September 14, 2019
[00:00:46] Podcast Sponsors
[00:03:51] Guest Introduction
[00:07:25] Interesting Biohacks Prior to The Podcast
[00:24:20] What Nutrigenomics Is
[00:30:24] Vegetarian Genes
[00:35:16] Podcast Sponsors
[00:38:07] Ketogenic Genes
[00:47:28] How Wade's Genetics Influenced His Current Diet
[00:53:21] The Biochemistry of Kapex
[01:09:08] Specific Uses and Applications of Kapex
[01:17:31] Planned Biohacks After the Podcast
[01:24:09] End of Podcast
Ben: On this episode of the Ben Greenfield Fitness Podcast.
Matt: We're changing the paradigm on what's possible because most people, they just get old, they start falling apart the last 10, 15 years, and then they die.
Wade: Let's not completely discount lifestyle or environment on what's happening to a person and solely base everything on genetics. We're able to challenge each other or do different experiences as opposed to living in some kind of echo chamber where we only do one thing.
Ben: Health, performance, nutrition, longevity, ancestral living, biohacking, and much more. My name is Ben Greenfield. Welcome to the show.
Well, howdy doody oh? Today, I'm actually chatting with a couple of my so-called biohacker friends, Matt Gallant and Wade Lightheart. Both of these guys have been on my show before. Both of them were incredibly popular and full of knowledge bombs. They deliver in this episode as well, which is actually brought to you by BiOptimizers, their company, which you'll learn a lot more about in today's show.
Today's show is also brought to you by my company, Kion, my little playground for all things health and wellness. It's the company that I created to scratch my own itch, to blend ancient wisdom with modern science. And one of the cool formulas we have over there is something I actually take before any meal that contains carbohydrates or alcohol. It's a blend of rock lotus extract, and then also bitter melon extract. So, it helps to regulate glucose metabolism and maintain insulin sensitivity, but then it also really helps the way that fats are handled by your liver, and it activates several metabolic pathways that are important to anti-aging. So, it's called Kion Lean, and you just take two before carbohydrate-containing meals. Today, we'd talk a lot about what's steak before fat-containing meals, but Kion Lean would be the one to pop before you have carbs, and it also works really well before alcohol. You get a 10% discount on this stuff. You just go to getkion.com and use code BGF10.
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Hey, folks. So, my guests on today's show are coming back for a three-peat, which means they must be good, or they must be controversial, or at least mildly interesting. These cats first appeared in an episode with me about probiotic enemas, digestive enzymes, breathwork, low protein diets, and a whole bunch more, especially in the realm of nutrition. I'll of course link to that in the shownotes for this episode, which I'll reveal to you shortly. But then they appeared again on an episode entitled “How I've Been Able to Gorge On Delicious Gluten Filled Foods Without Feeling Like I Swallowed a Pair of Motor-Powered Scissors Tearing Up My Intestines.” That episode was also pretty interesting, and in that one, as the name alludes to, we took a pretty deep dive into all things gluten and gliadin and how to control a lot of the damage generated by gluten-filled foods.
So, these guys are a ton of fun to talk to. They're fellow biohackers, nutrition enthusiasts, fitness freaks, whatever you want to call them. They are Matt Gallant and Wade Lightheart. So, Matt is a friend of mine. He's an entrepreneur. He's an ex-rock guitarist, poker champion, and a serial entrepreneur. He's built 13 companies in the last 20 years. He's also a strength conditioning coach. He has a degree in kinesiology and he is the CEO and co-founder of a nutrition supplements company called BiOptimizers.
And then Wade, his partner in crime, is the host of the awesome health podcast. He's a three-time all-natural national bodybuilding champion and, as I recollect from our previous discussions on other episodes, is primarily doing that on a plant-based diet. He's also the adviser to the American Anti-Cancer Institute or an advisor to the American Anti-Cancer Institute, and he's the co-founder of BiOptimizers. He's also got some books that he's written like “Staying Alive in a Toxic World” and “The Wealthy Backpacker.” And I'll link to all of that in the shownotes as well.
So, why I wanted to get these guys back on the show is because Matt pinged me a few months ago and told me they'd been taking a pretty deep dive into nutrigenomics, into ketosis, into amplifying the ability to be able to digest fats and fix a lot of common mistakes, especially with people who are following like a low-carb, a high-fat, or a ketogenic diet. And so they've been deep in the batman caves at BiOptimizers looking into a whole bunch of new things that I wanted to talk about on today's show.
So, before we jump in, all the notes, everything we'd talk about you can find at BenGreenfieldFitness.com/upgradeketo. That's BenGreenfieldFitness.com/upgradeketo because we're going to be telling you about how to upgrade keto and a whole lot more.
So, Wade, Matt, welcome to the show, fellas.
Matt: Super excited to be here.
Wade: Yeah. Great to be here.
Ben: Yeah. Word. And as usual, I know you guys are always doing all sorts of weird things. So, I figured just right off the bat, I'd get this out of the way and ask you what you've been up to today, whether it'd be workout, or some crazy biohack, or nutrition tactic, or whatever else that you think might be mildly interesting to folks that you've been engaged in prior to hopping on the show with me.
Matt: Wade, you want to go first?
Wade: Sure. Well, this morning, I just broke a three-day water fast. So, I'm in a reduction program. One of the things I like to do is build up to fasting and pushing one of our products that were just testing some of the parameters inside of it. So, yeah, I just broke that this morning for three days and did my–and the thing was is during the fast, I still maintain my regular workouts in longer sessions on a rebounder. I jump on a rebounder every day to pump lymphatic fluid, particularly. I think it's really good for that without impact. And so I combine those two things —
Ben: Hold on. I got to interrupt you, man. Aren't you concerned about all the bodybuilders and athletes listening in right now snickering that you're talking about being able to work out in a fasted state but your workout is on a rebounder?
Wade: Well, that's one of them, but that was one–that's my workouts in the morning but I do a weight training. So, yesterday, I was doing a full-body workout. I'm doing a combination of strength and density where I'm hitting my legs, or each body part three times a week, one in a high-rep, high-time under tension routine, which is what I was doing yesterday, which is the whole body and targeted groups each and every day and the other three sessions, and then stacking that on long slow walks and intermittent with rebounding sessions in between. That's what I'm playing around with right now to see how far I can accelerate weight loss without compromising my metabolism.
Ben: Yeah, yeah. So, Wade, when you say you're doing those workouts on a three-day fast, is this like a dry fast, water fast? Are you incorporating any of these things that some people were doing a fast like exogenous ketones or aminos or anything like that?
Wade: Yeah. It's a pure water fast. And then the last day when you're kind of–because usually, I find that if we don't see a metabolic shutdown for the first two days, you're still pretty good, but that third day gets tough. And what I typically do is I'll cut water, go for a really long–it's about a four-hour walk that I do. And then I go right into the steam room in a dehydrated state to force my body to convert fat into water. The resident weight loss usually on that three days is around 10 pounds, which is a considered amount of water rate.
Now, when I do get out of the sauna and come home, I'm kind of fried, like I'm in a pretty dehydrated state. So, then I'll add some electrolytes and amino acids and things like that in my drink. So, I'm kind of breaking the fast that last day just so I don't screw myself up too badly from the dry fasting. But I really do practice pushing the limit and getting my body temperature up. And what's nice about that is I notice my body temperature stays warm. If I extend the fast oftentimes, your body temperature starts down, and that's usually an indication that you're getting into metabolic slowdown. But I woke up this morning and I was still cooking. And then now, then just broke my fast after that because I wanted to be relatively sharp for our call today.
Ben: No. Is this because you're prepping for a show and you're making weight, or why exactly are you doing something this extreme like combining all that with a three-day fast?
Wade: It's just one of these fun weird things I like to do.
Ben: Most people wouldn't put that in the fun category, dude.
Wade: Yeah. One of the things that–I think my background was a bodybuilder. That's where I got started in this whole thing. And I think bodybuilders in a lot of parts were the original biohackers. In other words, they just would test things and experiment, and there wasn't a lot of research supporting it. They would go experientially and see what's going on. And then now, because the tools are so readily available in platforms such as what you're offering allows people to access research and then make better decisions and choices. And this just happens to be something I'm doing right now. I am looking to get my bodyweight down because I let it get up a little high with a lot of travel and not being on my diet the way I normally am. And so it's like, “Okay. Let's cut a little bit of weight and get down closer to a more contest condition,” although I haven't competed in years. Just to play around with it.
Ben: Yeah. I know we're rabbit holing a lot, but I have one other question for you about this protocol. With these weight training routines that you're doing specifically in the fasted state, are you finding a certain velocity in terms of your weight training speed or a certain number of reps and sets that you're unable to hit in that fasted state?
Wade: I would say on a 10 rep exercise, and so I'm running anywhere from three to five in the sequence all the way up to like 200 rep push-ups in a–so I would say on my endurance-based ones, I don't see that much, but as I get down below 10, I definitely see a drop-off in force parameters by about–if I normally can do five reps, I would be down to maybe three. And if I normally can do 10, it would be eight. So, the higher up the threshold goes, the bigger the drop-off is.
Ben: Yeah. I've primarily found for any of my weight training workouts in a fasted state, my primary deficits lie in anything that becomes mildly glycolytic. So, the time under tension component, meaning like if I'm doing anything that exceeds my ability to be able to burn creatine and begins to dip into glucose, which tends to be a little bit depleted in a fasted state, my performance suffers. So, any weight training set that exceeds about 30 seconds or any high-intensity interval training length that exceeds about 30 seconds, that's where I really start to drop off if I'm in a fasted state.
And that seems to be pretty consistent with some of the research that's been done on, say like, CrossFitters and powerlifters and weight lifters who are working in a fasted state. For a typical CrossFit workout, if it's something like a snatch ladder, for example, where it's really, really quick powerful efforts that could arguably rely upon creatine, then there's not that big of a deficit. But as soon as you get into, say, like a 750-meter row or something like that, that's where you really start to see issues pop up as far as performance is concerned?
Wade: Yeah, absolutely.
Ben: Yeah. How about you, Matt? What crazy things have you been up to?
Matt: Alright. So, again, more of a psychological mental process to get ready for the call. First, I microdose Vyvanse, which is a drug. So, make sure you get a prescription. Very powerful. For me, it works better than–I've never done Adderall or Ritalin because I don't like the potential consequences. Modafinil, for me genetically, is a no-go. It says it right in my genetic test. So, Vyvanse but 10 milligrams. You get like these 40-milligram capsules to 10 milligrams of that, and that just sharpens the brain.
Ben: Is Vyvanse like Adderall, or what exactly is it?
Matt: It's in that zone. It's not as addictive. I'll do it maybe like once a month. I know this was a big call, so I wanted to get as ready as I could. Yeah, you can google this, V-Y-V-A-N-C-E. And then a couple —
Ben: So, it's basically like an amphetamine?
Matt: It's in that family, yeah.
Ben: Interesting. But you don't get jittery or you have like nausea and those kinds of side effects with it?
Matt: No, no. I'm doing a quarter–I wouldn't do a full one. I know people that have and they said they were just flying. I can just imagine. So, again, the poison is always the dose, right, with everything that we do. And then a couple sticks of Lucy gum. So, thanks for that.
Ben: Oh yeah, yeah.
Matt: I'm a fan.
Ben: The nicotine gum. That's got slightly lower levels of artificial sweeteners and crap in it than a lot of other gums. From what I understand with Lucy, it's more of like a slow-release formula. It's designed to chew for a little while then tip into the–or tuck into the pouch of your gums or your cheeks and hold there for a little while almost like a tobacco chew and then you chew in a little bit more.
Matt: Mm-hmm. And then being the main guy in charge of formulating products, I'm trying this new Shen(ph) blend of Asian herbs that's going to be just part of a new product that we're going to release probably in December. We'll probably come back to talk about that. But we're really working on the brain below aka the producing neurotransmitters from the gut. And it's a very powerful blend that you literally feel almost like more light in my brain and a sense of calmness. So, when I do stack stimulants, I like to stack things that will also balance my nervous system. So, things like either lavender oil, L-theanine, or this Shen blend is doing a great job. When I do the two together, I feel both very sharp, at the same time a little bit relaxed, which is really an ideal state to be in in my opinion.
Ben: Cool. Nice. So, you're on Adderall and nicotine and —
Matt: Not at all. Let's be clear, Vyvanse.
Ben: And weight hasn't even. So, this should be an interesting show. I guess I should go real quick too just so I can try to one-up you, guys. I did a blood draw this morning. I do a quarterly huge blood draw. So, I went down to the LabCorp and gave about 19 tubes of blood. And then on my way home, I decided I wanted to go swimming. So, I dropped into the YMCA because I have a triathlon. I'm competing in this weekend. They just refilled the pool. And so they told me, “The pool, by the way, is at 68 degrees.” I'm like, “Oh, that's chilly but it's doable.” So, I got in there and I swam for like a half-hour. I'm still goose bumping. My wife just asked me why my lips were blue. So, I've gotten my cold thermogenesis in. I also tried to get my brain ready for today's show, Matt, so I did peptides. I've been experimenting with a new peptide stack for things like neurogenesis and neuroplasticity. And it's actually–
Matt: Which peptides are you on?
Ben: So, it's a very–
Matt: Because I'm totally passionate and I've been going crazy on SARMs, peptides, and hormones last two, three months. Which peptides are you on for the brain?
Ben: It's a very good stack. And if you go to peptidesociety.org, there's some docs you could find who prescribe–and I have a guy who gets me this stuff from Tailor Made Compounding, but it's topical Dihexa. So, you apply this on the carotid artery on either side of the neck, and that's combined with a subcutaneous injection in the abdomen of Cmax, Pinealon, and Cortagen, along with one spray of intranasal Cmax. So, it's both Cmax subcutaneously, and then also intranasally. And that stack is just out of sight when it comes to really good, clean, non-jittery energy. And a lot of the research on these peptides show that basis with memory formation, especially this Pinealon, Cortagen compound, and then also learning, consolidation, and then also of course just like neuroplasticity, neurogenesis, and a significant decrease in brain inflammation. And then if you're really low on sleep, you combine that with BPC 157, which also that's a really good job for neural inflammation.
So, I've got my cold-water swim, my peptides. And the last thing I'm doing right now is I'm messing around with all these different grounding and earthing mats and patches because I got this guy I'm interviewing named Clint Ober who's like a grounding, earthing expert and he sent me all these products to test out. So, right now, I've got a patch attached to both of my feet, and there's a cable extending from the patch out my office door, and then it's attached to a grounding rod outside in the grass. So, basically, I've got double grounding going on on both feet right now, which is supposed to do a pretty good job at decreasing inflammation. But I'm going to find out from the results of this blood draw that I did because I've been doing this for the past week and I want to see if it dipped any inflammatory markers at all. So, between the three of us, we probably sound to most folks like we have way too much time on our hands and we're a bunch of bored middle-aged men with too much money to spend on crazy hacking devices.
Matt: Well, you know what, we're the pioneers that are going to take the arrows for everyone else at the end of the day.
Ben: That's right. Trying to paint this honorably.
Matt: Yeah. Well, hey listen, I mean, when we get old and we age, we have an option. The choice is, are you going to fight aging and even prevent–I mean of course, our skin ages and a lot of our systems age, but for example, muscle mass, a lot of our brain, different parts of our brain, we can reverse aging and a lot of these components using things like peptide, of course, exercise, neurofeedback. So, that's what we're all about, and that's why we're friends, and that's why Wade and I are partners, and I think we're doing the world–we're changing the paradigm on what's possible because most people, they just get old, they start falling apart the last 10, 15 years, and then they die.
I saw it firsthand. My grandfather lived–my dad built an apartment for my grandfather, so I got a chance to see him live his last 10 years of his life. He got hit by a car. But 10 years before he passed, he had a very hard time walking, and then I just saw him get on all these different medications and drugs, and literally, he just wanted to die. And that was very impactful. And Wade, I don't know if you want to share your sister's story that I know impacted Wade dramatically as well.
Wade: Yeah. My sister, almost four years my senior, got cancer when I was 15 years old. And I watched a little over the four years of her go through the medical model of decline until she died at 22. That set me on a direction of going–well, two things tragic as that is the upside of it was there's always an upside to every tragic thing. I think it's important for people to recognize not to wallow in tragedy, was that life isn't a guarantee and your health isn't a guarantee. She was a great athlete. And the funny part about that is we make an assumption if you're a great athlete that you're going to live a long time. The evidence doesn't support that.
And the other thing is that we all think that we're going to live a lot longer, a lot stronger than we actually are. So, there's a couple of normalcy biases that we just assume and smashing through those. And for me, it was an interruption early in life that set me on this pathway. And for Matt, it was later on as he looked into the future and saw what aging looked like. And so from those two perspectives, we combined different paradigms. And of course we have–lots of times, we have what some people would appear to be conflictive philosophies, Matt and I, and I think that's a good thing as building a company so that we're able to challenge each other or do different experiences as opposed to living in some kind of echo chamber where we only do one thing.
Ben: Yeah, yeah. That makes sense. I know you guys are–you're looking into a lot of things, especially as owners of a supplement company, and also folks who are as passionate about this kind of stuff as myself. And I would love to segue into the topic at hand, which is this idea of nutrigenomics and ketosis particularly. I know it's something we're going to really dive into, but Matt, when you mentioned to me that you really had been doing a lot in the realm of nutrigenomics and looking into diet personalization and some of the genetic influences on diet, what exactly were you referring to? Can you fill the listeners in on what it is you guys have been looking at?
Matt: Yeah. So, here's, in my opinion, the seven main keys to biologically optimize your diet. Number one, which I think is always key to hold in front of us, is sustainability. That's more of a psychological thing. In other words, Wade, for an example, he has his spiritual reasons for doing vegetarianism and that's what works for him. So, that supersedes any other variables, and that's really important. We all have our psychological limitations. So, sustainability I think is number one. There's also physical sustainability that's part of that. Two is lifestyle. Three is genetics, which we're going to get deep into. Four is looking at allergies, food sensitivities. Five is gut biome. Six is biofeedback. And seven is your goals.
So, I think you got to look at all seven of these different variables to really dial in your diet, your nutrition plan, your strategy to hit all of these different variables. So, in other words, is this sustainable? Does it match my lifestyle? Does it match my genetics? Am I obviously eliminating foods that I'm allergic to or have sensitivities to? Is it food that's aligned with my gut biome? Looking at your biofeedback and obviously bloodwork and seeing okay. Am I heading the wrong direction? Do I have some issues that I should correct? And then, of course, is your goal muscle building? Is it fat loss? Is it athletic performance? Is it mental performance? Is it anti-aging? And really, at BiOptimizers, we feel that all things fall into three categories. It's either aesthetic goals, it's either performance, mental or physical, or it's health, which you could say things like aging and things like that or anti-aging are part of that. That's how we look at the diet from a very high-level perspective.
Ben: Okay. And from what I understand, what you're saying is that third component that you were just referring to amongst those seven, genetics is the one that you've been focused on most intensively?
Matt: Yeah. Again, we've been going really deep. So, let's just start from a macro perspective and look at–let's rewind, let's take a time machine and go back 10,000, 20,000 years ago. And people that were Northern European, Caucasians–obviously, there was very hard winters and for people with that genetic background, kill typically makes a lot of sense because in the wintertime–and again I'm from Canada, very hard winters, I could easily imagine what that was like. Just flattening an animal to kill I'm sure was a tough experience and a tough journey. Obviously, there's no fruits, there's no vegetation. So, your body had to adapt to a keto-based diet.
And one of the key things to understand is how epigenetics get passed on generation to generation to generation. They did that experiment with worms about a year and a half, two years ago. And these worms, they found that epigenetics got passed on 18 generations. So, literally, what you're doing is going to get passed on to your grand, grand, grandchildren. So, all the good stuff that you're doing, Ben, is going to create some really good genetics down the line. So, that is very important to understand. Obviously, also, we know that most of the mitochondria comes from our mom. That's another variable to look at. So, even just looking at what your grandfather did, how your grandfather ate, your grand, grandfather, all of those things are things that will give us some clues.
Now, I live in Panama, right? And in Panama, we're much closer to the equator. And there's an abundance of fruits all year long, right? There's banana trees, mango trees. You could live on the streets in Panama like you could live in total poverty not starve because there's always an abundance of fruit somewhere. So, people here, genetically, again I'm just generalizing, but they tend to be able to eat more carbs and respond better. And obviously then, there's Mediterranean genetics, which also has an abundance of food. We'll dive deep into different genes in a minute, but I just wanted to give the big picture that fat intake increases. The further up you go, and then plant intake increases, the closer you get to the equator.
Ben: Meaning that the human body tends to biochemically respond more favorably to carbohydrate-dense foods when it's located closer to the equator or exposed to plenty of sunshine, whereas there are more favorable adaptations to higher amounts of fat and/or omega-3s and DHA in colder climates?
Matt: Well, I'm talking about genetically, right? So, I still have my Caucasian genetics, right? So, keto still is the best diet plan for me, personally. But I'm just talking about people that again have more African genetics or that have been–genes that have been closer to the equator historically, and you can see that in your 23andMe, typically don't do better with plants than they will on keto. And then again, people that have Northern European genetics tend to do better on keto. So, again, I'm just generalizing, but it's an important macro perspective to start out I think.
Ben: Yeah. Although not to get into the weeds too much, I would say that when you say someone could do better on plants than on keto, I think I would push back a little bit and say that one could eat a relatively plant-rich diet and still be in a ketogenic state. But when you're talking about the inclusion of plants for folks who live closer to the equator, you're probably talking about a lot of these vitamin C, more sugary, citrusy fruits, and some of the type of plants and produce that might not actually be that friendly to staying in a consistent ketogenic state.
Matt: Yeah. So, if you want, we can really start nerding out here on some genes. So, I guess I'll start with the vegetarian genes speaking of plants. One of the carb digesting genetics is called the AMY1, so A-M-Y-1. And basically, it's a gene that obviously influences amylase, which obviously, BiOptimizers were all about enzymes. And digestion begins in the mouth. As we start digesting food, our brain recognizes, “Okay. This is a carb. Let me produce amylase.” So, it's very important long term that your body can produce amylase. And obviously, you can take amylase with enzymes which we sell.
So, that is one gene. Another one is lactase genetics. So, there's LCT, MCM6, which are involved in lactase breakdown. So, again, some people obviously that have lactose problems probably don't have these genes. Then there's the FUT and SHBG genes, which as far as fiber in the diet and B12 certainly affect that. Then there's also the FADS1 gene, which is a really big one because we're talking about being able to biosynthesize omega-3s and omega-6s from polyunsaturated fatty acids. So, in terms of being able to get the fatty acids from plants and be able to synthesize them, that is a really important gene for vegetarians to look at.
Then we can look at BCML1, which is polymorphisms, and BCMO1 gene, PEMT activity, especially for women. So, that's more of a choline genetic. So, people, especially women pre-menopause or menopause or vegetarians, are especially in need of choline with falling estrogen levels. So, if you look at the MTHFR genes and other things, it can make things worse. So, those are all different genes to look at for vegetarians. Now, if we shift over to keto–
Ben: And just to interrupt real quick, what you're saying is that for those specific genetic parameters–and do let me know if you have those written down somewhere or if you'd be able to send them to me so I could put them in the shownotes for people who want to, say, pull up their 23andMe results and look at each of these genes. But what you're saying is that the appropriateness of whether or not someone might thrive on a plant-based diet is going to be dictated by some of these genes that might, say, allow you to generate more DHA from plant-based fats or allow you to more readily digest some of the starches and sugars that tend to be more predominant in a plant-based diet. And so you could actually look and see, “Okay. I'm considering a plant-based diet, but genetically, I may or may not be adapted to that based on these specific–I think you named what, five there?”
Matt: Yeah. So, what I'm saying is that–and let's stop saying that again. Let's say for spiritual reasons or whatever reason you want to do vegetarianism. And you might not have the genes. You can obviously still hack it. But if you're aware that, for an example, you might not have the FADS1 gene, then you might need to be more mindful and have a strategy around your omega-3s and omega-6s. And I know, Wade, for an example, one of the things that he's always mindful of is which fat sources he's using.
So, I think that's a big one. And again, it does not say you can or cannot do keto or vegetarianism. For the record, I'm keto, which we're going to get into in a sec. But looking at these genes and then saying, “Okay, I don't have the gene to break down lactose,” then I can take lactase. So, I don't have the AV1 gene, so let me take amylase. So, again, we could hack things with supplements and other ways, which I think if you're aware of and you solve, then you're going to prevent problems. If you're not aware and you do something that's perhaps damaging your body for a very long period of time, then it can lead to health issues. So, I think that's a big parameter to look at. And then for people that are diet agnostic, which really I am–I mean, I don't really care what I do as long as it works. I'm a pragmatist at heart. Then looking at these things and saying, “Okay, this is the best diet for me,” that's what I go with.
Ben: Hey, I want to interrupt today's show to tell you about one thing that is going to allow you to fall asleep for an afternoon nap and not wake up groggy, to settle you down at the end of the day when you want a nice tea to sip on that kicks the butt of chamomile or valerian or anything else, any of these other purported relaxation teas that you drink and they don't work and you lay there with your eyes bugging out your head, staring awake at the ceiling at night. Not this stuff. It's an adaptogenic mushroom. It's called reishi, R-E-I-S-H-I, reishi.
And what my friends at Four Sigmatic have done is created this into a super tasty elixir. They make a lot of stuff like these, lion's mane, they've got Cordyceps, they've got coffee with all sorts of mushrooms in it. But this reishi, I literally will dump two packets of it into my mouth many times before I settle down for an afternoon nap, and it just does a great job shutting down your system, but you don't get that post-nap grogginess or that post-sleep grogginess that like a hefty huge dose of CBD or something like that might give you. So, try out this reishi or anything from Four Sigmatic for that matter. You get a 15% discount. You go to foursigmatic.com/bengreenfield. That's F-O-U-Rsigmatic.com/bengreenfield. And the code that you can use over there is BENGREENFIELD.
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Okay. So, when you're talking about some of these genes, are there actually any large scale human studies that have taken a group and said, “Okay, here are your genes that dictate your amylase production, your lactose sensitivities, your ability to be able to generate usable fats from plant-based sources like seeds and nuts,” and then place those people on a plant-based diet and analyze whether or not the response was favorable compared to a non-plant-based diet, or a carnivore diet, or a keto diet, or anything like that? Because the reason I ask this is I know, for example, DNAFit collected–I believe it was 16 different genetic polymorphisms related to exercise response. And they indeed did have a group trained according to whether or not they appeared based on those polymorphisms to be better adapted to endurance versus better adapted to power. And they found that when folks trained according to their genetic polymorphisms, they saw a faster, more efficient fitness response. But have they done the same thing yet with some of these genes you're talking about with food?
Matt: We think a lot of them they haven't, but that's a great question to segue into the keto genes. One study they did was with the Eskimos and the Inuits, which they found this one gene called CPT1A, which is an arctic mutation for fatty oxidation. And we're going to go really deep into fatty acid oxidation today because that is really the key to keto in my opinion. But they found this gene found in the liver and kidney is responsible for ketogenesis and it's the key regulator for importing, launching fatty acids into the mitochondria to help maintain energy, normal blood sugar levels when carbohydrate intake is low, which by the way, we have completely hacked with kApex. So, even if you don't have that gene, we've got the answer, which we'll get into.
Ben: Yeah. When you say kApex, that's not a gene, that's an actual product that you guys are working and developing to enhance people's ability to be able to get into ketosis?
Matt: Yeah. It's released and it literally does pretty much the exact same thing as this gene does.
Ben: Alright, let's talk more about that later. So, back to these ketogenic genes.
Matt: Yeah. So, this CPT1A increases the heat in the body to stay warm in a cold climate by directly [00:40:33] ______ free fatty acids away from the liver cells to brown fat and a greater capacity for gluconeogenesis. So, basically, you just perform better on low carbs with this gene. And that's again, there was an Eskimo-Inuit study. So, that is one example. And they looked at–so 81% of Canadians, and 54% of Greenland Inuits, and 68% of Northeastern Siberian population have the variants of the CPT1A gene. And yeah, so that's a really good one to look at for keto. Now, to answer your question, I think the answer is no for the most part. So, again, we're still in the realm of theories and opinions. But I think the realm of nutrigenomics is definitely one of the most exciting fields to look at, and I think there's going to be a lot of data coming out in the next five to ten years.
So, moving on to more keto genes, FAD1 and FAD2. So, if you look at the analysis of ancient DNA revealed that prior to human farming, the animal-based diets of European hunter-gatherers predominantly favored the opposite version of the same gene, which limits the activity of FAD1 enzyme. It's better suited for people on meat and seafood diet. So, the FAD1 and FAD2 inability to convert plant omega-3 fatty acids to EPA and DHA, showing another pathway that is enabling high intake of animal-based omega-3s. So, again, if you have these genes, you're just going to be able to eat more animal fats and fish fats and perform better.
Ben: Eat more animal fats and fish fats than someone who might not be able to assimilate those as well?
Matt: If you don't have the right genes, then you might struggle.
Ben: Now, if someone does not have the correct genes to assimilate animal fats, does that dictate that those animal fats are going to be inflammatory atherosclerotic for them, or that they simply would not produce as much, say, bioabsorbable DHA from the consumption of fish?
Matt: It's a good question, but again, kApex is the answer because–or part of the answer because we have the lipase that help digest that and then break that down to small fatty acids and transport them into the mitochondria, into the liver, and then burn them up. So, yes, I mean, there'd probably be more issues, but again it is hackable in my opinion.
Ben: Okay. So, I think I see where you're going here. What you're saying is some people would struggle on a ketogenic or a low-carbohydrate diet based on genetic factors, and that what you're proposing is that those could somehow be hacked by doing things like upregulating lipase availability, amylase availability, et cetera, through the use of targeted supplementation?
Ben: Okay. Got it. So, you feel crappy on a ketogenic diet. It turns out that part of that is because you aren't genetically adapted or it might not be the most genetically favorable thing for you to consume. You still want the benefits of it, so then you use better living through science and start to put some things in your body to allow you to digest and assimilate fats in a manner that allows you to eat like a low-carb, high-fat diet?
Matt: Now, let's keep going here. So, there's saturated fat intake genetics. So, there's ADRB2, which plays a role in energy balance and metabolism, and it's considered the thrifty gene because it makes your body more efficient using as few calories as possible. So, people that have a hard time getting really lean probably have this gene. In other words, the diet starts and they lose fat, they start getting, but then their body adapts and then they really struggle to lose that last 10, 20 pounds of body fat. That just means that they're probably very efficient, which going back tens of thousands of years ago was probably a great thing if you were going to starve for a very long period of time and be walking looking for food. That adaptation kept us alive, but right now, unfortunately, we don't need it but a lot of us still have that.
Another one is ApoE2, that's eat fat, get fat gene, the satiation gene. So, this enzyme regulates appetite. So, again, there's–and I could get even more nerdy, but I'm going to keep it here because we could talk about all the variants. There's the FTO3, the gene which is called the hungry gene has to do with regrowing. So, the FTO gene impacts your overall body fat depending on how much fat you eat, especially saturated fat. There's the LPL gene, which helps modulate whether saturated fats are stored as body fat or burned as fuel and plays a role in how saturated fats are broken down for energy. There's the APOC3 gene. So, this gene is important in regulating blood triglyceride levels, as well as LDL, which is the more dangerous type. So, again, people that have cholesterol issues properly look at that.
And just to shift over–and again, I could keep going. There's a bunch of them. But there's also fasting genes, which is really interesting because a friend of mine here in Panama is a keto coach. And when he fast, he gets the opposite response that I do. His HRV drops. His heartbeat goes up. So, for him, it's a stressor. And obviously, I think that's a genetic thing. For some people, maybe it's psychological. But for me, when I fast, I'll fast for like 60 hours a week on top of just eating one meal a day most of the time, and my HRV always improves, like all my biofeedback says, “Yeah, our body is very happy doing that.”
So, that is a big one. They call it the PPAR alpha gene or the coastal adaptation gene. So, if we go back to again the Mediterranean atmosphere, there was a lot of berries, blueberries, mulberries, cranberries, raw almonds, olives, all of these things grew in abundance. So, for these people, fasting–people with these genetics, fasting is probably not a good thing for them, which is I know–and again, the poison is the dose. But again, looking at your biofeedback going back to these seven keys to biologically optimizing your diet, your biofeedback is always telling. So, if you're using things like the Biostrap or the Oura ring or whatever, saying, “Hey, is fasting improving my metrics or are they making them worse?” is really the key.
Ben: Okay. Alright. So, one question I have based on this. Wade, you follow plant-based diets largely, from what I understand, combined with the bodybuilding. Have you actually tested your genes and found yourself to be one of these people who is genetically not favored for a ketogenic diet? Well, I guess I'm curious about that because I just wonder, with you having followed this type of diet you're following right now for so long, are you doing that because you discovered that actually tended to be pretty compatible with your genetics?
Wade: Yeah. Great question. So, when it comes to myself, I didn't do well on a ketogenic diet. However, I was attempting to do a ketogenic diet on a plant-based diet. So, that didn't work for me. I do have the capability to do a ketogenic diet if I chose to use animal foods. And so, one of the things that–I used to be a carnivore way back in the day of my early bodybuilding days when I was young, and then I switched over I think in 2001 to a plant-based diet, and it was more of an experiment. Again, another radical experiment to kind of see what I could do. And that was one of the reasons that was interesting that was the founding of why we got into this is because I would attempt to do the ketogenic diet on a plant-based diet and it just didn't work for me.
Now, I'll put a caveat there. Even though I have the genetic capability for it, again I'm not doing what I would call a traditional ketogenic diet. And I feel great on a plant-based diet, which is interesting as well, and I do seem to have the genetics to support that as well. I'm kind of an unusual case, but my choice is if I went to a ketogenic diet and was doing plants, I would probably do really well on a plant-based I wasn't able to. And then we invented the kApex product to compromise bridging that gap so that I could go down that road.
Now, I haven't fully embraced a ketogenic plant-based diet yet. I'm still playing with the kApex as someone who still is on a carbohydrate dominant diet to see what the effects are for someone who's not on a ketogenic diet and still has the support of genes to be okay on a plant-based diet. And that by the end of the year, I think we'll be in a position where I can go the other way because I've not done the research. Now, we just did another blood draw the other day. I'm waiting for the results back to see what's happening.
Ben: Okay. Got it.
Matt: Well, I got to jump in here and just say that just looking at reality and Wade's results in the past, I mean–and Wade likes to call himself a carbivore. Wade does really well on carbs. So, Wade for sure has great genetics. I mean, we've got shredded over and over again on a high-carb diet, low-fat. So, Wade for sure has great genetics to eat carbs, where if I would have followed his diet, I would not have gotten the same results for sure. I tried it.
Wade: There's one other thing I would add to it, and let's not disregard what I would call lifestyle damage or interventions. So, for example, what I've noticed is a lot of people who ate a lot of sugar as kids seem to have trouble metabolizing carbs. And for me, I think some of my–it's experiments and drugs and stuff like that may have damaged some of my fat metabolizing pathways like lipolytic pathways. Well, let's not completely discount lifestyle or environment on what's happening to a person and solely base everything on genetics.
Matt: I agree 100% because I was the high-sugar kid. And for sure, that affected my gut biome on some level, right? It probably affected my epigenetics as well. The other thing too is we cannot underestimate epigenetics. So, again, all the things that Wade has done has switched on a lot of genes and switched off other ones, and same thing goes for me. So, yeah, I was the high-sugar kid and that could have permanently affected things and made my ability to use carbs a lot less effective.
Ben: Well, it affects the biome pretty significantly too in terms of the [00:51:52] ______ ratio and some of the microbiome elements that would be responsible for contributing to, say like, carbohydrate cravings, the ability to be able to digest carbohydrates efficiently, et cetera. And the nice part about that is that in many cases, once you have eliminated or weaned yourself off of carbohydrates, sugars, and starches, you can actually shift your microbiome favorably. Although even that, based on the research I've seen, does require some tweaking of the diet based on prebiotics like pomegranate, seed extract, and grapefruit extract, oregano. There's a variety of herbal compounds that can actually help to shift the biome when you're shifting your macronutrient ratio to reduce a lot of these cravings.
And some of the work by that–or on that has been done in Israel and is related to Robb Wolf's book, “Wired to Eat.” So, I'll link to that research in the shownotes over at BenGreenfieldFitness.com/upgradeketo. And then there's also a podcast that I'll hunt down–I believe it was a podcast recorded by the guys at ATP Science, and they also went into some of these compounds that can help to shift that biome a little bit more favorably towards specifically decrease in sugar and starch consumption. So, I'll hunt down some of that research and put it in the shownotes for folks.
But what I'd like to do is hear a little bit more about this idea behind kApex, which you've brought up a few times. And really, all I know about it at this point is you sent me a preliminary bottle like six months ago and Matt told me, “Be careful. Don't take this anytime other than the morning or before noon because it gives you so much energy you're going to have a hard time sleeping.” He said it would give me, despite very high fat intake, I would be able to poop like a baby and not have a lot of the constipation that people get on a ketogenic diet. And he also said it would upregulate my metabolism and I'd see a noticeable spark in fat loss.
So, I started using it. I think you sent me two bottles since then and I've been taking five a day, just in the morning, just to experiment with it, see what it's like. Poops have been good. Energy has been good. I did try taking it in the afternoon a couple times, and similar to what you experienced, Matt, I couldn't fall asleep 'til like about midnight to 1:00 a.m.-ish. And again, which is weird because it doesn't have caffeine in it, and I want to take a deep dive into the biochemistry of this thing. So, that's what I know about kApex right now. Where's the best place to dive into this formulation, how it works, and what some of the common mistakes on keto are and how I might address those?
Matt: Yeah. I guess the formulation started by looking at the struggles that a lot of people have on keto. And keep in mind, I've been doing keto for 26 years, not non-stop, but probably almost 50% of that time. So, for a lot of times, that's cycled back and forth, and now I've been non-stop for over four years. So, the issues–and of course a lot of people on keto, like I've coached keto coaches and I'm very familiar with the problem. So, the first issue is a lot of constipation. I think that's the big one, and that relates to either lipase deficiencies or not enough bile production.
So, the first thing I wanted to do was to solve that, which we did. So, we have a four-lipase blend. We call it LIP4. It has got four different lipases designed to break fat down. The second part of that is the dandelion root extract, which stimulates bile production. So, that combination of the LIP4 and the dandelion root extract takes care of the fats. Now, if you're keto, you're also eating protein. So, we included the same tri-phase, protease blend. So, that's three different proteases. That is found in MassZymes. Plus, the HCL, which will help you break down the amino acids from the protein.
We also included Aristozyme, which is an astragalus-based ingredient that transports up to 66% more aminos through the intestinal tract into your bloodstream, which is really critical. Because ultimately, if you want to go to assimilate these amino acids into your muscle tissue, they need to cross the intestinal tract, right? I mean, even if you break them down in your stomach and you break them down in your intestinal tract but they don't cross over, then they're not going to benefit you. So, that's the digestive component of it, but that was just part one, okay? So, that's to solve the digestive issues.
Ben: So, what we're talking about here would be for people who are genetically predisposed to not be able to produce high enough amounts of lipase or digest fats efficiently, or for people who might just be shifting into higher amounts of fat than their enzyme production might be accustomed to, this would be a lipase blend of four different lipases. And I think the label says LIP4TM. I assume that's just like the patented term for the four different lipases?
Matt: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's [00:57:15] _______.
Ben: And so that would increase the ability to be able to digest fat more efficiently, and it would increase the amount of HCL-produced and bile-produced to enhance digestion?
Matt: Correct. Now, this is not just for people that have issues with lipase because you're going to see where we go with the product. This product is also designed for people that just want all-day energy without relying on stimulants. Or of course, you can stack it with stimulants like I did today. I took my kApex. I mean, it's 8 to 10 hours–I mean, it may be even 12 hours of just constant energy. We're going to get into the mechanisms of how that works. But in order to make that happen, we need the fatty acids from the fats, which is what the LIP4 does. Again, even if you got nice lipase production, we still want to just maximize the breakdown of fats into small fatty acids so that we can drive them to our mitochondria and burn them up, okay?
So, the second big problem that happens with keto is a drop-in peak athletic performance, right? And we know that from–usually, it takes about a year, right? In my opinion, there are three or four levels of fat adaptation. The first one is the keto flu stage, the first 10 to 14 days, which by the way, you can solve using ketone esters or ketone salts. That's an easy one. Second one is around three months. And at that point, you can start like carb cycling, in my opinion, and not fall out of keto. The third one is about a year. And that's the one where–usually, your athletic performance goes up. And I'm talking about like peak athletic performance, people that train really hard. And I know that when Wade went on keto the first times, he struggled at the gym a little bit. Wade, you want to talk about that?
Wade: Yeah, because obviously, I do a lot of heavy lifting in that kind of bodybuilding range of reps, not so much on the powerlifting side. But there was a real–I just didn't have any pop or energy in my workouts and I just struggled with that when I tried keto and couldn't make the jump. And part of my experience we talked about earlier today is can I still have pretty good workouts on no food? And it's part of the experiments that we're doing in this keto project or this keto [00:59:45] ______.
Matt: Yeah. And talk maybe about the difference that kApex made on your workouts, Wade, as far as like the before and after. Unlike when you're in low-food, low-carbs–
Wade: Yeah. I mean, it's undeniable that I'm able to maintain–actually, I think my force output is actually improved on the process since I've been using it. And as evidence in my workouts and my tracking my results, it's been superior in the last few months than it has been in the last few years. Of course, I'm in my late 40s, and you expect a bit of a decline. But now I'm seemingly to be on an upswing. So, for example, on my DEXA scan, I actually put on a pound of muscle and I'm not using any other like SARMs, or anabolics, or anything else. I haven't put on a pound of muscle in years.
Ben: Yeah. When you're talking about the ketogenic diet inhibiting broad athletic performance, I think again we'd probably have to get into the weeds a little bit more because–like I think I was talking with you about this, Matt. I was part of Jeff Volek's FASTER Study at University of Connecticut where he had me and a group of endurance athletes follow a strict ketogenic diet, 90% plus fat for 12 months. And then had another group of athletes follow a traditional endurance athlete diet of around 50% to 60%-ish carbohydrate. In some cases, up to 80%.
And then they brought us into the lab and did a range of tests from VO2 max testing, to endurance testing, time to exhaustion, et cetera, along with muscle and fat biopsies. And they actually found zero deleterious impact on endurance performance and even VO2 max with the ketogenic diet. And again, I think the area where people are held back the most, where they might actually benefit from something like this would be if you're competing in a sport that has glycolytic demands on a regular basis. And by that, I mean, you're competing in a sport where you have certain periods of time during the week where during your workout or during your competition, you have to go hard for about 30 seconds to three minutes or so. If you fall into that category, that's definitely where I think you could be hampered by a ketogenic diet unless you're doing some things like this, for example, to actually allow you to be able to hit those glycolytic ranges.
Matt: Well, I'm 100%. So, when I'm talking about decreased performance, it's more on the anaerobic side. On the aerobic side, we know that keto is awesome because it's almost like an endless energy supply. So, it's more like, when I say intense exercise, it's more anaerobic, which obviously, weightlifting is or all kinds of different things are. And just for the record, I broke a leg press record that I had literally hadn't broken in 22 years. I think I was on seven caps of kApex and I leg pressed over 1,000 pounds, which I hadn't done in 22 years.
So, there's definitely, even for me who's been on keto non-stop for four years and on and off for 26, it was definitely a jump. And keep in mind, I leg press all the time, so it wasn't like it was a new thing. It was just like, “No. There was a huge, huge jump in performance.” So, I think even for endurance athletes, and we're going to get into the mechanism in a second, it's a big one. And the third one is energy. Now, a lot of people get more energy on keto, but some people don't, and again it's probably genetic-related. But regardless of if you got genes or not, the kApex will increase your energy because what we're doing, we've got the fatty acids broken down, right? We talked about that. That's phase one.
The second component is the L-carnitine, which is nothing new. But again, it's the way it works with this entire process. This is true synergy. We're transporting these fatty acids into our liver and into the muscle mitochondria. And then the third thing we're doing using InnoSlim, 7-keto-DHEA–
Ben: Wait, just to back up a second, that's what you were referring to. The carnitine, for people who don't understand, that's actually allowing for fatty acid transport, correct?
Matt: Exactly. It's like little trucks bringing these fatty acids. And Wade, do you want to talk about L-carnitine? Wade actually studied L-carnitine back in that university.
Wade: Yeah. I actually wrote a paper on the carnitine shuttle and the relation between acetyl coenzyme A that gets released and would prevent–that's where medium-chain triglycerides became popular because you didn't require L-carnitine to deliver that into the muscle tissue. And of course, we all know where that went eventually in the nutrition world. It's become quite popular. Now, it was revolutionary when I was back in university in the early 1990s. And so definite, I think L-carnitine is a significant benefit in helping us metabolize fats. And I do believe that's also–so we're looking at multiple stages. First, you break down the fats in the digestion, then you deliver the fats to the mitochondria. And then finally, you boost mitochondrial functioning or energy production on those fats. And Matt will get into that piece of the puzzle. And for me who's not on any kind of ketogenic diet, I mean, it's definitive that it absolutely works. So, that's [01:05:24] ______.
Matt: Yeah. I want to be clear, too. You don't need to be on keto to use kApex. You can use kApex. A lot of people–and the feedback so far has been incredible. We released it a few weeks ago and we're starting to get the feedback and everybody just loves it because you can use kApex even on carbs that–because Wade sometimes is using carbs. Use it in an empty stomach first thing in the morning. That's more for the energy benefits. So, let's get into the third piece, which is–this is where the–
Wade: I will say one other anecdotal piece, which is interesting, and I don't know exactly what it is but it might be from the lipase and previous damage. I actually started to crave fats, which I can't ever recall that ever happening. Mostly fats, I'm not that big of a fatty food type of person. And all of a sudden, it's like my body was like, “Hey, I want more fats,” and I started drinking–like literally dumping piles of essential fatty acids on my cell.
Ben: It's interesting. Some of that makes me wonder whether or not that might be like a mild hypoglycemia triggering appetite as well because carnitine has been shown to significantly reduce blood sugar levels. And then I know you guys also have a component in there called InnoSlim. I've looked into that quite a bit and it inhibits cholesterol and fat and triglyceride synthesis and may have an effect on blood sugar as well. So, it could be possible that you're simply experiencing a spark and appetite, or even a craving for specific fatty acids because you're simply of a higher throughput. You're burning more with lower blood sugar levels.
Matt: Yeah. That's why I'm interested to blood draw the other day and start testing some of these things that's been happening for me. It's like, “Okay. What's going on here?” Because I don't have the science to back up the anecdotal evidence and between months from now it will.
Ben: Yeah. It would be interesting. And again, me taking five capsules a morning for the past two months. I just went in for this blood draw this morning. I'm actually kind of curious to see what my triglycerides, fatty acids, my hemoglobin A1c, et cetera, looks like just to see how this has affected my own metabolic parameters.
Matt: Well, let's get into the magic, okay? So, again, so far, we've got the fatty acids. The L-carnitine shuttle them into the mitochondria, and this is where the InnoSlim, the CoQ10, and the 7-keto-DHEA do their magic, especially in the liver. So, let's talk about InnoSlim. So, InnoSlim will do several things. One, it'll boost the AMPK in the muscle by 52%, and in fat cells by 300%, ups the ATP in your liver by up to 22%, that's part of the energy boost, amps your adiponectin by up to 248%, that's a key fat-burning hormone, it can elevate your GLUT4, which is a glucose shuttling molecule by up to 488%.
So, that's the InnoSlim, but what it's doing is increasing the mitochondrial activity, especially in the liver. Same thing with 7-keto-DHEA, that is activating three different enzymes in the liver, which is cranking up the mitochondrial production, again especially in the liver. And then we got CoQ10, which also has all kinds of mitochondrial benefits. So, the three together are just cranking the mitochondrial production.
Ben: The three being this InnoSlim and what else?
Matt: The CoQ10.
Matt: Right. Ubiquinone, and then the 7-keto-DHEA, which is completely different than DHA.
Ben: That's actually something that I want to hear you talk about because DHEA is–it's a banned substance. I had a fellow competitor in Spartan actually got banned from a race because he thought he was taking DHA and he was taking DHEA and just–I think he was buying like Walgreens or CVS or something like that. So, what's the difference between DHEA and 7-keto-DHEA?
Matt: So, 7-keto-DHEA is very different, okay? So, DHEA is more of a hormone precursor, which obviously for anti-aging benefits is great. But the 7-keto-DHEA is more of a fat loss benefit. And what it's doing, it actually raises your metabolism by around 5% according to some of the research we've looked at. And it's doing that by increasing three different enzymes in the liver. So, in some of the studies, yeah, people–it was about a 5% difference. And where people really saw the difference was when they were dieting the 7-keto-DHEA group, their metabolism stayed elevated versus the other group. So, it was actually a 5.8% difference to be accurate.
So, it's more of a fat-burning thing. I do think it is banned, by the way, by a lot of competitive athletic groups depending if it's water or whatever. So, make sure you look into that because I know, for example, one fighter in the UFC got busted for 7-keto-DHEA. The way it works is specifically cell metabolism and by the brain, and it activates PPAR alpha, which is a protein that helps make peroxisomes burn fat and boost weight loss. So, that's the mechanism of action. And again, there's three different enzymes in the liver that it's boosting.
But the way we're using it is really to again activate the mitochondria in the liver. And again, we're stacking that with the ubiquinone and the InnoSlim to just create the synergy. So, we're getting way more fatty acids broken down, we're transporting it into the mitochondria, and then we're just revving the mitochondria up. It's like we're taking the mitochondria from a V4 to a V12. So, that's the process. So, we're just way more fuel, upgrading the motor's horsepower and the pistons, and then we got magic.
When I got the first samples, I took it, I think it was 2:50 p.m., Wade was here, and it completely wrecked my sleep. Not the quality of my sleep. It just took me a lot longer to fall asleep, took me about three hours, repeated the experiment again. I'm like, “It could have been just the fluke. It could have been something else.” Took it again at 3:00 p.m. and my Oura ring said it took 2 hours and 50 minutes to fall asleep that night. Usually, it takes me 15 minutes, latency, to fall asleep. So, I know it works. So, if you're taking it for energy, you want to take it first thing in the morning. You wake up, you take your, depending on your body weight, I'd say three to six caps. Probably about–
Ben: But you're taking it on an empty stomach not with fats if you're taking it in the morning like that?
Matt: Correct. Now, if you want to use it for digestion, you use one to two caps with the food. So, for energy, it's empty stomach first thing, and again three to six caps, and that is the energy protocol. And if you want to use it more for digestive purposes, then you're going to use one to two caps with the meals.
Ben: Okay. Would this replace another digestive enzyme complex? Because I mean like you guys, for example, you have that one that I interviewed you about, the MassZymes, this is like a fat-digesting, fat-burning type of supplement. But do you have any type of protein-digesting compounds in here if someone wanted to use this as their sole digestive enzyme, or do they need to stack this with some of their digest proteins?
Matt: No, we do. We wanted this again for people on keto or even paleo to be a complete thing. So, no, we do have the same tri-phase protease blend that's in MassZymes just at a lower dose. So, it's not the same dosage as MassZymes, but it's still a high dose. It's still a very high dose.
Ben: Okay. Alright.
Matt: So, you're still getting the proteolytic enzymes. But again, there's no amylase. So, if you're eating carbs, there's no digestive aids for the carbs. So, again, like MassZymes has 17 different enzymes, which for somebody eating more carbs or paleo or whatever–
Ben: Yeah, understood, but this is primarily a supplement for people on a ketogenic diet, anyway. So, the assumption is they really wouldn't be having a lot of carbohydrates.
Matt: Correct. Or you want to get another source of stimulants without affecting your nervous system, which is awesome, right? Because Wade's burnt out on caffeine, not burnt out on caffeine, like a lot of people reach adrenal fatigue, which is not fun. Yeah. So, this is basically a stimulant-free option for any of you.
Ben: Yeah, yeah. If you want to stimulate your nervous system, just take Vyvanse or Adderall instead, right, Matt?
Matt: That is another alternative.
Ben: [01:14:24] ______.
Matt: That is another alternative.
Ben: Okay. So, basically, you'd take one to two of these with any meal that you're eating during the day, especially if you're on a ketogenic diet, but you start things off if you want a whole bunch of energy by taking about four to five in the morning on an empty stomach?
Matt: Yeah. And on your next race, I'd like to see you take like six or seven that day, again early, and report back to me on the effects, because I think it's going to take your performance to another level. It really does.
Ben: I had a triathlon this weekend. I could try it. I mean, that's the tricky part about racing though is it's so hard to have comparisons when you're racing unless you've done that identical race a year prior without the actual supplement. It's so hard for me when I'm racing to try things out aside from just subjective analysis of how I feel. But yeah, I mean, I'll try it out. What's the worst that could happen? I shit my speedo?
Wade: Yeah. I would split the dosage. So, I've done experiments and I find it works better if you do like four and four, or five and three, or six and two, something like that. So, I take some early in the morning and then I'll take another boost in the afternoon. That'll keep me going 'til midnight. But I'm taking it only for the–I'm only taking it for the energy performance aspects in the fat digestion.
Ben: What if you don't have any of the nutrigenomic issues related to impaired fat digestion? Do you ever need something like this?
Matt: Yeah. So, again, I'd get the energy boost. I mean, people are just loving it for the energy. I mean, your coffee which you sell. By the way, a great coffee. I'm a big fan of Kion Coffee. I mean, people drink coffee for energy. So, this is another alternative. And you can stack it with stimulants. You can stack it with coffee. It'll just take it to another level.
Ben: Interesting. Okay, cool. So, basically, the name of this stuff is kApex. Why do you call it kApex?
Matt: Well, to me, this is the apex, which means the ultimate of ketogenesis. So, it's a ketogenesis enhancer. So, keto apex, kApex.
Ben: Ketogenic apex, okay. I get it. Very clever. Alright. Well, what we're going to do is for anybody who wants to try this stuff off, the website is Kenergize, like K energize, Kenergize. But if you go to kenergize.com/greenfield, that'll just get you 20% off of any of the kApex stuff. The coupon code is GREENFIELDKX. So, you go to kenergize.com/greenfield. Use coupon code GREENFIELDKX if you want to try this stuff. And then also, I'll just link to all the research and everything that we talked about in the shownotes and my other podcast with Wade and Matt about digesting gluten, digesting protein, some of the other enzyme complexes we talked about because that's kind of like what they specialize in at BiOptimizers really. I mean, not to put words in your guys' mouth, but it's basically like it. Most of your supplements are for being able to digest things far more efficiently.
Ben: So, I'll put links to all that if you just go to BenGreenfieldFitness.com/upgradeketo. And of course, because we started this podcast off with such an interesting mix of different things that you guys are up to, anything that is notable or interesting on the docket for later on today after we finish recording, crazy workouts, biohacks, more, I don't know, Ritalin or something like that, Matt?
Matt: No, but I'm excited to start a cycle of injectable SARMs really soon, some injectable LGD-4033. Pretty excited about SARMs and peptides. I've spent a lot of time every day really for the last two, three months. So, I'm going to start playing with that. I think SARMs are really exciting, and I think the injectable stuff is going to be the way to go. But I'm–
Ben: Yeah. LGD-4033 is pretty interesting, by the way. Some people might not know what that is, but it acts very similar to an anabolic steroid to stimulate muscle growth, but it doesn't actually act on your androgen receptors. So, it probably doesn't downregulate your own production.
Matt: It does though. I've seen a lot of post–and sorry to interrupt. I've seen a lot of post-SARM blood work, and it does drop it a little bit, and not like testosterone would, but it does drop it a little bit depending on how much you use–
Ben: I have my own theories about that and I think it's because of the potential for liver toxicity, depending on how you cycle it and how much you take. And because the liver is so crucial for proper endocrine dysfunction and metabolizing things like testosterone and estrogens, I suspect part of it might be due to impaired liver function with improper use.
Matt: Well, that's why I think the injectables are the way to go versus the orals.
Ben: Yeah, yeah. I'd be curious to see what–
Matt: [01:19:26] _______.
Ben: So, it results–
Matt: Yeah. I'm going to do the blood work so I can report back to you. But yeah, we're going to do the blood work, do a cycle of LGD-4033 for about eight weeks, and then do the blood work again. My biggest concern is more on the cholesterol. People that do SARMs tend to see some changes in there, depending on again what they're using and what their genetics are. As far as downregulating, S-23 is probably the worst. It tends to really shut things down as far as testosterone production. But people that do get shutdown typically bounce back quite quickly, especially if they do a PCT cycle.
Ben: Yeah, yeah. Interesting. And from what I understand for using SARMs, I haven't seen a lot about it actually increasing particularly atherosclerotic components of the lipid panel like particle count, for example, versus just a general increase in LDL, which may not be atherosclerotic in and of itself. So, it could just be a transport mechanism response or something like that. I mean, I don't know if the lipid panel issues are that big of a deal, honestly, on SARMs, but I haven't done a ton of research on LGD particularly for that. So, not quite sure. How about you, Wade? Anything interesting going on this afternoon?
Wade: Yeah. We're going to do a King Kong cocktail IV. I know you're a big fan of IVs and I love them, so I got a naturopathic doctor who makes house visits. His name is Dr. [01:21:03] ______. He actually comes to your house, and while you're working, he just hooks you up with the bag. So, I'm going to get zapped with a host of minerals, and NADH, and some amino acids, and some B-complex vitamins. I'll be flying late into the night. I'll put my cape on and launch off the balcony here probably around midnight.
Ben: Wow. They'll put NAD in that as well, huh.
Ben: Cool. Yeah. I've been doing less and less of the IVs for NAD and more of these patches that I get from that clinic in San Diego because I keep doing–they actually just introduced a new patch. I think it's 750 milligrams. Before that, it was about 400 milligrams. But the patch is–that's the only thing I found aside from an IV that actually makes you feel the same way as you do from an NAD IV, because a lot of these supplements like NAD and NR and NMN that you take orally, they give you a little bit but they don't even hold a candle to the increase in energy and the ability to be able to go by and less sleep, et cetera, that you get after a series of NAD IVs. But I feel very similar to what I get from the NAD on a patch with obviously a little less hassle. I just put it on before bed. It does a slow-bleed the whole night when I'm asleep.
Matt: Wow, that's cool. I don't know. Of course, I want to go try that.
Ben: Yeah. You should look into the patches. It's a little more comfortable, too. It doesn't feel like somebody's kicking you in the gut.
Matt: By the way, we were screaming your name the last time we did a week of neurofeedback because we were trying to break your record on time on doing a full IV, a full bag, and I got down to 30 minutes the last day and then you crushed my spirit. That's when you told me that you were down to 10 minutes. So, thanks, Ben.
Ben: That's not okay. That's a push IV. So, it's only 30 ml fluid, but yeah, it's not fun. And I actually do it myself because I don't trust anybody else to be pushing it in. So, I just do a milliliter, stop, one round of box breathing, another milliliter, stop, one round of box breathing. I can get it in about 10 minutes, but it sucks. And I always have a garbage can next to me to puke in should I need to. But I honestly think the sympathetic nervous system response that you get from that is part of the reason you feel so damn good afterwards. The same reason I feel really good after just like a soul-crushing workout, for example. So, I think that's a little part of it, too.
Matt: Yeah. We were screaming your name.
Ben: That's funny, that's funny. Alright. Well, I'm glad two grown men somewhere are screaming my name. And, in the meantime, if you guys want to check out what Matt and Wade are up to, again go to kenergize.com/greenfield. It's spelled with a K, kenergize.com/greenfield. You get 20% off of any of this kApex that we talked about if you use coupon code GREENFIELDKX. Then the shownotes are over at BenGreenfieldFitness.com/upgradeketo. Matt, Wade, thanks for coming on the show, guys.
Well, thanks for listening to today's show. You can grab all the shownotes, the resources, pretty much everything that I mentioned over at BenGreenfieldFitness.com, along with plenty of other goodies from me, including the highly helpful “Ben Recommends” page, which is a list of pretty much everything that I've ever recommended for hormone, sleep, digestion, fat loss, performance, and plenty more. Please, also, know that all the links, all the promo codes, that I mentioned during this and every episode, helped to make this podcast happen and to generate income that enables me to keep bringing you this content every single week. When you listen in, be sure to use the links in the shownotes, use the promo codes that I generate, because that helps to float this thing and keep it coming to you each and every week.
My guests on today's show are coming back for a three-peat. They first appeared in the episode, “Probiotic Enemas, Digestive Enzyme Myths, Breathing 10 Kilograms of Oxygen, Low-Protein Diets & More!” then appeared again in, “How I’ve Been Able To Gorge On Delicious Gluten-Filled Foods Without Feeling Like I Swallowed A Pair Of Motor-Powered Scissors Tearing Up My Intestines.“
They are Matt Gallant and Wade Lightheart.
Matt Gallant is an entrepreneur, poker champion, ex-rock guitarist, serial entrepreneur (who's built 13 companies in the last 20 years), strength and conditioning coach with a degree in kinesiology, and the CEO and co-founder of a company called BiOptimizers.
Wade T. Lightheart is the host of the AWESOME Health Podcast, a 3-time All Natural National Bodybuilding Champion, advisor to the American Anti-Cancer Institute, and Cofounder of BiOptimizers. He is also the author of several books, including the best-sellers “Staying Alive in a Toxic World” and “The Wealthy Backpacker.”
Matt and Wade have cracked the code on solving the major metabolic deficiencies that block you from thriving on keto. They've actually turned hundreds of people onto keto over the last couple of decades. Unfortunately, most struggled with three core metabolic issues—which Matt and Wade never knew how to fix until recently. They began doing hundreds of hours of research and testing on the different nutrients that could help solve these challenges.
It wasn’t easy. It took them pouring through a TON of studies (which we talk about in today's episode)… massive amounts of real-world testing… until they ultimately discovered the perfect combination of nutrients for optimizing fat digestion, energy metabolism, and fat loss enhancement.
They're thrilled to finally reveal solutions that solve all of these problems—in just 7 seconds… and gives you a new level of energy that rivals coffee. Smooth consistent bowel movements and fat loss on a low-carb or keto diet are now possible. These results are made possible by a solution we talk about in today's show—a solution that takes just 7 seconds to open the lid of a bottle, pour the capsules in your hand and throw them in your mouth.
This episode is for you if you ever experience digestive issues when you eat high-fat meals…
…such as constipation, diarrhea or a meal just sitting in your stomach…
…or if your intense exercise or peak athletic performance has taken a dip since you switched over to lower carbs…
…or if you want to experience a new level of energy, mental clarity, and focus without relying on stimulants.
During our discussion, you'll discover:
-Interesting biohacks Matt, Wade, and I did prior to recording the podcast…7:23
- Wade's 3-day water fast
- Maintained regular workouts
- Rebounder in the morning, weights in the afternoon
- Last day, go for a long walk, then into steam room to force the body to convert fat into water
- How Mark prepared for the call:
- Microdosed Vyvanse
- Lucy gum (nicotine)
- The International Peptide Society
-What nutrigenomics is…24:20
- 7 keys to biologically optimize your diet:
- Gut biome
- 3 categories:
- Aesthetic goals
- Health (anti-aging)
- Geography of one's ancestors influences the proper diet for us
- AMY1A (amylase)
- LCT, MCM6 (lactase)
- FUT, SHBG (fiber, dietary, B12)
- FLAD1 (biosynthesize omega 3 and 6 from polyunsaturated fatty acids)
- BCML1 (polymorphisms)
- CPT1A – arctic mutation for fatty oxidation
- FAD 1, FAD2
- ADRB2 (saturated fats)
- APOE2 (satiation)
- FTO3 (body fat)
- PPAR Alpha (coastal adaptation)
-How Wade's genetics influenced his current diet…47:30
- Didn't do well on a plant-based ketogenic diet, but does well overall on a plant-based diet
- Does great on a high carb diet
- “Don't discount lifestyle and environment and place all the weight on genetics”
- ATP Science podcast on how gut flora affects carb sensitivities
- Book: Wired To Eat by Robb Wolf
-The biochemistry of kApex and how it addresses some of the fundamental mistakes of keto…53:23
-Specific uses and applications of kApex…1:09:10
- 7 keto DHEA raises metabolism by ~5%
- Increases 3 different enzymes in the liver
- Activates PPAR Alpha
- Even if you don't need it for its nutrigenomics benefits, people love the simple energy boost
-Interesting biohacks Matt, Wade, and I have planned for after recording the podcast…1:17:30
-And much more!
Resources from this episode:
- Keto Diet Mastery: The 7 key tools to optimize your ketogenesis to the next level.
- Click here to get kApex and automatically get 20% off any package of kApex with coupon code GREENFIELDKX
- Ultimate Longevity grounding/earthing mats and patches
- Longevity blood testing panel (for men or for women) I did the morning of the podcast
- My podcast on peptide stacks with Dr. William Seeds
- LUCY Nicotine gum Matt was chewing during the show (use code: BEN10 for a $10 off the $60 subscription)
- ATP Science podcast on how gut flora affects carb sensitivities
- Book: Wired To Eat by Robb Wolf
- LGD-4033 Ligandrol
- The International Peptide Society
- BGF podcast with Clint Ober
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