Ben Greenfield [00:00:00]: My name is Ben Greenfield, and on this episode of the Ben Greenfield Life Podcast

Maximilian Freiler [00:00:05]: The whim of epic is a very simple, a very simple constellation of three components. Like we said, the breathwork, the cold exposure, and the mindset. So the way how you are actually doing it, and I think what we experience in these retreats is also the power of the community. So doing these things together, like a cold exposure, like a real physical challenge, or going into very vulnerable states like in the breathwork together with a bunch of people, this is where really, I think, just from experience, the magic is happening.

Ben Greenfield [00:00:40]: Fitness, nutrition, biohacking, longevity, life optimization, spirituality, and a whole lot more. Welcome to the Ben Greenfield Life Show. Are you ready to hack your life?

Ben Greenfield [00:00:53]: Let's do this. Well, it has been years and years and years. I don't know how long since I interviewed Wim Hof. A lot of people now know who Wim Hof is. Even when I interviewed him years ago, he was pretty popular as the cold and breath work and immune system reinvention guru. Well, it turns out I also don't think this is any secret. I've been doing breathwork and cold plunging for a long time. And even before I met Wim and interviewed him on my podcast, I'd been swimming a lot in cold water without realizing I was doing cryotherapy and cold thermogenesis.

Ben Greenfield [00:01:38]: I was just training for triathlon and jumping in frigid rivers and lakes because I had to, not because it was trendy or cool or anything like that. And kind of the same for breath work. I was just doing it to enhance my lung capacity and vo two max and inspiratory and expiratory muscle strength for competition. But since then, I've learned a lot more about the science of breath work, the science of cold. I've done a lot of podcasts about it, but I'm doing a special podcast on this whole topic today for two reasons. First, this is just absolutely great information for anybody. I've been training my own sons in cold and breath work since they were very young. Just getting them very comfortable, being cold, getting into cold plunges, tweaking their physiology and their psychology with breath work.

Ben Greenfield [00:02:22]: And I really think that it's one of the best things that a human being can have a working knowledge of. In addition, later this year, in December, I am going to be in Germany taking a small, select group of individuals, possibly you, if you're listening in or watching an actual retreat, a Wim Hof retreat in Germany and the mountains of Germany. And you're going to learn a lot more about that on this podcast as well because my guests are going to be hosting that retreat along with me. They're Michael Nuss and Maximilian Freiler. And Michael and Maximilian have hosted retreats before, in Germany, in Austria, in Poland, on breath work, on cold exposure, on mindset, even things like sweat lodges and apnea training and movement. Michael has written a book, Alive: The Real Power of Ice Bathing. I'm going to let him tell you his story. He's now one of the most active Wim Hof instructors in all of Europe, hosting around 20 retreats a year.

Ben Greenfield [00:03:22]: So we're working with the best of the best on this retreat that we have coming up in December. And then Maximilian is also a leading Wim Hof instructor and has a pretty unique path himself in the realm of personal and spiritual development, originally coming from the field of finance and investment banking. And now he's done a lot of study with people like Laird Hamilton and Edo Portal and of course, Wim Hof also. So stay tuned to this podcast for two reasons. If you want to learn more about breathwork and cold and how you can use it, and if you want to join me Max, and Michael in Germany, December 11 through the 15th, all the show notes are going to be at BenGreenfieldlife.com/wimhofpodcast. That's BenGreenfieldlife.com/wimhofpodcast. If you want to access anything, get into the retreat, check out more details, etcetera. So, Max, and Michael, welcome to the show.

Michael Nuss [00:04:16]: Thank you so much. Thank you, Ben, for the nice introduction.

Ben Greenfield [00:04:20]: Yeah, I'm excited to talk to you guys. And I guess, you know, I realize that you each probably have your own personal story, even though you're sitting, as we established before we started recording so that we can get both of you in the video, awkwardly close to each other for today's show. I don't think that you both have the same background story when it comes to how you got into all this. So I'll let you guys choose who wants to go first. But I'd love to hear kind of how you just discovered this whole idea of Wim Hof, breathwork, cold, etcetera.

Michael Nuss [00:04:50]: Yeah, I mean, we are close right now together, but we also are close in everyday life because we work a lot together. And actually, we met in the instruction program of the Wim Hof Academy.

Ben Greenfield [00:05:01]: Well, I should clarify, by the way, before you keep going, you got to introduce yourself. You got to say who's who.

Michael Nuss [00:05:05]: My name is Michael. And yes, you're Michael. And yes, I got into this whole thing because actually I was struggling myself at the time. I discovered the Vermouth method. I was working as a social worker in Hamburg. It's a big city, very crowded. As a social worker, I had a lot of stress, and I did not have a healthy lifestyle at all. With time, my energy levels were decreasing my vitality was just going down, and I started to develop a depression.

Michael Nuss [00:05:39]: And I was already at the point where I realized, I really have to do something about this because I don't want to live like this. So I was already trying, you know, like going into nature. I did therapy and yoga and stuff like that. And then this time I saw Wim Hof on YouTube, and I saw his vitality. I saw him with a red skin on the top of the mountain, you know, and I thought, I also want this, this unblocked aliveness, this vitality. So I became a Wim Hof instructor. I started practicing it for myself. And this whole journey of personal development was skyrocketed by this because I believe if you activate the vitality, everything else becomes easier.

Michael Nuss [00:06:21]: And so I changed a lot in my life. I changed in the outside world, like where I live. I live now in the mountains, in nature. I'm married now. I have much healthier relationships, but also, and maybe even more importantly, I changed a lot on the inside. And, yeah, also here, the van Hof method helped me tremendously. I would never have believed it was possible to feel how I feel today, eight years ago, when this whole journey started. And now I live in Germany, in the southern area and the Alps, and the Bavarian Alps.

Michael Nuss [00:06:51]: And there I host most of my retreats.

Ben Greenfield [00:06:54]: How about you, Max?

Maximilian Freiler [00:06:56]: Yes. So my journey with the Wim Hof Method started seven years ago, actually, in the US. I was in a very small surfer town in Trestles, and in a very random moment, someone showed me this breathing technique. And I didn't know anything about Wim Hof. I didn't know anything about breathwork. I just heard or tried a little bit of meditation. And I remember this moment clearly. It was really like a door opener to my inside world.

Maximilian Freiler [00:07:23]: And then I realized that there is a lot to discover inside. And I realized also after the breath work session that, well, the way I felt, also the way I felt my body, the way I could hold my breath, it was just so obvious that something really very powerful happened. And in this time, I was already, I was still pursuing this path of becoming this investment banking career path invested a lot of time, a lot of money, and all of that. And then, whoa. I started realizing that I completely actually ignored what was going on inside of myself. And really, the Wim Hof Method is, like, I always describe it as, like, a sledgehammer to the inside world. And it was what I needed to kind of wake up a little bit and also start realizing that everything happens inside of myself. And from there on, my life just changed 180 degrees.

Maximilian Freiler [00:08:17]: And today, yes, a lot of other things. Of course, I studied in the meantime, but the Wim Hof Method was, for me, really just this door opener that I needed.

Ben Greenfield [00:08:26]: Well, I know that there's been a lot of controversy lately about the Wim Hof Method, and I'd actually love to get into that in a little bit. There was even an article that came out just a few days ago that was very juicy and very controversial when it comes to a lot of people who have questions about the safety of the Wim Hof protocol. But before we even tackle any of that, how would you actually describe the Wim Hof Method to people who aren't familiar with it?

Michael Nuss [00:08:55]: So the Wim Hof Method was developed by Wim Hof. He's a Dutch guy, and he holds 26 Guinness World Records, and he did all kinds of crazy stunts. Has the longest ice bed. He was swimming under the ice the longest distance. He ran a marathon in the desert without it, drinking water and more stuff like this. But at one point also, science got interested in him, and they studied his internal control, and they saw that he had more control than they thought is possible. For example, it's assumed that you cannot regulate your skin temperature. It's assumed that you cannot regulate your nervous system or your immune system.

Michael Nuss [00:09:41]: And with him, they found out, yeah, okay, he's actually able to do these kind of things, and he's also able to teach it to other people.

Ben Greenfield [00:09:48]: And what was that study actually looking at? How did they conduct that study?

Michael Nuss [00:09:53]: So, there were several kinds of studies. The first big one happened in 2012 when Wim Hof was injected with an E. Coli bacterium. So it's a bacterium that is not really active. It's just a shell, but the body reacts to it like to a real invader. So the immune system, goes up. It means the inflammation levels usually go up. And on the outside, you see that people start shivering.

Michael Nuss [00:10:18]: They get a headache, they just look sick for, like, around six to eight hours. With him, they did the same thing, and he applied the breath work, and with him, they saw he had increased levels of adrenaline and a lower inflammation. So this was the first thing. The second thing was he had an increase in white blood cell count. So this was the first study. But there were other studies where they, for example, put him into a suit of where water was pushed through warm water, then cold water, warm water, then cold water. And with every normal person, when the warm water comes, the skin temperature goes up. When the cold water comes, it goes down.

Michael Nuss [00:11:00]: And with him, on the first day, it was the same thing because they asked him not to do anything special. On the second day, they asked him to do his thing. And yes, he went into the tube, and they saw that the skim temperature stayed the same. It even increased a little bit when the cold water came. At the same time, they saw a stronger activity in the brain stem which usually also you don't have conscious access to. And because they did both one day without using his technique and one day with using it, they saw that actually there's this internal control to regulate the body heat and, for example, accessing the brain stem.

Ben Greenfield [00:11:39]: Okay, I've got a lot of questions. So, first of all, you said when they asked him to do his thing, what does that mean? What was the thing he was doing? And was it the same for the E. Coli study? And also this example of the cold water, warm water study that you brought.

Maximilian Freiler [00:11:53]: Up, that's a really interesting question, because people always ask, what should I do now that I'm able to do this? It's very interesting because, in the second study, Michael explained the study where with the temperature control, he couldn't do anything because he was in the fMRI, and the fMRI, you are not allowed to move inside. After all, they wanted to measure the brain waves inside. So you need to lay still. So he couldn't do him, like, what he's normally doing, this deep controlled hyperventilation. But what he was doing, he was just setting his intention. Beforehand, because I also asked him this question beforehand in the hotel, he did this breathing exercise, he also didn't know how to cope with this situation because he had never been in this situation before, but he just felt that he had the control inside, that he can do it. So he set this strong intention that when they pump the cold water through, he will bring up his. His body, his skin temperature. It was the skin temperature that they measured.

Maximilian Freiler [00:13:02]: And he just did this consciously with the intention. So there was no specific breathing technique at this moment. It was really the power of the mind and the power of setting this intention.

Ben Greenfield [00:13:14]: Yeah. By the way, that reminds me of another book by Maxwell Maltz called Psycho-Cybernetics. It's got the book that originated the idea of the inner game of tennis and the inner game of golf, meaning that through visualizing things that you've actually practiced in the past from a neuromuscular or motor standpoint, you can elicit a very similar biological response. Thus, you could practice your tennis serve, for example, while sitting on an airplane with your eyes closed, without an actual tennis racket or a ball. And it sounds like because Wim had practiced his protocol, which I do want to describe at some point as we go along here, he was able to elicit a similar biological response by simply visualizing the same protocol.

Maximilian Freiler [00:14:00]: I think so, too. It's like this neurological pathway to the deepest parts inside of your brain. And I think if you continuously practice things, then you gain the excess again. It's like, really the body. If you use it, if you don't use it, you lose it. And it's really like that, I think, on a neurological level. And if you're just continuously starting to practice this, of course, I think you get access much more controlled also to these deep layers inside that are said to be not able to control, like the immune system or the body temperature, which is the core in the core of the brain.

Ben Greenfield [00:14:38]: Okay, so for the fMRI study, he wasn't doing either breathwork or cold water. He was just laying there. How about for the E. Coli study? What was he doing in that?

Michael Nuss [00:14:48]: So he started doing the breath work already before he got the injection, and then he kept doing the breath work while the injection was there. And the same was happening when it was tested with people who are not Wim Hof. So I think they started roughly an hour before they got the injection, and then they continued breathing for another hour afterward. And they first did the classical Wim Hof breathwork protocol, which is 30 deep inhalations. Then you hold the breath after exhalation and hold it again after inhalation, and then they switch to another technique, which is an advanced technique called power breathing. And there you don't hold your breath after the exhalation. You hold it only after the inhalation.

Ben Greenfield [00:15:33]: Yes.

Maximilian Freiler [00:15:34]: And they all did this lying down in the hospital beds. And in 15 minutes. Within 15 minutes, their adrenaline levels, they. They spiked higher than the person doing the first time, a bungee jump, just lying down in a hospital bed.

Ben Greenfield [00:15:49]: And these individuals were also injected with the same E. Coli as Wim was injected with.

Michael Nuss [00:15:55]: Exactly.

Ben Greenfield [00:15:56]: And did they all see, or at least from a study standpoint, was there a significant impact on the majority of them, in terms of the immune system regulation that Wim also experienced?

Michael Nuss [00:16:07]: Yes, on all of them. It was a variation, but all of them had a significant impact.

Ben Greenfield [00:16:13]: Okay. And there was no cold water or cryotherapy involved with this?

Michael Nuss [00:16:16]: No, but they practiced with Wim Hof in Poland and did similar things that we will also do in our retreat in Germany. And there are several, several kinds of cold exposures. Also, we do visualizations in advance. And, yeah, the whole protocol, you know, and later the study was repeated because the scientists thought, okay, these people have practiced cold exposure in advance. Maybe this was also responsible for the effect. So they divided it by three. One group did only cold exposure to prepare. One group did only the breath work in the experiment, one group did nothing, and one group did the whole Wim Hof protocol.

Michael Nuss [00:16:58]: The result was that as well, the breath work as the cold exposure. Both affect the immune response, both have an anti-inflammatory effect. But the combination is the strongest. If you prepare in general, with cold exposure, and cold training, and combine it in an acute situation with a breastBerg, then you will dampen the immune response the most.

Ben Greenfield [00:17:22]: Okay, got it. Now, I know it's one thing to hear about it, it's the other thing to do it, and that's one reason we're doing this retreat. But you've mentioned a few times the whole Wim Hof protocol. We've talked a little bit. You alluded to the 30 breaths in and out, and the hold on the exhale and the hold on the inhale. But in terms of describing in more completeness what the actual whole Wim Hof protocol looks like, I'm just curious, like, what for you guys, on a day-to-day basis, when you wake up in the morning, what is the Wim Hof Method?

Maximilian Freiler [00:17:53]: The Wim Hof Method is a very simple, a very simple constellation of three components. Like we said, the breathwork, the cold exposure, and the mindset. So the way how you are doing it. And I think the mindset is the one that is, let's say, the least defined one. And I think what we experience in these retreats is also the power of the community. So doing these things together, like a cold exposure, like a real physical challenge, or going into very vulnerable states, like in the breathwork together with a bunch of people, this is where I think, just from experience, the magic is happening that people open up to each other, that people see that they are not alone. They feel connected to themselves, to the world, and other people, and they see that they are mostly not alone with these difficulties that we face in life. And this, in a paradoxical way, boosts our confidence and also our belief, our outlook on life in general.

Maximilian Freiler [00:19:00]: And this is such a positive reinforcement loop in our mind. So I think people who practice the Wim Hof Method by themselves, they usually have a different experience when they start practicing together in a group. The effects that this method has in the insights, just become a new interpretation when you experience this in the power of the community. So this community part is really also like, we call it the official layer of the Wim Hof Method.

Ben Greenfield [00:19:33]: Yeah, I've experienced the same thing when practicing with myself versus practicing with my sons, my 16-year-old sons, who are also going to be at this retreat along with us. And I'm curious what your take on that is. Why is it that breathwork seems more powerful? And I would say the same for cold therapy as well. When you do it with other people, is it the accountability? Is it similar to a workout where when you're doing something hard and other people are doing it along with you, you feel a little less isolated and a little more supportive? Is there something going on with the brain wave or the heart rate variability, electrical signals within the space where it's being done together? Or what do you hypothesize is going on there with the community component?

Michael Nuss [00:20:17]: Yeah, I think everything that you said, because, you know, we are deeply social, social beings, and I think going also into the breathwork together, we enter deeper inside ourselves, and the nervous system is also changing. So in the breath work, we first activate the sympathetic nervous system with deep breathing. Later, when we hold our breath, we go deeply into a parasympathetic state. And I think also the nervous systems, they are connected to each other and also attune with each other. And the one thing is that you can achieve strong physical sensations with this, which you do it in a group. People say, like, yeah, tingling stronger. I have stronger effects on the physical layer, but also if the group setting feels safe, what often happens is touching the emotional layer. And I believe when one person dares to open up, to let go, it often opens also the door for.

Maximilian Freiler [00:21:21]: Other people to do the same.

Michael Nuss [00:21:23]: And this is where it gets really juicy, because I think in this moment, things really can change on the inside.

Ben Greenfield [00:21:30]: Yeah, I've done combo frog poison and ayahuasca medicine with other people, and I don't enjoy that. Too much purging and puking and being in a very, like, out-of-state, out-of-control experience in a room full of other people. But breathwork seems different. You know, breath work, there is an emotional purging that occurs, but it's one of the group activities. I would say working out would also fall into that category. And cold therapy and sweat lodges, by the way, which I want to get into, that I don't mind doing with other people. You know, even though I'm a. I'm kind of an introverted guy.

Ben Greenfield [00:22:05]: These are things that would all fall into the category. Things I enjoy swinging kettlebells, cold therapy, sweat lodges, or heat or saunas, and breath work. So back to the root of my question, which I still want to unpack just a little bit more for you guys. You wake up in the morning and you say to your friend or someone who asks you, I follow the Wim Hof Method. What does that look like? Is there something you're doing every day or every week when it comes to waking up or at some point during the day, doing breath work, following that with cold, or doing some form of heat? You know, what does a sample week of someone who follows the Wim Hof Method look like?

Michael Nuss [00:22:45]: So the basic Wim Hof Method protocol that I follow is I wake up. My wife is also a Wim Hof Method instructor. So we both go into it right away. We always start with the breathwork. I've been doing this now for eight years. I do this every morning and afterward right away.

Ben Greenfield [00:23:03]: Meaning, like, you're still in bed? You're still in bed. Or you get up and, like, have a glass of water, find a special place outdoors or in the basement or whatever, and then do it.

Michael Nuss [00:23:11]: Yeah, you know, maybe I go pee and have a sip of water, but I do it in the bed.

Ben Greenfield [00:23:16]: So for the breath work, what are you doing? Like, how many rounds? For how long is that?

Michael Nuss [00:23:21]: Well, I almost. Yeah, I always do, like, more than three rounds, up to five or six rounds, depending how much time I have. So this would take 15 to 30 minutes, roughly. The goal is directly to go into the cold exposure afterwards. But you have to understand, also, I'm lying there with my wife, and if you breathe a lot, you know, you go into the body, and you're lying there together. So sometimes, also, before we go into the discomfort, we go into the comfort together, because it's also a great way to connect if you breathe together.

Ben Greenfield [00:23:52]: Absolutely. And by the way, I get what you're saying. There's one app that we use, my wife and I called other shit. And it has partner based breath work protocols on there. It incorporates whim off, you know, pranayama power breathing, box breathing, a whole range of different breath work activities. But for. I absolutely agree. For foreplay, you know, in terms of the nitric oxide production, the connectedness, the breathe, even sometimes we'll do it with our legs intertwined sitting in bed.

Ben Greenfield [00:24:21]: Brush your teeth first, folks, if you're listening in, in and out of each other's mouth as we're doing the breathing into each other's faces. And it's. It's fantastic for a partner connectedness. I absolutely agree. So, yeah, I could see if you're doing it with your partner in bed in the morning, there being a possible physical delay of gain before moving on to the cold.

Michael Nuss [00:24:40]: Exactly. I mean, there's other protocols. We can go maybe another time into it or when we meet each other, but yes, then we go into the. I go outside. There's an outside shower. I also chose my place to live next to a river. So most of the days I do an outside shower, and roughly once a week, I go into the river. And the river also stays cold in the summertime because I live in the mountains.

Maximilian Freiler [00:25:06]: Yeah, maybe I also share. So usually I also do, when I wake up in the morning, the first thing I do is I usually sit up because I tend to fall asleep if I'm lying down. So it helps me, really to sit up. And usually, I start by doing nothing. Just did nothing and just checked in with me to understand how was my sleep, how am I feeling, how is the state of my nervous system and so on. And I think it's so beneficial for me to just get an idea of how am I doing today because it's different every day, every morning. But then I can adjust to what I need. And sometimes it's just doing nothing and observing the breath.

Maximilian Freiler [00:25:46]: And sometimes I need a little bit of an activation or I need a little bit. I feel a little bit low. Then doing some rounds of breath work helps me. And I do usually less. I do very slow kind of breathing, deep breathing, maybe two, maximum of three rounds of breathing. And this then really helps me to get started because of the adrenaline spike and also of the connection, just feeling the body sensations, feeling connected to myself. And then I also, like Michael, live very close to a lake just 100 meters away. And usually I get up in the morning.

Maximilian Freiler [00:26:22]: I do some stretches outside, so there's some time in between. It's not so important that you go right after breathing into the cold exposure. You have to be also careful to really separate the Wim Hof breathing from the cold exposure. So how you breathe in the cold is completely different than actually when you do the Wim Hof Breathing that we know. And then I go into the cold leg, but also maybe two, or three minutes. Very easy, just to feel good, just to calm me down, just to know how I overcome this difficulty in the ice bath, but also not stay too long, because if I stay too long, then it sucks out the energy of myself, even after many years of practicing. So keeping it very easy, very doable, very integrated into the day. And in that way, I can also.

Maximilian Freiler [00:27:11]: I have done it for many, many years because just doing it in a adaptive way and also not in a forceful way, you know, like, not forcing. I have to do five minutes of cold exposure or so to keep it light. I think this is super important.

Ben Greenfield [00:27:27]: Yeah, it's a very good point. I'm glad you made it. Many people who vilify cold exposure are vilified. And what I think is, is not to overuse the term fairly vilified meaning excess sympathetic nervous system stimulation from plunging for five minutes or more at less than 40 degrees. Anyone who does that knows that you're distractingly uncomfortable and almost hyperstimulated for too long. I think there's a time and a place for that, in some cases for building stress resilience on an infrequent basis. But my own practice is very similar to that of yours, you guys. I don't do breathwork every day right now, although leading up to the retreat, I'll probably increase frequency just to feel a little bit better going to the retreat.

Ben Greenfield [00:28:14]: But right now I do three times a week. I do it in the sauna with my sons, usually in the morning around 8:00 or 8:30 or so. Before we start school and work, we heat the sauna. We go in, we do anywhere from 20 to 30 minutes. We'll use the other ship app, the breath source app, and sometimes the Wim Hof app. There's one instructor I've been following on YouTube recently, also a Wim Hof instructor named Kitaro Waga. I don't know if you guys know him, but I've been following a few of his videos recently because I like to mix things up. Then we do about two to three minutes of sitting in the cold plunge, usually doing a relaxing form of breath work, like box breathing or an inhale with long exhales and that's it.

Ben Greenfield [00:28:58]: I mean that's our protocol and it works fantastically. And occasionally about a couple of times a month, we will do a longer, more holotropic ash breath work session where we're going like 60 to 75 minutes in the sauna, sweating our eyeballs out, getting huge dumps of DMT, just kind of exhausting ourselves with breath work. And usually after that, we'll go spend a little bit longer time in the cold. Like we'll go jump in the river for ten minutes. But again, that's because we're just so hot and tired afterward. So that's what our practice looks like right now.

Maximilian Freiler [00:29:32]: Yeah, I think there are a lot of similarities because this brings in these variabilities, changing things up, mixing things up, doing research. And I think this helps just to prolong any kind of practice because usually for the people, it's much easier to continue with the cold praxis, but the breath work, to keep the breath work alive, it's much more difficult because it touches the sensitivity so how we feel ourselves. And I think if we go to more, it will be difficult to sustain a level that attracts us, that motivates us. But if we develop as well our sensitivity with these practices, it becomes more alive and then we need fewer breaths for, you know, for more DMT maybe, you know. And so this is, this is really, I think this is the key to understanding this principle, the way how you practice.

Ben Greenfield [00:30:24]: Yeah. Despite the physical benefits of heat and cold and breath work, not much that we've talked about is going to build significant amounts of muscular fitness. Is there an exercise component to the Wim Hof Method? And the reason that I ask is that I have had some people, and I've even tried this myself, do things like on the exhale drop and do 20 push-ups, you know, so doing rounds of Wim Hof, but doing, for example, push-ups or some form of an exercise in between each round. Do you guys ever do something like that?

Michael Nuss [00:30:57]: Yeah, I mean these are games you can play. And in the beginning, Wim Hof also included more physical exercises. But now he broke it down to make it as simple as possible. And so the basic practice is the breathwork, the mindset, and the cold exposure. But what I observe in many people who do this for a longer time, is you also start exploring other things, physical exercises, as we spoke about the sauna later, maybe we touch on the apnea, other forms of hormetic stressors in which we can learn about ourselves, about our nervous system and stress the body in healthy ways.

Ben Greenfield [00:31:38]: Okay, got it. Yeah. And I think, by the way, I should note real quick, that there's a great book on Russian breathing or a form of Russian breathing called Systema Breathing. My sons and I are doing soviet kettlebell training right now. I've been through the Russian Kettlebell certification and the strong first kettlebell certification, and breathing is a huge component of that. A lot of focus is on controlled breaths, belly breathing, diaphragmatic breathing, etcetera. And that's why, for me, at least in an ideal workout program, I'm doing cold heat breath work and some form of kettlebell training that incorporates a lot of these Russian Systema Breathing protocols. So I think if you're doing Wim Hof, you can still incorporate other styles of breath work into your exercise program outside of Wim Hof.

Michael Nuss [00:32:28]: Yes, I totally agree.

Maximilian Freiler [00:32:29]: It's like it's just the beginning. It's just good to have something, something graspable, something that we can, where we can feel immediately the changes, and from there on, we can also dive deeper into these things. But nowadays, it's like sometimes people are just very, very far away from these practices. And I feel like the Wim Hof Method is through their simplicity and through this direct change that we can experience. It's just so good to get started with. It's so simple and so effective. This is really what I think how it stands out.

Ben Greenfield [00:33:02]: Yeah. What are some mistakes? But besides what we've already stated, getting into water, cold water, while you're still breathless or dizzy, which I think is something people misunderstand. Some people even do Wim Hof breath work in the water. Highly recommend against that. But besides that as being one mistake, what are some other mistakes that people make when doing or thinking they're doing Wim Hof breath work well in the.

Michael Nuss [00:33:27]: Breath work itself, I think the biggest mistake is to be superficial with the practice and focus on the outside. So to focus too much on the protocol instead of feeling yourself, just performing it without feeling it. And I think this is like a dead end, because these people, often they're looking then for a strong sensation, which you get in the beginning, but after a while, this will decrease a little bit. And I think then it's more important to feel the body and relax the body and have a deeper body awareness, and then feel also into the more subtle sensations within the body. So I think using force and being distracted while doing the breath work is the most common mistake.

Ben Greenfield [00:34:21]: Interesting. What about the pace of breathing? Meaning when I first started doing Wim Hof, I would go, and now it's much different. It's a long inhale, letting go in, letting go, and I feel much better. Way less stress, way better nervous system regulation, a way better breath hold during the exhale. But I don't know about you guys, is that a common mistake, that thinking that Wim Hof is just all hyperventilation? Yes.

Maximilian Freiler [00:34:51]: And I think it's like always when we start, I mean, anyone who has learned something in the depth, you will see, when you usually start with something, you do it slow, because when you do it slow, you feel more and you can observe better what's going on. So I think it helps to do it, to do it slow, and also to do it, for example, through the nose in the beginning, because when you breathe through the nose, you automatically access more the diaphragm muscle, which is the main muscle for the inhale, and the exhalation. So breathing through the nose and doing it slowly, I think facilitates conditions where we learn proper breathing, more sensitivity, and more understanding of how it impacts our inner state. And I think the more we understand this, the more we will be also just flexible with how we do it and what we need at a certain moment.

Ben Greenfield [00:35:44]: The Daily Mail recently published an article that I alluded to earlier. The title of the article was The Truth About Cold Water Theory. And the subtitle was, Experts reveal exposure risks panic, weak limbs, and even cardiac arrest – as ‘Iceman' Wim Hof's ice bath and breathing methods are linked to a string of deaths. Now, what do you guys respond with when you hear objections like that?

Michael Nuss [00:36:15]: First of all, it's correct that ice water is dangerous, but it's not correct that this is linked to the removal method in the way they describe it, because it's important to understand that ice bathing and winter swimming are two different things. So, just to understand what happens if you practice the Wim Hof Method, if you go to a fundamental workshop, there are several steps you go through. First, you sign a health waiver where you check, for example, for high blood pressure or preconditions with the heart. The second thing is the instructor will explain to you the safety protocols before you go in the water. For example, all the instructors will explain not to do the Wim Hof breath work in the water. The third thing is, if you do a workshop with a certified instructor, you will go in a very safe circumstance where you can always stand, and it's not deep the water, so you're not swimming around outside, you keep the head out of the water, and you breathe very controlled and very slow. And if we look now at this article, what they claim here, or, like, what they are talking about, is, first, the death of this girl, Madeleine. She was 17 years old.

Michael Nuss [00:37:36]: And yes, nobody knows what happened to her. And it's a tragic death, of course. But, yeah, there was also this lawsuit against Wimov, and four days ago, the court made a judgment about it. And the summary was that the lawsuit has no merit. So, yeah, the second thing is, what they point out is this 39-year-old woman. And, yeah, she was not doing a removal workshop. She was going to another company. I don't know what they did exactly, but in the article, it said, first and foremost, there was no waiver.

Michael Nuss [00:38:14]: They went in the water, and then the instructor sprinkled her head with cold water. And if we look at the causes that happen when people die in the cold water, there's a great, great article from Mike Tipton, who is also mentioned in this article, but I think they didn't read it, to be honest. But what he explains is that most people who die in the cold water, fall in the cold water, and then they have the cold shock reflex. So they breathe in fast. And if you are in water where there's waves, they breathe in the water. And this causes the drowning. This is the most common cause. People die in the cold water.

Michael Nuss [00:39:00]: There's also another option. How you can die is a cardiac arrest. And this can happen if the whole body is under the water. And the cold shock reflex happens if the cold water hits the torso at the same time. If you put the head under the water, it will trigger this parasympathetic nervous system. This is confusing because both the sympathetic and the parasympathetic are activated at the same time. And this can lead to heart dis-rhythm. The heart gets out of the rhythm.

Michael Nuss [00:39:35]: And yes, to die from that, you still need a precondition with a heart. This is the only reason, then you can die in this. But if you have a precondition with a heart, you can also die in the heat or doing a strong exercise. But just to make it clear, in the vom Hof workshop, you will not just go under the water with your head. We stay outside of the water with the head. And also the other things that are mentioned in this article, like the weak limbs that are, they are a problem if you swim around outside. Of course, hypothermia is a real dangerous hypothermia. Mike Tipton states like, it kicks in the earliest after 30 minutes in the ice water.

Michael Nuss [00:40:17]: And in the Wim Hof workshop, you stay in for two minutes. Yes. There's only one thing that the article mentions that's true. That can happen also in a Wim Hof workshop one out of 10,000 people. They can have memory loss, but it's, yes, always short-term. So they always come back after a maximum of 24 hours.

Ben Greenfield [00:40:43]: Yeah. Well, thank you for those clarifications. I think that whether it's a free diving triathlon or cold water swimming any form of cryotherapy or even breath work, that you should make sure that you're healthy enough to do so. I think everyone should be getting a regular lipid panel. I think they should be looking at something like a plaque score for the heart. I think they should be paying attention to heart rate variability. I think that you should know whether or not you have heart rate arrhythmias, such as getting an EKG. You should be managing stress, getting adequate minerals and hydrating properly, using magnesium, and taking care of cardiovascular function.

Ben Greenfield [00:41:27]: Because I know that deaths were a problem with open-water swimming back when I used to do triathlon. And, yeah, you put a stressed out, dehydrated, mineral-depleted CEO who just came out of a 70-hour work week on the beach at 06:00 a.m. and you started triathlon with a thousand people kicking around you, screaming and shouting and air horns. Inevitably someone's heart is not going to be able to handle that. And it's sad and it's tragic when it happens. But a big part of it is you do need to be careful, especially depending on your heart health, piling stress on top of stress on top of stress. So I do think you want to be wise about these things, but I agree with you that that article is describing what happens when you do things wrong. Basically.

Ben Greenfield [00:42:19]: I think that's the best way to sum it up. When you're doing it in the water for long periods of time, getting excessively cold and breaking a lot of the rules, many of which we already discussed.

Maximilian Freiler [00:42:29]: Yeah, and none of that what they described happened ever in a Wim Hof workshop. It was completely other circumstances. And I think just taking these things out of the circumstances and not describing the real situation, it's just a real distortion of the picture. And I think, yeah, it's sad because I think it's such a powerful tool and we should encourage the people to do it safely, in a correct way. Also, even they mention a protocol in this article. And in this protocol, they say that you should put the time around ten minutes in the ice cold water. So it's very, very distorted article.

Michael Nuss [00:43:05]: But there was something cool in the article. I saw they put in a picture, a sexy picture of you in the ice bed. I think it was the best thing about the article.

Ben Greenfield [00:43:13]: I know, I saw it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was great. I won't live that one down. And yet, there are multiple research studies. You can find these easily on PubMed, showing a link between breath work, apnea training, CO2 tolerance, nitric oxide production, and improved cardiovascular function, as well as a link between cold therapy and better vascular function, better blood sugar management, better blood pressure management, better management of blood flow issues such as Raynaud's Phenomenon, better stress tolerance. Overall, if done right, I think that breath work and smart use of cold, and I would say the same thing for heat, are good, not bad for cardiovascular function.

Maximilian Freiler [00:43:59]: And I think it's, even with water, if you drink too much water, you can also die. So everything has its risks as well. This is part of the life.

Ben Greenfield [00:44:10]: Yeah. I was going through the schedule for the retreat. I know we're going to be doing cold therapy, and breath work. Of course, we have some hiking. We have fantastic luxury meals. There's a sweat lodge ceremony. I'd love to hear a little bit more about that. But then you also mentioned apnea training.

Ben Greenfield [00:44:24]: What is apnea training, and how is that different than Wim Hof breath work?

Michael Nuss [00:44:28]: First, it's important to understand that it's something completely different. And that works also differently in the body. The effects that it has on the body and how we approach, for example, the breath hold. In Wim Hof's breathing, we do a lot of inhalation and exhalation. And so we breathe out a lot of CO2. And like this, it's very easy to hold your breath for a long time in a safe setting inside, not in the water. Right. At this moment, the oxygen levels can drop to pretty low levels, which triggers a healthy stress response.

Michael Nuss [00:45:03]: So the body improves the energy production, the mitochondria, and the red blood cell count. In the apnea, we do something completely different. We don't do deep inhalation and exhalation. We slow down the breathing. We want to be as calm as possible and hold our breath, and then the CO2 will rise up, which causes very strong discomfort inside. And in the apnea, you try to stay with this and learn to relax, even though the CO2 is rising. And to be honest, I learned from Max about this. I attended a retreat where we did all kinds of exercises.

Michael Nuss [00:45:44]: It was not a Vermont retreat, but, yes, we do this kind of work where we played also, for example, in a dark lake where you play a game with a friend, you hold a stone. You have to stay on the bottom until your friend comes, taps you, and takes the stone. And then you can go up and take a breath while your friend is underwater. Then you go down again. And in this kind of circumstance, you learn so much about yourself because the CO2, like, creates a lot of fear inside of her sell. But you also don't want to let your body down.

Ben Greenfield [00:46:17]: Just real quick, I'm sure everybody who just heard you talk about safety in this article, I've now just heard you say, dark, cold lake, holding a rock underneath the water until a partner comes and taps you. Isn't that dangerous?

Michael Nuss [00:46:34]: Well, first and foremost are under the water roughly one and a half meters. So you can just stand up in any given moment.

Ben Greenfield [00:46:44]: Got it.

Michael Nuss [00:46:45]: It's just creating a scenario that causes you stress, but you're actually safe, you know?

Ben Greenfield [00:46:53]: Okay, got it.

Michael Nuss [00:46:54]: And of course, I want to stress again, this is not a Wim Hof Method retreat. This is something else. But I want to mention it because, you know, in the Wim Hof Method, you face the cold, and you learn to deal with it in a calm way. This is another scenario, another stressor with the CO2, where you also learn to deal with the stress. So it's a different thing, but the underlying principle are also, like, bigger than that. And the same is true for the heat, which is also not a part of the Wim Hof Method. But we also use this tool.

Ben Greenfield [00:47:22]: Yeah, it's an emerging field in health and biohacking, the idea of CO2 tolerance. There are now carbon dioxide delivery suits. I've worn them. They look like a giant blueberry, but it's literally pumping CO2 in through a pump in through the suit, where it's absorbed transdermally to generate CO2 tolerance or overload the body with more carbon dioxide than what normally experience. Some people are now using a device called a Carbogen to breed CO2, and I've even seen James Nestor, the author of the book Breathe, write about the CO2 tolerance effect. Dr. Joe Mercola has also written about this quite a bit. And there is a benefit to building up tolerance to CO2, particularly when it comes to stress resilience. The interesting thing is Wim Hof Method is blowing off CO2, depleting CO2, which is the body's signal.

Ben Greenfield [00:48:14]: It's a gaseous signal to cause you to engage in the breathing reflex. So when you breathe off CO2, you can hold your breath longer. And the opposite is true with these apnea tables, you're retaining CO2. It's actually harder to hold your breath for a long period of time. But there are side benefits to increasing the levels of CO2 in your body. So you're kind of hitting it from both angles from a physiology breath component when you're doing both apnea training and Wim Hof training, because you're training yourself to tolerate both low levels of CO2 and high levels of CO2.

Michael Nuss [00:48:48]: Right, exactly.

Maximilian Freiler [00:48:50]: And also your O2 capacity. And that the body learns also to deal with low oxygen levels. In the Wim Hof Method and the apnea training, the body learns how to deal with high CO2 levels in the body. So it's tackling both sides of the spectrum.

Michael Nuss [00:49:07]: Yeah, I just want to mention it one more time to make it very clear. Sorry, just for the safety. It's very important to understand that it's never the idea to do hyperventilation and then dive under the water as long as you can. Like, this is not the idea to combine these things.

Maximilian Freiler [00:49:23]: Yes.

Ben Greenfield [00:49:25]: Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, and for me personally, I'll just come around and say, you know, I go and do Laird Hamilton's underwater dumbbell pool training in Malibu and I've done rock training in the ocean. Literally carrying a rock 15ft at the bottom of the ocean. I've done. I've gone as low as 80ft free diving. Like, I don't mind some of the badass stuff that flirts with danger, but yet at the same time, it's something like this retreat. We're not going to put you in situations like that, but I don't necessarily frown at, like, Wim Hof's underwater ice swimming record. I just don't want to encourage people to do something like that unless they're ready and they understand the risks.

Ben Greenfield [00:50:03]: So back to the retreat. What about the Sweat Lodge?

Maximilian Freiler [00:50:06]: Yeah, actually, like, just last week I came back from the. From the Sundance. So every year I do the Native American Sundance. It's a very beautiful, deep ritual where you fast for four days. Like, you don't drink water for four days and you don't eat for four days. And every day in the morning and in the evening, you do a Sweat Lodge and you dance in the sun during the day. So this is where I really learned the Sweat Lodge technology. It looks so ancient, and it looks not like a technology, but it's really a technology for our consciousness and for connection.

Maximilian Freiler [00:50:44]: And this is also something that we both explore, like these ancient traditions, these ancient rituals, and we do it in a. Yes, in a very respectful way, really learning from the people that are doing it, from the real natives. And because this is. Yeah, there is a long tradition of passing on this knowledge, and we also integrate this into the retreats because it's so beautiful, the effects on the people, to not only shed a light on different stressors from different perspectives but really also to connect with nature, to connect also with the things that we cannot describe the life, the mystery, like this spiritual realm. Because in my mind, it's so important to also touch on this layer for really tapping into your own essence of life, to really find the trust. And I think you cannot go around this layer. And this is also what we bring into. I think the sweat lodge is always after the people come out of the sweat lodge, they feel like newborns and they feel something they haven't felt before, like a deep connection with nature and not, the separation is gone.

Maximilian Freiler [00:51:52]: The separation of, oh, I'm a human being and everything else, or nature is not part of me. You feel like, oh, I am nature. There is no separation.

Ben Greenfield [00:52:00]: Yeah, you feel amazing afterward. I've led or not led. I've attended some father-son wilderness retreats at Twin Eagles Wilderness School, where my sons attend in the summers. And there's always a sweat lodge component, and it's always transformative. It's stressful. I mean, you're in there in the heat, and you have the drums going and, you know, and it's a little claustrophobic and dark, but when you finish, you feel as though you've climbed a mountain. The sweat lodge we'll be doing at the retreat, is it a really big one? Like, will we have a lot of people in there?

Maximilian Freiler [00:52:32]: Yes, we will be. It's a big sweat lodge and it's also part of it. Like, also, like in Sundance, we are in the sweat lodge with 60 people. It's not going to be that tight, but it's going to be tied up. But of course, also in a very safe way. There are clear instructions on how you get out, and of course, it's how to check in all the time with the people. And you can kind of guide it very well with the water that you're pouring over. It's not like in the sauna, that this crazy heat is all the time there.

Maximilian Freiler [00:53:00]: You can much better regulate it. And, yes, also to have a really clear structure, how to get in, how to get out, how to act inside of it, and so on. But, yeah, it's gonna be tight. Yeah.

Ben Greenfield [00:53:12]: Okay. Got it. Give me the overview of what this retreat is gonna involve. So somebody's listening right now. They're like, that'd be kind of fun to go to Germany right before Christmas, you know, December. You can clarify on the day. It's about the 11th through the 15th ish in Germany. But walk me through what people can expect if they were to come over there and meet me and my sons in Germany to do this Wim Hof retreat.

Michael Nuss [00:53:37]: Well, first and foremost, it's in a beautiful place close to Munich, so you can fly into Munich. It's very easily accessible. But then we go south of Munich into the Bavarian Alps in a natural area where you cannot drive with the car, you need special permission. And then we have the retreat center. And this is also where I live in this area. And it's surrounded by mountains with really the most beautiful mountain rivers. And, yeah, you're surrounded by nature. And, of course, we will explain also what is happening physiologically.

Michael Nuss [00:54:10]: We're also very curious to listen to your talk and to go more into the perspective of the biohacking, also of all of this. And then we will also do a lot of practical experience with breath work. Wim Hof style, classical breath work. We will also explore longer breathwork sessions. What you mentioned before, we will go into the cold in different scenarios. We will do ice bathing, gradually build up to it, but also go, for example, without a t-shirt for a longer time outside. We will do sweat lodges. And a big component of the whole thing will also be the music because the music is also very powerful to bring us together.

Michael Nuss [00:54:55]: And, yes, I mean, we want to bring together people who are interested in exploring themselves but also are willing to share vulnerable what's going on inside of themselves. Strong people, but also real people, and bring them together and just create a force field so we can really deeply, deeply look inside.

Ben Greenfield [00:55:17]: I have a few questions. Do we need to bring our own snacks and energy bars and food and stuff, or are you guys doing cooking and food prep for us?

Michael Nuss [00:55:25]: So the cooking is done by the retreat center, and they do an amazing job. Yeah, it was very, very, very healthy. And, yeah, people are also always very happy with the food.

Ben Greenfield [00:55:36]: Okay, that's awesome, because we're fruity. How about when you show up, do you need to have a lot of breath work under your belt, or is there a certain program you need to follow leading up to the retreat? Or could you theoretically show up having never done an ice bath or breathwork?

Maximilian Freiler [00:55:53]: Yes, it's no problem if you have not so much experience with it. We will also send out a couple of weeks before the retreat, some protocols to follow just to get used to it, to feel safer. And then you can also make more of the time and go deeper into it as well. This usually helps. The same with the cold. So we are gradually exposing ourselves, and then when we are there, we can do the real work. That is usually very difficult to do alone.

Michael Nuss [00:56:20]: So.

Maximilian Freiler [00:56:21]: Yeah, and very often.

Michael Nuss [00:56:25]: It's even better.

Maximilian Freiler [00:56:26]: If you don't have so much knowledge before, because then you just go in with a beginner's mindset. You're very open, and you receive. This sometimes can help.

Ben Greenfield [00:56:36]: You know, you have to fix all. You have to fix all the mistakes you've been making. How about age limit?

Michael Nuss [00:56:42]: Well, there's no real age limit as long as you are healthy. So we had people up to the seventies, but you have to check in advance, of course. For example, some parameters that we will send out in advance.

Ben Greenfield [00:56:53]: How about. How young can you be?

Michael Nuss [00:56:55]: Yeah, 16 is a good age to start.

Ben Greenfield [00:56:56]: Okay. All right. Got it. Yeah. Cause my sons. Yeah, they'll be 16. They're 16-year-old twins, so they'll be there along with me. And how many people can we get into this retreat, in total?

Michael Nuss [00:57:06]: If you fill it up completely, it's going to be like 30 spots in the place.

Ben Greenfield [00:57:10]: Perfect. Well, so, first of all, if you're listening and you want to do this, go to BenGreenfieldlife.com/wimhof. I should ask you guys, this is important, of course, people, what's about the pricing people can expect for this thing?

Michael Nuss [00:57:22]: So the price is €2500 for the retreat, and the lodging is an additional fee. And it depends on what kind of room you choose. And you can see it all on the page that you were just mentioning.

Ben Greenfield [00:57:37]: Okay, if I wanted, like, let's say somebody's listening in and they wanted the nicest of the nicest rooms, how much would that be approximately, you think?

Michael Nuss [00:57:46]: It's roughly €500, for the night. It's the house itself. You also have to understand, that it's not a hotel, it's a community. And they live there, and they do this really from the heart. And they are also part of my family. I work a lot with them. And we are embedded there in the local community also.

Michael Nuss [00:58:06]: So it's very, very beautiful. It's a retreat center with a gigantic seminar space. And they really do this from the art, but it's not a hotel. It's much more. There's much more family.

Ben Greenfield [00:58:17]: All right. I actually love that approach. So if somebody was going to do this, which day would they arrive in Munich?

Michael Nuss [00:58:22]: So you can arrive in Munich on the 11th of December. And this will be enough time because the retreat starts at 06:00 in the evening.

Ben Greenfield [00:58:33]: Okay, perfect. And then which day does it end?

Michael Nuss [00:58:36]: It ends on the Sunday the 15th.

Ben Greenfield [00:58:39]: So let's say someone did have to fly out of Munich if they left that Sunday night. Does the retreat end in the morning or in the evening?

Michael Nuss [00:58:48]: It ends after lunch. And so you can easily go then in the evening from the Munich airport.

Ben Greenfield [00:58:55]: Okay. Or you could like, would there be an option if someone isn't flying out until Monday, for them to find a place to stay on the night of the 15th?

Michael Nuss [00:59:02]: Yeah, that would be no problem.

Ben Greenfield [00:59:04]: Okay. Wow, I'm so excited, you guys. My sons and I have been talking about this a ton.

Michael Nuss [00:59:09]: Yeah, it's also a beautiful area. Many people who come to our retreats also air the week before or afterwards to go skiing, explore the area, there's a lot of hikes you can do. And yeah, it's just amazing.

Ben Greenfield [00:59:20]: Awesome, awesome. Well, first of all, if you go to BenGreenfieldlife.com/wimhof that's where you can get the details on the retreat. If you just want the show notes for this podcast and to dig into my original show with Wim, and learn more about some of the other stuff we talked about, go to BenGreenfieldlife.com/wimhofpodcast so your two URLs are BenGreenfieldlife.com/wimhof W I M H O F or BenGreenfieldlife.com/wimhofpodcast. Max and Michael, anything else you guys wanna share while I have you on?

Maximilian Freiler [00:59:52]: Oh, it's just such a pleasure. You know, like five years ago I was listening a lot to your podcast and it's also beautiful to be here now and to talk to you. So I feel very blessed in this moment.

Ben Greenfield [01:00:07]: Awesome, awesome. Well, I'm honored to have you on. I'm so excited about this retreat. And again, go to BenGreenfieldlife.com/wimhof if you want to get in. And until next time, I'm Ben Greenfield with Michael Nuss and Maximilian Freiler. From the Wim Hof Method signing out from BenGreenfieldlife.com have an incredible week.

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