī²āHydroxybutyrate bound to R1,3 Butanediol)
- 50% water
- No sugars, no carbs
- Ā KetoneWater (code BEN auto-applied for free shipping up to $20)
- 1% ketone ester
- Sparkling water
- Ben's new “Pellegrino”
-One of Ben's hacks for long flights…38:36
- Drinks a whole bottle of KetoneAid KE4 Ketone Ester (code BEN auto-applied for free shipping up to $20)
- Anti-inflammatory effects
- Cellular protection
- Hunger suppressant
- Helps with jet lag
-KetoneAid's KE1…40:11
- The KE1 focuses on taste (code BEN auto-applied for free shipping up to $20)
- Six times more water than the KE4
- 60% Ketone Ester
- 20% Ketone free acid
- 20% Ketone salt (D form)
-KetoneAid's Snake Water contains no stimulants, yet really “packs a wallop”…42:35
- The Snake Water contains:
- BCAA 2:1:1- Brain Chain Amino Acids (Leucine, Isoleucine, and Valine) 375mg
- NALT Tyrosine
- Beta Alanine
- L-Taurine
- B12
- Dynamine
- Teacrine
- L-Theanine
- Isomaltulose – a slow release, low glycemic index carb
- Huperzine A
- Niacin
- Potassium Sorbate
- Monk Fruit, Stevia
- No regular “fast” carbs or sugars
- Contains a slow carbohydrate to balance blood sugar
- Ideal for cardio workouts
- Sweeter than the other KetoneAid beverages (code BEN auto-applied for free shipping up to $20)
- Isn't addictive
- Kratom-free
-Ben's live tasting of KetoneAid's Keto Beer…47:11
- Consists of pure R1,3 Butanediol and flavoring
- Ben's taken back to his college days
- One beer contains 100 calories, 75 calories from the Ketohol
- The difference between ethanol and ketohol
- Dr. Andrew Huberman – What Alcohol Does to Your Body, Brain & Health
-What would happen if you had both a regular alcoholic drink and a ketoholic drink at the same time?…55:15
- May increase the potency of regular alcohol
- Some people reported drinking less alcohol if they drink ketohol at the same time
- Makes them feel full
- Alcohol often makes people want to eat more
-Why ketohol might be a good alternative to giving up alcohol and not replacing it with other substances, like marijuana…57:50
- “Dry January” compliant
- Could help you get off of ethanol
-Has KetoneAid done studies on sleep architecture?…59:00
- No clinical trials yet
- Looking at Oura Ring data of customers
- One keto beverage improves deep sleep by 30 minutes
- 2-3 keto beverages resulted in an Oura Ring sleep score of 75, which is good
- Drinking water before bed will help
- Upping water intake while in ketosis is recommended
- Ben's sleep improved with the KetoneAid KE4 EstersĀ (code BEN auto-applied for free shipping up to $20)
- Too much KE4 consumption will negatively impact sleep
- One-third of Amazon reviews are about improved sleep architecture
-Is R1,3 Butanediol performance enhancing or does it promote relaxation?ā¦1:03:05
- How R1,3 Butanediol differs from ketone salts
- No sodium limiting factor
- Some “science-hijacking” has occurred in the ketone industry to show that R1,3 Butanediol enhances performance
- Two studies on professional cyclists that took R1,3 Butanediol show a decrease in performance
- Reported symptoms of being drunk
- Not safe to take when performing sports
- Much of the marketing is misleading
- Snake Water (code BEN auto-applied for free shipping up to $20)
-Ben's summary of the types of ketones and ketone molecules, and their recommended uses…1:08:42
- Ketone salts, especially the racemic version, require you to take large amounts
- The amount of salt negates some of the ketone benefits
- Ketone esters are for cognitive and performance enhancement
- Ketohol (R1,3 Butanediol) is for relaxation
- KetoneAid Packs (code BEN auto-applied for free shipping up to $20)
-And much moreā¦
Upcoming Events:
- Keep up on Ben's LIVE appearances by followingĀ bengreenfieldfitness.com/calendar!
Click here for the full written transcript of this podcast episode.
Resources mentioned in this episode:
– Frank Llosa:
- KetoneAid (code BEN auto-applied for free shipping up to $20)
- Ketone Cocktails
- R-1,3 Butanediol Hard Ketones
- KetoneAid KE4
- KetoneWater
- Snake Water
- KetoneAid Packs
- Ketones, The Fourth Fuel by Travis Christofferson
– Podcasts:
- Which Ketone Supplement Works Best: Ketone Salts vs. Ketone Esters With Dr. Dominic DāAgostino.
- Could This Ketosis-Based Elixir Hold The Key To Weight Loss, World Record Performances, Brain Healing and More?
– Other Resources:
- Oura Ring
- Dr. Andrew Huberman – What Alcohol Does to Your Body, Brain & Health
- Daniel Odio – Two Years in Ketosis: My Health Update
- Tough Mudder
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Do you have questions, thoughts, or feedback for Frank Llosa or me? Leave your comments below and one of us will reply!
I am trying to find information on how safe Ketohol really is. How many of these drinks can I have in one night and how often can I drink them. Will they interfere with any medications?
I’m still not understanding how this Ketohol should/shouldn’t be consumed. I heard something about you having it with a meal and then I thought I heard/read something else about how it works better if you’re fasting first? Maybe I misunderstood, but if you were to have a Ketohol drink with or after dinner, would it still have the same “socially lubricating” effects? Thanks. (I don’t know anything about keto diets, but I like this podcast for the variety of health-oriented content, and would love to find something to occasionally unwind in the evening without the sleep-disrupting side effects of a regular cocktail!)
Hey Lori,
Frank here. KetoneAid & Hard Ketones.
Great question.
It depends what your goals are. If the focus is to feel the buzz, the empty stomach brings it out more. Some feel it with half a drink, some need two to feel the buzz.
You sure can take it with a meal, it may suppress your appetite for that meal and it may counter some blood sugar raising effects of meals. But you may be less likely to feel the buzz. It likely still will offer a relaxation and social lubricating feeling.
Also some may drink it for the taste during a meal, especially if they don’t want regular alcohol.
Thanks
Frank
Thanks for the reply. I noticed on your site that most things are on backorder, so I just ordered the sampler pack today to give this a try!
Curious why one would choose this over Ketone IQ? How do they differ?
It has the same ingredient.
You are right, it is very confusing and a mixed message.
One is marketed as a brain drink and performance drink, one is marketed as a relaxation and buzz and “not for sport”. Up to you to decide who is correct.
Also the Hard Ketones is more diluted and flavor is the focus, it tastes yummy. The Iq is still like a harsh shot.
Hope you find something that works for you.
Frank
How does HVMN compare?
I am wondering the same. Frank definitely referred to them at one point in the podcast.
Same ingredient. R 1,3 butanediol.
One is marketed as a ketone ester killer (a product we actually have) and brain and performance drink.
One is an alcoholic replacement with a buzz not for sport.
Ours tastes yummy.
Sorry it is so confusing.
Frank
Answered above.
When is an Old fashion coming out?
What are you referring to?
Will they be coming out with an old fashion ketone drink? I love old fashion but not the hang over
Yes!
Great idea for a mixed drink.
That is our long term goal, to mimic ever ethanol based drink available today.
But on our short list is Champs, Beer, maybe even wine.
What if you are follow a low carb and high protein nutrition ? How do you take ketones for energy and sleep? Iām kinda confused!
Yes, taking what people see as an energy source before bed seems counter intuitive. But it isn’t an energy like caffeine or a stimulant. It is a food.
People find it gives them 30 min more deep sleep if they take 2.5ml to 5ml of KE4. Sometimes less.
The pros go up to 50ml but even 5ml is too much for me and wrecks my sleep. More isn’t better.
If it doesn’t work, take half, then if it still doesn’t work, I will refund you.
Frank
CEO KetoneAid and Hard Ketones
This was a awesome pod!
My goal is to super charge my fasts and keto diet, currently I take ampk activators when in ketosis, practice HITT, and NAD3 all for a boost in autophagy and mito biogensis. Would the ketone shots be beneficial for the extra piece in the stack? And will the Drinks be beneficial for that as well?
Chase,
I would not suggest our Hard Ketones for what you are looking to do.
The ketone ester would be better. Just keep in mind the ester can increase delivery of the rest of your stack, and perhaps in a bad way (there is a reason yiu don’t take double). Just like caffeine it will multiply that stimulant which means more spikes and more crashes.
Try it. If it doesn’t work, I will refund you. Just play around with different amounts. Some keto people need less.
You may like the Snakewater concentrate as well.
Frank
CEO KetoneAid and Hard Ketones
Do the “hard” ketone drinks have any effect BAC (blood alcohol content)?
To follow up, I’ve found out that they do NOT affect BAC levels.
Correct. Those tests will test for ethanol, not for all alcohols.
Frank