January 22, 2022

When I first received the book The Art of Insubordination: How to Dissent and Defy Effectively by my guest on today's show, Todd Kashdan, I thought it was going to be some fringe rebel handbook or something like The Alchemist's Cookbook, or a title that was meant to incite riots and violence.

I was dead wrong.

Instead, this book is a research-based toolbox for anyone who wants to create a world with more justice, creativity, and courage.

For ideas to evolve and for societies to progress, we desperately need rebels to challenge conventional wisdom and improve on it. Unfortunately, most of us fear nonconformists, perceiving them as disloyal, reckless, destructive, or just plain weird. Because most would-be rebels lack the strength and skills to overcome hostile audiences, principled insubordination remains an underleveraged asset in the workplace and public square.

Based on cutting-edge research, The Art of Insubordination is the essential guidebook for anyone seeking to be heard, make a change, and rebel against an unhealthy, stagnant status quo. The book also gives the rest of us the evidence-based strategies we need to become better allies of our leaders in change, ensuring that the best ideas, products, and solutions survive and win the day. Inside this book lie answers to several questions, including:

• What are the most effective ways to express unpopular, important ideas?
• How can we help principled rebels be heard and influential?
• How can we better manage the discomfort when trying to rebel or interacting with a rebel?

Filled with fresh and engaging stories about dissenters in the trenches as well as science that will make you see the world in a different way, The Art of Insubordination is for anyone who wants to see more justice, creativity, inclusion, cultural dynamism, and innovation in the world.

As a Professor of Psychology and a leading educator to the public, Todd Kashdan translates state-of-the-art science for practical application to improve our everyday lives. He is well-known for his energetic and disarming communication style. Todd received the 2010 Distinguished Faculty Member of the Year Award at George Mason University for his teaching and mentoring. He gave a TEDx talk on psychological flexibility and writes the “Curious?” blog for Psychology Today, which is enjoyed by more than four million readers.

After receiving a Ph.D. in clinical psychology (2004), Todd founded the Well-Being Lab at George Mason University which has produced over 210 peer-reviewed journal articles on well-being and resilience, psychological flexibility, meaning and purpose in life, curiosity, and managing social anxiety.

During our discussion, you'll discover:

-How to define “insubordination”…05:36

• Intentionally being provocative by taking a negative (dissent) and turning it into a positive
• Refusing and resisting the dominant social order
• Who makes the rules anyway?
• Questioning social norms, authorities, rules we've accepted as standard

-How Todd became interested in preaching the gospel of insubordination and made him write the book…08:05

• Personal: Raised by a single mother; possibly the most inefficient way to come of age
• Sociological: Beautiful and ugly sides
• Justine Sacco
• So You've Been Publicly Shamed by Jon Ronson
• The Power of Habit by Charles Duhigg
• Virtuous (principled) rebel: The motive behind one's behavior
• Winning social status points vs. acting on principle
• Podcast with Charles Eisenstein:
  • The Most Important Book About Money I’ve Ever Read – Sacred Economics: Money, Gift & Society in the Age of Transition With Charles Eisenstein.
• Tucker Max, the impending doomsday

-The difference between principled and destructive insubordination…16:46

• Howard University students protest poor housing conditions on campus
• “Agree to disagree” leads to destructive forms of dissent
• Risking comfort to make a statement – to produce societal change
• We underestimate the benefits of productive conflict so we try to avoid
• Group identity trumps issues

-Five principles of persuasion when you're in the minority or demographically disadvantaged…20:23

• The Art of Insubordination
• The “non-conformist cookbook” section of the book:
  1. Is the minority member part of our “in group”? (Group identity test)
  2. Is your message an opportunity or a threat to the group's health and longevity? (Group viability test)
  3. Identifying where things are objective and subjective
     • Kurt Gray at UNC Chapel Hill: If you give a personal narrative, you should be clarifying the objective harm that you have experienced.
  4. Project personal sacrifices you've made by expressing your message
  5. Concessions with flexible consistency
     • Consistency in statements and actions over time is the number one predictor of success in what makes minority dissent persuasive to other groups
     • Evidence and personal experience should be the cause for you to change your views on an issue, not because of social pressure
• When you are in the minority and trying to influence the group, you can't expect a full conversion
  • People revolve their lives around the groups that they identify with, the causes that they identify with
• Ask provocative questions, sparking more curiosity and less fear; provocative questions force people to think

-How a minority that affects change can avoid the mistakes of the preceding majority…54:19

• What's the end game? When will you know it's effective?
• Strategies to make sure we don't end up becoming what we hated
  • Trifecta of
    • Curiosity
    • Perspective-taking
    • Intellectual humility – everyone's knowledge base is fallible
• Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking by Susan Cain

-The three steps to raising principally insubordinate kids…1:03:30

• Foster a sense of agency
  • Train kids to engage in insubordination
  • Adults working with kids should be trained to accept some level of disobedience
• Build critical thinking skills
• Carl Sagan's Baloney Detection Kit
  • The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark by Carl Sagan
• Nobody gains your allegiance; allegiance must be earned, not an entitlement
• Thinking through the hard stuff will enable thinking through the fun stuff
• Rhetoric game

-How to teach kids to view themselves as heroes in waiting…1:15:18

• Celebrate moral bravery; dissidents, whistleblowers
• Break free from social scripts
• It's about actions in the moment when you experience fear
• The willingness to take action despite fear; cannot claim courage without the fear
• The Stanford Prison Experiment by Phil Zimbardo
  • Walk through the world as though you're waiting for the opportunity to stand up for your principles
  • Hero in Waiting Principle
• Podcast with Rich Christiansen:
  • How To Build Your Legacy, Bond Your Family With Traditions, Rituals & Routines, Rites Of Passage & Much More With Rich Christiansen of Legado Family Founder.
• You're not taking peoples' perspective; you're learning perspective

-And much more!

Click here for the full written transcript of this podcast episode.

Upcoming Events:

• Keep up on Ben's LIVE appearances by following bengreenfieldllife.com/calendar

Resources from this episode:

– Todd Kashdan:

• The Art Of Insubordination: How To Dissent And Defy Effectively
• Curious? Blog For Psychology Today
• Well-Being Lab
• TEDx Talk
• Todd Kashdan's Other Books:
  • The Upside Of Your Dark Side
  • Mindfulness, Acceptance, And Positive Psychology
  • Curious?

– Podcasts:

• The Most Important Book About Money I’ve Ever Read – Sacred Economics: Money, Gift & Society in the Age of Transition With Charles Eisenstein.
• How To Build Your Legacy, Bond Your Family With Traditions, Rituals & Routines, Rites Of Passage & Much More With Rich Christiansen of Legado Family Founder.

– Books:

• So You've Been Publicly Shamed by Jon Ronson
• The Power Of Habit by Charles Duhigg
• Quiet: The Power Of Introverts In A World That Can't Stop Talking by Susan Cain
• The Demon-Haunted World: Science As A Candle In The Dark by Carl Sagan

– Other Resources:

• Tucker Max
• Kurt Gray
• Carl Sagan's Baloney Detection Kit
• The Stanford Prison Experiment by Phil Zimbardo
• The Hero in Waiting Principle
• Howard University Students Protest Poor Housing Conditions On Campus
• Rhetoric Game

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Do you have questions, thoughts, or feedback for Todd Kashdan or me? Leave your comments below and one of us will reply!