Does It Really Matter How HOT Your Sauna Gets, Should You Use Your Phone In A Sauna, What Kind of Sauna Ben Greenfield Uses & More With Connie Zack

Ben Greenfield [00:00:00]: My name is Ben Greenfield.

Ben Greenfield [00:00:02]: And on this episode of the Boundless Life Podcast. How hot should your sauna get? What kind of sauna do I use? Should you use your phone in the sauna? Should you put red lights in your dry sauna? A whole lot more in today's Sauna Supersode with Connie Zack. All the shownotes of this one are at BenGreenfieldLife/SunlightenPodcast. Here we go. Welcome to the Boundless Life with me, your host, Ben Greenfield. I'm a personal trainer, exercise physiologist, and nutritionist, and I'm passionate about helping you discover unparalleled levels of health, fitness, longevity, and beyond. Well, it is no secret that saunas are kind of like one of the darlings of the whole biohacking, anti-aging, detox, self-improvement community. And I think as a result, there are a lot of questions that I get, a lot of people get about saunas like dry versus steam versus infrared versus the kind of lights versus EMF.

Ben Greenfield [00:01:14]: And of course, the ever-important question, do you wear the sauna hat or don't you wear the sauna hat? I have been, I'm going to say for a long time before they became trendy, a fan of these infrared saunas. And don't get me wrong, I've toured Finland, I've done the whole Finland Sauna Society traditional dry sauna where everybody's naked and whipping each other with birch branches and oak. And I am also, of course, a fan of these more techie infrared devices and have been for a while. I'm in mine anywhere from 3 to 5 times a week. You've probably seen me on Instagram doing yoga and sometimes hoisting a kettlebell in there. Not as crazy as Laird Hamilton. I haven't brought my Air Assault bike in there, but I get all these questions and I wanted to get the person who is responsible for co-founding the company that makes the sauna I use on the podcast to answer some of my dumb questions. Her name is Connie Zack.

Ben Greenfield [00:02:20]: She is the co-founder of Sunlighten, and Sunlighten is kind of considered to be one of the global leaders in full-spectrum, low-EMF infrared saunas. If you don't know what those terms mean, don't worry, we'll get there. And Connie, I think, at least from what I understand, you started off in, like, the pharmaceutical industry.

Connie Zack [00:02:43]: Yeah, I can't believe that. It's, you know, especially being— doing what I do today. Which is so focused on functional medicine and just completely different than pharma. It's so— what a shift, right? Yeah, I started off at Procter Gamble in the pharmaceutical industry. I loved my job. I loved what I did because I felt that I was making a difference. I was helping people. I worked with the gastrointestinal field, the cardiovascular field, and I mean, my goal was to try and help people feel better and live better as a result of what I did.

Connie Zack [00:03:19]: I just didn't realize I was just doing it with a Band-Aid approach at the time.

Ben Greenfield [00:03:23]: Yeah, you're one of the big bad pharma people. Do you ever get that?

Connie Zack [00:03:28]: Hey, I'm nice. I saw the light, literally and figuratively.

Ben Greenfield [00:03:32]: Yeah, I've gotten a lot of benefit from a lot of different pharmaceuticals, but there's certainly a nuanced discussion there. But where'd the sauna thing come from? come Thing in?

Connie Zack [00:03:42]: Yeah, so while I was working at P&G, at the time I was in St. Louis, and my brother was just extremely, extremely ill. And his story is so similar to so many people who we have helped over the years. But what happened to him is he, he had heavy metal toxicity, but he didn't know he had that until he went to his dentist, and his dentist said, you know what, Jason, I think what's causing all this mess that you're trying to cure is your mercury amalgam fillings in your mouth. I think that's the culprit of this sickness that had been happening for years. And he traveled to doctors, he tried everything, he spent every dime he had, he couldn't work, it was horrible. It was a really— I mean, when you watch somebody you love go through, and he was so young, and just become debilitated, it was a really— and I was in pharma, so, you know, I mean, I knew so much, but there's nothing I knew in that pharmaceuticals was, you know, able to help my brother until the dentist said, I have heard about a technology called infrared, and it could potentially detoxify the body safely and naturally in the comfort of your own home. You should do some research.

Connie Zack [00:04:53]: And my brother did. He bought an infrared sauna, and it changed— it changed his life. And then I started doing research myself. You know, I had at that time significant access. You know, now the world, everybody has access to everything. But at that time, you know, this was back in the '90s. I mean, this is a long time ago. I had access to medical information.

Connie Zack [00:05:14]: I know, forever ago. And so I started doing research on infrared. And then what I still think about today is, you know, people always talk about, oh, is there not as much research on infrared, blah, blah, blah. Like, you guys, this research has been out there for for almost 30 years. It's just, there wasn't a pharmaceutical company and there wasn't, there wasn't enough commercial activity to lift it up and elevate it and bring it, you know, to the forefront, which is what I decided to do, you know, with my life and Aaron as well, who, you know, you've met, you know, who is my business partner and, and husband. And we decided to, we, he was also working at P&G. Doing pharma, and we both decided to leave our corporate jobs and put all of our money and like anything we had, our cars, we mortgaged our cars, we mortgaged our home, we had the business in our basement. You know, we, I mean, we just took every shortcut we could in order for us to be able to figure out ways to put money into the business to bring us, you know, Sunlighten to market.

Connie Zack [00:06:22]: So that's what we've done. And That was over 25 years ago. It's crazy.

Ben Greenfield [00:06:26]: Wow. You actually just brought up one of my burning questions, this whole research thing.

Connie Zack [00:06:33]: Yeah.

Ben Greenfield [00:06:33]: Because I don't think this is throwing people under the bus, but I'm just going to say a name right now. So, for example, I think Rhonda Patrick is one person who has said, "Well, stick to the dry sauna because there's no or scant research on infrared." when we talk about a lot of conditions that someone might use a dry sauna for, like dementia or Alzheimer's or production of heat shock proteins or anything like that. And I think a lot of people think that is the case. Now, Rhonda is super smart. She's been on the podcast. I like her, but I don't know if she's misinformed on this. It sounds like she might be.

Connie Zack [00:07:14]: Yeah, there's— and I like Rhonda too. I mean, she's awesome. You can't not like Rhonda. She's great. And she's extremely knowledgeable when it— especially knowledgeable when it comes to traditional high-heat saunas. The reality is infrared— I mean, this is before I started the company, so this is a long time ago. There was plenty of data and statistically significant data, especially at that time on the cardiovascular side. And I was working with our company at the time to try and bring antihypertensives, which is blood pressure medication to market without side effects.

Connie Zack [00:07:51]: And here, the research that was already been done showed, you know, significant improvements in your cardiovascular health and your cardiovascular functions, such as increasing the elasticity, you know, changing the endothelial function, helping to lower triglycerides, statistically significantly lowering blood pressure. I mean, all these significant benefits 20-some years ago. That were out there. It's just people weren't bringing them to market. So when we started the company, we decided to start doing, like, to take our science background and put it into infrared. So, like, one of the first things we did is measured core temperature, which is funny because now today we can talk about this. There are so many conditions that we know definitively are positively impacted when you increase the body's core temperature. Back 20 years ago, nobody, you know, when we would, I would talk about increasing core temperature, people are like, why would I want to do that? You know, that sounds miserable.

Connie Zack [00:08:52]: But we did that. Sunlighten did that back in the basement. So we, you know, did this trial on increasing the body's core temperature. And then probably one of the most powerful trials. And the thing that's significant is we did this with our own product, a product that you're very familiar with, the Sunlighten Solo. Which had the first carbon heaters on the market. And the benefit of carbon at that time is you were able to harness the power of infrared at a more dense way. Saying another way, we were able to deliver the highest quantity and quality of infrared into the body, and we patented that.

Connie Zack [00:09:30]: So now we're protected. So there's no other product that has more infrared, no other product that emits more infrared into the body than sunlight.

Ben Greenfield [00:09:39]: I didn't realize that. And by the way, and I want to hear more about the infrared and the way that you've maximized it in the sauna. When you're talking about the heart, this has come up multiple times on the show. For example, when I interviewed Stephen Hussey, the author of "Understanding the Heart," it came up with Dr. Tom Cowan. It's come up on several podcasts related to light. When you're talking about cardiovascular health, I think people are aware that something like short-term heat stress could cause like a long-term hormetic effect that results in things like increases in blood volume and erythropoietin and generally a little bit higher cardiovascular fitness even in the absence of working out. But what's come up on some of these podcasts is that Beyond the heat, the actual photon packets of light structure the water within the vasculature in such a manner that you actually get smoother flow, better absorption of nitric oxide, like a lot of factors that go beyond just the heat and are instead kind of a consequence of the heat-light combination.

Connie Zack [00:10:58]: Yeah, exactly. In fact, you bring up a really good point. So, you know, we're talking about, you know, Dr. Patrick's information that she shares on, on traditional saunas. Well, something that is very unique and specific to infrared alone is the fact that it is a spectrum of heat within the sun spectrum that contains both heat and light. You cannot get that with just hot air. You, you do not get the benefit of the photon, you know, the photon neuroprotection, the, a lot of the benefits that you get from near-infrared and red light therapy, which is part of that infrared spectrum. So the most powerful way to deliver infrared is to be able to separate all of the four wavelengths and then maximize the output into the body.

Connie Zack [00:11:52]: And then you cover the entire body and you are going to not only have the most, like, most effective longevity hack you can have, but you're also going to focus specifically on every single system you cover. Like, the traditional sauna, it has significant benefit as far as the heat stress. But when you also have heat stress with light penetration into the cells and decrease inflammation and impact your mitochondria. I mean, that is like— I mean, it's just so powerful. And that's what infrared does. And that's one of the differences between infrared and traditional heat.

Ben Greenfield [00:12:35]: Yeah, I probably should have brought that up. It's not just— I mean, really, it's the lesser-known piece is the water structuring that occurs. I think more commonly known piece is what you mentioned with the mitochondria, the absorption on, I believe it's cytochrome c oxidase in the mitochondria for upregulated ATP production. A lot of people now are even talking about the old methylene blue trick. I don't know if you've tried this, Connie, but you actually take methylene blue to enhance the absorption of that light in the mitochondria and then turn out even more ATP. I actually combine methylene blue and infrared quite frequently. I don't know if you've tried that before.

Connie Zack [00:13:17]: I haven't tried that. I find that when I sit inside my sauna, my Impulse, I have the Impulse, which is behind me, which has far infrared, mid-infrared, near infrared, and red light. And I find that the impact on my brain and body when it comes to ATP and energy is already so powerful. I mean, it it is, is like literally a reset button that allows me to recharge, recover, restore, and I come out just, I mean, so, so I'm just so charged. I always say infrared supercharges your cells. And I never really understood with the water piece until I started to get deeper into it. And I met with Dr. Bland and met with Dr.

Connie Zack [00:14:04]: Hamblin, and they started to help me understand the impact of infrared on your water molecules. And the change, the way it changes the structure, and it doesn't break any bonds, which Dr. Blyne says is really important, but it does significantly start to increase flow. And that increased flow starts to increase oxygen and blood flow, cardiovascular output, as well as increased production of ATP. And all of the— all it essentially sets off this biochemical cascade that starts to positively impact every single system in our body. And that is different than traditional heat.

Ben Greenfield [00:14:44]: Yeah, yeah. And it's especially most beneficial if you're going in in a well-hydrated, well-mineralized state. So bookmark that, folks. If you want the most out of the light, you don't have to do the methylene blue thing, but definitely be hydrated and have a lot of minerals because that will help with that water structuring. That Connie's talking about. You, um, a few minutes ago said something like when you separate all four wavelengths of light. What do you mean by that?

Connie Zack [00:15:14]: Yeah, so that's an advantage of infrared over just regular heat as well, is each wavelength band has its own unique healing properties. Each wavelength band has its own unique healing properties, but you have to have the right quantity, the right amount, and you have to have the right, the precision of the wavelength because the way the wavelength works with your body and the absorption of the, into the cells, it needs to be precise. Otherwise it bounces off and it's not absorbed and it's worthless. So we, well, Sunlighten, at Sunlighten, what we started to do, gosh, this was back in 2008. 2008, before we were on Oprah in 2009, we started investigating the entire spectrum and how can you take the spectrum and separate it out and find ways to deliver mid-infrared separate than far infrared. Because what happens, Ben, is if you— let's just use the word water. If you water down far infrared, then you're not getting the high enough quantity to get the absorption to start off that biochemical cascade to affect longevity, to affect sleep, to affect mental health, like all the different benefits that we know you get from infrared, all the science that's already out there. It's ideal if you can separate them so that you can target what you're looking for, right? Because people will ask me, what happens if I want to do this? It's like, well, Far infrared is good for that, you know, and like for skin, for example, you know, near infrared and red light, oh my goodness, it's— they're so beneficial.

Connie Zack [00:17:02]: They penetrate the skin and help to immediately, immediately start to boost collagen, boost elastin, and start to repair the skin and start to accelerate cell turnover. So it's important that you can separate those wavelengths from the heat infrared, right? If you blend it all, it's like anything that you blend, you don't know what's doing what.

Ben Greenfield [00:17:25]: Interesting. So this is why I was actually waiting for this podcast to ask you this and not bug you beforehand. This is why if I go in the sunlight and I press the on button, there's like programs to choose from, like whatever, detox, recoveries. I forget what all the settings are. You could probably clarify. But I'm assuming, so what you're doing is combining different wavelengths, like turning up, turning down, almost like a DJ on the wavelengths?

Connie Zack [00:17:53]: Yeah, DJ is perfect. It's the whole fine-tuning and precision. Like, for example, I'll mention one of my favorite programs, which is the anti-aging, like the one that's focusing specifically on skin repair. So this is one where we left out mid-infrared. And when you say, why would you leave out mid-infrared? Well, mid-infrared is a shorter wavelength. So let me, let me just, let me, I'm going to go really quickly over the 4, just kind of how they're, where they, where they're absorbed. So far is absorbed the deepest. We talked about the changes in the water structure and the water molecules is absorbed the deepest.

Connie Zack [00:18:29]: And it also impacts and absorbs into the mitochondria. It starts to increase your core temperature, set off that biochemical cascade we already talked about with all the different systems. Mid-infrared is a shorter wavelength and you feel it more in hotter heat. Its beauty is it's a synergistic effect to far infrared. Next to mid-infrared is near infrared, which is completely invisible. And I'd love to chat about that for a little bit because there's so much attention on red light, which I love, but near infrared actually penetrates the most and is the most therapeutic out of the two. But it's invisible. So people are like, I can't see it.

Ben Greenfield [00:19:05]: I know the first time I got a near-infrared helmet, I was like, this thing's broken. It's not— I can't see anything.

Connie Zack [00:19:13]: Right. We get that. I mean, when we launched Impulse, you know, forever ago, back in 2011, everybody would like, wait a second, those LEDs that you guys are talking about, they're not on. I don't see anything. It's like, well, that's the purpose. They're invisible because they're past the visible part of the light spectrum. But having it past the visible part of the light spectrum, it's what makes them so special and powerful and provide the deepest impact on the skin. So back to the, the, the benefit of separating them out and the science behind the programs is what we've done is use science on what's the right frequency of near-infrared, what's the right frequency of red light, what's the right frequency of far-infrared.

Connie Zack [00:19:57]: And then combine them all together at the right intervals, pulsate them, like literally pulse— that's why the product's called Impulse— pulsate them at the right frequency and the right quantity so that you get the optimal results. So it's all about efficiency. And then we put it into a program. And the reason I use the skin, because it's easy for people to understand that you don't want heat stress on your skin. So, which is why we eliminated the mid-infrared. So in that program, it's far-infrared to purify the body from the inside out, to detoxify the body. So you're going to get that purging and then near-infrared to turn the cells over and boost the collagen and boost the elastin for younger looking skin. And then red light, which does the same thing, but it is not penetrating as deep.

Connie Zack [00:20:44]: But when you combine the two, you get a more powerful impact.

Ben Greenfield [00:20:47]: Remind me how many options there are on the dashboard. You have anti-aging.

Connie Zack [00:20:52]: Yep. 6. There's 6 programs. There's cardio, which is the most intense. There's detoxification. There's relaxation. There's pain relief also, while we're on that topic. And I'm, you know, here giving a chance to share with everybody.

Connie Zack [00:21:06]: That is absolutely one of my favorite programs because coming from pharma and, you know, we talked a lot about nonsteroidals and, you know, whole body, you know, as far as with medicine. What's so beautiful about separating the 4 wavelengths and then allowing that energy to penetrate your cells is you get this significant decrease in inflammation at every part of your body. You're not leaving anything out, and it's all without drugs. It's all safely and naturally just working with the inflammation that's there and bringing it down and calming it down so that you can restore your body back to a normal state.

Ben Greenfield [00:21:50]: Yeah, okay, cool. Got a few practical questions here. One, I'll just get out of the way myself because it leads into the second one. So many people have told me, well, it doesn't get hot enough. So I get that you don't need it as hot with the light anyways, But I turn mine on like 30, 40 minutes before I plan to get in there, and I'm usually doing like yoga and moving around in there, et cetera, anyways. My heart rate is pounding out my eyeballs 30 minutes in. And I know not everybody even wants that effect, but I get super hot in that thing. And I don't understand when people say you don't get hot enough.

Connie Zack [00:22:37]: So this is— I'm so glad you brought this up because we have been trained to use the feeling of heat slash temperature to evaluate the effectiveness of an experience, specifically a sauna, because that's, you know, when you went into a gym, you'd walk inside of the, you know, traditional sauna and you're like, oh, what's temperature is? Oh, it's 170 degrees or 180 You guys, oh, I'm really hot. Like, that's, that's just what people are familiar with. Infrared is completely different. And if I can help clarify one thing here today, really probably one of the most important things to understand the impact of this energy into our body and ourselves is it is not about temperature and it is not about feeling excessively hot. When you feel excessively hot with the air, That's a traditional sauna, and there's nothing wrong with that. But if you're looking to get the abundance of benefits with both heat stress, infrared heat, and light energy, you need to be comfortable with the fact that the energy is absorbing into the body, not the air. What makes infrared different than traditional is traditional heats the air. You get hot because the air is hot.

Connie Zack [00:24:03]: Infrared bypasses the air, and it works directly with the body. So you're getting hot, like, for you with your experience, you're like, I am hot. You are hot because the energy is heating your body, it's increasing your core. As I said, one of the first things we did with our company is evaluated, does this increase your core? Because it was such a lower temperature. And we found that in only 30 minutes you can increase your core by up to 3 degrees, which is amazing. It's amazing. So you're, you don't, you're getting the benefits and it doesn't have to be this excessive heat. In fact, I may like blow your mind here, Ben, for a second.

Connie Zack [00:24:45]: It's kind of hard to blow your mind, but maybe somebody else is listening. Is Dr. Hamblin, uh, he blew my mind when he showed this to me years and years ago. And for those of you who don't know Dr. Hamlet, who he is, he's on our medical advisory board, but that's not really what's important. What's important is he is the world's leading expert on infrared.

Ben Greenfield [00:25:07]: Well, Michael Hamlet on photobiomodulation in general. Like, last I checked, hundreds, if not thousands of PubMed references if you search for his name on PubMed.

Connie Zack [00:25:17]: Correct. He has written— I have it in my office, one in my office and one at home. And it is this thick. It's called a handbook. It's not a handbook. It is a massive, massive textbook. And it is the— all of the benefits and all of the studies on photobiomodulation, which is a technical term for the benefits of near-infrared and red light therapy on the body. And it covers everything extensive.

Connie Zack [00:25:47]: And he's the person that studied it, authored it, So, so we have, you know, we're, we're fortunate enough to be able to work to him and have access to him to ask him questions when I get thrown a loop. And I kept getting asked this question of, you know, like, what is the right time to get in? What is, what is the right temperature? What is the right this? What is the right that? And when I talked to him, this is so long ago, he said, Connie, if you can remember one thing, Remember that this is an energy. It is an energy of light because remember infrared actually is light. All, all all four, four are light, but then you feel far and mid by heat. And then the other two stay in the light because they're delivered by LEDs. And he's like, this is light energy that the body is absorbing. And so it's like any light. Like a light bulb, you turn that on, it is on the moment you turn it on.

Connie Zack [00:26:47]: There is an on and an off. It is not about temperature. It is not about waiting. In fact, the longer you wait, the shorter the wavelengths of energy are going to be, because that's scientifically what happens when you look at infrared wavelengths. As soon as you turn it on, it's the longest and smoothest. And so the bodily the body. The body most easily absorbs that wavelength and you get this immediate impact right when you turn it on. So, a lot of people prefer, let's just call it a personal preference, they prefer when they get in to have a heated environment and that's fine.

Connie Zack [00:27:30]: And, this is all about personalized medicine.

Ben Greenfield [00:27:33]: And I am one of those people, by the way. I think I'm jaded from years of heat training for Ironman triathlon. Yeah, like, I don't know.

Connie Zack [00:27:43]: That's how you prefer. I remember when I met you, that was one of the things you shared. You're like, I like it hot. I'm like, that's great. We can provide that heated experience. And so there's no right or wrong in that. It's how it works with the body and understanding that. Understanding your body, understanding how your body reacts, because the really the fittest athletes, what I learned over the years is the fitter you are, the faster you're going to sweat, the faster you're going to feel heat, the faster everything because your body is so acclimated and is just, it's very, very fit.

Connie Zack [00:28:24]: So those individuals that aren't as fit, it is more important. Like people like my brother who had heavy metal toxicity, people who have Lyme, people who have mold, people who are trying to turn back the biological clock, like all those things, they really need to, they should take it at a lower temperature to get the optimal absorption. And then over time, if they want to have a hotter experience, then, you know, they can do that. Or they can take it, start start at a lower, start when you turn it on, and then you can stay in longer if you want. Because it's so easy to stay in. It's not like you're just feeling, oh my God, I'm going to die in here because it's very gentle.

Ben Greenfield [00:29:05]: Yeah, you're not like counting to 100 over and over again.

Connie Zack [00:29:08]: Right, exactly. It's not like you're doing breathwork or anything like that. You're enjoying yourself.

Ben Greenfield [00:29:13]: Which I do sometimes. And I wanted to ask you this. I exercise in there. I'll do some pretty hefty hard breathwork. Like I mentioned, I haven't dragged a bike in there yet, but it wouldn't be beyond me. But then, some people will say that for the detoxification effect, you want to be in a more parasympathetic state, and you may just want to be sitting there and relaxing or lying down. Is there something to that?

Connie Zack [00:29:42]: Yes, I think that— well, there is. So, there's two points I want to say to that. I'll say the first one is it's important for people to know, and I'm sure they know this, but it's just important reminder that when your body is detoxing, there's many different pathways that the body can detox. When your body is detoxing, there's many different pathways that the body can detox. So if you want to exercise and do things while you're in there. That's again, a personal preference. So the second piece that then really probably the one, you know, I'm super passionate about and we work with Dr. Mindy and she's super passionate about this as well is, you know, there's not a lot of things, there's not a lot of modalities that can so quickly take the body from that fight or flight sympathetic state where there's your, your autonomic nervous system is overcharged into the rest and digest, you know, parasympathetic state.

Connie Zack [00:30:51]: And at the parasympathetic state, your body is more open and acceptable to start healing and detoxifying and letting go of all of those stress hormones and, you know, they bring the cortisol down and you're starting to release the dopamine and serotonin, like all the happy chemicals. And that happens more at rest than it does, you know, at an active cardiovascular, you know, state. So I would always encourage people, if you're looking to really optimize your detoxification and you really want to make sure, First of all, we have a detoxification program, so that would be the one I would recommend. And then second, I am a huge habit stacker inside my sauna where, and my habits are all on the autonomic nervous system, parasympathetic state. So I like to go in, meditate, deep breathe, because I'm always running. Like I said, I'm always behind. Like I'm always going, going, going, going, going. I have two kids, a business.

Connie Zack [00:32:01]: And I want— that's my time to recharge and allow myself to help. Really, I'm looking at it as it's benefiting my nervous system. And there's a study, since we talked originally at the top of this about studies, there is a great study that I'd love to share about the improvement of your autonomic nervous system and taking the body from the sympathetic state to the parasympathetic state by using infrared, and as well as increasing the cardio— cardiac function. And it's a powerful study, and it was done a long time ago, and it was measured by evaluating all of the biomarkers of heart rate variability. So that, that's pretty powerful and great to know if you are one of those, you know, C-level people, C-level meaning like a CEO, you know, you're like CFO, like you're just, you have all this burden and all this weight where you're trying so hard to, you know, carry the company or whatever you're doing, or, you know, you're training for something, you know, you do need to recover and have time, you know, to have your body heal and reset.

Ben Greenfield [00:33:16]: But don't bring your phone in there. People call me from their saunas and I, I feel like I looked into this years ago and now I'm forgetting, and you might know this, the impact of a high-temperature environment, and you already clarified, like, it's not as high as a dry sauna, but it's a higher temperature, and EMF, like you having, know, radio frequencies or EMFs bouncing around inside the sauna combined with heat, Is that a bigger issue than at ambient temperatures, like normal temps?

Connie Zack [00:33:53]: So, as far as EMF, we, this is an area, gosh, we have studied and researched since the basement. And when I talk about the basement, that's when we started. It's just such a visual memory in my head, 'cause it was so stressful. We had no money. And it was like literally minute by minute, are we gonna be able to survive? But one of the very first things we did in the basement is make sure, at that time, we weren't manufacturing, we weren't in charge of our own destiny, you know, we were working with other companies, and we wanted to make sure that the wires, you know, were still coated at the time. That was the only really way you could do it to decrease any type of, you know, frequency that was delivered. So that's how we started. And then every year, especially when we start to innovate, and we went from having one type of heater to bringing the Solo Carbon Heaters to market, and that, whenever you make a change like that, then you have a risk.

Connie Zack [00:34:47]: With increased EMF. And so essentially, the bottom line is, to cut to the 2026 story, is we have twisted the wires. We now use DC versus AC. We have shielding. We have taken every single step so that our saunas, all of our saunas, are either nonexistent or virtually nothing in EMF. So you can feel completely safe. And, Furthermore, Ben, I do want to mention this because I know you're a big science and testing and proof guy. And we had a company come out, an independent company visit us right after COVID and test all the saunas with their, you know, their equipment.

Connie Zack [00:35:29]: And then we published the test. So it's not our testing, it's their testing.

Ben Greenfield [00:35:33]: Good. So you're not microwaving yourself, but also don't defeat the purpose and bring your phone in there. That's my advice.

Connie Zack [00:35:41]: Yeah, I think it's real, you know, back to the, the getting yourself, you know, the shoulders down and just the brain recharged. I mean, I, I, here's my, my narrative that I tell myself is, because typically I go in there and I start thinking and I'm like, okay, Connie, timeout. Like, that's what you do every other hour, every other minute. Like, just breathe. And relax, meditate. So a lot of times I'll just think through my, what are my intentions for the day? What do I want? How do I want this day to unfold? And I just start to think through like, how do I want to feel? How do I want, you know, to behave? What are the role— what's the role modeling I want to exhibit? Just all of those kinds of questions. And it just puts me in this beautiful state, and I am focusing on— I want this energy, I always call infrared energy medicine. I want this energy medicine to be able to penetrate and be absorbed and maximize its healing into my body so that when I'm finished, I can go out and, you know, and do all the things that I just thought about inside the sauna.

Connie Zack [00:36:54]: So I encourage leaving your phone out, anything that's going to be distracting, that's going to bounce back and you forth, know, to leave it out and just focus on the electrolytes, the minerals, the water. I have know, my, you my glass of mineralized water.

Ben Greenfield [00:37:12]: Yeah, yeah, it's your woman cave without the darkness. Okay, so how about that?

Connie Zack [00:37:18]: Yeah, it's all about the light, Ben, no darkness.

Ben Greenfield [00:37:21]: Why couldn't somebody listening in just, say, okay, well, I want the best of both worlds. I've got dry sauna. Could I get some kind of a red light setup that's able to resist high temperatures or whatever and just slap some red lights on the wall or the floor or the ceiling of my dry sauna?

Connie Zack [00:37:42]: I would say to that person, if you want to have a high-level heat, but you also want infrared, then there's nothing wrong with separating the two. I would not combine the two because when you do that, then you start to decrease the effectiveness of infrared. And infrared is such a specific energy wavelength with the way it interacts with your cells and your systems. You don't want to do anything that's going to compromise the integrity of that delivery system. So leave it alone. Let infrared do its thing. Either get, you know, the Impulse, which has all 4, but you don't have to. You can start with the Solo.

Connie Zack [00:38:27]: Solo's— I mean, oh my gosh, that's such a go-to product, which has far infrared. You can lie down in it, get the energy.

Ben Greenfield [00:38:33]: Yeah, you mean when you say the Solo, you mean one the that's like a tube that you slide into?

Connie Zack [00:38:38]: Yeah, it's a modular unit. That's the one. So that's the one that the core temperature study was done on that showed the increase in core temperature. It's also the one that UMKC, University of Missouri Kansas City, did a health benefit study with that product back in 2005 on all health benefits, and it showed a statistically significant reduction in blood pressure back. So when you say there's no science, there's tons of science. And this was done with that particular product. It is extremely effective, has again the highest quantity of infrared. It does not have near-infrared and red light, but that's okay.

Connie Zack [00:39:16]: If you want to get like the biggest bang for your buck and, and, you know, you want to separate things out, then just, you can buy everything in separate pieces and that's fine too. But I wouldn't, I wouldn't combine, I wouldn't lower the integrity of infrared by trying to combine it with high-level heat.

Ben Greenfield [00:39:34]: Yeah, if I was an overachiever, I'd have the study pulled up in front of me, but I think it was A guy who has a podcast about like methylene blue and light and stuff, Mike Bokowski, I use his toothbrush. It's like the BioLight toothbrush or something like that. And he interviewed someone who was speaking to the decrease in light absorption that occurs when you reach a certain temperature marker. And it was certainly below that 200 mark that a lot of dry saunas get up to, you know, typical dry sauna, you're looking at 170 to 230 on some of them, and that there's actually a correlation between decreased light absorption as temperature reaches a certain threshold and continues to go up.

Connie Zack [00:40:19]: Yeah, I completely believe that because we know there's other studies is it's not about intensity anymore. I mean, it used to be people would— it's all about intensity. It is not about intense heat. It's not about intensity with any really modality. It's about consistent use. So it's consistency beats intensity every day of the week. And consistent use and even shorter intervals is okay. You don't have to, to be in there for an hour and a half either.

Connie Zack [00:40:51]: So I do think there's a connection between intense heat counteracting the benefits of near-infrared and red light. And one of the reasons that our programs have done so well and the way we developed the programs back in, you know, 2008 was making sure that the heat aspect never got too hot. And cardio is the hottest program out of the 4 of them or 6 of them, but that's not even, you know, I don't think it even gets above At its height, it does not get above probably 145, maybe 150 degrees Fahrenheit.

Ben Greenfield [00:41:35]: Yeah, but with photobiomodulation, I know that it highly depends on the power.

Connie Zack [00:41:42]: The.

Ben Greenfield [00:41:42]: Distance from the device, et cetera. There is a law of diminishing returns in terms of reactive oxygen species production because you are turning up mitochondrial ATP production. I've seen values ranging from 15 minutes up to 35 minutes as far as the number of minutes not to exceed with light therapy. And again, I'm pretty sure that a lot of these observations were with panels and beds. I know you're a little farther when you're inside the sauna in most cases, but have you guys ever looked into the sweet spot or even created a message about how long becomes too long to spend in your sauna?

Connie Zack [00:42:23]: Yeah, it's a great question. And that's what we did when we developed Impulse the first time is we— it was all about the sweet spot. And that was what we took into consideration when we developed the 6 preset programs is what is the sweet spot? And so you'll notice that in when using different programs, as you know, there's cardio and detox and, you know, pain relief, relaxation, weight loss. That was the one I didn't mention before, weight loss. When using those, there's times if you're really paying attention, you can feel the intensity back off. And visually, you will also see the red light, which is connected, which also is connected to the near-infrared, but you can't see it because it's invisible. You'll see that turn off.

Ben Greenfield [00:43:15]: Oh yeah.

Connie Zack [00:43:16]: Because exactly what you're saying, there's a maximum, they're called joules of energy. You know, if you're sitting in front of a red light or near-infrared panel, your body can only absorb so much. And after that, it's a waste of time and money and, you know, energy. And that's what we work so diligently on. Years and years ago on the 6 programs. And that's the value of those programs. Now, back here in 2024, when we started, or maybe 2023, we started taking new studies because those are 6 programs. And then we started looking at sleep and muscle recovery and some other areas and looking specifically at the near-infrared and red light.

Connie Zack [00:44:04]: And so we developed programs at 3 different levels that, um, we have an app for that are connected to our red light therapy panel. So it is a panel of light that you can use in your home. And when you get the panel of light, it has a combination at the most powerful frequencies of near-infrared and red light. So if you want something separate, like you want to do the Solo and then you want the red light therapy panel with the near-infrared, you can separate it out. And then what's so awesome, I don't have my phone on me, but I could show you. I love it so much, our app. And you go in and in each program, there's 3 different levels. So for example, skincare, you know, I go and I do the advanced, but if you want, you can start off with beginner and then there's intermediate and then there's advanced.

Connie Zack [00:45:00]: And we have listed in there exactly the distance that you need to be from the panel.

Ben Greenfield [00:45:08]: Oh, cool.

Connie Zack [00:45:08]: So, you know, so I will sit there and I will mark off and measure, you know, I have my, in my bedroom, I have like a little, like, kind of, you know, when you have the, you stand on stage and have the star. So I have like a star that like tells me exactly where I need to be. And then you turn on the program and you stay there and you take the program and it tells you everything. Like it is, So easy. And what I love about that panel too is it's 10 minutes, right? I mean, it literally— that particular program that I use all the time is 10 minutes and you're done. so It's awesome.

Ben Greenfield [00:45:44]: That's cool. I didn't know you guys had that. That's super cool. And by the way, for those of you listening, I will link to all this stuff because we have discount codes and stuff for Sunlight. And if you go to bengreenfieldlife.com, /BenGreenfieldLife.com/SunlightenPodcast. BenGreenfieldLife.com/SunlightenPodcast. Okay, so this is a question I get that I feel like I should have thought about before I got these questions myself, but the detox component. So let's say you're sweating out heavy metals, for example, they got to go somewhere.

Ben Greenfield [00:46:20]: Like, should you be wiping down the sauna before you like sit back in your sweat or whatever particles are in the wood that get, I don't know, reabsorbed transdermally or something like that?

Connie Zack [00:46:33]: You should definitely put, we have at Sunlighten so many different materials and so many different covers and highly recommend that you put a, ideally it's like an infrared, you know, salient fiber on the bench so that it's super absorbent because you don't, you definitely don't want to, I can't imagine, you don't want to sit on the bench without protection. So, and then I always have a, just a small little Celliant face towel just to, cause that's where I am. I'm like sweating here and you know, and then like my gut and, and yeah, just towel off. I like to, to allow my body, because I typically sauna after I have exercised, and so I'm staying in an increased core temperature state. And the longer I do that, the better for my immune system and the better.

Ben Greenfield [00:47:30]: Studies for my mood. back that up, by the way. Like, it sucks, really sucks in a dry sauna, but getting hot or getting exposed to something that increases core temp Post-exercise results in an appreciable increase in erythropoietin, which is something your body makes, also something you may remember from the Lance Armstrong, Floyd Landis days as something they would illegally inject to get new red blood cells. But it is a pretty handy cardiovascular hack. And then, you know, you can go in there in the heat and eventually just kind of lay down for a few minutes to get back into a parasympathetic state. But actually going in the sauna and moving around a little bit post-workout is— it's a cool tool for cardiovascular athletes.

Connie Zack [00:48:17]: Yeah, I totally agree. And I mean, so I don't jump in. Sometimes people will jump in the shower right away. I wait a little bit because I just want that prolonged effect.

Ben Greenfield [00:48:30]: You mean the prolonged heat effect?

Connie Zack [00:48:33]: Yes.

Ben Greenfield [00:48:33]: Yeah. Yeah. So, when it comes to heavy metals, I think that one has been shown to be something that occurs, the detoxification of them in the sauna. But of course, as you know, everybody's talking about and, microplastics you know, Bryan Johnson, I know, as an n=1 showed decreased microplastics. I don't know if he was doing salivary or urine. I doubt he was doing blood. After a series of sauna treatments. Have you guys looked into that, or have you thought about doing some kind of an internal study or anything like that on microplastics?

Connie Zack [00:49:11]: I think it's important, compelling information to provide. I— we lean right now heavily on the BUS study. I don't know if you've seen that, but that's the blood, urine, sweat study that was done by Dr. Genius. And he did it because he wanted to find ways to protect women who, as they want, as they went on their journey to become pregnant with all of the toxins that are in the environment, he wanted to see like, how, how can we remove these toxins before they conceive? And this was a study that showed the power of infrared over exercise and traditional saunas. And it did there were a lot of, there were a lot of toxicants in that study that were removed by blood, urine, and sweat. But the thing that's most powerful on it is that even if you're testing your blood and you don't, like for example, in this study that they tested a blood with X number of people and showed no detectable levels of mercury, but then they took that same subset and tested their sweat. And such a large amount of people had mercury in their sweat.

Connie Zack [00:50:38]: And if they hadn't tested their sweat, they may have been thinking like, oh, I'm clean, I'm in the clear. So it's important that we look at our whole body. It's blood, it's urine, it's sweat. It's more complex if we really want to address this toxic overload that we are exposed to every single day. We're exposed to 700,000 chemicals. I mean, it's just— it's absolutely crazy.

Ben Greenfield [00:51:05]: Somebody needs to do a comprehensive infrared sauna microplastic study. I know— I don't know how it compares to blood, but there's a couple of different places that do salivary, like a home salivary microplastic test kit that I suppose folks could kind of use as an n 1, right? Like test, be really rigorous on your sauna practice for 30 days or whatever, and then test again. So, I think we need more data on the microplastics piece.

Connie Zack [00:51:32]: Yeah, I think it would be amazing.

Ben Greenfield [00:51:34]: Yeah. Yeah. So, you mentioned the Solo, which is the tube that you climb inside. The Impulse, the big one I have, I mean, I could squeeze 8 people in there. I think it's advertised like a 4 to 6 person. Uh, I like the big ones just because I can move around, which we've established. But what— walk people through just so they know what the options are for their home or office or clinic or whatever.

Connie Zack [00:52:01]: Yeah, so we'll start again with the Solo, which is the smallest. It's a 1-person lie-down, telescopic in nature, so lower dome fits into the, the upper dome. 67 pounds, Goes anywhere, super easy, plug and play. Then after that is the Signature Series, which is exactly like the Solo, same technology, far infrared, but in a wooden cabin. So if you want to share that experience with somebody else, the Signature Series is an excellent choice. And then about, I don't know, 5 or 6 years ago, we introduced this model called Amplify, and we introduced that for The individual that kind of similar to what you talked about earlier, that person that wants kind of what they think in their head is the best of both worlds. They want an intense heated environment, but they also want to get infrared. The Amplify has our still our patented quality far infrared, the highest quantity on the market, and then it combines it with amplification heaters that have full-spectrum heaters in front of them.

Connie Zack [00:53:06]: And when I say full-spectrum heaters, what I mean by that is you're getting the full infrared spectrum in one place. So that's what I mean by that. So you're getting— so when you're sitting there, if the heater is right here, you're feeling an amplified heat experience. It's going to feel hotter than if you didn't have it.. And, and thus the name Amplify. And so actually we just released what's called Amplify V2, where we changed— this is really cool— we changed the weave, the, um, in the heating, in the COVID of the heaters so that it, there's more irradiance, which is how you measure infrared. It's not about temperature. Everyone remember that it's not about temperature and it's not about when you get in.

Connie Zack [00:53:54]: It's about the quantity of infrared, the quality of infrared, and the irradiance. Because what you want is you want to get as much infrared into your body as possible. And that happens with quantity and lower temperature. So we just released that new version, which is fantastic. I mean, if somebody wants that intense feeling of like, oh my God, this is really hot, and they still want the benefits and the experience of infrared, Amplify is a Perfect option for them. And then Impulse, which is what you have, it's what I have. It's, I mean, I love it so much because you get something you can't get anywhere else. You can't get the entire infrared spectrum at the highest frequency, highest quantity separately, yet the ability to combine the wavelengths in those 6 preset programs.

Connie Zack [00:54:48]: Or the other thing we didn't talk about, Ben, in the programs is There is one more. You strike me as probably somebody who's pressed this button in your sauna. There is one more program, which is the custom. And in the custom, you can go in there and do it. You know, you have the option to set the heaters and set it out, you know, however you want.

Ben Greenfield [00:55:07]: Right, right. Just a full-on red light session. There you go.

Connie Zack [00:55:09]: Yeah, that's right. You can do whatever you want. It becomes your oasis. This is my program. This is the Ben Greenfeld custom program.

Ben Greenfield [00:55:17]: This is the drink your methylene blue smoothie and go do jumping jacks with 100% red light function. Well, if you guys want to see what these things look like, go to bengreenfieldlife.com/sunlightenpodcast, where you can also leave your questions, your comments, your feedback for Connie or I. And these are cool saunas. No, they're— well, they're not cool. They're not super, super scalding hot either. They're perfect as we've established. So, Connie, thanks so much for doing this.

Connie Zack [00:55:48]: Oh, thanks so much for having me. It's so great to see you. And I mean, you look like amazing as always. And you're so knowledgeable. I love what you said.

Ben Greenfield [00:55:57]: Snowboarding all day yesterday. I will be in the pain sauna later on.

Connie Zack [00:56:01]: There you go. Yeah, it decreases inflammation. Both the far infrared and the red light and near infrared. And also we'll put this, I'm sure, in the show notes, but Make sure if anybody who's listening, they want more information about sunlight and saunas, and they, you know, they may decide to flip the switch and get one in your home. You're going to save a significant amount of money. But the key is to unlock that discount is you have to mention this podcast. You have to mention Ben Greenfield.

Ben Greenfield [00:56:32]: Those of you who made it to the end, congratulations. What? I said for those of you who made it to the end, congratulations.

Connie Zack [00:56:38]: Yes. Congratulations. You are now eligible to. Get a significant discount as well as free shipping. Cool. So just mention Ben Greenfield.

Ben Greenfield [00:56:48]: Awesome. Well, Connie, thank you. And folks, thank you for listening in. Go hunt down some light temperature combo. If you haven't added that to your life, you're missing out. Till next time, I'm Ben Greenfield along with Connie Zack from Sunlighten Saunas signing out. Have an incredible week. To discover even more tips, tricks, hacks, and content to become the most complete boundless version of you, visit BenGreenfieldLife.com.

Ben Greenfield [00:57:23]: In compliance with the FTC guidelines, please assume the following about links and posts on this site. Most of the links going to products are often affiliate links of which I receive a small commission from from sales of certain items, but the price is the same for you. And sometimes I even get to share a unique and somewhat significant discount with you. In some cases, I might also be an investor in a company I mention. I'm the founder, for example, of Kion LLC, the makers of Kion-branded supplements and products, which I talk about quite a bit. Regardless of the relationship, if I post or talk about an affiliate link to a product, it is indeed something I personally use, support, support and with full authenticity and transparency recommend in good conscience. I personally vet each and every product that I talk about. My first priority is providing valuable information and resources to you that help you positively optimize your mind, body, and spirit, and I'll only ever link to products or resources, affiliate or otherwise, that fit within this purpose.

Ben Greenfield [00:58:23]: So, there's your fancy legal disclaimer.