Constipated? LISTEN To This! The Exact Instructions, Supplements, Stretches, Biohacks & Little-Known *Secrets For A Seamless Poop*: Toilet Yoga With Derek Norsworthy

Ben Greenfield [00:00:00]: My name is Ben Greenfield, and on this episode of the Boundless Life Podcast.

Derek Norsworthy [00:00:04]: Dated back in history, the toilet was only reserved for kings and cripples. And like anything, we began to idolize kings. And then it becomes part of modern culture. We want to poop like the king. And that's now led to a global crisis where things like hemorrhoids, colorectal cancer, and so forth, and you can kind of look at charts over time. There's a correlation with, you know, colorectal issues and the modern toilet. We're in, like, this hustle, rush, rush, rush society where the only time that we ever go to the bathroom is when it's, like, about to be a blowout or some type of massive emergent event. And we don't facilitate using the restroom like we would, as you described earlier, in a primal setting where you're outside, you're squatting down, birds are chirping, sun's shining, there's trees around.

Derek Norsworthy [00:00:53]: So I think we've really kind of gotten off track with it.

Derek Norsworthy [00:00:56]: Welcome to the Boundless Life with me, your host, Ben Greenfield. I'm a personal trainer, exercise physiologist, and nutritionist, and I'm passionate about helping you discover unparalleled levels of health, fitness, longevity, and beyond.

Ben Greenfield [00:01:17]: Well, my guest and I were just shooting the before this podcast about how this threatens to be the shittiest podcast that I've ever done. Right, Derek?

Derek Norsworthy [00:01:27]: Yeah, I mean, you know, Bren, I really appreciate you bringing me on the show. You built up this entire audience and this entire reputation to bring me on today to just really crap to bed, if you will.

Ben Greenfield [00:01:37]: Yeah, I can't wait to shoot the shit, folks. Don't worry. This isn't going to be a total potty mouth podcast, but this book that I'm holding up, Toilet Yoga, biohack, your bowel movement. I should probably make sure there's no brown stains or anything on the coat because I actually have had this up by my toilet for good reason. This is, like, one of the most practical guides that I've ever read about things we aren't taught, like, growing up. Like, I don't know about you, Derek, but my. My mom or my dad or anybody else, any teacher never taught me. Like, here's how you sit on the toilet.

Ben Greenfield [00:02:18]: Here's how you are actually supposed to, you know, properly perch yourself for proper colorectal angle. Here's what to do if you're constipated beyond just taking a bunch of psyllium husk or something like that. And this book Just kind of like. It's kind of like breathwork. Right when I discovered breathwork, I'm like, why didn't I learn this when I was a kid? Your book kind of reminded me of that as well. So I want to get into Toilet Yoga and everything that went into creating this book. But for those of you not familiar with Derek, Derek Norsworthy is his last name. Derek Norsworthy.

Ben Greenfield [00:02:55]: And I will link to everything, including his bio and his information, if you go to BenGreenfieldLife.com slash toilet yoga. But Derek is an author, he's an athlete, he's an entrepreneur. He's obviously a health enthusiast obsessed with pooping. I actually met Derek through music. He had given me some tips about playing my guitar and singing online. That was. That was how I originally met him and later found out he was involved with health. But Derek, can you tell your story about how you got kind of involved not specifically with toilets, but just with health and physical culture in the first place?

Derek Norsworthy [00:03:31]: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, thanks for the kind intro, Ben. And it's funny how you go from music to the toilet, and I can maybe paint all that really quickly here. But I do have a background in music. I was 2018 Mississippi Songwriter of the year. You spent a lot of time in Nashville working in the music industry. Now a governor for the Grammy organization for the recording academy. So had a pretty solid background in music and entrepreneurship.

Derek Norsworthy [00:03:58]: And sometime around the time of like 2018, while I was a healthy guy, I just kind of got into what. What I would know now is called fit sick. You know, I was out, you know, running, training, doing all the things right and. And discovered that I had a form of adrenal fatigue, low testosterone and so forth. And that was initially what led me to the toilet, was I just had my. My gut was just, you know, shut down on me. And I would be in the bathroom looking for these two ways to feel like I could just defecate, if you will, and was unable to do it. So what that led me to do is start trying to find movements and routines on the toilet that could actually help me get things out of my body to heal.

Derek Norsworthy [00:04:43]: And the more I started doing that over like a two year period, I started saying, you know what, I'm on to something here. And I can walk through some steps as we work through of how that began to evolve. But that was the initial thing. Just in the music business, working really hard as an entrepreneur got myself into a little bout of adrenal fatigue from overtraining under sleeping and just A product of hustle culture, if you will. And it brought me right down, not to my knees, but very close to it, crouched on the toilet.

Ben Greenfield [00:05:14]: You know, some people involved in hustle culture, you know, hard charging, high achievers, you and I probably fall into that category. They have toilet issues just because they don't give themselves the time to go to the bathroom. It's like, hey, got five minutes going to make it happen and reply to 10 emails while I'm trying to do this. But for other people, it goes deeper than that. You mentioned adrenal fatigue, and I want to get into that and the link between that or the proposed link between that and constipation, because I know thyroid issues can cause it. And obviously diet is a major factor here. But for me personally, when I've struggled with it in the past, I didn't have any issues at all with going to the bathroom until I was, I think I was 24 years old and I had a bike accident where I hit my tailbone really hard. And then later that year, I also sustained a hip injury to the outside of my hip, again, sliding off the bike.

Ben Greenfield [00:06:16]: This was back when I was racing triathlon. And my hips at that point were something that gave me trouble. I had a lot of doctors tell me I had sacroiliac joint issues, low back issues, a little bit of L5S1 degradation. And I think as a result of that, I developed kind of a tight pelvic floor musculature that wouldn't release. Some people will have that, for example, both men and women, from something like, say, previous sexual trauma, but it could also be brought on by physical trauma. So in my case, I sustained some injuries that from about age 25 on left me really having to pay attention to my defecation positions. And fortunately, books like yours and other tactics I've learned have helped me to learn how to breathe and relax the pelvic floor musculature. But for me, it was very anatomical.

Ben Greenfield [00:07:08]: For you, with the adrenal fatigue thing, what exactly is the link there between adrenal fatigue and pushing yourself too hard and constipation?

Derek Norsworthy [00:07:16]: Yeah, well, you know, if I were to fast forward now to know what was kind of driving the adrenal fatigue, it was mold and heavy metals, which kind of gets us back into our detox. You know, the whole idea of the book is that we live in a world that's just fumigated with environmental toxins. And I think, you know, with the, you know, the recent election, everything going on with RFK, that it's, you know, pretty much national news now that we live in a toxic soup from an environmental standpoint. But about three years into that, after I, you know, started to learn how to, you know, do things on my own to get my body to detox, I found that I had very high mercury levels, very high mold levels. Even working through, our friends at Wild Health found out that my methylation was not optimal. So kind of creating the perfect storm, if you will, around, you know, that particular. That particular piece. And, you know, to go back to something you said earlier about when we're taught to poop, you know, as I start to reflect back on this, for me, it was a lot like what you said is that, you know, anytime we view pooping in our society as an emergency, like when.

Derek Norsworthy [00:08:25]: When you're little, you go grab your mom's arm and you go grab your teacher at school, and you go, oh, hey, I have an emergency. And to me, that's setting up a train, like just a chain of events in the body that there's putting a negative connotation towards, something that we're actually designed to do from a primal aspect. So there's a lot of things that go into that. But specifically, back to your question on adrenal fatigue is that when a body is detoxing mold or heavy metals, you get what you call sticky poop. And I'm sure a lot of functional medicine doctors, a lot of your listeners out there, are familiar with that. But as, you know, as all these things come in from the body, from the bones, the fascia and so forth, and come into the gut, which is where they're ultimately going to be removed from the body. It's not something that is normal to the body. So the body starts to kind of bring these different components around it, and it makes it where you can be either softly or hardly constipated.

Derek Norsworthy [00:09:23]: So I'm sure a little bit dealing with gut issues or even your clients who may. That you can even have very loose stool but be constipated, feel like you're incompletely emptying and so forth. But for me, a lot of that adrenal fatigue was the heavy metals. It was the mold that was driving that kind of looking back on it now. And that was the link with adrenal fatigue.

Ben Greenfield [00:09:46]: Yeah, that's interesting about the loose stool also being associated with constipation. I see that in many cases in people with small intestine bacterial overgrowth or something else that causes a high amount of, say, methane production by methanogenic bacteria. In the gut or sulfur. Consuming bacteria in the gut and a large amount of gas, you'd think would kind of, like, cause stuff to get pushed out earlier. But paradoxically, that pressure can almost keep stuff inside. It's almost like a reverse pressure gradient. So you could, again, paradoxically, have loose stool, but doesn't come out because of excess gas. And sibo is a very notorious cause of constipation, often solved by eliminating a lot of fermentable compounds from the diet, like, you know, starchy carbs and wheat and onions and garlic and the like.

Ben Greenfield [00:10:37]: But the sticky poop, that makes me think of that. What's the classic joke? What's brown and sticky? You know, all the kids kind of start to snicker, and then the actual answer is a stick. But hopefully none of us are pooping sticks, depending on the fiber composition of our diet. But when it comes to this concept of toilet yoga, when did exploring that enter the scene for you?

Derek Norsworthy [00:11:02]: It kind of came out of, you know, out of necessity. So the way it happened, it was. It was kind of funny. Like, you know, it was, like, kind of known that I was having some gut issues, and my sister popped up one Christmas with a squatty potty. And I thought, like, this is the craziest thing ever, like, you know, a squatty potty. And I took it home, I put it together. Luckily, it was a wooden one, so it feels really nice on your feet. I think it's like bamboo, maybe.

Derek Norsworthy [00:11:28]: And so that was when it all began, is when I actually started to get my body in its primal position. And then following listening to my body, the body's highly intelligent, you know, once you learn how to listen to it. And so once I initially had that aha moment with the squatty potty, I started to take on different positions, start to incorporate breathing and so forth. So that. That was the initial foundation for it. So shout out to my sister for bringing a squatty potty to Christmas. I don't even think that was like, a. A dirty Santa or a gag gift.

Derek Norsworthy [00:11:59]: I think it was very intentional. So, you know, your siblings know you best. Yeah.

Ben Greenfield [00:12:03]: I remember when I first got my first squatty potty. It was a game changer. You know, the whole idea behind the puborectalis angle and how it tends to be kinked when our knees are not in a bent enough position, you know, 90 degrees or less, preferably when taking a dump, is something that I just never come across before. You know, even down to doing a master's degree of in physiology and biomechanics it's just never described the actual angle that allows for ease of defecation and less straining. And yeah, when I first got a squatty potty and my knees were like propped up at about, you know, 80, 90 degrees or so, total game changer. And then, you know, even though I don't take a squatty potty with me, everywhere in the world they make a travel version. But I just, I travel so light, I can only pack so much. I still have the habit of, say, like dragging one of the spare waste containers from the hotel room into the bathroom and propping my feet up on that, or even though I need to wash it afterwards.

Ben Greenfield [00:13:06]: Of course, just to be hygienic, I'll take like my small travel hard shell suitcase and once I empty it, when I check into the hotel room or the Airbnb, I just make that my squatty potty for the trip. And you know, anybody who's taken a dump in the woods or maybe while camping or hunting kind of knows when you dig a hole or maybe, you know, prop yourself up, you know, next to a tree and hold onto the tree for support and kind of squat the poop, that stuff just comes out much more easily. And as a matter of fact, what drives me nuts, Derek, is how high they mount toilets in many homes and hotels these days, right? You're, your knees are at a very open, you know, obtuse angle and it really does not help with defecation at all. As a matter of fact, for this new home build that I have going on in Idaho right now, I specified a toilet height. I think it's at about 15, 16 inches or so, which allows for someone who's an average height of say like six foot to be able to sit on the toilet. And even in the absence of a squatty potty, have their knees at a proper angle that allows for that nice open, you know, a puborectalis or colorectal angle. So that stuff just comes out more easily.

Derek Norsworthy [00:14:21]: I completely agree with that. And you know, I get to it in the book, you know, like, as children we probably know how to do that. I mean, we squat down with a diaper and we just go to town. Like, you know, my, my 18 month old, like he put some stuff out like that. I think that most people would be really happy about it, you know, but. And if you look at the, if you look at the length of the colon, like it's like there's an image in the book where the colon is like almost as, you know, as Long as you are tall. And we start to look at people like John Wayne and Elvis, who they did the autopsies and they died with like 40 pounds of poop in them. Like, it just starts to really put it in context of how long over time does it take that to build up and what were the, you know, what were the factors that led to that and to my, you know, from my knowledge and my whole pooping journey, it comes very much from when you take the body out of its primal position to do that type of, to do that, that it doesn't perform as well.

Derek Norsworthy [00:15:15]: And you know, another thing is like, I started trying to track back. I'm like, okay, we're, we're potty trained as children to start to take on this weird position of sitting up at this almost like slide off forward angle. And we should actually be like you said, the knee should be up for the peep to relics for the, for the rectal muscle. And. But, but toilets were designed for kings and cripples initially, which is, which is crazy.

Ben Greenfield [00:15:40]: What'd you just say? They were designed for kings and cripples?

Derek Norsworthy [00:15:44]: Yep, yep. So I got, so I went on a complete journey. It's like everybody started thinking like, hey, I'm like, there's, there's gonna think like there's this weird guy who's doing these, you know, who, who actually travels with a squatty potty. And only because I have like, you know, almost fell off the toilet by some of those hotel bin things. You've probably done this bin. But like I've drug them up there before, before I bough the travel squatty potty and got my feet all up on it and you know, went to lean over in some toilet yoga position. It slides out, hits the wall. I mean, so it's a, it's a very interesting thing.

Ben Greenfield [00:16:15]: But yeah, before you go into the history of the toilet, I've done the same thing. Matter of fact, I had one time. Because if I don't have a squatty potty or nothing to kind of like prop my. I'll just perch on the toilet seat. You've probably done this before, right? You just kind of, you know, you perch on the toilet seat and it works pretty well. But I had one place I was staying at and this is so bad, I felt so bad. I perched on the toilet seat. The toilet seat broke while I'm taking a dump.

Ben Greenfield [00:16:42]: This is a nasty story. So the toilet seat broke. I go flying halfway across the bathroom, poop still coming out of my butt. And it took me like 20 minutes to make a half assed. Pun intended. I suppose in this point, attempt to actually clean up the bathroom. So you gotta be make sure the toilet seat is, is screwed on properly if you're going to use the perching effect. Because there's nothing that sucks like an injury while you're trying to defecate and a broken bathroom toilet at the same time.

Ben Greenfield [00:17:13]: But anyways, back to the kings and cripples. I'm intrigued.

Derek Norsworthy [00:17:17]: Well, I'll have to make you feel not so bad on that. So. I mean, you're exactly right. And it goes back to our primal urge. Like we're not just like weird people that like, oh, let's go perch on this toilet. Our bodies are saying like, this is probably the best position I should get in right now. So we're just kind of following that urge. And it's also really funny.

Derek Norsworthy [00:17:35]: Like if you're in an airport or something, you have to go. I try not to go poop in airports because obvious reasons, but like you drop your backpack down and someone comes in cleaning the bathroom and they don't see anything. You're just like almost like hovering, if you will. They don't see any feet, so they're, they're, you know, gotta kind of watch the doors there. I've done that before too.

Ben Greenfield [00:17:52]: Same thing has happened to me, dude. Like I perch. I like when I go to the bathroom. Honestly, most of the times in the airport. Step one is I take the dude wipes out of my backpack. I take out a dude wipe. I wipe down the toilet seat really, really well. And then I.

Ben Greenfield [00:18:07]: It's actually very difficult to perch on a toilet seat with your pants on. So I hang my pants from the little hanger that they actually have in most bathrooms. And then I get up on the toilet seat and perch and do my thing. Yeah, you don't want to know how many times people try the door and try to figure out how to get in there and knock and like shake the rattle the door trying to enter the bathroom because I think nobody's in there.

Derek Norsworthy [00:18:29]: Absolutely. I even have to take my shoes off too, because I really haven't. I've gotten used to noticing now the pressure on my feet and the way it really helps me so I can be in and out of there quicker if I just completely just undress myself. Go fully primal, hang up on the door and go to town.

Ben Greenfield [00:18:46]: Totally. Yeah. Shoes off. Because you have to take your shoes off. Take your pants off anyways and then clean the toilet seat and perch. I do the same thing.

Derek Norsworthy [00:18:54]: Yep. And I wear the Earth Runners a lot of times, so sometimes I'll, you know, the Earth Runners can kind of, you know, they're a little more agile in those settings, so depending on the quality and the cleanliness of the place. But yeah, it's, you know, shoes off is always a preference.

Ben Greenfield [00:19:10]: Yeah, yeah, totally. And I want to get into the reason for that with some of the acupressure points in the feet anyways later on. But finish your story about the history of the toilet.

Derek Norsworthy [00:19:19]: Yeah, so, you know, I started looking it up and I, you know, dated back in history at one point in time, it was, the toilet was only reserved for kings and cripples. And like anything, we begin to idolize kings and then it becomes part of modern culture. We want to poop like the king. And that's now led to, you know, like you said, a global crisis where things like hemorrhoids and, you know, colorectal cancer and so forth. And you can kind of look at charts over time and how the modern toilet being introduced in society. I mean, there are other variables as well, but, you know, there is a correlation with colorectal issues and the modern toilet. So I love what you're doing with the toilet at your new house and, you know, maybe avoiding some of the perch wipeouts, but that's. I think that should be, you know, as we're, as we're, you know, I guess as a true pooping professional, we should start to use some of that open source policy stuff I see out there to start advocating to lower our toilets in North America.

Ben Greenfield [00:20:17]: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I'm sure the smartphone, the ability to be able to work from your phone from the throne, has not done folks any favors in the hemorrhoid department. I've even seen some gastroenterologists and other folks who advise. Actually, one of the people I was talking with about pelvic floor, muscular tightness said, dude, just like, try not to bring a bunch of work into the bathroom because it's only going to make the issue worse. In the same way, you shouldn't train your brain to associate your bed with work, like doing heavy laptop work or having business books in bed. You shouldn't train your brain to associate the toilet with work. You know, for me, it's usually like, I'll put on a podcast or an audiobook and then just jump into my thing now doing a lot of the stretches I learned from your book. But when I first heard you describe toilet yoga, Derek, I thought it was going to be like, okay, you go to the bathroom and maybe, you know, with a yoga mat on the floor of the bathroom, you do a few stretches that kind of loosen things up and cause you to get a little loosey goosey and ready to go do your thing.

Ben Greenfield [00:21:14]: Then you walk over to the toilet and take a dump. But I read your book is way different. You're actually doing these special stretches and positions while on the toilet.

Derek Norsworthy [00:21:24]: Yeah, absolutely. And like I said, it was, you know, very. It wasn't something I learned. It was something that, you know, I would say that my body taught me by following, you know, just kind of my internal rhythm and. Yeah. And what it is, I mean, everybody who's taken a yoga class. I still like to go to hot yoga myself, but there you. Everybody who's probably taken yoga at some point or another has felt the need to pass gas.

Derek Norsworthy [00:21:45]: In yoga when it's really, really quiet and calm so the body's naturally trying to release, you know, it's. It's, you know, or maybe you have. I mean, so.

Ben Greenfield [00:21:54]: Oh, my gosh. Child's pose. Down, dog. There's certain positions that. Yeah, like, this is another reason that I always make sure I have a good poop if I ever go to a yoga class, because I. Otherwise it could be disaster.

Derek Norsworthy [00:22:06]: Yeah, yeah, it's. Don't go, you know, if it's. If it's a Wednesday following Taco Tuesday or something. I mean, it can really get, you know, crazy in the yoga class. But. But no, I mean, but the thing is too, it's like, it's. You went. You talked to it earlier about the high achievers and hard chargers.

Derek Norsworthy [00:22:21]: Like, we're in, like this hustle culture rush, rush, rush society, where the only time that we ever go to the bathroom is when it's like a complete. About to be a blowout or, you know, some type of massive emergent event. And we don't facilitate using the restroom like we would, as you described earlier, in a primal setting. Or you're outside, you're squatting down, birds are chirping, sun shining, there's trees around. It's a really, you know, so I think we've really kind of gotten off track with it. But. So the idea of that is that when you go into the bathroom, the body needs to feel safe. You need to try to bring the body into a parasympathetic state, really center the mind on what's happening here.

Derek Norsworthy [00:23:00]: It's kind of a sacred event where your body is detoxifying all the things that you Know you're from your thoughts to your. Even the things that you ate and trying to remove from the body and being able to facilitate yogic movements and breathwork movements and even things like even hitting some key reflex points and so forth to aid the body in this, you know, kind of in this primal circumstance of defecating.

Ben Greenfield [00:23:28]: Yeah. And what you say about the parasympathetic activation is really important. One tip I heard back in the day from a gut person who I interviewed was stare off into the distance. Which is nice because I actually have a window in my bathroom and I can look out into the forest. I know some people who actually have nature photography or nature art in the bathroom to look at and kind of like just pensively redirect the eyes to, because it's very relaxing. I have even experimented with a couple of these vagal nerve stimulators. They actually hold up to the side of your neck and use to relax the body. You know, pro athletes will use these before, like golf or shooting free throws or something like that.

Ben Greenfield [00:24:12]: You can also use something like that as almost like a bathroom biohack to directly relax the vagus nerve. There's one called a VeRelief. You could just keep it right by the toilet and do a little bit of stim for about two minutes on the right side of the neck, two minutes on the left side of the neck, and it really relaxes the body, you know. Another example would be a lot of these pelvic floor musculature. Relaxation professionals will advise you to do breath work that trains you how to properly breathe when you're pooping. So, for example, you'll get into like the yoga frog pose, not on the toilet, you know, legs apart, kind of, you know, chest or stomach facing the floor. And then you breathe. But as you breathe in, you imagine the anal sphincter kind of like opening like a flower.

Ben Greenfield [00:24:58]: And then when you breathe out, you allow it to passively, you know, actively do it. Kegel and constrict it. But you allow it to kind of return back to a constricted position. And then you breathe in again and allow it to open. And then you breathe out and it relaxes or kind of constricts. The idea here is that when you're on the toilet, when you breathe in, your diaphragm expands. That should naturally kind of like push stuff down a little bit. And if you at the same time imagine your anus kind of opening again like a flower, then that allows for better ease of defecation, especially when combined with Something like a squatty potty or some of the moves you go into in the book.

Ben Greenfield [00:25:38]: And then when you breathe out you kind of relax everything or I'm sorry, when you breathe out, you kind of, you don't actively constrict but you allow stuff to go from that open position to a slightly closed position. Then when you breathe in, it opens again and stuff comes out. So you've got, you know, looking off in the nature, you know, vagal nerve stimulators. Not doing business in the bathroom, breathing properly. But I want to hear a little bit more about the nuts and bolts of toilet yoga. Obviously when people get the book, they'll be able to read through it and see the different stretches. And I like the one page you have in the book somewhere. I actually have that one printed often in the bathroom just for ease of reference.

Ben Greenfield [00:26:21]: But going to some of these moves that you actually do once you're on the toilet, preferably with a squatty potty in the proper position. What happens next?

Derek Norsworthy [00:26:31]: Yeah, so initially one, one thing you know, in true biohacking nature, one thing I've added since the book is I, I set my red light panel up in front of the toilet now. So it's a really like I'm just stacking it up even more. So I'll just blast myself with red light while I'm, while I'm on the toilet. So it's a really. Another good hack.

Ben Greenfield [00:26:48]: My wife would die if I added a red. My wife is very. In the feng shui, there's not a red light panel that's going to go anywhere near the master bathroom. I can put a tiny little, you know, less than a cell phone sized vagal nerve stimulator on the shelf or keep it in the bathroom drawer, but with a red light. Sounds amazing. That'd be super relaxing.

Derek Norsworthy [00:27:05]: Yeah. So yeah, to dive into the actual practice. So the idea is like, you know, the bathroom is that one place in our really busy life right now where we can actually get away and bring the body into a parasympathetic state. So the idea is what you would do is you find yourself on the toilet. Of course you're using the squatty potty to get the body in the most primal position that you possibly can in the modern world. And then you begin to focus on your breathing. So we know from breath work and meditation that the breath can slow and regulate the body in very unique ways. So the initial part is you focus on the breath and there's a whole chapter in the book that takes Everybody through a very kindergarten version of breath work and a way to bring the body to a parasympathetic state.

Derek Norsworthy [00:27:54]: But what we're trying to do there is get the body to relax and say, I'm safe in this environment. And that's a step within itself and something that like yoga is a practice, but we want to make the body feel safe. So we first start focusing on the breath, getting the body centered, getting really in touch with every part of your body through the breath. And then the second portion of this is once we get centered in the breath, we begin to move through a sequence of yogic poses. And we start on the right hand side of the body because we know the way digestion flows. And there's lots of charts within the body to show you how the digestive system works and different things around that. And you will go through a series of modified yoga poses. So like a modified figure 4.

Derek Norsworthy [00:28:40]: And then you'll actually bring that leg over and all this you're doing in cadence and sync with your breathing.

Ben Greenfield [00:28:46]: Like you're sitting cross legged in a chair. So one foot is on the ground or preferred lip on a squatty potty. And then it's like you're sitting cross legged in a chair, correct?

Derek Norsworthy [00:28:56]: Yeah, Yep. So anybody can do this, you know, depending on your mobility. And so you begin to go through this yoga sequence with the stretches, and then we start to really stack it up. We start to marry the breath to specific regions of the body. We start to touch different trigger points and reflex points within the body that are all laid out in the book that are primarily succinct to aid you in having a bowel movement. Then we move into reflex points on the foot, where there are multiple reflex points on the foot that are directly linked to the colon and to the digestive system. As you work through the practice and you start to press on those and you're dialed into your body, you will notice that they actually do stimulate different parts of the colon just through reflexology and the way the nervous system is directly tied from the feet to the enteric nervous system. So it's a combination of breath work, yoga, reflexology, some fascial maneuvers, and then you work through that practice.

Derek Norsworthy [00:30:01]: But tailoring all in.

Ben Greenfield [00:30:03]: I didn't really believe you when you told me, and then I read in the book about literally just like sitting on the toilet. Again, the easiest way to think about this is like you're sitting cross legged in a chair. And once you're sitting cross legged, you've got access to whatever Foot is propped up. So following the instructions in your book, I started to hit some of those points along the foot with my thumb and stuff just starts to drop out of your butt like. It's crazy. It's like it opens the floodgates. And I think folks might think we're talking about some elaborate 30 minute routine. It's just 10 poses in the book.

Ben Greenfield [00:30:37]: And you know, I don't even do all of. Right now. I do about six of them. Right. I, I sit in one position, hunched over a little bit. I do the right figure four, I do the left figure four, I do the right pigeon, I do the left pigeon. And that point, I'm pretty good to go. And I might have one or two minutes in each position.

Ben Greenfield [00:30:54]: But yeah, the, the reflexology points on the foot, that's a game changer. And you know what else was super interesting? Again, I didn't believe you when you told me this. You said it gave you almost like a coffee enema type of effect or this effect that like you've pooped and then there's still some inside and all of a sudden more comes out. And it was the use of the elbow, meaning when you're in the figure 4 position, let's say I have my right foot propped up on my left knee or thigh. That right elbow, you kind of drive it just a little bit into the area right around the ileocecal valve, like 2 inches or so to the right of the belly button. And all of a sudden it just opens the floodgates. And then I started doing it on the left side as well. And that's a very cool move.

Derek Norsworthy [00:31:40]: Yeah, and you nailed it. So I mean, I think, you know, you know, possibly, you know, you could be the most world renowned person for coffee enemas and things up the butt. And unfortunately. Well, I mean, I think we all, you know, we all have our own little private chapters of that. So. And I have, you know, you know, following your advice, I got into coffee enemas and, you know, still use those from time to time. But to do it every day or, you know, it's, it's not super practical. But what I did find is that you get a very similar release by just when you take the move and you do the reflexology and you follow the steps of the book and then you get to where you're actually placing the elbow near that ileocecal valve.

Derek Norsworthy [00:32:22]: And so the liver's in there. Well, so we're kind of engaging the gallbladder, the liver, it kind of causes this flush throughout the digestive system. And as you said, things just start to come out much like they would for an enema. And when the colon is clean, that's the key behind the coffee enema. And ayurvedic medicine has recognized this for thousands of years, that if you're feeling sluggish, if you're feeling sloppy or off in general, the first place to look is, you know, is the bowels. It's typically something off in the bowels. So when you get that flush, when you get that major release and you remove all that toxic waste from your body, I mean, your body lights up. And I haven't found, you know, a cup of coffee or even, you know, a good nootropic that really feels as good as a, as a just a warm release of poop.

Ben Greenfield [00:33:14]: Yeah, the coffee enema thing is interesting. I agree. You can do it too much. Not only can you get excess turnover of the cellular lining in the colon and actually affect the bacterial composition of the colon by doing it excessively, but it can cause dehydration, mineral loss, et cetera. If you're using any form of an enema too much, particularly some of the harsh over the counter enemas that you would get from say like Walgreens or CVS. Now for me, especially if I do international travel or hefty amounts of travel, I actually still need to use one of those over the counter enemas occasionally. Like for example, I did just got back from Europe and I had two six hour flights and two nine hour flights. And for the longer flights, I will often use a Valium to sleep.

Ben Greenfield [00:34:09]: And Valium can be very constipating. So when I get to my final destination, I don't necessarily travel with a full coffee enema kit, but I'll sometimes use one of those portable enemas to actually just get stuff moving along, restart the bowel movement and then get on and pass the pharmaceutical induced constipation. But the coffee enema, it's not necessarily just for constipation. You get a huge release of glutathione and bile from the liver and the gallbladder. You get enormous amounts of peristalsis. That moves stuff along in a far different way than just doing something like toilet yoga. And yeah, you even as you know, you get a little bit of a caffeine high as well and you feel incredible. So I do, once a week I do a coffee enema.

Ben Greenfield [00:34:52]: You know, I lay on my left side. I usually add butyrate to it. I add probiotics to it and I add a little bit of olive oil to it. Right. So I'm nourishing my colonic flora and kind of lubing up the tubes a little bit, so to speak, with, with breaking open a butyrate capsule, breaking open a couple of probiotic capsules, putting about a tablespoon of olive oil all into lukewarm coffee and then doing the enema. And that's great, but you're, you don't want to do that every day, as you just noted. So the, the idea of that elbow against the ileocecal valve when you're in that cross legged position works really well. But you also do what I often hear recommended and what I do myself as well, either before or during the act of defecation, moving using like the palm or you know, a percussion gun works or a handheld massage device kind of up the right side, across over to the left side, down the left side and then back over.

Ben Greenfield [00:35:53]: Kind of tracing the path of the colon.

Derek Norsworthy [00:35:55]: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So the idea it lays out in the book is that you actually can take your hands and start to make, you know, this massage tract allow along the gastrointestinal tract. And we do that later in the practice in the book because the idea is that you're kind of moving things along, you know, through the first part of the practice. And then as we start to, you know, wrap up, we do some nice gentle massaging. And what I found is like there's either gas or debt. Three, like once you start to move things out, they're left behind. And I also, you know, feel like it's kind of opening up that fascia layer and all that lymph that's in that area now that it's, you know, kind of cleansed out. But there's a really nice, you know, sequence and routine to do that.

Derek Norsworthy [00:36:35]: And I found it very helpful. And if you look at, you know, if you. And there's reflex points laid out in the book, but there's a ton of them that are in that specific region. So as you're going through and you're using your body to actually connect your hands to different areas, it's very, very a very alleviating, if you will, as to any type of, you know, after poop that would be left in the track, if that's even a word, after poop that I may have to call Webster on that one.

Ben Greenfield [00:37:01]: It's kind of like they call stem cells, you know, birth waste or after birth products. Call the poop the after poop.

Derek Norsworthy [00:37:08]: And Then I like to do, you know, like, tapping is a big thing. Like I tap in the mornings and you know, jump up and down on my feet and I do all the, you know, the weird things. Stand on one, you know, stand. Stand upside down on one finger kind of thing. But if I, you know, kind of incorporate some tapping along there as well just to kind of tap the bowel area and some. Just, just some percussion to that typical. To that area to just kind of stimulate the nervous system and any of the reflex points that are in that area. So yeah, there's a, a lot of different things that we can do to kind of stimulate digestion and clean things out to get that really nice flush.

Derek Norsworthy [00:37:41]: From a bowel standpoint. I love the idea of the Theragun. So I'm going to come back to two things you said. The Theragun is a great idea. I wouldn't bury it in there, but I think having it would be a really good thing to kind of massage and get things loosened up.

Ben Greenfield [00:37:54]: Yeah. To interrupt you real quick with something like a percussion gun. Yeah. You've got vital organs. You don't want to go super deep. And the same with. If you're doing psoas massage or something like that. What's that device? The.

Ben Greenfield [00:38:04]: Pso-Rite, you don't want to go super hard and super deep. But a lot of these guns come with a head on them that's kind of like a, like a blade, like a shovel blade used for scraping. And that's the one that I like to use. I go with real light pressure and again, just follow the. And this is usually before I sit down on the toilet. I do it for about one or two minutes and I feel like it really jump starts the process.

Derek Norsworthy [00:38:28]: I totally agree. And that's, that's kind of my thing. In the morning I, I will typically, as I'm doing my tapping routines in the morning, I'll move down and if, you know, if my body calls for it, I'll really spend more time, you know, kind of going through that, you know, going over my digestive tract in that manner. But you make a good point too. So another thing we talk about, there is, there is rhythms in certain times of the day that you should be pooping. Like, like if you look at the ayurvedic clock, you should be pooping every morning before 11am and if you look at, you know, that's something that's been validated throughout history for thousands of years. Because we are, you know, we're creatures of the earth. We're linked to this natural circadian rhythm and our bodies are actually designed to remove waste and so and things in alignment with circadian rhythm.

Derek Norsworthy [00:39:13]: So when you said I love that, that's like the ultimate biohack. I'm going to actually go get some from CVS now. But when you are going across time zones and then actually when you get there, you make sure that you empty out the colon. I think that could be just as important for the body's natural clock is like some of the other crazy stuff that we do like wearing the blue light glasses or doing the re timers and that kind of stuff. So it's really just synchronizing your system. So I like that. I'll have to, I'll have to run up and see if I can find some of those Procter and Gamble or Flushes.

Ben Greenfield [00:39:49]: I think it's Fleet makes them. They're probably going to sell out. They're probably going to sell out after the show. But yeah, Fleet makes like a little mini enema. It works fine for travel, which is probably one of the biggest causes of constipation a lot of people because you're combining sympathetic nervous system stress with typically lower fiber intake, an impact on the flora of the gut, especially if it's long haul travel and then having to poop outside of your normal time zones. Because there is, as you've just noted, an intricate link between body clock and time of defecation. Like for me, if my schedule set up exactly the way I want to any given day, I'm like clockwork about 7:30, 7:45 or so. Like that's my poop time.

Ben Greenfield [00:40:26]: Typically by then I've been up for a couple hours, I've had water, I've stretched, I've had my quiet time, my devotions. I've done the morning family huddle. You know, I've got, this isn't something I'm doing like within 20 minutes after I get up again unless I'm traveling, I just gotta go right when I get up. But yeah, the body clock piece is important and I'm a two a dayer. I'm typically about 7:30, 7:45am and then like clockwork sometime between 3 and 4pm like every single day and the morning. I realize this might be gross to some people, but this is just, you know, two dudes shooting the shit. My morning. I literally fill the toilet bowl and then the afternoon I still go again, you know. And I do have a decent amount of fiber water.

Ben Greenfield [00:41:11]: I take care of myself. But for me it's twice a day. Like clockwork.

Derek Norsworthy [00:41:14]: Yeah, the same for me. Like, I'm around. I'm between 7:30, you know, 8:00am Maybe 8:15, but. And then there's always an afternoon poop. And once you start to dial in your pooping and you realize, like, how much waste your body's putting out, like, I really feel bad for people who are not pooping every day at least once because there's a. There's a thing I cover in the book and. And I think it's what a lot of people are dealing with out there. Myself, I was too, is like, it's this idea of incomplete emptying.

Derek Norsworthy [00:41:43]: So you run to the bathroom, you take a quick poop, and basically you just remove what's in the rectum. You really don't. Like. The colon is this whole intricate large system, as we discussed earlier, but you're just dropping out a few pebbles and then you're on with your day. And what happens is when that poop stays in the digestive system, it's toxic, starts to leak back into the body. So, you know, we know there's a gut brain connection. So I'm not saying there's any link between this and mental health or mood. But for me, particularly if I've got, you know, still some toxins in the kitchen, if you will, that I need to get out, I feel off that day.

Derek Norsworthy [00:42:19]: So I actually kind of schedule my day a lot around my pooping. Like, I. If I have to get up and hustle and miss my morning poop or, you know, it kind of throws everything else off. And I, you know, allude that to there's toxins that are coming to the body and creating this little bit of agitation and. And just, you know, sympathetic response.

Ben Greenfield [00:42:37]: Yeah, I totally agree. You don't know how many times I've turned down an 8am meeting because I'm like, well, no, I'm going to be pooping right then. And I don't like to go through half my day with feeling like I'm holding in a bunch of fecal matter. And even that idea of colonic reabsorption of toxins is a thing. And so complete elimination is important. That's the worst feeling, Derek, is like. Because I go to the gym at like 8:15, 8:30, right? So I got my morning poop, and the next thing is the gym. The worst thing is going into the gym, getting five minutes into your workout and realizing, oh, crap, you know, literally and figuratively, I had an incomplete elimination.

Ben Greenfield [00:43:13]: And then you're just kind of like half distracted during the workout and you finish and you got to go try and squeeze it in before the rest of your day. So. Yeah, I agree. Paying attention to complete elimination and knowing that feels like, especially for the morning, bowel movement is so important.

Derek Norsworthy [00:43:26]: Yeah, I think. And that's the thing is Ben, and that's one of the things I want, you know, try to go through in the book, you know, we're. Is getting people to just recognize the feeling, and once they recognize it, the body will anchor that feeling and it'll, like, you'll be going to the bathroom. Like, you'll be thinking about it just starts to happen like clockwork. And I always. We talk about hustle culture again. And I always, you know, think about, like, you know, I'm not opposed to this whole, like, you know, getting up at 4:00am and, you know, running and doing. But if you jump up and you're like, running from lions and you don't poop, I don't know how much good you're doing by getting up and hustling that early in the morning.

Derek Norsworthy [00:44:00]: I think the mornings should be reserved for removing toxins of the body and so forth. So I'm sure there's, you know, someone like our friend Jocko who may come, like, you know, throw me off a ladder or something, like from a wrestling match for. But that, like, I would like to caution anybody that's, like, getting up and doing that like, like, aren't like, where. Where are you making time to poop? And there's so many people out there these days. And I'll say that Ben Greenfield is the one guy on the Internet that I found who doesn't mind talking about poop because there's so many social influencers out there. It's like, I wake up at 6:30, I get up, I brush my teeth. Standing on one foot, I'm doing the red light panel, I drink three gallons of water. And they never tell you when they poop.

Ben Greenfield [00:44:42]: Exactly. Dude, it drives me nuts. Yeah, I'm like, what kind of princess are you? And then it's like, if you were going to poop, I just looked at your schedule. If you squeeze it in there, didn't mention the schedule, you're literally getting in and out within five minutes. And if that's the case, lucky you. Congratulations. You're getting complete elimination with all these other elaborate parts of your morning routine within five minutes. But I mean, for me, 20 to 30 minutes, like for complete elimination.

Ben Greenfield [00:45:09]: Feeling really good. Getting all done. Doing the stretching, wiping post stretching, meaning that the hip flexors Tend to be very tight after a bowel movement, right? So there's typically one or two minutes of stretching each hip flexor afterwards. So when I say like 7:45 poop time, that means I'm out of the bathroom at 8:15 preparing for the workout. But yeah, like, it shocks me when I see people describe their elaborate morning routines. I think the same thing, Derek. I'm like, dude, when do you take a dump?

Derek Norsworthy [00:45:37]: Yeah, you nailed it. Like, it's like I actually. So I'll do a toilet yoga routine. And like you said, you don't have to be in there for, you know, it doesn't have to be this elaborate 75 minute yoga session. But like, let's go through the routine and I'll typically stand up and like, you know, as if I were squatting in the woods, took a little poop, stood up, you know, kind of going through and, and like let the body kind of recalibrate. And once you do that, you know, it could, it could, you could be in the bathroom for 20, 30 minutes. It doesn't mean you're just sitting there, just barreled down, straining on the toilet. But I think that, you know, I would like to advocate for people at least carving the, you know, self respect, you know, try to give yourself, give yourself 15 minutes in the bathroom and just see what happens.

Derek Norsworthy [00:46:19]: Like, how do you feel? Like, how can you be disconnected for that long?

Ben Greenfield [00:46:23]: What I do from a calendaring standpoint is I schedule 30 minutes for morning detoxification, bowel movement and stretching. And some days I'm in and out within 15 minutes. But the last thing I want is to like schedule a phone call at 8am know that my bathroom time is 7:45. And then, you know, I'm, I'm like scrambling and feel like crap again, literally and figuratively during the phone call because I've just like only made it halfway through my bowel movement, you know, So I think, you know, schedule yourself. And I do realize that tasks will sometimes fill to the time allotted. You want to be careful with that. But I find if I make sure I've given myself 30 minutes for my morning bathroom time, typically 15 minutes for my afternoon time, I'm good.

Derek Norsworthy [00:47:04]: Yeah, no, there's nothing more annoying than, you know, cutting it off short and having a turtle head trying to poke out when you're trying to perform on a call or a podcast or something. So like my thing is like, you know, it's like, how can I show up most centered to that? And I've begun to kind of Just kind of just like you, I've, you know, build my day around, you know, I want. If I want to bring my best self to a meeting or to a podcast or music or my family, it comes from first, me taking care of myself from a detoxification and stretching standpoint. So I love that you have that in your practice, and I love that you share it. So I think, you know, I always look at those schedules, and I'm like, there is no way, like, that guy. Like, I need to go learn something from them that they're doing. Like, how are they just opening this thing up, you know, that quickly?

Ben Greenfield [00:47:49]: Yeah. I've got clients, many of whom I've helped through constipation issues they didn't even realize they were struggling with. I'll talk to them, like, yeah, I poop, you know, once every couple of days, or, like, I go through the whole day, and then I. I kind of have a little poop before dinner, and I'll change up the routine and, you know, have them doing some magnesium at night, some light stretching or tai chi or qigong, or jumping up and down on his trampoline upon waking, paired with a large glass of water, going into the bathroom, making sure they know how to stretch, move their hip flexors, get on the toilet. And for people who don't know what it actually feels like to be walking around with empty bowels, it's a game changer. Emotionally, physically, mentally, you're just more clear.

Derek Norsworthy [00:48:29]: I totally agree. I think once it's open, like, and this is all, you know, like, I have a clinical background, so I don't want to say, like, this is all, like, medical advice, but this is, like, intuitive knowledge from work with the body is like, once the bowels are clear and the liver is actually able to secrete bile and do all the things that it do that it does, it just. The whole system starts to purify. And that typically, for me, that results in, like, my. Like, my cognition's better. Everything is pretty much better across the board. And, you know, and it's. You know, a lot of people don't get it.

Derek Norsworthy [00:48:59]: Like, my wife in particular, we live in the same home, and she thought I was crazy for a long time. She's like, what are you in there doing for 30 minutes? I'm like, you know, like, you know, I don't have a phone in there. I don't have a magazine out. And she's like, I can poop in, like, two minutes. And I was like, you're just not fully defecating so, you know, of course I didn't force it on her. You know, it's kind of that whole the shoemaker's rationale. But now that she does, she's like, you're on to something. So, like, slowly try to convert my family.

Ben Greenfield [00:49:28]: Yeah, the shoemaker's wife wears no shoes, I think. Also, again, I don't want to stereotype if your wife is like mine, but I work a job that is heavily calendared from like 5am until 7pm Therefore, I can't just say, oh, I'm just going to poop when it's time to poop. Because, like, right now, talking to you, walking on the treadmill, I might just be super distracted by having to poop. So especially if you have a heavily scheduled calendar, then it actually does really make sense to not just say, hey, I'm going to poop. It doesn't make sense say, I'm going to poop when I'm going to poop. Because that might be during one of your scheduled events. Instead, you say, okay, I'm gonna get it all done with early in the day, possibly have a quick repeat trip in the afternoon. You know, as long as, you know, approximately.

Ben Greenfield [00:50:11]: Usually the afternoon is not as big of a deal to squeeze in between calls or whatever, but yeah, I mean, part of it is that, you know, if you have the total freedom of schedule to just say, yo, I'm gonna poop when nature calls. That might be 11am, it might be 1pm, whatever. But based on circadian rhythmicity, body clock scheduling, and productivity, I think it's just best to have your scheduled time in the morning and get it done.

Derek Norsworthy [00:50:34]: I completely agree. And to dive in a little deeper on something you just said about the afternoon poop. So understanding there's like 37 trillion microbiota, you know, in our gut that's, you know, talking with the brain and all the sensory stuff going on. I noticed that when I take that afternoon poop and I have like, you know, feel like I have a clean colon, I'm able to, from a. From a satiation standpoint with dinner, I'm able to like, enjoy my meal more. I'm more in touch with like, even, even to the top of the digestive system on the tongue. I'm able to taste and enjoy my meal more because it's, you know, in my, my thought around it is, is that there's nothing down there distracting me from being fully present with what I'm partaking in now. So I love having it, you know, doing it before a meal.

Derek Norsworthy [00:51:18]: It just helps me feel more focused and more connected to my food.

Ben Greenfield [00:51:21]: Totally eating. Sitting down to eat a good meal while still having to poop is just like one of the suckiest things in the world. You mentioned something that I don't want to necessarily neglect to get a little clarification on because my listeners might have been confused. You said tapping. Are you literally just like tapping the gut or is there a specific type of tapping that you're doing?

Derek Norsworthy [00:51:40]: Yeah, so I mean, you know, my, my first journey in tapping started with just kind of tapping over the sinuses, up and down the face padding. So the way that I do that on the gut is actually try to focus on like the tips of the fingers. Like so as I'm actually intentionally doing this and it lays it out in the book, but I start on the, you know, the right quadrant again somewhere that, over that ileocecal valve. And I just start to kind of tap over those areas, you know, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth over those particular areas. And then I'll take the tapping down to more rather than hovering and kind of doing this spider like motion over the gut. And then I'll actually move that into more of like we show in the book. We're actually doing some clockwise rotation. So that's, that's the kind of the way that I do that.

Derek Norsworthy [00:52:27]: And I noticed, Ben, that a lot of times, like, you know, with the sticky poop and just it's surprising how much, you know, how much gas is in the, the gastrointestinal system as well. So it really helps get off any of that excess flatulence that may be in there. You know, you got to think like, I think of it like if you have this huge cylinder that's clogged up with stuff and you move it out, obviously there's some free space there as the, as the peristalsis starts to kind of, you know, take back control and the, and the colon and the gut start to kind of squeeze back to its natural place. There's a little bit of air that can be caught there. So I find the tapping is very, very, very nice for that part of the, part of the practice.

Ben Greenfield [00:53:08]: Yeah, that's awesome. And you know, you get into a lot of details in the book, all the down to toilet paper. You even had a non toxic brand. I didn't realize there were, you know, I knew tampons were toxic. I think one of my. It was Aubrey Marcus. I was doing a podcast with him. He called him, pardon the expression, pussy cigarettes.

Ben Greenfield [00:53:25]: But the idea behind tampons is of course concerning because that's an area where there's a large amount of capillary absorption. You know, the rectalized capillaries. I never thought about the chemicals in toilet paper, but it's actually a problem.

Derek Norsworthy [00:53:38]: Yeah, I mean if we think about. I always go back and you know, I kind of joke because like, you know, like I said, quite notorious for things up the butt as well. And like you, if you. And so just to paint it into context, like you know, from a medical background like in western medicine, we typically will go to something like some type of suppository form of something like a. For nausea, like a Zofran or something. But even in the biohacking world, if we look at guys like John Lieurance who has a whole host of suppository style products and it is because the, like, it's highly absorptive. You know, when you go into the rectum. So you take that same principle and you think about toilet paper and all of these chemicals and stuff that you're.

Derek Norsworthy [00:54:19]: Over the course of your life, how many times have you touched your, you know, your butthole essentially with toxic toilet paper that could be absorbed right back into the body. So you know, it's, you know, compound interest, if you will, around toilet paper can cause extreme risk. So that's, that's a, that's a big factor, you know, touching that area. And you'll notice too in the practice there's. We do we actually talk about the rectum and you know, a lot of, there's so many like little sensory things within the rectum to. Whereas if you touch it in some specific way it causes the body to, you know, either defecate or you notice the sensation from it. So yeah, I think that, you know, toxic toilet paper poses a small threat to us all by just over the use of, you know, exposure. And like take it for instance, I mean like a diaper, like they make non toxic diapers and always say like if they're making something non toxic that means there's a toxic version of it.

Derek Norsworthy [00:55:15]: So that's, you know, pointing case.

Ben Greenfield [00:55:17]: Yeah. I think Reel is the brand you mentioned in the book. R E E L. Yeah.

Derek Norsworthy [00:55:21]: No affiliation with them. Yeah. And I, you know, I've been old to, you know, like, like you said, I grew up hunting and stuff. So I've used my fair share of, you know, I think what would be best is something like a, you know, like an oak leaf or something like that out in the woods. But in A primal nature would have used something like that. But it feels, it really changes the game once you get really dialed into the body about using Reel and like bamboo, it reels a bamboo toilet paper. So I noticed it being really, really nice for cleanup.

Ben Greenfield [00:55:49]: Yeah, I'm a huge fan of the Dude Wipes brand. Not only because it just kind of looks cool by the toilet, you know, the man's thrown with his Dude Wipes, but there's like minty fresh. You don't flush them even though they say they're flushable. I don't flush them. I just have a waste basket, like one of those similar to like a diaper can next to the toilet, and I just toss them in there. Those work pretty well for cleaning you up pretty quickly. Now, one other thing I wanted to ask you was you talked towards the end of the book, Derek. You mentioned the toilet paper thing.

Ben Greenfield [00:56:19]: You mentioned staying well hydrated. You mentioned avoiding toxic ingredients, fasting, chewing and eating in a calm state. But I didn't see you talk about a nighttime supplementation. Like, I'm a huge fan of magnesium oxide or like more forms of magnesium, like Magnesium Breakthrough. I actually take like a double dose because I find that it really helps me go to the bathroom. And then when I travel, I use Triphala, which is the Indian Ayurvedic herb formulation, at night again, because I find pooping harder when I travel. Do you take any nighttime or morning supplements to move things along?

Derek Norsworthy [00:56:55]: Yeah, yeah. So I mean, I. I say digestion starts in the morning so I can kind of walk you through like, you know, kind of my morning water. My morning water is, you know, it's got all setting up for flushing. So I use. There's a product that Thorne has called SynaQuell. And it's kind of has like, you know, glutathione and ketones. And I use a little bit of it.

Derek Norsworthy [00:57:14]: I use some C60, I use molecular hydrogen. And all this is all like a 32 ounce glass of water. And I'll down that in the morning to kind of get things going and stimulate the digestion.

Ben Greenfield [00:57:24]: I do the same thing, by the way. No, I. I use hydrogen vitamin C and, and lukewarm water, because lukewarm really helps find the same thing. 32 ounces massive mug. When I get up, well, I have.

Derek Norsworthy [00:57:35]: To give a shameless plug. And that is Greenfield structured water that I drink in the morning. So I've got one of the, the Greenfield water systems structured under the sink. And I'll get that thing going and vortex it in the morning and it's kind of, you know. So I set up the digestive ritual starting in the morning and then like you said, like in the afternoon, like usually around dinner I'll start, you know, depending on how my digestion feels. I'll use like the Triphala and then I consistently use Mag Breakthrough like it's been a staple in my diet for years. And I use the, I use the digestive enzymes from bioptimizers as well. And I have no affiliation with bio optimizers, but their stuff just works.

Derek Norsworthy [00:58:15]: And a lot of people, you know, as we talk about, you know there's, there's a whole chapter in the book on toxic load and as if you use some of the things that like, you know that like the bio optimizers products for HCl, like the HCl Breakthrough is part of our routine and that helps with moving, you know, all those things through the system. So my stack is typically, you know, the digestive enzymes from, from, from bioptimizers. I use their Mag Breakthrough and I also use the I. The Kion Lean really helps too. For me. I use it before meals. So I actually love that. And I, and I've noticed that a change in my digestion with the Kion Lean.

Derek Norsworthy [00:58:52]: So I don't know what you have in there but, but, or I have an idea, but I think it actually helps with reducing like if there's any type of parasites or candida. I don't know if you've ever looked into that, but from my knowledge I feel like it's helping with any of that overgrowth that could be in there. Like a maintenance thing.

Ben Greenfield [00:59:08]: Yeah, Kion Lean is comprised mostly of things that support healthy blood sugar management. Notice how I said that properly for the FDA. And bitter melon is one of the components of it which can also have theoretically things like anti parasitic activity or assisting with digestion, et cetera. Because it's bitter. Right. And you also made a good point. If you eat an appreciable amount of protein, which you should taking protein, digestive enzymes, especially if you're after the age of about 40 because your pancreatic enzyme production will decrease. That's also something that can help with bowel movements.

Ben Greenfield [00:59:43]: You mentioned you take HCl to help with stomach acid production and protein and nutrient assimilation after eating. I'm more of like a shot of apple cider vinegar guy for something like that, which is pretty easy. And then the last thing I'll give a shout out to is something called TUDCA, which improves bile flow and assists with liver function. And I now take capsule of TUDCA with dinner. The company LEVELUP Health. They have a fantastic. For anybody has gut issues, their Gut Repair formula is incredible. But they also have a super like maximum strength TUDCA that you take.

Ben Greenfield [01:00:18]: The first time you sent it to me, I took it and kind of gross, but I said I filled the toilet bowl a little bit ago. This time it was like almost to the point where I couldn't sit on the toilet without hitting my own poo. I filled the toilet bowl so much. So TUDCA, be careful. It will completely clean you out. But just one capsule. And again, I like the LEVELUP Health stuff. It's incredible as an addition for liver and gallbladder.

Derek Norsworthy [01:00:43]: I'll. I'll have to jump in the pulpit with you right here and, and high five you and begin to preach too. So I just, you know, being a. With looking at my methylation status and knowing about, you know, how my body handles toxins, I just, I did some, some recent testing and noticed that my mercury levels and my mold levels were starting to kind of creep back up again. And so I introduced TUDCA into the diet. Wow. I mean, it's like, it's complete game changer for me. Like, I noticed, you know, a demonstrable difference probably in the last four to six weeks since I've started taking it.

Derek Norsworthy [01:01:17]: But it really helps. I mean, I'm using some other things as well, just like little mild binders and like using some black seed oil. But in particular, like, the star of the show has been TUDCA. And actually, like, I feel like I could, you know, if you've, if you've ever done like and. Well, I'll say if you've ever done, if anybody out there has ever done something like IBU or ozone therapy when you actually clean out the blood. The first time I did it, I felt like I felt my whole. My liver and my, you know, my spleen, they all felt like they were like just radiating with like just, I don't know, just purity. And I get a very milder effect of that from TUDCA just using it daily.

Derek Norsworthy [01:01:55]: So I think it's a game changer for anybody out there. I would totally recommend giving it a try. It's helped me tremendously.

Ben Greenfield [01:02:01]: Yeah, it's fantastic. The book Toilet Yoga Biohack Your Bowel Movement pretty pink color, which is relaxing. According to that old book called drunk tank pink, they paint the drunk tanks in prison isolation tanks in prison pink because it's calming. Your book is calming. So maybe even keeping Derek's book in the bathroom and not even reading it will help you to poop. But I will link to Derek's book everything else we talked about in this show, all the resources at bengreenfieldlife.com slash toiletyoga where you can also leave your own comments, questions, feedback, etc. And I'd be happy to check them out. I usually read all the comments because I really like to see what you guys think and interact with you there.

Ben Greenfield [01:02:43]: So BenGreenfieldLife.com slash toilet yoga and Derek, thanks so much man. It was. It was an incredible chat and super fun shooting the shit with you.

Derek Norsworthy [01:02:53]: You. You beat me to the punchline. Thanks Ben. I really appreciate you brother.

Ben Greenfield [01:02:57]: All right, later folks. I'm Ben Greenfield along with Derek Norsworthy, author of Toilet Yoga. Signing out from Ben BenGreenfieldLife.com have an.

Derek Norsworthy [01:03:05]: Incredible week to discover even more tips, tricks, hacks and content to become the most complete, boundless version of you, visit BenGreenfieldLife.com in compliance with the FTC guidelines, please assume the following about links and posts on this site. Most of the links going to products are often affiliate links, of which I receive a small commission from sales of certain items. But the price is the same for you and sometimes I even get to share a unique and somewhat significant discount with you. In some cases, I might also be an investor in a company I mention. I'm the founder, for example, of Kion llc, the makers of Kion branded supplements and products, which I talk about quite a bit. Regardless of the relationship, if I post or talk about an affiliate link to a product, it is indeed something I personally use, support and with full authenticity and transparency recommend. In good conscience, I personally vet each and every product that I talk about. My first priority is providing valuable information and resources to you that help you positively optimize your mind, body and spirit.

Derek Norsworthy [01:04:16]: And I'll only ever link to products or resources, affiliate or otherwise, that fit within this purpose. So there's your fancy legal disclaimer.