The Official Edgy, Explicit & Epic Podcast With Me & The MindPump Crew: Longevity, Religion, Parenting, Biohacking, The Joe Rogan Debates, Snake Oil, Pseudoscience & Beyond.

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Warning: today's podcast episode gets a bit…well edgy – even explicit.

See, every so often, I get together with my fellow fitness-freak podcasting friends – the good fellas from the MindPump studios – and we take a rather rough around the edges, occasionally drug or alcohol infused, definitely entertaining and edgy foray into longevity to life to religion to parenting to biohacking and beyond. These always turn out to be incredibly popular podcast episodes, and this one promises to be just that.

The hosts of Mindpump claim to “pull back the curtain on the mythology, snake oil and pseudo-science that pervades the fitness industry and present science-backed solutions that result in increased muscular development and performance while simultaneously emphasizing health.”

Take a gander at these fellas…as they seem to have the body composition and transformation equation pretty well figured out. They include…

Sal DiStefano. Sal was 14 years old when he touched his first weight and from that moment he was hooked. Growing up asthmatic, frequently sick and painfully skinny, Sal saw weightlifting as a way to change his body and his self-image. In the beginning, Sal’s body responded quickly to his training but then his gains slowed and then stopped altogether. Not one to give up easily, he began reading every muscle building publication he could get his hands on to find ways to bust through his plateau. He read Arnold’s Encyclopedia of Bodybuilding, Mentzer’s Heavy Duty, Kubrick’s Dinosaur Training, and every muscle magazine he could find; Weider’s Muscle and Fitness, Flex, Iron Man and even Muscle Media 2000. Each time he read about a new technique or methodology he would test it out in the gym. At age 18 his passion for the art and science of resistance training was so consuming that he decided to make it his profession and become a personal trainer. By 19 he was managing health clubs and by 22 he owned his own gym. After 17 years as a personal trainer he has dedicated himself to bringing science and TRUTH to the fitness industry.

Adam Schafer is a IFBB men’s physique Pro and fitness expert. Adam made his entrance into the fitness world 14 years ago and has continued to send shock waves throughout the community ever since. He is a man of many talents who wears many hats. He is first and foremost a certified fitness expert who has an insatiable desire to help people in need of major lifestyle changes and daily accountable motivation. He is also incredibly driven entrepreneur and business minded individual with a vision that continually challenges his colleagues and peers to think bigger and achieve more.




Justin Andrews has an incredible passion to disrupt the personal training industry and create ground breaking programs and tools that fitness professionals and clients alike can benefit from. The fitness industry in general needs a massive face lift to speak more to the generation growing up with a more advanced technology tool kit. Justin’s approach is to create programs that utilize technology as it advances and cut through the millions of options people face everyday when seeking specific information relating to their fitness needs. The great thing about where we are today is how easy it is to access information, the bad part about accessing all this information is how much misinformation is out there to weed through. As a health and fitness professional with a proven track record here in the heart of the Silicon Valley, Justin Andrews will keep working tirelessly to keep people educated and connected to quality personal trainers long into the future.


Doug Egge received his first gym membership as a gift from his dad when he was 16 years old. Rocky III had just come out and he was determined to build a body like Stallone. It never happened. Despite following the advice of muscle magazines and busting his butt in the gym, Doug saw minimal gains over the next 30 years. Then he was introduced to Sal Di Stefano by his chiropractor who recommended he work with Sal to eliminate muscle imbalances that were causing lower back issues. Sal’s unique approach, often 180 degrees different from what Doug had read in books and magazines, produced more results in a matter of months than he had experienced in the 30 years prior. Doug with an extensive marketing and media production background, recognized Sal’s unique gift and perspective was missing from the fitness world and suggested that they should join forces. Doug and Sal have since produced life-altering programs such as the No BS 6-Pack Formula and MAPS Anabolic. Doug is very pleased to have the opportunity to work with Adam and Justin as Producer of MindPump.

In this epic 2+ hour conversation with the MindPump guys, you'll discover:

-Health hazards of the new nicotine vapor pens…7:40

  • Hyper-concentrated amounts of THC. Nearly 100%
  • There's such thing as too much of a good thing (essential oils)
  • St. John's wort an anti-depressant; put it in vodka for 4 weeks, then strain it.

-Observation: as humans have manipulated nature, all of a sudden we have a bunch of diseases to worry about…10:45

  • Two beliefs: creationism vs. evolutionism.
  • Means of concentrating elements have changed.

-Synthetic THC, gravity bombs, etc…13:45

  • A kid took two hits and lost his mind; scary thing to watch.
  • Deaths associated with synthetic cannabinoids
  • It's impossible to kill yourself with real cannabis
  • You want a total plant extract; CBD provides benefits but works better with other cannabinoids present.
  • Actually grows new brain cells.

-Oversaturation of cannabis-related products in the marketplace…17:00

  • If you use a lot of it, you could be getting your body to produce less natural cannabinoids.
  • CBD protein, pre-workout, products.
  • Ben has a high tolerance for stimulants like coffee and caffeine due to his upbringing.
  • Varying reactions to caffeine/CBD combinations.
  • Don't take grapefruit with medication.

-How I and my kids are increasing our levels of BDNF, which are naturally low…22:05

  • Drinking lion's mane tea; using the sauna 3x/week.
  • Side effects of low levels of BDNF.
    • Not enough Vitamin D
    • Not optimal cognitive ability
  • The ins and outs of “smart drugs.” I'm not as into them as I once was.

-What it was like to start a supplement company, and a progress report 1 year into it…27:30

  • Began with just a few supplements: Serum, Flex, etc.
  • I don't want to be “the face” of the company. I want the products to stand for themselves. I'm behind the scenes, formulating the supplements.
  • We partner with some companies, like Thorne. Their labels contain the Kion logo.
  •  The process from idea to opening the company…
    •  Took around 2 1/2 years.
    • We follow books like Traction, and Rocket Fuel, EO Systems
    • I formulate supplements because I want it, and figure there are others that need it too.
    • Kion headquarters are in Boulder, CO; we use Slack and Voxer to operate remotely.
  • Best selling product is the Clean Energy Bar.
  • Rather than focus on “long tail” concepts, I focus on specific pain points: sleep, longevity, joints, etc.
  • We want people to have just a few supplements in their cupboard.
  • You have to create a high number of SKU's, OR have a huge following in one specific area.

-The financial investments and human labor that went into founding Kion…41:30

  • Initial investment: $100k from a friend, who is an investment partner.
  • I invest in a lot of nutrition, fitness, bone broth, etc. companies.
  • Kion has a board of 5 business-savvy members.
  • Everything else I've financed personally.
  • We're in the green less than a year into it.
  • Same growth curve as companies that have been around for 3+ years. Due to existing traction from the podcast, email list, etc.
  • Relationship capital is HUGE. It's not about cold calling…
  • I have a spreadsheet that's a virtual rolodex of influencers
    • Address to send free product
    • Ask them to share on social media
    • Relationships make it easy to decide who to listen to, what products to promote, etc.
  • Having assistants who make our schedule is actually far less stressful than feeling like we're in control of everything.
  • I've successfully built my business hiring experts who can focus on just one particular element of the business. i.e. scheduling, podcasts, etc. (H/T to Gary Keller's The One Thing.)
  • It's futile to build a huge following on social media and promoting products. Although it's a temporary success, what do you really have to be proud of? It's an unsustainable business model.
  • I'm more concerned with creating a legacy with Kion, my books, podcast, etc.

-The risk in terms of your own sanity in being consumed with your appearance…55:00

  • Look at celebrities using botox, plastic surgery.
  • The body changes, ages. You realize money isn't that important.
  • Focus on building YOU, rather than your image.
  • No one on their death bed wishes they made more money. They wish they had more family time, practicing spirituality: meditation, gratitude, connecting with a higher power.
  • There's a lot to be gained by abstaining from certain comforts of life. Delayed gratification. How do you want to be remembered? What legacy do you want to build?

-Balancing scientific truth and spiritual truth…1:04:00

  • Light is the first thing created. Research has shown that the primary way in which cells communicate is via biophotonic signaling.
  • There's a reason I'm not paleo…
  • The first people were gardeners; EVERYTHING was good.
  • Science itself eliminates the idea that you can have only science and no moral code.
  • We have a built-in morality that some scientists claim to disprove.

-What kinds of things do people hire me for?

  • How to exercise and stay in shape for leisure activities and meet business demands.
  • Blood and biomarker interpretation.
  • Create meal plans based on their own lifestyle.
  • I'm the CEO of their health.
  • Consult with pro sports teams: Miami Heat.
    • Optimize light
    • HEPA air filters
    • Micro adjustments that take a team from good to great.
  • Mostly for personal health reasons, rather than outperforming competitors.

-Things I do to mitigate jet lag…1:25:45

  • Circadian cues: light, movement, food.
    • Get into natural light ASAP; block LED lights.
    • Avoid eating on the airplane as much as possible. Recommend macadamia nuts, gum, stevia, electrolyte tablets. Wait until the first regular time to eat a meal. Ex. You land at 2 am, wait until normal breakfast time to eat. DON'T SKIP BREAKFAST!
    • Mimic your movements in the new location, i.e. exercise time. Look for a park; walk in your bare feet. Find a sauna and pool.
  • The Last Resource You'll Ever Need on Sleep.

-The newest science in anti-aging and longevity research…1:36:30

  • Calorie restriction memetics Resveratrol, Astragalus
  • Using fasting to build muscle mass.
  • Interval training.
  • When you drop your calories, your metabolism adjusts. Staggered fasting helps mitigate that adjustment.
  • NAD precursors: Tru Niagen, NiaCel, nicotinamide riboside (NR)
  • Primary signaling molecules in our body are free radicals.
  • Fecal transplants.

-What are some things I've eliminated from my protocol?…1:58:52

-Whether I've ever experimented with my cholesterol levels for strength increases…2:04:34

  • Is any increase in strength because of fat-soluble vitamins, or because it's an increase in cholesterol?
  • I try to keep my total cholesterol above 200.

-The significance of consuming the RIGHT minerals into your diet…2:08:30

  • Your body needs to be rich in minerals in order to respond to light signals.
    • Drink salt water vs. tap water. Celtic salt is higher than other types of salt.
  • Why a couple of dill kosher pickles relieves a headache.
  • On a quarterly basis, I test for hydroxy vitamin D, calcium, red blood cell magnesium, CO2, chloride levels. I pay the most attention to chloride levels and magnesium.
  • Cramping during exercise is rarely due to mineral depletion or dehydration.
    • Due to an alpha motor neuron reflex.
    • To reverse this cramp, taste something incredibly salty or incredibly spicy.
    • The taste causes a motor neuron reflex and relieves the cramp.

-My reaction to being labeled the “pseudoscience guy”…2:20:30

  • Religion and spirituality are very difficult to prove.
  • Some things such as cells communicating via biophotonics light signaling have been proven since the 1700's; it's just not common knowledge.
  • People are afraid of it, or it disrupts the status quo.
  • There's a certain amount of “industry manipulation” on the information we receive.

-My opinion on the upcoming debates between Layne Norton/Dominic D'Agostino and Chris Kresser/Joel Kahn on the Joe Rogan Podcast…2:27:30

Click here for the full written transcript of this podcast episode.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

-The MAPS training plans designed by the MindPump crew for fat loss, muscle gain, mobility, sports performance and more.

-My previous 3 podcasts with the MindPump guys:

  1. The Mysterious Kuwait Muscle-Building Phenomenon, The Too-Much-Protein Myth, Anabolic Triggering Sessions & More With The MindPump Podcast Crew.
  2. The Mysterious Micro-Workouts, Turning On Your Butt, Overdosing With Melatonin & More With The MindPump Guys
  3. Six-Egg Breakfasts, Ketosis For Bodybuilders, Resetting Weed Tolerance, Kratom Experimentation & Much More With The Mindpump Guys!

-Kion Flex


-Book: Perennial Seller by Ryan Holiday

-Book: The Art of Manliness

Own the Day by Aubrey Marcus

Pau D' Arco Bark Tea

Hello Ned -15% off first purchase

Four Sigmatic

Brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF)

Thorne Supplements

WellnessFX Lab Testing

-Article: The Big Problem With Gyms & Why You Need to Exercise Outdoors

-Book: Never Eat Alone by Keith Ferrazzi

-Website: The Art of Manliness | Men's Interests and Lifestyle

-Book: Sex at Dawn: How We Mate, Why We Stray, and What It Means for Modern Relationships by Cacilda Jethá and Christopher Ryan


State of the Art Led Circadian Lighting Systems

Molecular Hydrogen Institute

-Book: Beyond Training: Mastering Endurance, Health & Life by Ben Greenfield

The Last Resource On Sleep You’ll Ever Need: Ben Greenfield’s Ultimate Guide To Napping, Jet Lag, Sleep Cycles, Insomnia, Sleep Food, Sleep Supplements, Exercise Before Bed & Much, Much More!

Vuori Clothing

-Mind Pump Ep. 865: Stan Efferding

-Video:  How to Convert NR into NAD for Mitochondrial Health and Longevity

Helminthic therapy

Episode Sponsors:

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Organifi Gold.  Pain-soothing herbs, antioxidants, & phyto-nutrients all in one delicious, soothing “Golden Milk”. Use the code here at checkout for a cool 20% discount.

Clear Light Saunas. Advanced technology…for your good health. See why Clear Light Jacuzzi Saunas are unsurpassed. Use my link and get $500 off the regular price of a Clear Light Sauna.

New Man Revolution Never worry about your shower and bathroom products ever again! New Man Revolution delivers the best quality men’s products, like men’s shampoo, body wash and shave butter, right to your door. Use code: BEN for 15% off one-time orders or code: BENCLUB for 25% off subscriptions. Guaranteed to give you healthier feeling and looking skin, hair and scalp or your money back.

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18 thoughts on “The Official Edgy, Explicit & Epic Podcast With Me & The MindPump Crew: Longevity, Religion, Parenting, Biohacking, The Joe Rogan Debates, Snake Oil, Pseudoscience & Beyond.

  1. Jett Mayer says:

    Those resources are pretty useful, I will definitely check them out. I can also recommend you for your homework

  2. Jett Mayer says:

    wow, all the topics are really popular and useful. I wrote some articles about them for

  3. Kimberly says:

    Just found your podcast and love it, paid the subscription and am excited. You were talking about CBD and caffeine. I started putting CBD in my coffee in the mornings and seems to be working.

  4. Sandbox says:

    Hi Ben. Thank you for a great podcast! Please clarify, would the TA-65 (mentioned in podcast) be allowed in competition?

  5. Shana Guilbert says:

    Ben- you mentioned using Lions Mane for your children to support cognitive processing. I’m very interested in this topic. I am also wondering what Lions Mane product you recommend. Thanks!

  6. Adam says:

    The headaches are most likely caused by EMF from phones and wifi. Ben you were on point about the magnesium and the headaches. EMF from wifi interacts with calcium channel and creates ROS, magnesium is a natural calcium channel blocker.

  7. Wayne Peterson says:

    Very interesting and informative discussion but I have to say that all the Bible stuff was the least interesting part. The Bible is interesting, just not how it relates to Paleo or home lighting.

  8. Damien says:

    Ben, you gotta check the pronunciation of aspartame. And the definition of pseudo science.

  9. Margaretha K. - Norway says:

    Hi Ben! Great podcast as always. I have been wondering lately if I’m doing more harm than good when I’m taking Qualia. I know you’ve recommended and praised Qualia in the past. The two months I’ve been on it really has made a huge difference in mental clarity and just overall smoothness in my mood and emotional life. The reason I’m getting worried is that you mention that tampering with the brain’s natural ability to produce certain neurotransmitters/signals by digesting “foreign” substances can lead to an inability to produce the chemicals on one’s own. In this podcast you talk about microdosing with LSD etc., but does the same apply to Qualia?

    1. Neurohacker says:

      Great question and this is why Qualia Mind is designed to be taken 5 days on and 2 days off each week. Cycling maximizes the benefits while also preventing desensitization. It does not matter if the 2 “off-cycle” days are consecutive or apart, so long as they happen each week.

      The only ingredient that produces a come-down effect when not taken is caffeine. Our product contains 90mg of caffeine – about the amount in a cup of black tea, or about a third as much as in a tall Starbucks coffee. Many people will still use some other caffeine source (coffee, etc) on the off-cycle days to prevent this. For maximum benefits, we recommend that people cycle off all caffeine (including this product) for one week every three months or so.

      1. Margaretha K - Norway says:

        I see. Are there any benefits from cycling even more than that (for instance a week off?) Does the effects of Qualia Mind (which is the one I’m taking) increase if I take it with fat? (For instance a cup of Bulletproof coffee or tea with MCT oils?) It says it should be taken on its own on the label, but I’ve been wondering about this for a while.

        1. Neurohacker says:

          Yes, we do recommend that people cycle off of all caffeine including qualia for approximately 1 week every 3 months for best results.

          For proper absorption and optimal results, Qualia is best taken on an empty stomach, so pairing it with bulletproof coffee would interfere with that. We suggest keeping the 30 min. minimal wait before adding any food or drink, since that’s the time it takes water to leave your stomach, so all the ingredients are diluted and absorbed by your system.

  10. Jon says:

    Love when you and the mind pump guys get together. I think you all together put out some great info and I think I laughed out loud at least three times.

  11. Mathieu Crete says:

    Hi Ben, great podcast as usual. Could you tell me which lab did you go in Canada for you test ? I was about to order a 23 and me and I live in Canada. I would like to know more if possible. Thank you very much !

    1. Kotoula says:

      Hi Ben, I’m in Canada too, and I want to know the lab you got the text results. Please tell us! Thanks :)

  12. Annie says:

    Hi Ben. I really enjoyed this podcast. In regards to the salty/spicy taste to use when muscle cramping during physical exercise, you mentioned that the reason you cramp during physical exercise is because it’s your body’s way of preventing your over-used muscle from tearing. So if you prevent the cramp via the salty/spicy taste, wouldn’t you, essentially, be increasing the chances of that muscle tearing?

  13. Kyle says:

    I have been getting close to ordering a 23andMe test. You mention ways in which it comes up short on SNPs it tests. Do you have suggestion for a more thorough mail-in test that will still give me the raw data to do with as I please?

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