Ben Greenfield [00:00:00]: Ben Greenfield. And on this episode of the Boundless Life podcast.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:00:03]: I've been on quite a journey in the last seven months, and it's been probably one of the most difficult, painful, challenging situations of my life.

Ben Greenfield [00:00:15]: Wow. Is this a below the knee amputation?

Dr. John Lieurance [00:00:20]: Yes.

Ben Greenfield [00:00:21]: Okay. Wow.

Ben Greenfield [00:00:23]: How are you dealing with that mentally? I mean, it's gotta be. I can't imagine. I mean, it has to be an odd experience to have that part of your body gone.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:00:35]: Yeah, it's. It's very, very trippy. There's. There's a part of me in my heart that feels like this is my path, that this is. This was meant to be, and it's for a purpose.

Ben Greenfield [00:00:47]: Welcome to the Boundless Life with me, your host, Ben Greenfield. I'm a personal trainer, exercise physiologist, and nutritionist. And I'm passionate about helping you discover unparalleled levels of health, fitness, longevity, and be on.

Ben Greenfield [00:01:09]: All right, I got a 4-peat guest on the show, at least. John. I. I think we're roughly saying it's four times. It sounds about right. Yeah.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:01:17]: Yeah. Well, yeah, that's about right. Yeah. Well, you. If you count how many times you've, like, referenced stuff, that might be like a 100.

Ben Greenfield [00:01:30]: You get a lot of shout outs, bro. You do, because you do a lot of crazy stuff. For those of you who are not familiar with my guest, his name is John Lieurance. John's an author, he's a physician, he's a lecturer. I call him Blue Man. As a matter of fact, the show notes for today's show, where you can go and listen to all our other episodes, are at BenGreenfieldLife.com/Blue man, because amongst many other things, he's kind of one of the experts out there on Methylene Blue, even as a whole book called Methylene Blue Silver Bullet. He's also the guy to introduce me to, for better or worse, because I still get some crap about this.

Ben Greenfield [00:02:12]: The. The high, high dose melatonin sledgehammer that I use typically via suppository when I'm out traveling. And John is just up to a ton. He's got this massive. How many thousand square foot is your big biohacking facility down there in Sarasota, John?

Dr. John Lieurance [00:02:31]: We're about 20,000.

Ben Greenfield [00:02:33]: Yeah. 20,000 square feet of just all the craziest toys and IVs and biohacks you've ever seen. Well worth a little visit to the Disneyland of health down there. So, John, it's been a long time coming to have you on, and I know you've had a very interesting past few months that we will get into in terms of you nearly losing a body part. And we're going to talk about that. But before we do, I just want to jump right into this Methylene Blue thing because there was a big article that came out. It was on a website I follow called Green Med Info called the Blue Brain Effect. I'll link to in the show notes. But the image in the video is like a brain dyed blue.

Ben Greenfield [00:03:26]: And the article goes into how Methylene Blue is like staining tissues, causing issues. I sent it over to you, I wanted to get your take on it, but can you walk through? I realize this question might rabbit hole a little bit what that article was saying about Methylene Blue in terms of its effects on the brain.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:03:47]: Yeah, I can't count how many people sent that and there's been a few other people that have either done videos or articles that are against Methylene Blue. And you know, each time I, I review these, these, these items, I just can't find anything that really is concrete proof. You know, it's, it's almost like people are trying to get clicks, you know, by being against something that's really popular. I've just seen an absolute explosion. And you and I, you and I got into Methylene Blue. Like, I mean, what's troubled in 2021 or something. I was first introduced to it, I want to say like 15 years ago and you know, found it to be one of one incredibly powerful tool in the arsenal as a naturopath and chiropractic neurologist, you know, treating a lot of brain conditions and also in the biohacking community. It's one of the, one of the things that, you know, you can almost guarantee that you give somebody and they're going to come back and say, hey, I really felt better, I felt stronger, felt like I had more endurance, I had a, an improved mood.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:04:55]: And when you look at the research with Methylene Blue, it's just incredible. I mean everything from neural protection to it's got antimicrobial effects. It enhances the mitochondria in a way that no other molecule has been shown where it's like all four of the complexes within the mitochondria are increased on an average about 30%. So it's been referenced as the magic bullet as a substance that has these far reaching benefits to the body, yet leaves the body unharmed. But so they show this picture, they did an autopsy with some individuals that had IV Methylene Blue, high doses of Methylene Blue and the brain was blue. And they also had some pictures of some hearts. And they're referencing this as if this is equals toxicity. They also talk about the synthetic origin of Methylene Blue, which we should get into just a little bit.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:05:51]: But what you know, and these people that are writing it, they're great individuals. I mean, they put out some great content with regards to natural health.

Ben Greenfield [00:06:02]: The guy's name that runs the website's Sayer Ji. Right?

Dr. John Lieurance [00:06:05]: Yeah, yeah. We have a lot of friends in common and I know the guy's really involved in politics and I really have a deep respect, but there's some really complex chemistry involved with Methylene Blue and it's very, very difficult unless you really put your time into it. And the thing that you really have to appreciate with Methylene Blue is that it actually is an oxidant. It's an oxidant. And it goes between being an oxidant and an antioxidant, where it goes between Methylene Blue and something called LeucoMethylene Blue.

Ben Greenfield [00:06:40]: And just to clarify, super quick to make sure we get terminology right for people listening in, when you say it can act as an oxidant and an antioxidant, this means that within something like the mitochondria, it can both donate electrons in terms of its reducing or its antioxidant capacity. And it can accept electrons.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:07:01]: Exactly, yeah. Which is really incredible. It's like a pitcher and a catcher with this thiazine ring and this amine group. They just bounce the electrons back and forth. But not only that, Methylene Blue is a brilliantly blue salt and it reflects blue and it absorbs red. So we can utilize that with photon therapy. You know, anywhere from laser therapy to like all the red light therapy people are doing, you can actually get an increased benefit by. It kind of acts like a sponge to suck these photons into the mitochondria, which is where they do your the most good.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:07:38]: But kind of back to this, this idea of, of this, you know, blue brain. Right? So like, yes, your brain, you want that you want brain has a lot of mitochondria. Methylene Blue, for whatever reason God made it, where it just has this affinity for the mitochondria. So the mitochondria sucked them in like suck it in like a sponge. But eventually your body's either going to metabolize it or the almost all of it is going to eventually get converted into LeucoMethylene Blue. And actually the LeucoMethylene Blue is quite a quite. It's a lot of the benefit is actually from that LeucoMethylene Blue. And you can actually utilize.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:08:17]: There's. There's studies that are done just primarily on the reduced form of. Of Methylene Blue. You can. If you take Methylene Blue in water and you add vitamin C to that water, you'll actually see the water turn clear. It's pretty cool.

Ben Greenfield [00:08:33]: Yeah, it is interesting. I actually know some manufacturers that make Methylene Blue. And it's got about a one to one ratio of vitamin C to Methylene Blue, and it's not as blue and it doesn't turn your mouth as dark. I'm surprised more companies don't use that as a trick because that keeps a lot of people from using methylene because they don't like the extreme dyeing of the mouth.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:08:55]: Yeah.

Ben Greenfield [00:08:56]: Why not just add vitamin C to all Methylene Blue?

Dr. John Lieurance [00:08:58]: Well, that's, you know, so with Mitozen and the Lumetol Blue, one of the reasons that we. We add vitamin C to it, but we also add a number of polyphenols that help to kind of support that bio. You know, absorbing those photons in that biomodulation. So the other thing that is really cool is we make it into like a little bar so that you throw it in the back of your throat, you know, and you cut it to the dosage that you want, you throw it in the back of your throat and you drink. And so you have a really good absorption of Methylene Blue orally. And primarily, you really want the stomach acid working on it. You don't really want it getting down into your intestines because it can be slightly irritating. You don't want your mouth turning blue.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:09:46]: And so these bars are really popular because people like to take it without turning their mouth blue.

Ben Greenfield [00:09:54]: Okay, so back to this article. Let's take things one by one here. First of all, it cites the synthetic origins of Methylene Blue, meaning it was first synthesized back in the 1800s. I think it was a coal tar derivative. And they refer to it as something called a xenobiotic, saying that by it being a xenobiotic, it's foreign to life processes. And then it eventually became adopted for medical use, I think for malaria in the early 1900s. And since that time, it's been used for a lot of things. You know, a urinary tract antiseptic, a surgical dye.

Ben Greenfield [00:10:40]: Nowadays, as you and I have talked about a lot, you know, a nootropic for brain enhancement. But why is it that there would be concern over its synthetic origins? And are you concerned about something like that?

Dr. John Lieurance [00:10:55]: Well, I mean, you know, I've dedicated my life and my career to natural approaches to health and well being, you know, being a naturopath and a chiropractor. And so, you know, this idea that it's a synthetic compound, at first blush, you know, I had a problem with it, you know, and I started to really look into the research and realize that just about all pharmaceutical medicines have an origin with petroleum. Right. And so petroleum has, is actually petroleum is natural and it's got an abundant amount of hydrocarbons. And these hydrocarbons and different organic compounds are used as building blocks to build more complex molecules. So it's, and it's also the stability of the molecules developed through this are very stable. And you want that for something, for a good shelf life. But to put it in the same say, okay, since it's synthetic and since it's derived from petroleum, which is a lot of medicines people are using these days that are, does that equal toxicity? Does that mean that this is a negative for that molecule? And I would offer that it's not.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:12:10]: And this is not true for everything. But you know, at some point we have to, we have to really look at the research and see how safe. You know, it's over a hundred years that this has been around. And the safety record using Methylene Blue, especially under 2 milligrams per kilogram of body weight. And really most people can go up to four, but there can be a slight.

Ben Greenfield [00:12:35]: Under 2mg per kg just to contextualize that real quick. Yeah, I weigh about 80kg. So you're saying for a guy like me, I could use like 160 mg of Methylene Blue.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:12:52]: Extremely safely without having to really worry about any side effects at all. Unless you have G6PD, which is a gene pathway. But actually one thing that is really interesting is an individual that has, that is not completely out of the, you know, they could still enjoy some of the benefits of Methylene Blue by taking it in its reduced form form, which is LeucoMethylene. But there's actually been some research showing that those individuals tolerate that really well.

Ben Greenfield [00:13:21]: Okay, so the, the, the idea here with the actual synthetic nature of it, you described it as something coming out of the petroleum industry. I don't think a lot of people are familiar with this idea. What does that mean that a lot of medications come out of the petroleum, petroleum industry. Like, like how's that actually work?

Dr. John Lieurance [00:13:43]: Well, it was the, the roots are with Dale Carnegie and Rockefeller. Right. And so Rockefeller was a big oil man and they discovered that they could build a lot of chemistry with these building blocks. And so obviously Rockefeller was pretty excited about that. And, and because of that he went and funded this huge shift that happened in our, in our medical, primarily in, in the, in schools. There was 155 schools. And what happened they called the Flexner Report, right. They hired this guy, Abraham Flexner, who was against natural medicine to begin with.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:14:25]: Right. And he wrote this report that they took to Congress that basically was promoting science and science based medicine, things that had studies, right. And so all of these were basically pharmaceutical and that if schools were teaching things like chiropractic and herbology and homeopathy, then they wouldn't get the funding. And so our, the medical schools literally went from 155 all the way down to like 30 schools. And this is why to this day there's this bias against diet and exercise. I mean medical doctors hardly take, I mean like even just like a couple hours of diet and exercise because it's just a complete myopic interest in promoting the pharmaceutical industry. And they've done really well financially that way. So that's kind of where the roots are.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:15:18]: But that's, you know, when you look at all of the like 150,000 compounds that have been discovered, you know, since they've been building these, you know, different molecules, they've never found anything that does what Methylene Blue does. The fact that it goes and it works on all four complexes, it improves photobiomodulation, it's antibacterial, antiviral, it can be beneficial against Lyme disease, it has this neuroprotective effect. The other thing that's really cool, a lot of research is looking at Methylene Blue for degenerative neurologic disease such that it helps to clear tau protein right through autophagy. This is a big deal. Like with, with Alzheimer's, there's a buildup of these proteins in the brain and they've actually shown that Methylene Blue helps the body clear these protein tangles out of the brain.

Ben Greenfield [00:16:17]: So there's, there's other concerns that they raise in this article, like serotonin syndrome, and I've heard that before, that you're not supposed to take Methylene Blue if you're using, I believe, an SSRI because you could get some kind of potentially life threatening condition caused by excessive serotonin activity in the nervous system. Is there anything to that claim?

Dr. John Lieurance [00:16:40]: Yeah, well, it's a great question because it's one of the most commonly talked about contraindication, and it's rooted in surgery where they were doing a thymectomy. So these individuals were having thymus glands removed surgically, and they would do very high doses very quickly of Methylene Blue IV. And I mean, we're talking like 500 plus milligrams within like an hour IV with these people. And because Methylene Blue has an affinity to the mitochondria, that thymus gland would get really, really blue. So they went in for the surgery, they could see it very clearly to make sure that they got rid of all of that cancer, cancerous gland. And they found that the patients that were on SSRIs developed serotonin syndrome. And so after that happened, they made this global warning against SSRIs and Methylene Blue. But then afterwards, they started to really look at the data, and the Mayo Clinic retracted the warning and said, it's just when you get this thymectomy that you need to be careful.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:17:48]: And the, you know, like, Canada took that warning, but our FDA maintains that warning. But really, I think what we really want to look at is all of the negative things that I've seen in all the research all involve high doses of Methylene Blue. Done IV. Right. So if you're going to stay within, like the two, and, you know, if you're taking SSRIs, I would definitely be below 2 milligrams per kilogram and may and even talk to your health care provider. Right. I mean, this is just from the research. It looks to me like most health care providers, you know, by, if they do their homework on this, would agree, you know, that there seems to be a very strong safety track record with Methylene Blue.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:18:32]: And individuals that might be concerned with the serotonin syndrome would definitely want to stay under that two milligrams per kilogram, maybe even a half a milligram per kilogram. But the bummer is that the people that are depressed could really use Methylene Blue. And it's a much better alternative for improving mood than SSRIs because it works on nitric oxide. And it's the negative nitric oxide, which is the inducible form of nitric oxide, that you don't want a lot of that because it's very corrosive to your nervous system, to your cardiovascular system. And. And that is one of the reasons besides the ssri. But it's not just serotonin that it improves. It's all neurotransmitters, dopamine and norepinephrine as well.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:19:20]: So people generally feel really good. And when you improve your neurotransmitters and you feel good, this is when people make better decisions, right? They're going to get out of bed and they're going to go work out, you know, they're going to go and get, cook that healthier meal. And this is my experience, is that when people's neurotransmitters are more balanced, they just tend to be healthier in other ways.

Ben Greenfield [00:19:42]: Yeah, I was just, I was just in Florida actually. Down in your neck of the woods, speaking on a yacht. It was with this private group that hired me to come, you know, do health seminars and stuff like that. On a yacht. I was handing out Methylene Blue like candy because we were all spending time in the sunlight. You talked about the interaction of photons of light, particular red light spectrum, with amping up Methylene Blue's ability to be able to help produce more ATP. And people felt great. I mean, they, they love the idea that you could get kind of like a cup of coffee free burst of feel good energy.

Ben Greenfield [00:20:17]: I think Methylene Blue and sunlight or Methylene Blue and red light is kind of like, you know, the turkey and cranberry of the energy kingdom and the feel good kingdom. And I'm a huge fan. It does kind of lead me to another question though. John and I was asked this when I was on that, on that cruise. People were like, can I use this every day? Can I use it multiple times per day? Can I take it in the morning and go out in the sun, then take in the evening, hit the red light sauna? Like, what's the actual protocol as far as safe and effective use of it?

Dr. John Lieurance [00:20:49]: Yeah, I think it's a good idea. There is some thoughts that it could build up in the mitochondria and then clog the system. Because when you, it is, when you get into those higher dosages of Methylene Blue, it can start to have an opposite effect where it slows the mitochondria down a bit because it's too much oxidation and not enough conversion into that LeucoMethylene Blue, which happens through our antioxidant capacities. So I would offer that it might be like every 10 days, you might take a couple of days off. But it's different for everybody. Some people, they take it for a couple of days and they feel better if they take a day or two off, even after just a couple of days. So I would suggest people experiment with how their body utilizes and metabolizes it. But definitely consider at the minimum every couple of weeks, taking a few days off.

Ben Greenfield [00:21:46]: Okay. So similar to ozone, it has a little bit of an antibacterial effect. And people say the same thing about ozone. Do you want to be careful with, not to use too scientific of a term here, nuking your microbiome by using it excessively? I mean, could you get too clean? Could you turn yourself into kind of like an internal bubble boy who's got a weak immune system? Because you've destroyed a lot of the good and the bad bacteria in your gut with something like Methylene Blue?

Dr. John Lieurance [00:22:17]: Yeah, great question. So one. One thing that's really interesting is that the way that Methylene Blue is an antimicrobial is that when it gets into these different microbes, it actually release. It turns into and releases ozone and hydrogen peroxide. And this is the way our body naturally kills these microbes. And Methylene Blue has a way of getting in and doing that. There's a study that they were having rodents drink nothing but water with Methylene Blue. So the way that they supplied the Methylene Blue is that all of their available drinking water was Methylene Blue.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:22:53]: And I can imagine that some of that would get into the lower part of the intestine. Now, keep in mind, you can't really look at rodent studies and just assume that it's going to be the same thing with humans. But I do think that, you know, there is some interesting thoughts that you really don't want methyl Methylene Blue chronically in your large intestine. And this is where most of your populations of your good. Your microbiome, your good bacteria are. So that's why I don't think capsules are the best way to go, because a lot of times those capsules don't dissolve. And then when we first launched Methylene Blue, we actually launched it in a suppository. You remember that?

Ben Greenfield [00:23:35]: I know. I was just thinking about that. I'm like, what about your suppositories?

Dr. John Lieurance [00:23:39]: Well, we still have it, and there's still an application for it. Usually physicians use it to ramp up Methylene Blue in the blood and then do light therapies and so forth. So there's different protocols, but it's not something that I would recommend for the average person to do at home.

Ben Greenfield [00:23:57]: Okay. Got this other article we were talking about on Green Med Info. They say it can cause severe hypertension when given in high doses like this intravenous bolus. You know, the SSRI issue you mentioned, also triggered by something like an intravenous bolus. How much do you get from a Methylene Blue IV? Because I know you will do this sometimes at your clinic. I think I had one done at your clinic versus oral dosage. Like, how much are you mainlining into the system with an IV?

Dr. John Lieurance [00:24:27]: Well, we'll do anywhere from 150, sometimes even up towards 300 milligrams intravenously over an hour or hour and a half. And it does have a very high absorption orally. And so one might pause and step back and say, well, why are you using it intravenously if it has a great absorption? And the reason is because you're getting that high level in the blood over that short period of time. And then we take this fiber optic and put it actually into the vessel. We did this with you, I, I'm sure a few times. And we irradiate the blood with a red light that's at 660nm, which is the exact wavelength that Methylene Blue works. Photo. It's a, it's called photodynamic activity.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:25:18]: And, and so this is primarily something that we really want to target when we're wanting to really ramp up mitochondria effect in the blood. Like say if we're doing a stem cell infusion with a patient, or if we're looking for an antimicrobial effect, like somebody has really high Epstein Barr or Lyme disease or Candida or something like that, it can be really effective.

Ben Greenfield [00:25:41]: Have you ever had people have these adverse effects that this article's talking about, like hypertension or anything else related to the IV versus the oral?

Dr. John Lieurance [00:25:50]: We monitor that pretty closely and we haven't seen that actually. You know, the Methylene Blue tends to relax blood vessels because it has an effect on nitric oxide. And, and so if anything, it, in the dosage that we typically use it, it's going to actually lower blood pressure a little bit.

Ben Greenfield [00:26:11]: How does that work to, to use light in the IV? Like, is it a needle that goes into your. I know you did it on me, but I don't remember. Does your vasculature this light via a needle or something like that?

Dr. John Lieurance [00:26:24]: Yeah, it's a German technology and it's actually like a plastic catheter. And a lot of doctors use catheters for IVs. And then there's a tiny filament that's fed through that catheter. And that catheter just sits right inside of the blood vessel. And the blood traveling past that light just gets irradiated. So it's like a photon bath for the blood and then the blood is getting saturated with the Methylene Blue. And so you're having a very strong effect in the bloodstream with this kind of Methylene Blue with, with photobiomodulation.

Ben Greenfield [00:27:01]: I actually read a book, it was a Russian translation because the English was a little bit difficult. The book was called Human Photosynthesis and it went into the idea that photons of light when they interact with melanin or pigmented compounds in the bloodstream can cause a splitting of a water molecule. So you get like 2H2O, I think, split into what would it be? Four hydrogens and oxygen. And that mechanism then frees up electrons to be able to drive through the electron transport chain and produce more ATP, causing us to, as the name of the book implies, photosynthesize, kind of like a plant. The dark blacks of the plant kingdom were cited, something like shilajit. Methylene blue would be another example. But then you also hear about these so called phycocyanins that you would find things like spirulina or cyanobacteria, algae. And that article that we're talking about, it actually proposed that something like a blue pigment protein you'd find in something like spirulina is safer and arguably more effective than Methylene Blue as far as something you could consume and then pair with photobiomodulation laser, red light, sunlight, et cetera, to get the effects that a lot of people look for from Methylene Blue.

Ben Greenfield [00:28:31]: What do you think about the comparison between something like a phycocyanin and Methylene Blue?

Dr. John Lieurance [00:28:37]: Well, I love phycocyanin. In fact, that's in our Lumetol Blue. So we add that in with our Methylene Blue products along with riboflavin and green tea extract and lutein and quercetin to kind of have that full spectrum. But you know, the, the reality is I, I have searched high and low with psycho phycocyanin and I've not seen anything with regards to anything that we're, we discussed with Methylene Blue. Like I said, they, they've never really found anything like Methylene Blue. And you know, there' that I'd want to, I'd want to make is that we live in a world where there is a lot of man made stuff, right that we have to like adapt to. I mean think about like Lyme disease, you know, and like how that was developed in Lyme, Connecticut and Plum island, right? It's a man made bacteria, spirochete. And then, and then we have Covid you know, they, they, they, they've shown that that was made in a lab in Wuhan, right? So, and then there's all these man made chemicals, right, that are getting into our body and hormone disruptors and it's just like this, this long list of like EMF, you know, there's light exposure in our circadian rhythm.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:29:52]: We just haven't been able to adapt. So the fact that Methylene Blue is, is man made, you know, it's like to me, I'm thinking man made pro, man made problem. Well, we need a man made solution, right? So I, I think that in a perfect world, if we were living out, you know, in the jungle or, or in the forest and we're eating healthy foods and we're living off the land, you know, Methylene Blue probably wouldn't be something that you would need. But in today's world, I, I think that it's a really valuable tool and to just throw it out, you know, as, as, you know, I've heard once one person say that, you know, if you don't have a mitochondrial problem, then you don't want to take Methylene Blue. But I would offer probably 90 plus percent of all individuals. I mean we, the United States is like most people have a chronic disease, right? Most people have toxicity. You know, I'd say 90 plus percentage of people have some sort of deficiency within their mitochondria. And this is one of the reasons that when most people take it, they'll feel better.

Ben Greenfield [00:30:58]: When you were just giving that description, you said Lyme is man made. I don't think I've heard that before. Can you clarify what you mean by that?

Dr. John Lieurance [00:31:07]: Oh, yeah, yeah. So when, after, after World War II, we hired all of the Nazis that were doing biological warfare, they were studying this.

Ben Greenfield [00:31:20]: Who's we? Like the US Government?

Dr. John Lieurance [00:31:22]: United States. Yeah, that was one of the things that we really went in and scooped up as many scientists as we possibly could that were Nazis. And that's one of the reasons I think that we've advanced so far. But one of the stations that they set up was in Plum island in Connecticut. And they've, they've really already, you know, they've proven that, that these, these were biological weapons that were developed on Plum island. So that, you know, they looked at like spirochetes and Lyme disease have been around a long, long time. I was watching this show where it was like one of the most ancient human beings they found frozen in the Arctic, right. And they went in and they tested, they could actually test the blood and they found this guy had Lyme disease, like, way back then. Right.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:32:13]: But the Lyme that. That spirochete had a very, very tiny little DNA snippet where the DNA of Lyme today was, like, enormous compared to what it was back then. So it's not the same. It's. It's actually changed quite a bit. And this is most likely from what they did, these Nazis did at Plum Island.

Ben Greenfield [00:32:37]: So you're saying, like, they isolated an original natural form of Lyme and then somehow concentrate it or made it more virulent?

Dr. John Lieurance [00:32:45]: Yeah, yeah. So the idea was to implant. This is what Hitler had given, as

Dr. John Lieurance [00:32:53]: A directive to these scientists, was to place some sort of a bacteria into a bug and then drop these bugs behind enemy lines such that the enemy would lose the will to fight. And this is well documented.

Ben Greenfield [00:33:11]: Where'd you learn about this? Is there a book about this or something?

Dr. John Lieurance [00:33:14]: There is, and I wish I could tell you which one it was. I think there's probably more than one book.

Ben Greenfield [00:33:20]: All right, I gotta dig into this because obviously, Lyme is an issue that a lot of people deal with. And what you're saying is, I mean, let's say I'm hunting and I get bit by a tick, and I get Lyme. You're saying that the Lyme that I get is something that that tick could have potentially gotten from Plum island, and that it's way different than the type of Lyme my ancient ancestors might have been exposed to?

Dr. John Lieurance [00:33:45]: That's right, yeah.

Ben Greenfield [00:33:47]: Are you saying, like, ticks could technically be almost like a biological weapon?

Dr. John Lieurance [00:33:53]: Yeah, yeah. That's what. That's what the original design was. But they. But they got loose that. Like, when you read this book, they talk about how they, you know, they. They had all these systems in place if, like, something happened and somehow one of the animals got loose, or I forget the actual story, but they tried to shut it down and they tried to eradicate it, and. And it was too late.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:34:18]: Yeah, it's a whole story. It's really interesting. I wish I could bring more color to it.

Ben Greenfield [00:34:26]: If you had Lyme, you use Methylene Blue.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:34:28]: Oh, yeah, yeah. There's some nice research on Methylene Blue for Lyme and Bartonella. Actually, you know, the third edition to Magic Bullet is coming out, like, probably this week. It'll be on Amazon, and we get into all kinds of really great rabbit holes with Methylene Blue. One of the additions that I wanted to add into the book was on this Prosta-Blue Zone injection, because we're using that.

Ben Greenfield [00:34:57]: Give me details. Because I had this done. I can't say it was the most pleasant thing I've done. And it was weird to be, pardon the expression, farting ozone out my dick after I had my prostate injected with Methylene Blue and ozone. We briefly touched on it, I think, the last time that we did a podcast. But tell me, tell me what you're about to say.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:35:19]: Oh, well, we have been very, very busy with testing people's semen. Right. And so the testing these days is so advanced, they call it next generation sequencing, where it actually tests up to 60,000 microbes. And this is why we're picking up on this idea that it's not, in most men, it's not benign prosthetic hypertrophy, which we're all expected for our prostate to grow at a certain rate as we get older, like it's normal. Right. And that it's based on testosterone and this conversion to dht, and that it's an androgenic effect from the cells in the prostate. But I actually found some research that. But they were going in and they're saying when they really evaluated at a cellular level, there's some inflammatory change happening within the prostate that seemed to be changing the androgenic receptors on.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:36:26]: And they felt that it had to be some sort of an infection that they just weren't able to test for, which we can now. And so most of the men that we've tested have shown some level of infections. And so these reports come back, and the reports show not only which microbes are infecting the prostate gland, but also what antibiotics work against it. So what we do is we take one, two, or even three antibiotics, and we also put Methylene Blue, and under ultrasound, we inject the prostate. We do a series of three of these injections. I think we did one with you, and you got great results from the. From what I remember, you were waking up occasionally to urinate.

Ben Greenfield [00:37:14]: Yeah, yeah. It brought my nighttime urination from two to three times per night down to one.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:37:20]: Okay, that's excellent. Right. And because you were here, we were doing an event. We never did the pre test, but it sounds to me like we must have eradicated some, you know, some infections that were in there. And then when you say infections, you're.

Ben Greenfield [00:37:35]: Talking about like fungus or mold or what exactly is in a man's prostate.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:37:40]: You can see some fungus. Yeah, we've seen patients that have. Have had fungus. You know, I mean, there, there really could be anything. The, the challenge that we have as men is that the prostate is like an encapsulated gland. And so we don't have really great circulation in there. So once we get an infection, it can just sit in there and hide from our immune system. And so we can also infect our loved ones.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:38:08]: And oftentimes. And I think this was something that happened with you, is that that infection, when we ejaculate, can actually get into the woman as well, and that could be cross contaminated there.

Ben Greenfield [00:38:20]: Yeah. It's really weird because my wife used to get a UTIs and yeast infections and she quit getting them after I did that procedure. I think I told you this on our last podcast.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:38:29]: Yeah.

Ben Greenfield [00:38:29]: So it's possible I had some type of contamination or. Or fungal infection or mold or yeast or something in my prostate gland, and I was passing that along with my partner during sex.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:38:41]: Yep. Yep. Well, we. We actually. It's interesting. We did a pre and post with Luke Storey. I think after, maybe about the same time, I think he was here that weekend. And so we actually had the data with him and he had a huge list of microbes.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:38:58]: And I mean, it literally went down to virtually nothing. It's a high bacterial load to like hardly any at all. And his symptoms reflected, you know, a similar benefit that you had. So we had a case. Listen to this. We had a case that we did an MRI, pre and post MRI, and the pre MRI was suggesting that they had cancer. And it was like, I think about three months later, the. That lesion was completely gone.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:39:25]: It was pretty wild. We've had a case that couldn't ejaculate. And then after we did the procedure, the patient started to ejaculate. So I think it's a real big unmet need. It's the second leading cause of cancer in men over the age of 40. And that's one of the reasons I just got so interested in this. And we're going to start doing some research through my nonprofit. And we want to really gift this protocol to the world.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:39:52]: So eventually we're going to be teaching this to other doctors, but it works really well. So we. We kind of started talking about the protocol, but there's like a. There's a few things. So we inject it with a couple antibiotics to match based what we got on the test. Then. Then we. We.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:40:10]: We put Methylene Blue in there and a little bit of a numbing agent, and then we inject ozone. Okay. And then after that we use this probe that then irradiates. And so we're using the Methylene Blue with light. Right. And that's basically a protocol we call Prosta-Blue Zone. And we can put a link where I have a more detailed article about the protocol in the show notes.

Ben Greenfield [00:40:36]: Now, if I wasn't sure that I needed to do this, is this test that you do for contamination of the prostate gland something someone could order to their house and do to see if they might need a protocol like this? Because, you know, there's companies like, you know, Vibrant Wellness, for example, does some mycotoxin and mold panels. You know, there's other urinary tests. Is there a test someone could do at home to see if they have these issues in their prostate gland before they decide to, you know, whatever, buy a plane ticket to Sarasota?

Dr. John Lieurance [00:41:09]: Yeah, well, that's kind of how we operate. So most of the patients that we treat do travel in. And so before we have them come, we recommend that they do in the privacy of their own home, collect the, the, the, the, the semen sample, and then we consult.

Ben Greenfield [00:41:28]: It's a semen, not a urine test.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:41:31]: Both semen and urine, actually, both of those are kind of important to look at side by side.

Ben Greenfield [00:41:37]: Okay, but is this a test someone can buy themselves and do, or you send it to them?

Dr. John Lieurance [00:41:42]: It's, it's usually ordered through a doctor's office. So it's, we can put a link in the show notes for anybody that wants to order this test.

Ben Greenfield [00:41:55]: Okay, yeah, send it to me, email it to me afterwards, and I'll make sure it gets in the show notes because I think that'd be interesting for a lot of people to look into, a lot of men to look into. I want to shift focus here for the last part of our podcast, John, because you have had a very interesting past few months. I don't know if a lot of this is public knowledge at all. You had a pretty significant injury. You were near the brink of death, I believe, at multiple points over the past several months. And you also were able to use your knowledge of some of these more fringe biohacking or alternative medical protocols to manage what was going on? Yeah, so, so, so tell folks what was up.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:42:44]: Yeah, I had a pretty significant injury where I, I fell and I hit my head. I got a concussion and I, it was just the perfect fall and where I injured the nerves. So I wound up going to the hospital and having a surgery called compartment syndrome. Right. So I, I, I, the, it's when, it's when the, the pressure, you have an injury to your leg, basically, and they, they make, make incisions to release that pressure and after they did it, you know, I. I asked them, you know, can I get in a hyperbaric chamber? And. And they're like, no, there's no proof. And it was right around where the hurricanes were, so everybody was a little bit kind of, you know, chaotic.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:43:30]: But I. I mean, I had Jason Sonners call that the doctor that was working with me. I had.

Ben Greenfield [00:43:36]: And then Jason is the guy that runs the hyperbaric company. They make the soft shell hyperbaric. I use. I believe you use as well, that Jason.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:43:44]: Yeah. I mean, he's basically like a PhD in hyperbaric oxygen. And so they're like. It's not indicated, but compartment syndrome is actually one of the indications. So this was at Sarasota Memorial Hospital. And after being released from that hospital, I was dealing with this compartment syndrome. But what they did is they put something called a wound vac over these incisions. Do you know what a wound vac is? You heard of that before?

Ben Greenfield [00:44:13]: No.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:44:14]: So it's like this. The plastic is wrapped and kind of glued around your skin. And then they stuff sponges into these lesions, these wounds. And then there's a machine that's just constantly sucking. So it's like pulling blood and nutrients from in your body out. And so it's kind of creating that flow. And what it does, it starts to create some granular tissue is what. And they were.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:44:42]: They were just trying to get it to heal. Right. And I mean, I had this wound vac on for, boy, you know, nearly three months, Ben. But, you know, I couldn't feel my foot. I couldn't move my foot. And so after about six months, I had to have, like, a really serious talk with. With the surgeon. I got lucky, though.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:45:05]: After I left the one hospital I went, I was referred to this doctor in Bradenton at Blake Hospital. His name is Dr. Van Vliet. He's a plastic surgeon. And I literally had 15 surgeries. This guy had to go in, remove all this necrotic tissue.

Ben Greenfield [00:45:22]: I mean, you sent me pictures, dude, your leg looked like an alien. I mean, it was just like. It looked like beef jerky. Yeah, it was just strings of muscle hanging off of bone and flesh. Was that from an infection?

Dr. John Lieurance [00:45:33]: Yeah, I think partly the muscle just got necrotic, so it just started to die because it just didn't have the blood or nerve supply to it. You know, I. Maybe, maybe not. I don't know. It feels to me like my case was mismanaged. I mean, what a wake up call being in the hospital and with someone like me. That understands health and wellness and can ask all the right questions. You know, I just, just like, I just really feel empathetic to people that don't.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:46:04]: But it was very frustrating because in the hospital everything's so segregated, right? I mean, it's all siloed. The gastroenterologist, the infectious disease doctor, the internist. Right. You have the neurologist, like. And they all come at different times. And you know, that's the problem, I think in allopathic medicine is there's no cohesiveness. Right. And when I would bring up things that I knew were great solutions, you know, they didn't, they either didn't know about it or their hands were tied because they could only use pharmaceuticals routes, which again, that all goes back to that Flexner report.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:46:44]: You know, if that never happened, you know, back in 1908, I think we would have a whole different type of hospital than we do now. But I asked, you know, I asked the surgeon if, if I could get light therapy, laser or whatnot. And the guy said, I've never heard of it. Literally this is a surgeon, it says, I've never heard of light or laser therapy. And if I, if it was something that was any of any benefit, I would have heard about it.

Ben Greenfield [00:47:10]: Well, that's not surprising. I mean, I think a lot of doctors in a traditional medical education are taught about things like photobiomodulation. They either find it out for themselves or just don't know.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:47:21]: Well, there's a huge body of research on the use of laser and light for healing tissues and so forth. But needless to say, it was very frustrating to just be laying there in the hospital and not have not be able to execute a lot of the tools that I knew that would really help me.

Ben Greenfield [00:47:41]: How close did you get to anything like amputation or life threatening sepsis or anything like that? Because I mean, from the photos I saw, it was, it was a significant injury.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:47:51]: Well, I had, I had kidney, kidney failure. So that I went on dialysis and they were telling me that I would probably be on dialysis for the rest of my life. They also were telling me I'd need to have my leg amputated at the hip, hip, because I had a lot of damage and what's called rhabdomyelysis, which is death of muscle throughout my whole hip and leg.

Ben Greenfield [00:48:13]: That would have directly caused the stress in the kidneys. Right, because you have these muscle protein having to wind up in the kidneys for filtration.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:48:21]: Exactly, yeah. So one of the things that really helped me was. I did a. An infusion with the stem cells, the X cells that I think we used with you, and they literally snuck these into the hospital. I wasn't sure I was going to share this on the show or not, but.

Ben Greenfield [00:48:40]: You snuck stem cells into the hospital?

Dr. John Lieurance [00:48:44]: Yeah, I had someone sneak stem cells. I had someone sneak peptides into the hospital. I had someone sneak melatonin and Methylene Blue. You know, I was starting to pee blue in the. You know, in the, in the, in the catheter. And the lady was like, oh, what's that? I told her, well, I was drinking beet juice. I said, it's just beet juice.

Ben Greenfield [00:49:09]: Hey, so the stem cells, when you sneak those in, I mean, what. What were you doing, just injecting them?

Dr. John Lieurance [00:49:13]: Yeah, well, yeah, I already had an IV in, and, you know, I. One, maybe two weeks later, they came back and did kidney testing. They're like, you don't need dialysis anymore. So I'm pretty sure that the. The stem cells pretty much cleared.

Ben Greenfield [00:49:28]: Oh, did you put them in the IV bag, the stem cells?

Dr. John Lieurance [00:49:31]: Actually, it was a push. So it was in a large syringe, and it was just slowly pushed into the blood vessel.

Ben Greenfield [00:49:38]: Wow. Okay, so, so you're sneaking all these different modalities into the hospital, and the only question you got was about the blue pee?

Dr. John Lieurance [00:49:48]: No, I got into a little bit of trouble with the peptides, you know, because the peptides were like syringes. Right. And, yeah, one of. One of the. The friends that brought the peptides dropped a needle on the ground, and the nurse picked it up, and then they. And reported it, and they're like, well, this isn't like one of our needles. And so they immediately thought I was. I was administering, like, drugs.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:50:13]: You know, they were. They were concerned about whether it was hair.

Ben Greenfield [00:50:16]: You mean, like, like recreational drugs?

Dr. John Lieurance [00:50:19]: Yeah, because they see it a lot. You know, they see it in the. In the hospital. So I had to, you know, have a nice talk with them, and I told them what. What. What was really going on. And they. They told me that it's.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:50:32]: It's strictly forbidden. And so we, you know, we. We had to be more careful. I'm not going to say I stopped it, but I was definitely a lot more careful.

Ben Greenfield [00:50:41]: Yeah. And what. What peptides were you using?

Dr. John Lieurance [00:50:45]: BCP and thymosin beta.

Ben Greenfield [00:50:50]: BCP? You mean BPC.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:50:51]: BPC, Sorry. And I forget which combination for growth hormone. It was the growth hormone releasing peptide. I think 3 and 6 or 2 and 4.

Ben Greenfield [00:51:02]: Yeah, usually it's like a Tesamorelin, Ipamorelin, CJC combo.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:51:07]: Yeah, yeah. I was working with Matt Cook after I got out of the hospital and Matt had designed some peptide protocols for me and he was sending them out. He also had me on the SS31. And that's like a mitochondrial peptide?

Ben Greenfield [00:51:23]: Yeah, yeah, that one's great. Were you using these new. I haven't done a podcast about them yet, but they're like these pre loaded peptide pens made by Vesalius where they just arrive and you turn the dial and inject rather than having to draw them up into an insulin syringe.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:51:37]: Yeah, that'd be really convenient. I'm not familiar.

Ben Greenfield [00:51:40]: Okay.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:51:41]: Yeah. I'm really grateful for Matt Cook for supporting me. He literally even didn't even charge me. He just, just was like, brother, you know, he just wanted to see me get better.

Ben Greenfield [00:51:51]: Yeah. Matt's got one of the biggest hearts in medicine. He's, he's, he's saved my ass quite a few times. You know, I'm on the, on the brink of illness and he'll ship me up something like Thymus and Alpha 1, and the next day I wake up just feeling fine. Yeah, yeah, he's a good guy. Okay, so you, you went through all of this and then what happened as far as the leg, as far as the, you know, getting discharged? Like, where are you at now?

Dr. John Lieurance [00:52:17]: Well, I had, I had the leg amputated and I mean, this is a big reveal, Ben. I've been very secretive on my social media, so anybody that knows me or has been following me, like, I've been on quite a journey in the last seven months and it's been probably one of the most difficult, painful, challenging situations in my life. And I had to make a big, big decision about whether I'm going to keep my leg or. You know, they have such great prosthetics these days. Right. And I'm a very active individual. I really wanted to get back to surfing and hiking and the idea of continuing to try and, you know, like a foot that you can't feel or move, they're saying, oh, we can fuse the foot. But you know, I, I, you know, there was one time where I stepped on something and my foot was bleeding and I took my sock off and I, it was like my, my, like two of my toenails were practically ripped off.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:53:16]: So the idea of not feeling your, just how much damage you can create without knowing it. So, so yeah, I went, I, I think I made, I know I made the right decision. Right. So I had my, my leg amputated five weeks ago. Tomorrow I actually go and get fit for my prosthetic for the first time. And I'd like to shout out Proteor, which is a company that makes prosthetics, they're actually sponsoring me. And my. My goal is, because last year I went to Nazare, which is the largest surfable wave on the planet, in Portugal, and I got towed in by Garrett McNamara.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:53:53]: And so my goal is, next year I want to go to Nazare and with a prosthetic leg, get towed into a 40 foot wave like I did last year.

Ben Greenfield [00:54:03]: Wow. Is this a. This below the knee amputation?

Dr. John Lieurance [00:54:07]: Yes.

Ben Greenfield [00:54:08]: Okay.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:54:09]: Wow.

Ben Greenfield [00:54:10]: How. How are you dealing with that mentally? I mean, it's got to be. I. I can't imagine. I mean, it has to be an odd experience to have that part of your body gone.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:54:22]: Yeah, it's. It's very, very trippy. You know, like, even, like just getting up from laying down, you normally have that leverage of the weight of the foot when you're sleeping. It's like, you know, my leg moves around so easily and quickly. It's like, because you don't have the weight, it's really hard to get used to. But I would say, Ben, there's a part of me in my heart that feels like this is my path, that this was meant to be, and it's for a purpose. And that purpose is to inspire people and to inspire people that things can happen that might, in one person's perspective, be terrible, but, you know, making, you know, lemonade out of lemons, so to speak. I found that I've had such an outpouring from all of my friends and people like you.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:55:17]: I mean, you were messaging me regularly and just giving, you know, praying for me and realizing, like, how much amazing friends I have and. And the connections that I've had. Like, Laird Hamilton is someone that I wound up connecting with after I got injured. And, I mean, he's like, facetiming me every morning or shout out to Laird Hamilton, you're an amazing human being. So the. The challenge has made such a impact where people become empathetic, their heart opens, and then it provides an opportunity for this really deep connection that I don't think I would have otherwise.

Ben Greenfield [00:55:53]: And are you actually back in practice now, like, at your clinic?

Dr. John Lieurance [00:55:58]: I've actually been living here. I moved in to the clinic right after the hospital. We.

Ben Greenfield [00:56:04]: I guess that's convenient to live in your 20,000 square foot biohacking facility when you're healing up. Something like that.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:56:09]: Well, you know, we built out those apartments. I can't remember whether you stayed here or not.

Ben Greenfield [00:56:13]: I think, yeah, they were almost done when I was down there visiting you last time.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:56:16]: Yeah. But it's, it's really a nice setup. And we have two apartments, so I'm in one of them and it's been nice because I can kind of bop back and forth and yeah, I've been working. We. Anybody that calls the office, they'll say that, you know, I'm not, I'm not available. And we have a waiting list. I think the waiting list is several months now. But I do intend on, once I get the prosthetic leg, starting to open up some, some limited hours to, to see patients myself.

Ben Greenfield [00:56:44]: Yes. You still have your staff there working as well, right?

Dr. John Lieurance [00:56:46]: I got a great staff. Dr. Amanda McDonald's a DO. Dr. Alex Smithers is an MD and an acupuncturist. And they're just, I mean, just superstars. Dr. Alex has been with me for 15 years and Dr.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:57:00]: Amanda for a few years, but they're really, really doing a great job.

Ben Greenfield [00:57:04]: Yeah. And like I mentioned, that's like the Disneyland of biohacking down there. I know we don't have tons of time left, but are there any very cool new tools that you found and added to the lineup?

Dr. John Lieurance [00:57:16]: Oh, man, I'm glad you asked that. I've been really into hypoxia and CO2 late. And there's a carbon dioxide inhaler that I've been really enjoying.

Ben Greenfield [00:57:29]: And by the way, I have one. I inhale 7% carbon dioxide for about five to seven minutes a day while I'm working at my desk.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:57:36]: Oh, yeah, Yeah. I just did it earlier today. But like, I mean, you know, you're. What percentage are you breathing? Do you have?

Ben Greenfield [00:57:45]: 7%?

Dr. John Lieurance [00:57:46]: 7?

Ben Greenfield [00:57:47]: Yeah.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:57:47]: Yeah. So you're really out of breath.

Ben Greenfield [00:57:50]: Yeah, yeah. You get a little hypoxic, but then long term effects isn't anxiolytic.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:57:56]: Yes.

Ben Greenfield [00:57:57]: You feel this calming release of stress when you finish. Kind of like you feel after a workout like a release of stress and then you get a huge pump, this big release of nitric oxide.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:58:06]: Yeah, yeah. It's amazing. We, I, I recommend people do between 3 and 5%. Seven percent's like a nice heroic amount.

Ben Greenfield [00:58:15]: It's a little extreme, but I use Anders Olson's device. I'll link to in the show notes. I think it's called the Carbohaler or something like that.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:58:22]: Yeah, yeah. So we, we, we actually have rebranded that, that same inhaler. With mito Mitozen. I think I call it the Mito Carbonator or something like that. But yeah, I'm really big in promoting it. We've actually been able to attach that machine to our intermittent hypoxic device, the Hype, we call it HypoxiZen, which is this. This is the other thing I'm really into is this Russian technology where it's. It's a device that moves between low and high oxygen.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:58:51]: It's called intermittent hypoxic therapy. And the research on this out of Russia is unbelievable. And the idea is that kind of the same thing with carbon dioxide, is this a stressor? And that stressor enrolls these adaptive responses in the body that ultimately allow the body to have better oxygen absorption and utilization. And what I found was you can piggyback it onto different things. Like with the, with the carbon dioxide, there's. There's like a port. And so while you're going through this, it's. It's using different gases.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:59:26]: Right. So not only are you doing the high and the low oxygen, but you're increasing the CO2. And I believe that that's an even. And then we're going to play around with even adding hydrogen gas as well.

Ben Greenfield [00:59:37]: Yeah, so you're inducing a respiratory state of either hypoxia and elevated carbon dioxide or hyperoxia and elevated carbon dioxide.

Dr. John Lieurance [00:59:46]: Right. Which would happen naturally if someone's doing extreme sports. Anyway, so you're just mimicking this natural response. And, you know, I'm sorry, the vasodilation, I believe, and the benefits is more with CO2 versus nitric oxide, whereas I think the CO2 is activating nitric oxide. But CO2 in and of itself is vasodilates and relaxes the smooth muscles of the blood. So I think that we're starting to understand that science a little bit better. And the idea of using carbon dioxide is becoming more and more. I'm hearing more and more people talk about it.

Dr. John Lieurance [01:00:21]: We did it rectally a couple years ago here in Sarasota.

Ben Greenfield [01:00:25]: Yeah, you did do rectal CO2 on me. I can't get away from your clinic without some crazy tube going up, some little used orifice, at least when it comes to tubes and gases and blues and ozones and things like that. So, John, we're running up short on time here, but I know you have the update to Methylene Blue. You got your clinic Advanced Rejuvenation in Florida, the update to the Methylene Blue book. I mean, I'm going to link to all that in the show [email protected]/ Blueman if you're listening in, John's a good follow. He's an inspirational follow, obviously with what he's gone through. So I highly recommend that you not only check him out, but check out the other podcasts we've done because, I mean, we take a deep dive into all sorts of crazy modalities. So.

Ben Greenfield [01:01:16]: BenGreenfieldLife.com/ Blue man are the show notes. And John, once again, this has been fascinating.

Dr. John Lieurance [01:01:26]: Yeah, thanks for having me on your show again, Ben. It's always a pleasure. And I, I am going to start sharing my journey a little bit more on my Instagram, which is Dr. John Lieurance @Dr. John Lieurance. And I'll be probably showing some images and, and talking a lot about the different modalities that I use to kind of heal myself. And like I said, I'm going to get fit for this new prosthetic tomorrow and I'm videotaping it all along, so I've got the whole story documented.

Ben Greenfield [01:01:56]: Cool. All right, so Dr. John Lieurance, good luck spelling that, but I'll link to in the show notes and yeah, check him out. Follow his journey. John, I'm proud of you. I'm inspired by you and I really appreciate you coming on again.

Dr. John Lieurance [01:02:09]: All right, me too. Thanks, Ben.

Ben Greenfield [01:02:11]: All right, folks, I'm Ben Greenfield along with Dr. John Lieurance, signing out from BenGreenfieldLife.com/ Blueman check out the latest edition of his new book on Methylene Blue, Magic Bullet, and his other works you can find on Amazon and on his website. And until next time, have an incredible week.

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