Carnivore Diet, Raw Beans, Lectin Myths, Pre-Sleep Gelatin, Apple Peels & More – Q&A Episode With Joel Greene!

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It's time for Part 3 of my monster podcast series with author Joel Greene, in which Joel hops on for an epic solosode to answer all your burning questions, including:

  • How does “The Carnivore Code” affect Crohn's disease?
  • Should you cook beans, or eat them raw?
  • How much gelatin should you eat before bed or in the afternoon?
  • If apple peel is the first way forward, my question is how much apple peel should we aim for? And what's the best color apple?
  • How should we take human milk oligosaccharides (HMO)?
  • Any thoughts on taking pectin powder (like the kind used to make jellies) in order to feed Akkermansia?
  • Can you take apple peels and predigest them like sauerkraut?
  • Is there a clean baby formula or another supplement you can recommend?
  • What are the dangers of MCT oil supplementation? 
  • What’s your opinion of Nuchido Time+ NAD supplements?
  • Do I do the 2 weeks of apple skins, HMO, and phenol powder before I attempt any of the other modules?
  • Do I do the Daisy Cutter protocol right away or wait until later? At what point do I add the other modules in?
  • What is Joel’s one-day B vitamin protocol?
  • What is your source of HMO? Which brand and product?

If you missed part 1, in which we discuss rebooting your gut and sparking fat loss using some very unique biohacks and strategies, you can listen to it at “How To Reboot The Gut, Eat Cheesecake Without Gaining Weight, Amplify Any Fasting Protocol & Maximize Fat Loss.

You can hear part 2 at “Joel Greene Podcast Part 2: How To Reshape Fat Cells, Enhance Repair During Sleep, Target Your “Circaseptan Rhythms,” Build Young Muscle & Get Rid Of Old Muscle.

You can also, check out Joel's guest post on my blog entitled “Your Body Fat Is Your Immune System’s Mothership: The Mysterious Relationship Between Fat Cells & Immunity.

So, who is Joel Greene, exactly?

To put it simply, he's a man who had his 10,000 hours in before I was even born.

  • In the 1970s, he was interval training.
  • In 1979, he was doing Olympic lifts for three hours every night.
  • In the 80s, he began studying MCTs.
  • In 1990, he began studying the keto diet.
  • In the early 90s, he was doing what would be called intermittent fasting today.
  • In the mid 90s, he experienced the rebound from chronic starvation. 
  • In the late 90s, he went through his clean eating phase, his macro phase, and his ancestral diet phase.
  • By 2001, he had his first nutrition website publishing cutting edge research.
  • By 2006, he came to the end of all the above and discovered none of it worked over time and under real-life pressure.
  • In 2007, he authored the first article for the health and fitness community based on the new science linking gut bacteria and obesity.
  • In 2008, his website hit #2 on Google for weight loss—with over 1,000 original groundbreaking articles that today represent many of the most widely copied ideas in nutrition.
  • In 2009, he launched the world's first diet system based on targeting gut bacteria.
  • In 2010, he was implementing signal activation of the AMPK pathway. The gurus only began speaking to AMPK in 2017.
  • By 2013, he had the world's largest body of anecdotal outcomes for body composition targeting the gut bacteria.
  • In 2013, he published the first article to the health and fitness community on the dangers of MCT oil supplementation.

Today—at 53, on 1 workout a week, eating whatever, whenever, with no drugs, SARMS, prohormones, or ergogenic aids ever—he is the world leader in hacking the body. He is the real deal. He has done it longer and has always been far ahead. He looks it, he lives it. What the gurus say is impossible, he was living every day before they were gurus.

He has hacked peak human…

Working out once per week…

Eating whatever, whenever…

…and does it all on fast food!

He is the future of real-world health and nutrition, today.

Joel is the creator of the VEEP Nutrition System, the world's first commercially available program based on targeting gut communities to effect biomarkers. He is a featured author, speaker, and guest in top tier publications such as Muscle and Fitness24 Hour Fitness Digital MagazineCBS OnlineSuperhuman Radio, and beyond. His system has also been featured on the Dr. Phil Show, where it has delivered astounding life-changing results.

He is the future of real-world health and nutrition—today, and his new book was one of the most nitty-gritty deep dives into “rebooting your body” that I've ever read. The Immunity Code is simply a new paradigm and an entirely new way to think about caring for your body. The new goal is learning to control immunity, health, and aging using new science-based techniques (or hacks, if you will) to steer immunity for health and to slow, or even reverse, aging. ​

This book will change everything you know about your body. Starting with simple easy to-dos that build one on top of the other, you will emerge with a powerful understanding of how your body really works and how to control it over time, in the real world. Simply put, you will jump 10 years ahead of anything else on the shelf today.

In this episode, you'll discover:

-Crohn's disease and the carnivore diet…7:05

  • The Carnivore Code podcast about Crohn's disease
  • The Truth About The Carnivore Diet: Everything You Need To Know About Dangers, Benefits, Mistakes & Hacks For Eating Only Meat, With Dr. Paul Saladino.
  • Going purely plant-based may show short-term benefit, but long-term harm
  • What will heal the gut?
  • Oil and gas in the engine: the order in which it is added is essential
  • Structure-function of the gut:
    • Essential foods based on how the gut works
    • Diet that's high in fish and fiber may be the most beneficial
    • High meat and omega 6 fats may increase susceptibility to Crohn's disease
  • Gut and colon exist in a state of extreme oxidative stress (normal for the colon)
  • The colon is where most digestion takes place
    • Butyrate is the primary fuel of colonocytes, the cells lining the colon
    • When you use the saccharolytic pathway to fiber, you get antioxidants and short-chain fatty acids (SCFA)
    • When you use amino acids to make butyrate, you get short SCFAs and ammonia
  • When the right bacteria in place is given fiber, you get:
    • Optimal amounts of butyrate
    • Moderate amounts of propionate and acetate
  • Fatty liver a result of too much acetate
  • Macrophages in the colon are adapted to ignore inflammatory signals like interleukin 1β (IL-1β)
    • Antioxidants maintain this colonic homeostasis
  • When the colon is deprived of antioxidants…
    • Ascorbate levels in the colonic walls go down
    • Inflammatory mediators like tumor necrosis factor-alpha (TNFα) is elevated, shutting off butyrate transport (gut can't make use of butyrate)
  • Crohn's disease is characterized by…
    • A loss of butyrate-producing species of bacteria
    • A gain of methane-producing species of bacteria
  • Butyrate is also made from amino acids and other proteins
  • Butyrate from amino acids gives:
    • SCFAs
    • Ammonia
  • Sustained production of ammonia gives cancer-promoting alkylated carbonyls
    • Higher alkalinity in the colon will lead to cancer
  • Fiber and plants are the optimal way to feed the colon
  • Long term production of butyrate from sources other than fiber gives you…
    • A lack of antioxidants
    • Ammonia
    • SCFA imbalances
  • Lower gut is fed by plants
  • Upper gut is fed by animal foods
    • Animal proteins are the best source of amino acids
    • Amino acids with niacin (also abundant in meat) are beneficial for the gut

-Diet strategies for improving mental health…17:50

  • Studies done on mice are limited in their efficacy to treat humans' mental health
  • Changes in gut biome give a bump in energy, but not big differences in mood
  • Reductions in body fat and improvements in metabolism are correlated with improved mood, ameliorating depression
  • Research project headed by Dr. Ryan D'Arcy, a type of “FitBit or Oura Ring for the brain” (wearable for the brain)
    • Maps and measures the impact of various specific indices of cognitive performance such as mood, depression, recall, etc.
    • Measures how changes in the gut biome can affect mood, depression, energy, etc.

-Raw beans and toxic lectins…24:00

  • Cook then cool down beans
  • Not all lectins are toxic; many have large health benefits
    • Chick pea lectins inhibit breast cancer
    • Banana lectins can slow the growth of liver cancer
    • Concanavalin, a legume lectin, kills certain types of cancer in mice and ameliorates diabetes and HIV in humans
    • Human lectins are essential for immunity

-How much gelatin to eat after lunch and before bed…25:00

  • ~100 grams via 5 cal. jello
  • Bedtime intake results in body fat reduction
  • Glycine in the jello tends to sensitize adiponectin and helps improve insulin sensitivity
  • During the day, it helps with hunger pangs while dieting strictly

-How much, and what color apple peels are the best?…25:45

  • Red apples due to color pigments
  • Not an exact science on the amounts due to individual tolerances
  • Start small, titrate your dose up due to your own tolerance
  • Strains of bacteria in the gut will affect the best intake

-Should we take human milk oligosaccharides (HMO) powder dry, or in a smoothie…26:45

-Citrus pectin and feeding Akkermansia bacteria…27:20

  • Citrus pectin is similar to apple peel in terms of polysaccharides; don't absorb very well in the gut unless heated
  • Does not really feed Akkermansia
  • What citrus pectins do is prevent cancer

-Can you take apple peels and pre-digest them like sauerkraut?..28:10

  • Fermentation is what makes bacteria; the idea is to make bacteria in the gut

-A clean baby formula Joel recommends…28:35

  • There are a lot of HMO products in the market right now and more coming out soon

What are the dangers of MCT oil supplementation? Should we be “gluten scared”?…29:25

-NAD supplements and inflammation…30:20

-How to introduce Joel's apple peel protocol into your diet…31:20

  • Not done all the time but have to do periodically (done whenever needed)
  • Immune-related and immune-centric issues in the gut are targeted

-Should you start the two-day core eating right away?…32:30

  • Two-day core eating is meant to solve declining bifidobacteria with age, ageing in general, sleep disruption, etc.

-Should one begin the daisy-cutter protocol right away, and how often should you do it?…33:30

  • It's not for the faint of heart; only do it if you're prepared physically and mentally
  • Once a year max

-When to do Joel's B vitamin protocol…35:00

  • It is kind of a test that you do when you feel you need energy

-Does NAD increase inflammation?…35:55

  • Immune cell metabolism is the underlying issue

-Joel's preferred source of HMO…37:30

  • Baby formula does the job

-Questions from Raja at Seed Probiotics about research Joel cited in previous podcasts…38:10

  • What is the primary fuel source of colonocytes?
  • In the intestines, glutamine is the main fuel source of the enterocytes
  • Butyrate levels in the colon are more important than glutamine
  • Akkermansia levels in lean vs. obese people; men vs. women
    • Japanese herb Kampo
  • Insufficient human evidence for polyphenols stimulating Akkermansia
  • How cold exposure affects Akkermansia
  • Prebiotics blunt the effects of TNFα

Click here for the full written transcript of this podcast episode.

Resources from this episode:

– Joel Greene:

– Other resources:

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Got a question for me or Joel Greene about what was discussed in this episode, or any of Joel's previous episodes? Drop a comment below, and one of us will reply!

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48 thoughts on “Carnivore Diet, Raw Beans, Lectin Myths, Pre-Sleep Gelatin, Apple Peels & More – Q&A Episode With Joel Greene!

  1. Rick says:

    Hi Joel,
    just finished up 25 days on the Apple Skins,HMO, Red Phenol powder….
    My weight went from 151 to162 …Not sure of the next step on the immunity Code? Is it the 2 day core?Have bought hard copy of book as well as digital version and audio but still finding it hard to figure out whats next .When will the basic stuff be on KAJABI …Thx

  2. Mark says:

    In thissssssss episssssssssode we’re gonna anssssssssssssssssser quessssssssssstions about the carnivore code.

  3. Michael Sribney says:


    In the recent podcast you alluded to potential side effects of frequent use of an infrared sauna. Can you provide more detail around this?



  4. valerie says:

    Hi Joel thank you so much for all this information! you are a true genius and I really appreciate your thrive to reveling the truth that will help many people! I want to start the apple protocol since I have a lot of trouble with my gut since I was a kid and based on all the information you have been providing us; I guess this is affecting my metabolism, energy, and pure sleep. I’m the kind of person that has also tried everything and I’m still struggling with my body fat, blooding, mood swings, lack of energy, and pure sleep so I want to do this right in order to recommend it as well to many other people I know struggling with the same.
    Question: Do I need to clean the apples in a certain way in order to avoid consuming wax and pesticides?
    Can I consume apple skin dried powder instead of the actual apple?
    Do I need to consume the Apple skin, HMO, and read phenols before breakfast?
    Can I add the 3 to my regular smoothie? or do I need to consume them separately?

    thank you so much in advance!

  5. Kirsten says:

    Can a cup of bone broth or a scoop of collagen powder in a warm drink be used like the jello as a source of before bed glycine?

  6. Scott says:

    Joel – In your book, on page 215, you mention Cyclic Compression Loading. I can find a couple of studies on it but nothing that describes what it is and how to do it. Is there a resource on this that I am just missing? Thank you for your book!

  7. Mike Williams says:

    I totally agree with all comments on the books organization. Joel I beg you please help us to get this right! I sincerely thank you for your efforts on this ground breaking work. Looking forward to what is coming!

  8. Rusty says:

    Has anyone on here ordered Joel’s fat loss course yet? I loved his ideas in the book, but hard to follow. I listened to every possible podcast he was on multiple times to make heads and tails of his to do lists “two day core” vs other protocols. This Ben Greenfield podcast helped a lot with answering basic question I still had that I am sure most others had as well. I am just not sure I want to put out $150 if the course is as poorly organized as the book. He should take Ben’s advice and outsource things people are better at like publishing & marketing. It would be a shame to waste his knowledge for only a few of us that are willing to go through the pain of deciphering his work. The world needs more people that think downstream and upstream like Joel to help curb the looming diabetes crisis or the civilized world as we know it will be vastly different for our children and grandchildren. That makes you think how many savants are there in the world that have the answers, but cannot get the message to the masses??

    1. Markus says:

      I‘ve read the immunity code and use Veep Nutrition. I wasn‘t and I‘m not obese but the immunity approach for health is the reason I use both. I booked the course and the first lessons are now available. Later there will be the program step by step. Joel‘s program and protocols are no bull, well explained and you get the protocols of his book with some nice extra tips and concrete information of what, when and how much to use them. It’s like a personal coaching from Joel himself. My opinion: it‘s a bang for the bucket!

      1. Rusty says:

        Great, glad to hear. I have been following the 2 day loosely since July and have done the inflammation spin down a few times I have felt much better overall with more energy. Thanks for the feedback!

    2. Madalyn Dominick says:

      I completely agree with this. Also, I ordered the audio version and there were obviously things missing and sometimes it would just cut out. I so want to order this but wonder if I would be able to follow it. I’m so torn.

  9. Nick says:

    Could I follow this protocol if I am trying to gain weight and muscle? I’m 30 and have trouble gaining muscle no matter how much I work out or eat.

  10. Ryan says:

    Hi Joel,

    Thanks a lot for the info you are providing, I’ll be ordering the audiobook soon as I’ve been struggling with gut issues since birth. I’m very excited about trying your methods.

    I have two questions which you can hopefully answer:

    – Red phenol powder is hard to come by in the Netherlands but they do sell pure fruit powders such as strawberry, raspberry, acai etc. If I had to pick one or two, what would you suggest?

    – I just became a father and my wife has extreme milk production. She actually needs to pump besides breast feeding so as not to have the feeling her breasts are exploding. Would consuming her milk be as beneficial or better than a HMO supplement?

    Wishing you all the best and looking forward to the updates that are coming.

    1. Joel says:

      HI Ryan

      Yes you could use strawberry or raspberry powder. Same thing basically. Breast milk. – actually yes. I know some bodybuilders who used regularly do the stuff.

      1. Ryan says:

        Thanks a lot for the reply, great to know.

      2. Ryan says:

        One final question; any guideline for how much ml of milk I should consume to get enough of the beneficial HMO’s?

  11. Derek says:

    Is there any harm in eating the whole apples instead of just the skins?

    1. Joe says:

      Hi Derek – mainly it’s the calories and who are you feeding? the skins feed the bacteria in your gut. The whole apples feed you.

  12. Hi, This question may be out of the box of what this discussion is all about.Im a semi biohaker, very physically fit Im a yoga therapist, an Ayurveda practitioner and teach eastern philosophy.So I have high cholesterol since I’m in early 20’s. I’m now in my mid 60’s but I look great, still an athlete and have the same energy as I did when in my 20’s and truthfully my body has not changed.I have had high cholesterol since I was 20.I have worked with all the alternative doctors in LA, and many cardiologists. The regular doctors think maybe I should take a statin ? The alternative MD’s say they don’t think I should. MY cholesterol is now 320 and my HDL is 90. My diet and exercise is pretty perfect and has been my whole life. In fact, I could be a poster child for the work you guys do.And I have taken all the tests at the radiology labs.I take them yearly and I have no plak anywhere. I’m an anomaly?I tried red rice yeast and some other natural things. When I was in my 30’s we didn’t know we needed fat so I would go on non fat diets and nothing happened.I have added higher omega 3 ,I have tried so many things. I have no risk according to all the tests except the one that is total cholesterol. Im at a lost here.. Can you advise me please?Or just give your opinion.I have listened to every single Ben podcast. I have recently in the last year built my microbiome, in fact, I teach students how to.My colestrol stays embarrassingly high.And advice please, would be greatly appreciated..

    1. Brandon says:

      High LDL isn’t a bad thing, so long as HDL is high and insulin response is healthy (you aren’t pre/diabetic).

      Paul Saladino goes into detail on Joe Rogan Podcast for the specifics of this.

  13. Andrew says:

    What’s the order of operations that Joel discussed?
    Eat Veggies/Fruits that provide fiber (probiotics) and then eat meat ? Thx

  14. This is just a general question,I happen to go to the same cardiologist as Ben does just a coincidence.I have been eating like a semi biohacker my whole life, exercises like a warrior my whole life. Im a yoga therapist ayurveda practitioner and have studied nutrition and all things you do Im just not a scientist .So the question is , I have had high cholesterol since I was in my early 20’s. Im now mid 60’s. But im still like a young woman, just wanted you to have a picture of me in great shape . So my question is I have been to many many holistic MD,s and regular cardiologists over the years. I eat like you guys do except no meat and chicken. My cholesterol is now 320. My HDL is 90. I have no plack in my arteries and anywhere I have talked every test at the radiology lab many times and the doctors come up with nothing.The only negative thing I have is the one number of high total cholesterol. My body produces cholesterol I just do. So the regular MD’s always thought for precaution I take a statin which you know has so many side effects. The other group of doctors says no I don’t have to.I’m actually trying something now which I have never done before im taking 4 spoons of psyllium fiber daily.I will test in another month so I will have been on it for 3 months.What do you think?MY collestrol seems to be creating up but my body has no plack.. Hope this question is totally not out of the box?
    Blessings, Michelle

  15. Jeff says:

    Hi Joel. Thank you so much for the wonderful information However, I am confused by “Japanese herb Kampo” Kampo (as far as I know) is the Japanese term for Chinese (herbal) medicine in general. If kampo is a specific plant, do you have the scientific name for it? Thanks again

    1. Joel Greene says:

      Kampo is a bit of a rabbit hole. Its not a single herb but a blend. The one ins question here is Bofutsushosan

      1. Jeff says:

        Thank you Joel. Much appreciated. Actually I live in Japan so Bofutsushosan is easy for me to find.

        1. Joel says:

          Ah. Interesting. I actually grew up in a Japanese Bhuddist culture living here in the US. I remember so many interesting herbs and teas.

          1. Jeffrey Sams says:

            There are some temples (Yakuouin at Mount Takao) who sell their own tea and it is an impressive blend in terms of healthy herbs . And I do sometimes go for zazen at the local temples. Though the amount of Japanese who actually go for zazen is surprisingly low. Take care!

      2. Tad says:

        Hi Joel,

        Do you have a what when and how for Bofutsushosan?

  16. The study mentioned talks about Palmitic acid. But what if I’m supplementing with MCTs (caprylic and capric acid)?

    1. Joel says:

      Probably beneficial Depends on if coconut oil is the base. MCT effect on body composition is complex and tissue specific. There is a lot of mixed evidence about how MCT can impact body composition. I think those tow used strategically for the right purpose probably good

  17. Inogen says:

    Joel mentions a ‘stageing area coming out here in Q1’, if I heard the correctly. This will provide ‘step-through’ details as to how to follow his programme. What does he mean, where will it be?

    Thank you.

    1. Joel says:

      Hi Inogen

      It will be on Kajabi. It will have a lot of the basic stuff, Q and A, videos, etc, things to round out the book and questions people have. it will be free.

  18. Josh says:

    Hello.. is there a coupon code for the immune centric fat loss course you just unveiled? Thanks in advance!

    1. Joel says:

      Hi Josh

      Not right now. It’s brand new.

  19. Lauren Bythrow Smith says:

    Hey Joel,

    I REALLY appreciate your book and the all time you have spent on Ben’s podcast. I also follow the Minimalists, which is where I first learned of you and The Immunity Code. I think your work is incredibly important and I’d love to see it gain more attention and interest. Given the amount of questions people have about your protocols, I think the book would really benefit from some strategic organization and other minor edits. You may have worked with an editor, but what I’m referring to is different. I’d be glad to help with this if you are interested (this is what I do – take complex/comprehensive text and break it into education and tangible to-do’s). Thanks again for all the great information!

    1. Mark Nestle says:

      Agree with this comment and would strongly urge Joel to take up the offer for help. The book has very exciting and compelling information but is poorly structured, difficult to follow on account of odd syntax, and riddled with basic typos. It could be so much more powerful with the support of a more effective communicator capable of repackaging most of the ideas and instructions.

      1. Inogen says:

        Yes! This seems to be one of the most important books ever written on the subject of health an longevity, but it takes a lot of work to make sense of – it reads as if the whole book was dictated to some voice-recognition software, with no attempt to edit it. I have made mountains of notes over the past few weeks and am only just managing to get my head round it. Please do clarify so that people can follow the advice without a PhD in nutritional science!

        1. Joel says:

          Hi Inogen – no dictation lol. In the opening Chapters I said it would ask more of you, the prize being more time in a younger body. The hardest part in writing it was to find a middle ground, where it wasn’t so simple it could not be defended, but so complex no one could read it. At the end of the day, it is a work that is about one thing – solving what really happens based on what’s really true and its something I have been living myself for a long time. It’s just getting started so lots more to come. I didn’t write it to make money or get famous, I wrote it to solve the problems we all face over time with our bodies

    2. Joel says:

      There is an update coming out in Jan with that stuff as well as a staging area with a lot of the basics, Q and A, etc. Thanks for feedback Lauren!

      1. Josh Evans says:

        So good to hear of the update.
        I hope the how to section is reworked.
        The info is blowing my mind.
        So happy to see part 3 is here.
        I just hope it all works for me and I do it right.
        I feel like I’ll be filling in some blanks along the way.
        I’m 6 days into the apple skins after listening to the book 3 times while painting my house!
        I struggled with the pdf because it can’t be copied so i had to screen shot pages print then cut and paste for my fridge door.
        I’ll buy the hard copy if it is organized better.
        I’ll probably sign up to the new fat loss program just to gain more knowledge.
        I wish there was more to read online but it seems this is a big secret or Google has hidden Joel from me. Why are there no reviews or at least counter arguments?

        1. Joel says:

          Hi Josh

          Email support and they can send you a different PDF version with more features. There are reviews on amazon if you look there.

          1. Len says:

            Hi Joel,
            I’ve purchased the digital formats and a hard copy of the book. So far no replies regarding the book shipment and sending it to kindle. I’ve emailed few times already. Is the website operational outside of digital downloads? Thanks.

  20. do you have suggestions for kidney failure?

    1. Linda says:

      Atractylodes helping mine, confirmed by doctors test. I have diabetes at 66.

  21. Erin says:

    Any Suggestions for Vitamin B / Energy Protocol “on the go”? Would grapefruit juice work just as well? There seem to be some decent plantain chips on the market – any thoughts on substituting for green banana?

    1. Joel says:

      Grapefruit – somewhat. Think of the difference between eating 5 grapefruit and drinking 5 glasses of grapefruit juice. Different form factors. Different results in terms of satiety. Green banana is semi green, meaning 60% ripe 40% green as a baseline, if that helps. You can use other substrates, like dark fruits, for example. It’s just slightly different in terms of the way they feed commensal bacteria.

      1. Erin says:

        Got it! Thanks Joel. Very much looking forward to trying the new Immune Centric Fat Loss program! Happy New Year!

        1. Joel says:

          Happy New Year Erin!

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