November 3, 2022
[00:00:49] Podcast Sponsors
[00:07:23] Podcast and Guest Intro
[00:15:05] Why Wild Health went into pro sports and their Genetic Optimization Athletic Program
[00:18:50] What does the Athletic Program do to the average athlete? What are they getting out of it and what are you seeing in terms of results?
[00:24:05] Could the data collected be fed into the artificial intelligence algorithm?
[00:28:36] Is this a website that people can log into? Is it an app? What is the actual delivery mechanism?
[00:30:05] Then what does the practitioner do? Does this put the practitioner out of a job?
[00:33:54] What do you need in order to have access to the program?
[00:38:05] Podcast Sponsors
[00:41:59] cont. What do you need in order to have access to the program?
[00:43:31] What about Wild Health's Executive Program?
[00:46:32] What kind of stuff do you find out from a full-body MRI?
[00:47:50] Do you have a specific wearable that you assign to everybody?
[00:48:44] Are you doing anything for mental optimization?
[00:51:44] What have you been doing to help sick people, and what have you seen in terms of chronic disease?
[00:54:48] What is it that you're doing or prescribing or recommending that you think is different?
[00:56:05] Any concerns about the algorithm?
[01:01:34] What is the Awake and Aware series?
[01:07:04] Future with Wild Health
[01:10:50] Closing the Podcast
[01:12:35] Hiring at Ben Greenfield Life
[01:14:08] End of Podcast
Ben: My name is Ben Greenfield. And, on this episode of the Ben Greenfield Life podcast.
Matt: It's a great quote that “Anytime you try to isolate anything and try to pull on one string, you find it connected to everything else.” So, a lot of times one of the mistakes we make in medicine is, okay, we're going to get someone's A1C down, improve their metabolic health. So, we switch them to ketogenic diet without any really data. And, that probably will work, but then we may see their LDLP or some of these things skyrocket. So, we've improved one thing and we've hurt another thing.
Ben: Faith, family, fitness, health, performance, nutrition, longevity, ancestral living, biohacking and a whole lot more. Welcome to the show.
Alright, this is cool, but you want to pay attention because it's coming up right around the corner on Friday, December 2nd. You're going to get a chance to join me and some really powerful healing physicians down in Sarasota, Florida. This is a live event. It goes from 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. I'll be there, my friend, and a brilliant former podcast guest, The Doctor Strange of Medicine, Dr. John Lieurance is going to be there, HBOT USA, Dr. Jason and Melissa Sonners are going to be there with their Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy, Brian Richards of SaunaSpace, Harry Paul, one of John's friends who I recently met who's also an amazing healer for an event that's super unique. It's all based around the elements: earth, fire, air, and water, with a ton of treatments and technologies and modalities, and very unique biohacks that you're going to get exposed to during the entire event.
Basically, what I mean by that is when it comes to air, you're going to learn about hyperbaric oxygen, and ozone, and air filtration, everything you need to know to upgrade your air. When it comes to earth, pulsed electromagnetic field therapy, earthing, grounding, a host of other ways that you can use the power of the planet to enhance your health, your sleep, your recovery, your muscle gain, your fat loss, a lot more water. You'll learn about proper water filtration, how to upgrade your water, hydrogenated water, structured water, basically soup to nuts, everything you need to know about water and how to apply it in your home and your office and your life. And then, finally fire, is a fun one. Lots of cryotherapy, a little bit of ice too, breathwork, inner fire practices, a ton of stuff when it comes to introducing the element of fire into your life.
So, this event is super unique. John and I have been working on it behind the scenes and it has come together amazingly. There's even a VIP experience. If you sign up for the VIP experience, you could come two days early or stay a few days after the event, and basically, you will get all the medical protocols customized by Dr. John and his staff if you claim one of those 10 VIP spots. That'll include IV methylene blue, laser treatments, John's really unique bliss release, which is basically an endonasal adjustment, which is essentially a chiropractic adjustment through your nose for your entire skull, which if you've had TBI or concussion or allergies or things like that in the past, it totally reboots that entire system. There's going to also be ozone treatments, Myers' IV cocktails, exosome treatments, IV laser, access to a CVAC machine. And, John's entire facility is going to be at your beck and call if you got one of the VIP tickets.
And then, we're also probably going to have a little bit of a party later on in the evening after this event. The whole thing is going to be a pinch-me-I'm-dreaming full-on cutting-edge of biohacking experience. And, I'm just now letting the world know about it so spots are going to fill up pretty fast. Space is limited, but if you want to get in now, here's how. You go to BenGreenfieldLife.com/Elements-Event. That's BenGreenfieldLife.com/Elements-Event. It's in Sarasota, Florida. Again, it's all-day Friday, December 2nd. I would come in early and stay after. If you just want to try out all the crazy modalities there. I don't know how fast those VIP tickets are going to sell out, but either way, this thing is going to be absolutely amazing. I just can't wait, like I'm pinching myself, can't wait to be on the plane to head down there and do this. So, check it out, BenGreenfieldLife/Elements-Event. And, I'll see you there, I hope.
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We are working with a new company that makes an amazing kid's multivitamin. So, if you're looking for something for your kid but you have realized that most typical children's vitamins are basically candy in disguise. They got 2 teaspoons of sugar, unhealthy chemicals, bunch of gummy junk that growing kids should never eat is a problem. I'm always looking at these labels for my own kids, and in the past have just fed them liver because I haven't been able to find a good multivitamin. But, there's this company called Hiya, H-I-Y-A. It's a pediatrician-approved superpowered chewable multi. Most children's vitamins have, again, 5 grams of sugar, a couple teaspoons that contributes to a variety of health issues paradoxically. But, Hiya has zero sugar, zero gummy junk, non-GMO, vegan dairy free, allergy free, gelatin free, nut free, so super safe for any kid who's sensitive to that kind of stuff. They formulated it with the help of a bunch of nutritional experts and physicians. It's a blend of 12 organic fruits and veggies, then they supercharge it with 15 other essential vitamins and minerals like D, B12, C, zinc, folate. So, it supports your child's immunity, energy, brain function, mood, concentration, teeth, bones, you name it. And, the best part is my kids go ape nuts over this stuff.
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Alright, folks, if you've been listening to the podcast for a little while or if you've worked with my coaching program or read my book “Boundless” or really come across a lot of my recommendations when it comes to basically how to find a good doctor and how to get connected with the physician who actually knows what they're doing and practices the type of medicine that I would personally put my stamp of approval on for what it's worth, you've probably heard me use the term Wild Health. Wild Health is a network of physicians that practice some pretty advanced in cutting-edge forms of what could be called precision medicine or genomics-based medicine. And, we've done several podcasts before. I'll link to all of them in the shownotes for this episode, which you're going to find at BenGreenfieldLife.com/BeWild, BenGreenfieldLife.com/BeWild. They've got trained medical practitioners in all 50 states and they have been up to a lot of new initiatives behind the scenes. I actually traveled all the way down to Lexington, Kentucky to check out some of the new stuff that they're doing and to hang out with the mastermind behind Wild Health, Dr. Matt Dawson himself.
Now, before I let you get to know Matt a little bit better, I want to give you a quick preview of some of the stuff that they're up to that you're going to get to hear about today. They are taking athletic teams, pro athletes, some really high-performance squads and literally taking them through these unparalleled, unheard of genetic and medical optimization programs to basically create genetic freaks of nature and they're getting crazy results like massive increases in testosterone, decreases in CRP, stuff that goes way beyond like Tom Brady not eating nightshades way, way beyond that.
They've also got this brand-new artificial intelligence program. So, one of the times of the week that I tend to just rip my hair out is when I'm going through all these clients' labs; blood stool, urine, saliva. And, I'm personally doing a lot of interpretation of that as I know are hundreds of physicians and practitioners and providers across the country. And, the whole time I'm doing that, I'm like, “Man, why couldn't artificial intelligence take this person's exercise goals, their nutrition goals, their health history, their supplementation, and their entire medical history and all these different lab tests and actually be able to create a customized program for that person?”
Wild Health has cracked the code on that, which is amazing because I'm going to be able to use that in my own Ben Greenfield Life Coaching program. But, it's something that's literally going to change the world when it comes to labs and interpretation and the ability of super intelligence computer algorithms to be able to help you out with your blood work and your biomarker interpretation. They have a brand-new fellowship program for medical students, which we'll talk about. What's really interesting is they have demonstrated some pretty cool management and near reversal of a host of different metabolic and cardiovascular diseases with incredible results without the use of prescription medication that is so commonly used these days, especially in allopathic medicine.
And then, finally, a few execs out there who like to own nice things, so to speak, they have this exclusive — this is actually the first time that they're offering it anywhere but private on my podcast. It's a VIP health program that basically gives you a dedicated health coach, a dedicated care coordinator, a performance fitness coach, supplementation and medication management, your own nutritionist, custom genetic screening, full body MRI, CT scan, microbiome testing, complete lab panels, epigenetic age testing, cancer screening, sleep monitoring, biometric tracking, all your heavy metals, toxins, food allergy testing, adrenal function analysis, full DEXA scan, basically like the creme de la creme of an executive testing program along with ongoing personalized analysis of your biofeedback devices, your wearables. They've even got mindfulness coaching, breathwork coaching. It blew me away when I looked at what they're doing as far as their executive health programs. And so, anybody out there who basically wants everything done for them, that's also going to be something that you're going to learn more about on this show with my friend and Dr. Matt Dawson.
Matt is an athlete. He was a two-sport college athlete. He and I have played basketball. We've played pickleball. We haven't yet played tennis, but he can swing a tennis racket pretty good, too. He lectures all over the world. He trains thousands of physicians. He's got two textbooks. He's got an educational app he's created. He has combined his background of extensive training in genomics and functional medicine to give really, really good personalized and precise medical guidance and to lead the team at Wild Health. He's a cool guy. He's a friend. Most importantly, he's a dad, he's a husband, he's a family man, and he's just a good guy who happens to have a belly full of wild blueberry smoothie this morning.
How's that smoothie?
Matt: It was amazing. Now that you've covered everything you want to talk about just all pickleball. Now, can we talk about our aspirations?
Ben: We can talk about our pickleball aspirations. So, before we do, Matt and I went to this place. We've been eating amazing, amazing food all week. We went to this place called, it's your brother's place, a Feed and Supply. I actually just posted to Instagram this morning, but we basically punished about 10,000 calories worth of steak and charcuterie boards, adaptogenic smoothies. It's pretty good setup, yeah, there.
Matt: Yeah, I got a week of fasting help me to try to burn that off.
Ben: Exactly. But, we did have to get a smoothie in this morning, so I've got this way to make a giant ass smoothie. It's got 250 calories in it. I just use tons of ice, use stevia, use sea salt, a little bit of wild blueberries, a little bit of coconut yogurt, which is pretty low in calories, and then I just put a touch of collagen in there. And, the trick for anybody listening in, if you want to do this is you put a ton of ice in, then you have to use a blender that's got a spiralizing blade on it. And, the Ninja, you actually have one here, which is perfect. The Ninja works really good for this because you blend and that spiralizing blade introduces a bunch of air into the smoothie. So, it expands and expands, expands, you get this giant smoothie bowl and it looks like you're eating this massive acai bowl, but because of sweetened with stevia, it's got some sea salt in there, it's mostly ice, it's barely any calories, but it gives you that breakfast fix of haven't eaten a whole breakfast.
Matt: Yeah, I still don't know if I believe you. It's 250 calories because it was like my stomach is —
Ben: Yeah, but that's all expansive.
Matt: Yeah, it was perfect.
Ben: It's just gas, just like the stars. And then, we were supposed to play pickleball this morning, but I chickened out after a late-night dinner last night. You got a game in you?
Matt: Yeah. Yeah, I played. It wasn't my A game, but I played.
Ben: Yeah. So, those of you have not gotten on the pickleball bandwagon, actually, I'm interviewing one of the top pickleball pros later on this week, Tyson McGuffin, who I found out was my neighbor up in Spokane. I really liked pickleball when I found it a few months ago. And then, I got here and played singles with you and another friend down here. So, I've played competitive singles a few times since I got here. It's amazing, that sport, power, strength, speed, I'm hooked.
Matt: I knew. When you said you hadn't played singles before, I'm like, “This guy's going to be hooked” after this week because anybody that played, I mean it's just the funnest sport ever.
Ben: Oh, man, it's like mental chess. It's like ping pong with a whole bunch of power and strength. It's not like that old person's retirement community support anymore. And, from what I understand, it's the fastest-growing sport in the nation.
Matt: Yeah, I think LeBron James, Kevin Durant, Drew Brees, Tom Brady, they have teams in Major League pickleball.
Ben: It's crazy.
Matt: We're going to have a team like whether Major League Baseball knows it or not, we're coming for them.
Ben: Okay. So, for those of you listening, Matt and I have been talking about this. Wild Health has a baseball team right now, right?
Matt: Yeah, we have a minor-league baseball team. It's called the Wild Health Genomes. It's just a pretty funny thing to do. We've made a video about it, but we're totally switching to pickleball. That's the next thing for sure.
Ben: Alright. So, what would this look like to have a Wild Health-sponsored pickleball team? And, just so we don't bore people, I mean people probably want to know what you're doing to create these athletic freaks of nature. So, tell me about what you're doing with a baseball team that you would do with let's say a pickleball squad.
Matt: Yeah, sure. So, we have really in the last six months went pretty heavy into pro sports. It started by people just reaching out to us. They saw what we were doing, we had some athletes. Now, we have dozens of NFL, NBA, several three minor league baseball teams, entire teams. We're taking care of USA Boxing, several other Olympic sports as well and we're getting incredible results. Now, the pickleball thing, that's just a fun side obsession. But, that program, that kind of genetic optimization athletic program, it started as just it made sense. If you look at these athletes' genomics and do all this testing, they're going to do better. And now, we actually have results from it. I can tell you a couple examples.
Ben: Before you give me the results, I think a lot of people might not understand when you say that you put an athlete, and obviously if you're listening, you're not an athlete, this is going to be applicable to you, whether you want to perform in any aspect of life. You said genomics analysis. What's that actually mean?
Matt: Yeah. We sequenced everyone's DNA. We look at about 675,000 different snips.
Ben: That's saliva?
Matt: Exactly. It's a saliva test. So, it just comes to someone's home, they send it back. We look at all that. We strongly believe that genetics alone are almost worthless because it doesn't mean if you have a VDR sample, what is your vitamin D level? Like where do you live? Is it summer? Is it winter? If you have an MTHFR, well, what is your homocysteine level? What are you eating? What are you doing? What supplements are you taking? So, we combine that, those genetics with blood work, the microbiome, phenotypic data, all of this stuff and we look in total millions of data points that we can pull together and come up with a plan from that. So, a really personalized approach that doesn't really exist otherwise.
Ben: Right. So, there there's a lot of companies that do DNA testing. I mean, you know this or dime and dozen, we got like Dr. Ben Lynch's Dirty Genes. There's DNA fit that does more exercise and performance. There's Genetic Genie. There's that company up in Canada. I've had them on the podcast, The DNA Company. Are you saying that the difference would be you're taking the DNA but you're combining that with stool, blood, urine, food allergy data, the wearable data just like all of it at once? So then, you're able to see, okay, well, here's the genetics, here's the genetic predispositions, but then here's how it's actually manifesting, and here's all the other things that you got to pay attention to.
Matt: Yeah, that's exactly right. I mean, I shouldn't say it's useless, that's maybe offensive to those companies. But, when somebody tells me they have an APOE4, MTHFR, PMT or whatever, okay, then I've got a dozen more questions. I want to see their blood work. I want to see all these other data. And then, we can talk about what to do about it. We think there's really a next level that no one had done before and that's what we're doing now.
Ben: Yeah. And, I want to talk more about how to actually interpret all that stuff because that's, like I mentioned in the introduction, what's probably the hardest part of my week is when a client delivers me all these lab results and it's just me and my brain ticking away basically hours of my time pouring through this stuff, but we'll get to that later on and how a computer could be used to do the type of thing that I'm doing now to put me out of a job and cause me to just go, I don't know, sit in the forest staring at the sunset.
Anyways, though, the athletic program in terms of what this actually looks like and what kind of results that you're getting, tell me about what would happen with the average athlete who walks in and kind of testing they're getting and what you guys are seeing.
Matt: Yeah. I mean, the average athlete, there's tons of room for improvement. I think what's even more exciting is the extraordinary athlete. So, we have one that I can talk about because he's been public as Brandin Cooks. He's a top receiver in the NFL. He's been in the league for 10 years. Great results. But, when we started working with him and look back 2020-2021, we started working the end of 2021. And, in a year, he improved his 20-yard dash time 5%, increased his strength by 13% and we tested it, his max velocity over 4%, and his broad jump by 4 inches. So, for somebody's been in the league for 10 years, it's already doing everything right, he's kind of aging, 10 years in the NFL is a while to have those types of improvements, he was blown away. He had a career year. And, I mean for these athletes, it's not just they're performing better. I think his contract, the two years prior to us, he made 17 million. Pretty good for two years. His current two-year contract after all this is $39 million.
Matt: So, he's measurably objectively performing better. He's got a better contract and he's been a really incredible advocate. Most of our patients, we can't talk about even though we have dozens just for HIPAA reasons, but even then, there's a max contract NBA guy. I'll give you one more example and we'll talk about the results. Who came to us originally, he was having some mood issues throughout the season, anxiety, depression, it's a long season in the NBA. He also was having kind of some nagging injuries. And, when we got him on this optimization thing, he had major issues with his diet, with sleep, with all these other things, and taking this multifactorial approach. Last year, he was in talks for the MVP. He didn't win the MVP award, but again, a career year, it was a perfect storm for him. So, just to give you an example of a couple of things we did. His sleeping was very wrong for his chronotype. And, what we saw when he needed to sleep —
Ben: Did you know the chronotype best in his genetics?
Matt: So, a combination. We can look at clock genes, for example, but we also do use other data. So, we're pulling in any wearables that someone has like an Oura Ring, anything, Apple Health, Google Health, anything we can pull in. So, we're not just looking at genetics, not just the blood work, but even wearables and —
Ben: So, chronotype, you can see the sleep cycles and when they're entering different sleep phases and figure out they're going to bed too early, getting up too early, too late or too late, et cetera?
Matt: Exactly. He's doing all of that. So, he also was a slow metabolizer of caffeine, but all of his teammates, they would crush these Red Bulls and things before a night game and it was killing his sleep. He'd get up in the morning and just the whole day was a drag for him. He had a collagen 5a1 polymorphism. So, when we got him on more collagen protein, his injuries started going down.
Ben: What was that polymorphism?
Matt: Collagen 5a1. So, this is one that I had as well. When we first started, I was doing Ironman races, but I just had all of these injuries. But, when I increased my sardines, the collagen you put in that smoothie this morning, bone broth, I've not had a single tendon or ligament injuries since then.
Ben: Is that because there's an actual polymorphism that limits collagen synthesis which would affect your recovery?
Matt: That's exactly right. Yeah. And so, just a dietary, so asleep change, a dietary change, I think this guy, he also had a FAAH polymorphism, so CBD had a big impact on his deep sleep. But, just combine —
Ben: Meaning it helps his deep sleep?
Matt: Exactly. Yeah, it helped deep sleep. So, this is a great example of every time you see or you hear in a podcast someone say, “Hey, science says CBD improves sleep or caffeine improves performance,” well, what they're really saying is for 60% of people or 80%, or whatever it is, but then when you look at athletes like caffeine, for example, we've known for decades it's an ergogenic aid. So, this guy, he thought, okay, I'm going to play better with caffeine, but when you look at it, they've done 20K time trials on cyclists, fast metabolizer has a big increase in performance. Slow metabolizer, it actually hurts them. It's not that it doesn't help, it hurts them.
Ben: Yeah, I remember you telling me that once.
Now, with something like that, could they still take caffeine but put something along with it like say L-theanine or could you, for example, because lots of you drink coffee, it's not just caffeine, it's also paraxanthine, theobromine, so you could, for example, have them take two of the molecules from coffee that aren't caffeine or combine the caffeine with the L-theanine and just tweak and perfect their ratio based on that specific athlete?
Matt: Yeah. So, that's where the brain or the doctor brain comes in. So, you mentioned it replacing you. It'll never replace you, it just makes you better. So, in that example for this athlete, we may say, “Look, you're a slow metabolizer, it's probably going to hurt you. But, hey, let's do an experiment. Let's add some L-theanine or something and let's watch your data and see.” So, even though we are able to make much better predictions, also everything we do, we want to measure it, look at the ordering data, look at whatever else we're trying to measure, and see if their performance improved or not. And, we got a big head start because if the genomics blood work, everything else, we still want to be objective about those results.
Ben: Is that data that you're collecting something that could theoretically be fed into the artificial intelligence algorithm? I mean, if you got 1,000 athletes and you've tested let's say paraxanthine, theobromine versus caffeine, or CBD for sleep cycles, are you able to actually begin to use almost big data to perfect what a computer would be able to do or predict?
Matt: That's exactly right. So, just to give you an example of that. So far, we've seen thousands of people, but we've been translating the science to get results. So, for these athletes, we're seeing an over 20% increase in testosterone, 5% increase in muscle mass on average, which is a lot for 200-pound NFL player, 39% reduction in CRP. So, we've gotten those results by translating the evidence and sciences out there.
Now, we're going the next step. So, we just completed a merger with the world's most innovative AI company back in February. And, I'm not saying that that's what Fast Company named them. And now, we're looking to create science. So now, we've got thousands of patients, we've taken care of hundreds of pro athletes. We're looking at that data and we're making it even better. So, although we've got the world's greatest outcomes, we're going to be accelerating that now using AI. So now, because we're a part of this company, we have hundreds of software engineers, data scientists, PhDs, not just the physicians and PhDs we had. So, that's the next step for sure.
Ben: Right. Are you able to say what the company is?
Matt: For sure. It's LivePerson. So, they do conversational AI, was the main thing that they do. But, you actually introduced us to them. They wanted to get into healthcare and add this world's greatest AI stuff to healthcare.
Ben: Yeah, yeah. Well, I actually remember that conversation with one of the guys who was running LivePerson because we were actually going over his labs. And, as is often the case, like I was alluding to earlier, I was going over his blood and his stool and urine and I think we had some food allergy data. I think we had a micronutrient like a neutral type of data as well. And, I'm talking to this guy, I'm saying like, “Okay. Well, your reference ranges are telling you this but your goals are X, Y, Z or you'll run into another example will be like in somebody who wants to do an Ironman triathlon or triathlete but they're carbohydrate sensitive. And so, they're told based on their data that they're supposed to eat a low-carb diet. And yet, as somebody who's burning 4,000 calories a day that has nothing to do with their actual goals, there's all these things that feed into proper lab work interpretation.
And, as I'm talking to this guy, I think the actual question he asked me was like, “Dude, why couldn't a smart computer do everything you're doing right now if it had the right data?” And, I told him, “Look, that would be dream, but it just doesn't exist.” Because you have all these disparate lab companies, you have the saliva company and the blood company, and Genova diagnostics for the stool, and then you also have the training software company for the exercise component and the nutrition and the meal planning company for the meal planning and there's nothing that does it all at once. It's kind of like the one software program to rule them all if there was actually something that would allow you to do this. And, I was shocked when I was talking to him and he asked me that question and I got to thank him like, “Gosh, in the era that we live in is shocking that we can't just take a bunch of fluid from the human body, feed it through a computer and have it actually tell us based on not just our medical needs but our exercise goals, our nutrition, our lifestyle, everything, the supplements we're taking, what foods we like, what foods we don't like, what foods we're allergic to, what foods we're not allergic to. It could technically plan out all our health for us, but it just didn't exist.” And then, he's like, “Well, who's the closest?” I'm like, “Oh, Wild Health,” they have this clarity report, which I didn't read you about before, and they're kind of sort of on the cusp. And then, it turns out that you guys started making magic together.
Matt: Yeah. I mean, he's a visionary. So, Rob LoCascio is his name. He basically invented chat on the internet 25 years ago. And now, it's kind of revolutionized conversational AI. But, if you talk to him about something like this not existing that should, he's the type of guy that wants to go build it. And so, that's what he's doing. He wants to have an even bigger impact on the world. And, when he looked like what healthcare, I mean, they kind of scoured the globe. Like, who is closest to this? And, that's how we came together. Their data scientists and PhDs when they evaluated, they said, “Yeah, if we add our technology to this, we'll actually have that and create it.”
Ben: Okay. So, boots on the ground. What does this look? Is this a website that people could log into once they've got all their data submitted to a Wild Health doc or practitioner? Is it an app? What's the actual delivery mechanism as far as the user experience?
Matt: Yeah, it's like all of that actually. So, when someone signs up at wildhealth.com, we start collecting all the data. Again, the millions of data points, then we deliver it and there's a web interface where you kind of see like this is a dashboard.
Ben: I'm going to stop you right there. When you say collecting all the data, when this person signs up, do they get test kits in the mail? Do they need to go to a lab? Do they need to go see a doctor? How does that actually work?
Matt: Yeah. So, we want to make this as seamless as possible. So, they get a saliva kit for the DNA at home. They send that back. We put an order in for all the blood work and the lab tests. They go do that. All of that is fed into our program. And, you're talking about your brain on. I remember in the days we were doing that, it'll take me 10 hours to prepare this. Now, we don't. We shouldn't have a human brain, no matter how smart they are crunching this data. And now, all that comes into a system. It combines it all and then it spits out, “This is the perfect diet. This is the perfect exercise program. These are the supplements that will help you. These are the medications that will or won't work for you.” All of that is done. And then, the doctor or the bin brain just translates that and talk to the person and helps —
Ben: Just walks them through the report, but the computer is able to do a lot of the groundwork that I'm just burning my eyeballs out doing on a daily basis myself.
Matt: Yeah, all the heavy lifting.
Ben: Okay. So, based on that, if let's say there's, I don't know, a nutritionist or an RD or a trainer or a doctor and like, well, shoot, that's going to put me out of a job because the computer is doing my work, kind of like the trucking industry when we talk about robotic trucks taking over the truckers, what then does the practitioner wind up doing? Are they just able to work with more people because they've got a software service that's able to help those people instead of a live person? Are they basically able to just continually update the app or the website with new exercises and new meal plans and new diets? Or, what do you think it would actually look like in an ideal scenario for practitioner who's listening who's like, “Oh crap, this is going to put me out of a job.”
Matt: Yeah, they do the things a person should do. So, when you mentioned that like you're going to go off in the woods, I was thinking, no, instead of helping 10 people, you'll help 100 people, and you'll do what you do best, which is motivate them, translate it, help hold them accountable, and then —
Ben: Answer questions.
Matt: Exactly. And, this is precision and personalized medicine. It's not perfect. Nothing is perfect. There's a lot of hubris if we think we're going to just give the perfect plan with all this data. It's going to be a better plan, but we still need the human brain to say, “Okay, this is our goal, here's how we're probably going to get there. What is the objective measure?” And then, we remeasure and retest. So, if you think about chess, for example, we used to be the world's greatest chess player, then kind of Big Blue or whatever the IBM, Watson started playing chess and became the best player in the world. But, that's not actually the best player. The best player is a hybrid person with the AI, that is actually the best chess player. And, that's what we want to do, we want to take doctors and coaches, make them that centaur of AI machine and the person. And, that's going to be the best in the world.
Ben: Let's use training as an example. If you had enough workouts and exercises and exercise videos and you had a computer that knew that person's genetics, their fast twitch, slow twitch muscle fiber capacity, the fact that they want to do a Spartan at the beginning of the year and, I don't know, Ironman at the end of the year or they just want to be able to I don't want to say pass a Russian kettlebell certification or whatever, that program could actually be automatically generated by a computer.
And then, the role of that person's trainer would be, “Hey, I'm here to answer your questions. I'm going to show up at the gym with you and actually do this workout with you to motivate you.” And then, where my mind also goes is this happens to me a lot, well, not a lot, I don't want to make it sound like I'm injuring people right and left, but someone would be like, “Oh, I threw out my shoulder. I can't do this week's program workouts. What do I do as a substitute?” And then, when I ask you that question, not to get too complicated where my mind goes is couldn't you just feed into the computer, hurt my right shoulder, and then it would automatically adjust everything for the week theoretically?
Matt: You can. And, I mean, kind of like Rob, you're a visionary, you're seeing out in the future. That is a future state as well. We're getting closer and closer to that. And, I mean, every day and every month, it's getting a little better. But, that's where we're going like the continuing to optimize the program and the providers. We want not just the best AI, not just the best doctor, but combining the two. And, that's where someone like you can say, “The AI can do this much, but I know from experience this and we add that in.” And, over time, yeah, the AI will do more and more. I don't think there's ever going to be a time when there's no provider there necessary. The human brain is always going to have a role in this process as well.
Ben: And, who would have access to this? Like, do you have to be a doctor or have a gym where you have a doctor on staff to be able to order all the labs and the bloods and everything like that and start to feed people through this app or this software? Or, if somebody's sitting at home and maybe they're not a coach or a trainer or nutritionist or a doctor or something like that, but they're like, “Oh, I want to do this,” where does somebody actually go and what do they need to have access to to actually use this type of software, this program?
Matt: Yeah, a computer and a phone. So, we also delivered this via an app. We just launched the app in the last month. We have physicians in all 50 states, like you already mentioned, so we can prescribe, we can order labs, and things like that. And, it's all delivered virtually. So, no matter where you are, we can deliver this and you can do it with our coaches. We have physicians and coaches assigned to every patient and then we follow along but it's virtual. You don't have to come anywhere. There's lab testing places everywhere, the whole body, MRI —
Ben: Home phlebotomist, too.
Matt: Yeah. It's getting easier and easier to do this regardless of where you are. You don't have to be in the place where the best position or coach is. It can be delivered anywhere.
Ben: Okay. Because I do have a lot of personal trainers that listen in and people who are running exercise programs, coaches, nutritionists, et cetera. Let's use my Ben Greenfield Life Coaching program, for example. I've got a few dozen coaches. I meet with them a couple of times a month for office hours to go over client problems and do ongoing education with them. They go through this certification module where they learn a bunch of stuff from me and then they're a certified Ben Greenfield Life coach. So, when people come to me and they want to use my methods like the biohacking, the air, the light, the water, the electricity, the blood work, the training, nutrition, everything, and they get signed up for a program, they get connected to a coach who's interpreting that all for them.
Now, would I, in order to actually start to use this software for our Ben Greenfield Life Coaching program, need to just have one of your physicians be able to work with us to then give us access to the software? How would it look exactly?
Matt: Yeah. So, we actually have a training program as well. So, for example, your coaches are getting great training, and coaching specifically, they may not get the full precision medicine training. I'm not sure what your program looks like, but we trained hundreds of providers. So, we have a full fellowship to train doctors or health coaches to be able to interpret —
Ben: So, you don't have to be a doctor?
Matt: You don't. No, I mean our coaching program is MWBC, whatever the National Board of Health Coaching is. When you go through our fellowship, if you're a physician, you get CME credit for it. If you want to be a coach, even if you're not a coach yet, you can get nationally certified to be a coach going through our program. And then, you not only have that certification, but you also know the precision medicine component of it as well.
Ben: What if someone is just sitting at home and they're not a coach or a trainer but they just want to learn this stuff? Could they sign up too?
Matt: Yeah, absolutely. It's open to anyone. When we look for coaches, for example, that we're going to hire, having a coaching background is great, but what we really care about is someone who cares about people and really wants to make a difference in someone's life because we're doing that, like we're really having a big impact on people's health.
Ben: Okay. What type of topics, just give me a flavor of the type of topics that would be covered if someone were to go through a course like this?
Matt: Sure. So, a lot of it is just basic functional medicine stuff. So, it's a combination of the functional medicine and the genomics. That's what we find is not out there as much. There are functional medicine courses. There may be some precision medicine, which I'm actually not sure about that. We've created full 12-month fellowship to train someone from —
Ben: So, it takes a year.
Matt: Yeah. We also have a self-study that has all the contents over 100 hours of content. So, someone can do it on their own in a short amount of time. But, we think mentorship is also important, so we have weekly hangouts where we translate and do case studies and things like that as well. So, there's a self-study program that has the CME as well. But, if you want to be health coaching certified and then it's the full-year program because there's an amount of hours you have to do with the certified health coach.
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So, if you we to go over the course of the year, how many average hours per week do you think somebody would have to devote to studying this stuff?
Matt: So, as much as they want, so kind of a minimum is probably two to three hours a week. Most people probably spend five to six, but we have a lot of content. So, there's the in-person stuff once a week, there's the required, and then there's just a lot of resources there too. So, someone could spend 10 hours or more a week, which you can get it done, and as little as two to three hours a week.
Ben: And, can you download the videos and the audios and the media? Let's say I wanted to walk on the treadmill for an hour every morning for a year and just become a total expert in precision medicine during that process, could I just download stuff and have my phone set up and just do it like that?
Matt: Yeah, absolutely. This is not 1998 where all the students have to get in a classroom at the same time and all that ridiculousness. This is on your own asynchronous. We have some synchronous stuff once a week. We'll even record that. So, yeah, you could do it completely on your own time.
Ben: Yeah. You and I actually haven't talked a lot about this, but I feel like maybe I need to upgrade my knowledge base and jump in and do that myself. I haven't actually gone through your guys' full program. I'm sure a lot of what I've done in the past overlaps with some of it, but I'll talk with you later. But, maybe I'll go through that program myself because I'm an information sponge. I love to learn that stuff. I'm sure a lot of people listening in as well.
And, by the way, again I'm going to put the shownotes at BenGreenfieldLife.com/BeWild if you're listening and you're like, “Oh dude, I want to sign up and try this out.”
Now, this kind of leads me into a thing that I'm pretty excited about that you were filling me in on that I kind of gave a preview of when I was introducing you. And, that's the gold standard like what would it look like if we were to take everything that you guys are able to do and let's say like an executive or somebody who wants to go straight to the top as far as the services they receive. Tell me about this executive program.
Matt: Yeah. And, this is something we haven't talked about publicly. We just launched this in the last month and it's been referral only, but it is exactly what you talk about. There's a dedicated elite health coach, 24/7 access to a doctor and the health coach, every test you would ever want. I mean, we help people find their own personal chefs. And, we do obviously the genetic stuff, the lab, panel, microbiome, coronary CTA, Prinivil, full body MRI, gallery testing, epigenetic age testing, at-home sleep monitoring, heavy metals, toxins, everything. And basically, if you need it or want it, you're going to get it and it's all included in the program. I mean, this is probably a bad sales pitch for, but it's not something that everybody wants and needs. This is the elite. And, the cost is such. I mean, I'm happy to even talk about that. It's $50,000. So, it's a lot.
Ben: $50,000 for like a year?
Matt: For the year.
Matt: And, everything's included, all the tests, I mean just the whole-body MRI, thousands of dollars in the galleries almost a thousand. So, you're getting almost that in testing, but it's really for those athletes, those CEOs. I'll tell you an example. I had a COO of a public company who I was talking to her on the phone the other day. And, I'm not her doctor, I'm not smart enough. We got doctors a lot smarter than me taking care of these people. And, she had had migraines for years, like every other week, knock her out for a full day, which is expensive for a COO of a public company.
Matt: And, she was blown away because she wasn't having them period anymore. Once we did the whole optimization, she gained back whatever. That's 10% of her time. One work day per week. And, what's that is worth to her, it's way more than $50,000 in a year. So, I say the cost upfront because I don't want people to like it's not for everybody like we are regular —
Ben: Yeah. Well, because that's an executive program.
Matt: Exactly, yeah. I mean, it's been very important to us being to make this sustainable for everyone. So, our regular program is about a latte a day. I mean, it's around $100 a month. It's nothing for this kind of investment. But, for the executive, it is expensive. So, I don't want anybody to be shocked by that. And, it's been referral only. I'll tell you in the last week we've had about 20 people signed up. So, it's a popular thing that people are doing, but it's the crème de la crème like you mentioned, it's all the testing you would ever want. And, we priced it that way too because if the doctor and you and health coach say, “Hey, this would be beneficial,” we don't want you to think about it, we just do it and it's all included in the program.
Ben: What kind of stuff do you find out from a full-body MRI?
Matt: A lot. I mean, sometimes you just pick up the normal musculoskeletal stuff and we start to see, “Oh, this is why you're having aches and pains. Let's do something about it.” But, the main reason for the whole-body MRI is insurance. So, with these executives, if you think about it, you hear these stories all the time of an executive just having a heart attack all of a sudden or having cancer come out of the blue. And, the cancer didn't just start yesterday when you find it, it's probably been brewing for a few years. So, the three big screening things for these executives is let's do an AI driven clearly report, a CTA angiogram to really look at, make sure you're not going to have a heart attack and let's do a Galleri, which is the liquid biopsy for cancer and Prenuvo for solid tumors.
Ben: Okay. Prenuvo, that's the MRI.
Matt: Yeah, that's what we think is the best out there right now. So, we do those three. And, that's an insurance policy. We do those. We feel pretty good. You're not going to have a heart attack or get cancer in the next two or three years.
Ben: Which a lot of people walk around wondering about like how's my ticker and do I have some tiny tumor I need to be worrying about?
Matt: Yeah. So, just quit worrying about it, let's just test for those.
Ben: Yeah. Okay. So, that's the full-body MRI and the cancer screening. And then, everything else involves a lot of that blood, saliva, stool, urine, food allergy type of testing that we talked about. So, you take care of all of that.
And then, to somebody, if they have an existing wearable, like I'm an Oura guy, like I wear the Oura Ring, do you guys go with the specific wearable that you assign to everybody, or do you just work with what somebody has or likes coming in?
Matt: Yeah. It's anything and everything they have. So, we can pull all that data through APIs. You have your app, but we're going to be pulling it into our system as well to correlate it with everything else. So, it's all of those. And so, after you've done that insurance policy, all the other stuff you mentioned, that's your optimization. Let's level you up. Let's get your migraines taken care of, whatever else is bothering you. I mean, another CEO of a public company that I talked to had heavy metal issues that had no idea and he was having some issues from that and no idea that's what it was and we discovered that. So, insurance policy and then optimization to get you to the top of your game because it matters when you're performing at that level.
Ben: What about the brain? Because a lot of people, they have the fitness piece style and they're eating pretty healthy, but they still are just like, “Dude, I want to think faster.” I've heard about smart drugs. I've heard about nootropics. I've heard about microdosing. I've heard about neurofeedback, are you guys doing anything for mental optimization?
Matt: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, honestly, all of this helps mental optimization. If your body's not functioning at its top, your brain can't either. So, I mean, the heavy metal I mentioned, that can have a big impact, the nutritional testing see what foods are having a negative effect on you. All of this is for the brain too. We don't think of it in terms of let's fix the body or let's fix the brain or let's fix the gut, let's fix the whole person. That's a mistake that medicine makes is considering us a collection of organ systems when we're a whole person.
Ben: Yeah. But, I guess what I mean is more specifically from a more precise standpoint, like could you do a DUTCH complete urinary analysis looking at neurotransmitter balances? although I know that urinary levels don't necessarily reflect what you're looking at in neural tissue, it could give you an approximation or something like the Braverman neurotransmitter questionnaire which nootropic companies like Nootopia are doing. And basically, you could map out what that person's dopamine, serotonin, GABA, et cetera ratios are and then say not only here's what you should do for your body, but here's the smart drugs or the nootropics that would work well for you. Or, to give another sample, not to throw too much at you, could you do a SPECT scan or a QEEG, map out areas of the brain and prescribe someone a specific neurofeedback program to remap the brain, things like that?
Matt: Yeah, absolutely. And then, you take it to the next level. So, as you're saying that, I'm thinking about a professional race car driver that we took care of. And, we did all of that. Because it's all about reaction time with professional race car driver. So, we did all that. Let's optimize the brain and then let's test. So, there's plenty of apps out there to test your reaction time and mental acuity. So, we'll give the recommendations based on all the data, and then let's follow it. And then, we can do all the things that you talked about like let's try this nootropic, let's try this medication, this supplement, and see how it affects you. So, we do these experiments based on the data we have and then make sure it's causing an improvement.
Matt: There's not something because the body is infinitely complex. Even if we're looking at millions of data points, sometimes there's unintended consequences. So, we want to catch those quickly with the objective data.
Ben: Right. Wow. I mean, it's a pretty complete program, but obviously, like you said, it's expensive at least relative to the average personal trainer or relative to your less expensive basic Wild Health program. But, it kind of begs the question for, let's say the average person who's maybe not an exact, let's just say I don't even like the average sick person, I know you were talking to me about some of the things you guys have been doing for everything from like LDL and lipid panels to risk for diabetes, Alzheimer's, et cetera.
Tell me about what you've been doing with sick people and what you've actually seen in terms of chronic disease.
Matt: Yeah. So, for your average, I was going to say like you and I, I'll say like I, you're not the average person. But, for someone who doesn't necessarily aren't trying to get that last 1%, but they've really got some issues, we have a real heart and passion for that because that's the most of the world and we want to have a big impact on the world and we're seeing phenomenal results with that. So, I think you mentioned kind of diabetes or A1C. We were getting ready, we just submitted our first white paper, so I can't talk about all the results but I can tell you a few things that we've been public about. You mentioned LDL, so LDLP not to get into to the debate on how important that is but if you think LDLP no matter how important you think it is, on average, we get about a 33% reduction in that, which it's a little more than a statin without all the side effects.
Ben: Right. Which is important because LDLP is not necessarily a bill in and of itself but it's necessary but not sufficient for heart disease. It can give you clues at least.
Matt: Yup. And, you think about combining that with inflammation, which we think probably is a bad thing. CRP, we get, I think, the numbers around a 50% reduction is pretty incredible for someone who has CRP down or up and inflammation. We all know that metabolic health is critically important for the brain. Like you mentioned, for cancer, heart attacks, it drive all of these things. So, A1C is one of the things I'm most excited about when you look at our results. So, for people who aren't perfectly familiar with the numbers, I'll give you some comparisons. I'm not going to name these companies, so I don't want to get in trouble, but who we consider to be two top companies in the world when it comes to metabolic health and A1C reduction, they reduce A1C by 0.9 and 1.2%, which is big. So, if you think of someone who has an A1C of 6.5, they're diabetic. 5.7 to 6.4 is pre-diabetes. So, if you reduce that by 0.9, bringing them down to 5.6, they're no longer diabetic. So, that's a big decrease, 0.9.
Ben: And, just so everyone know, the A1C being the three-month snapshot of your blood glucose levels.
Matt: Exactly. So, these two both are multi-billion-dollar companies. One was acquired for over 10 billion, the other is worth billions, 0.9 and then 1.2, these two companies. Our average is 1.9. When we look at people who have pre-diabetes —
Ben: Say what those was again.
Matt: 0.9 and 1.2.
Ben: You guys, 1.9.
Matt: So, another way to say that when we look at people who come to us with pre-diabetes or diabetes, 49% of them after six months do not have diabetes. They're A1C is 5.6 or less, which if you look at a comparison to normal programs, about 3% of people have complete normalization of A1C, it's almost half, 49% of the people over six months we get normalization, which I hesitate to talk about sometimes because general medicine says you can't cure diabetes. Well, we are and we're publishing these results right now, but it's the amount of cancer, heart attack, stroke, dementia that we're going to drive down with that is a really exciting thing to me.
Ben: Well, I know that I've seen, for example, some research showing reversal of pancreatic cell dysfunction, which is one of the primary causes of diabetes or pre-diabetes occurring in response to carbohydrate mitigation like a low carb or ketogenic diet kind of begs the question, when you talk about that reduction, what is it that you're doing or prescribing or recommending that you think is different that's actually affecting that type of change?
Matt: Yeah, it's a great question. It's also kind of asking like, “Hey, here's a Picasso, which of those colors makes it beautiful?” Because it's usually multifactorial like you name the things that obviously reducing someone's sugar intake and carbohydrates that's going to have an effect. But, it's really everything together. It's the combination of that, the dietary things, taking away the foods that are harming them, getting them on a better exercise program. Sometimes we'll use medications as well. That's not the first tool we go to, but we are physicians, we could do metformin or supplement like berberine or something else. But, it's everything together and then measuring it. And then, refining that over time is where you get the big impacts. Actually, doing this in a personalized way based on someone's data, genetics, blood work, and having a coach holding their hand through it, that's where the magic happens.
Ben: Okay. So, back to the lipids and this, I guess, could be a little bit illustrative of the need for something like an algorithm that the static can be fed through. A lot of times people come to me and they're freaking out because of typically their LDL, they have high cholesterol, high LDL. I skip straight over to blood glucose and hemoglobin A1C because high levels of blood glucose or high glycemic variability can actually oxidize that cholesterol in the bloodstream. Same thing with inflammation, CRP. So then, I go look at CRP, then I look at the triglyceride to HDL ratio, which is the so-called atherogenic index that's more predictive of heart disease than cholesterol. And occasionally, the actual particle size, if that's something that they've had measured. Let's say the particle size is finally got big fluffy LDL particles, they've got low hemoglobin A1C, they've got low glucose, their inflammation is just fine assuming they haven't worked out the day prior, and their triglyceride, HDL ratio is fine. Let's say their HDL is 100 and their trigs are 60 or something like that.
I'll go back to that person and be like, “Hey, you got nothing to worry about.” And, as a matter of fact, I personally try to keep my cholesterol above 200 because of the advantageous effects on hormones, on cell membrane stability, et cetera. But, I'm going through and looking at all that myself. Could a computer basically say, “Okay, this person has come in with high cholesterol, but you know what, we don't have to worry about the high cholesterol or the lipids because all these other values look just fine.” As a matter of fact, this person has a pristine lipid panel, even though reference ranges in modern medicine would indicate that they need to be on a statin or something like that.
Matt: That's exactly right. And, you hit on some important points too that I think it's John Muir, it's a great quote that “Anytime you try to isolate anything and try to pull on one string like, you find it connected to everything else.” So, a lot of times one of the mistakes you make in medicine is, “Okay, we're going to get someone's A1C down, improve their metabolic health.” So, we switch them to a ketogenic diet without any really data. And, that probably will work but then we may see their LDLP or some of these things skyrocket. So, we've improved one thing and we've heard another thing. And, that some individuals we see too maybe their cholesterol is a little high but they've got no inflammation, so we're not as worried about the combination of a clearly scan like a CTA, like perfect CTA, no inflammation. Okay, we'll tolerate a little, an increase in their lipids for that A1C reduction. But, being able to combine all of that to know where we have room to push, what we need to focus on, and having a computer do that for us, we think is the best way to do that.
Ben: Right. Because then even like let's say that you have somebody who does have pre-diabetes or diabetes and you decide, okay, this is going to be a candidate for a low carb ketogenic diet and you're not using some kind of algorithm or you're not looking at genetic data, and that person has familial hypercholesterolemia and they've got perhaps elevated liver enzymes and poor liver and gallbladder function dictating that they're going to do super crappy and have liquid diarrhea on a ketogenic or a low carb diet that's high in saturated fats. And, maybe they've got a APOE4 gene that would dictate that they're going to get Alzheimer's or dementia with the high intake of saturated fats due to inflammation in the brain. You would actually have to take that person and say, “No, you're not going to do a standard high saturated fat ketogenic diet, we still want to limit carbs. But, because of your genetics, you're getting more of a candidate for let's say a high flavanol, high polyphenol vegetable, and fiber-rich low carb Mediterranean diet and do tiny, tiny tweaks like that.”
Matt: That's it. And, sometimes there's trade-offs like we want to be real about the trade-offs. So, we may have a pro athlete who we're thinking with their performance like you've put athletes on ketogenic diets and they've done great before, which is usually a great thing. But sometimes, these athletes have so much inflammation from the hard workouts. They may have the familial hypercholesterolemia. And, no one's even thinking or caring about that because we're all thinking about just performance. But, we find those people on a CT angiogram and they have real atherosclerosis from a lot of inflammation and from that diet. So, we need to talk about them about, “Hey, this may optimize your performance, but let's think about you at 60. You have an APOE4, like you mentioned, you've already got atherosclerosis, the lipids aren't probably going to have an impact on your performance right now but it may have an impact on your risk of getting dementia and having a stroke later.”
Matt: So, being able to look into the future for these athletes too, they can make trade-offs on how we do their diet and training and other things.
Ben: Right. And, there's some sports where you're always going to be fighting uphill battle like Ironman, for example, you just can't be a perfect picture of health if you've made a goal to do an Ironman in January. But, you can at least work to mitigate the damage and the rampant levels of inflammation and the thyroid dysregulation. And, the endocrine dysfunction is going to occur from ultra-endurance until that person's done and perhaps give them the message that maybe it's not something they should do their whole life once they've kind of checked off that personal Mount Everest they want to climb.
Matt: Yeah, we've helped athletes figure out when to retire. I mean, you get to a point in your athletic career where, okay, you're going down, you can still make money for a little while, but you've got a family, you have investments, you want to get into something after athletics. And, if we're sacrificing your future for a little more performance now where, “Look, you're already on the decline, you're burnt out a little bit,” we can help you figure out kind of when to retire as well versus when to double down. You've got a few more years of good production in you.
How much are you relying on bringing in experts or bringing in speakers? When I was down here on this last trip, we were originally planning on doing an event where I could teach some of the people that come in. And, I think we're going to focus on meditation, breathwork, and stuff like that, and we planned it out too late and didn't wind up doing it. But, from what I understand, you guys are starting to roll out almost like series of educational events that the general public could attend where you get to listen to an expert. I think you call it Awake and Aware, Awake and Aware series.
Matt: Yeah, that's right. I mean, we have a podcast as well, the Wild Health Podcast where we're trying to bring experts on and talk about specific topics. The Awake and Aware events are something I'm really excited about because they're actually a little different than just performance. We try to think about the person like the mind, body, and soul. And, the Awake and Aware events are more geared towards that soul part.
Like at our last event, you just mentioned we had one a few weeks ago. We had an NFL player here and yeah, he's one of the ones that broke my sauna that we're talking about the other day.
Ben: He find that the barrel sauna has a weight limit.
Matt: Yeah. You don't want four 250-pound guys on one side. Just word to the wise if you got a barrel sauna. So, a really special thing for me was see, he had some real emotional releases around some breathwork and things that we did. And, he left the conference and I just thought, “Man, this guy is going to really take you to the next level in his just spiritual life and his soul. And, he's not going to have an impact on his contract.” Well, I'll be honest with you, I don't really care. Like, I want to have an impact on his life as well. And, the Awake and Aware —
Ben: Of an infinite impact.
Matt: Exactly. And, that's what the Awake and Aware about. We've proven we've got the world's best signs and world best outcome with athletes, regular people. But, we want to give people, okay, let's not just live longer but let's have a reason to live longer. Let's make it a good life, not just a long life. And, with these athletes, it's not just be about athletic performance and physical performance but let's get your mind right so that there's not this post-athletic career depression and all these other problems that come along with it. So, that's what the Awake and Aware events are about. We've got a few coming up.
Ben: Yeah, tell me about some of those are coming up —
Matt: Yeah. This is a cool one. It's not what you think of that we're doing, but we have a relationship one in January. Couples can come too. We have one with Ryan Holiday in Austin. I think it's in February where we'll talk about stoicism and how that plays in. We have one, a breathwork, specific one here at the castle in January as well with James Nestor. So, some really big names. Vishen Lakhiani is going to speak at one of them upcoming.
Ben: Yeah, one of them I've got to find some good pickleball courts so I can tempt you to come to show up as well. But yeah, some really cool events where we go deeper not just the body.
Matt: Yeah. And, you said the castle. If you guys are listening, you have no clue what Matt meant by that. We're not in some medieval locale in Italy. Basically, like the Wild Health headquarters are at an actual freaking castle, like a giant stone castle 15 minutes from the airport in Lexington with this beautiful farm, and sheep and goats, and a teaching garden, and a spa, and barns. And, this castle with like a farm-to-table restaurant, you go stay out in one of the castle, what do they call them, spires, those towers on either end of the castle, and there's farmhouses and tiny houses. My wife and kids and I have been staying here for a week and it's kind of an experience just to come up to the castle. But, you have the ability to host some of these Awake and Aware events here and then you're also hosting them in some other towns too.
Matt: Yeah. And, the last one we had was sure it's 110-acre property and been an hour on the back of it right now where we can see sheep and horses and all these animals. But, on the very back of the property, you have about a 400-year-old burrow tree. And so, the last one we did we spent most of the time out there which is —
Ben: It's a cool tree.
Matt: Yeah, it is. It's my favorite tree. I don't know how many people have a favorite tree, but this is my favorite tree.
Ben: Yeah. And, people can come here and walk around and be in the sunshine and eat organic food. It's kind of like whether or not you're interested in jack squat of anything we've just talked about, just come out and seeing the castle is actually pretty cool.
The Awake and Aware events, I can link to those at BenGreenfieldLife.com/BeWild. And then, also this fellowship that you talked about that anybody can take, I know that that's something that just ongoing throughout the year, right?
Matt: Yeah. And, both of those are really important to us for a couple of reasons. The Awake and Aware, like I mentioned, we really want to help people have a reason, not just get them healthy. And, the fellowship is important because we're starting to get kind of overwhelmed with the number of people coming and we need to train more people to do this. And so, I asked before we recorded this, and I think we've got a 20% off discount code for either of those. If you sign up for the Awake and Aware conference or the fellowship, I think you put in BEN20 and you can get 20% off those. Those are important to us from kind of a heart perspective with Awake and Aware and just we need more providers helping us in working with.
Ben: And, that 20% code, that will work on that curriculum that we talked about where people want to just go in and study precision medicine whether they're a doctor or not, they could use that code and get 20% off that full year of training as part of the fellowship?
Matt: That's exactly right. Yeah.
Ben: Cool. We're going to make a lot of smart cookies with this podcast.
Matt: I hope so.
Ben: Hopefully a lot of healthy people, too.
What else are you excited about this coming up in the future for Wild Health? I mean, obviously, we talked about a lot of cool stuff coming on the pipeline.
Matt: Yeah. So, the first thing that comes to my mind, which I'm hesitating whether to mention, I think I'm going to because I may get in trouble for this because it's not public at all. As I mentioned, we really want to be able to do this for anyone and everyone regardless of their ability to pay. And, in the next year, we're going to have it to where you can just use your insurance. And so, anyone could be able to afford this. And now, I'll tell you, when we do launch that, if you're able to do the functional medicine, precision medicine, get the results we are and just people use their insurance for it, we're going to be overwhelmed and we're probably not going to have capacity.
But, for everyone who is signing up now and paying the cash pay, which is around $100 per month, those are going to be the first people have access to that. I mentioned that because it's most exciting to me because anyone will be able to do it. But, I really would want to push the fellowship as well because we're going to need more providers, more doctors, and health coaches who are able to help provide that.
Ben: Even though you have the computer algorithms and artificial intelligence, you're still going to need providers to be able to help get people into the program.
Matt: Exactly. For two reasons. One, like I mentioned, will never replace the human brain ever. A computer is not going to have the empathy and compassion and be able to motivate someone to really care about them, and also when we're billing your insurance, there's codes and we need actual providers doing that.
Ben: Oh, yeah, that's a good point. The computer can't build the insurance. But, what you're saying is somebody could say, “Okay, I want to do the genetic testing, urine testing, get the stool, get the blood work, do all these things that typically people are paying out of pocket for because these are the fancy things that insurance doesn't cover or exercise or meal plan.” You think insurance could actually cover someone being able to get their exercise program and meal plan right now for them?
Matt: Yeah, exactly. And, nutritional counseling, there's a code for that with Medicare and with a lot of other health plans. There's even a code, yeah, for a lot of the exercise stuff. So, we're getting really creative with how, and this thing is we know that's what works. It's not just the precision, there's the nutritional component and exercise. And, traditionally insurance hasn't paid for that, but there are codes where it will now.
Ben: When I was a personal trainer, that's always boggled my mind because the main way I ran a lot of my facilities was partnered with physicians in Spokane in the Coeur d'Alene area. And, by partner, I mean, I would go to their offices and tell them, “Hey, look, I'm a personal trainer. Here's my credentials, here's the facilities I have.” And, a lot of times the physicians would come and train with me, and then they'd see what I could do and they'd send their patients over to me. But, all these patients are paying out of pocket. And, what you're saying is that technically, in that similar scenario, we now live in an era where people could have their insurance cover them going and seeing a personal trainer or working with a Wild Health practitioner or getting their meal plan right now for them.
Matt: Yeah. And, it has to be a physician or a nationally certified health coach. And so, that's the kind of providers we have and that's what I'm most excited about. When we first started, it was just too expensive for most people. In the exact program, it still is too expensive for most people. But, to be able to do this for anyone, have those types of results, and not cost them much money, that's a dream.
Ben: It's kind of unheard of. I don't think most people in the exercise and nutrition industry even know that technically insurance could cover this stuff.
Matt: Yeah. And, it's complicated like the payroll is just such a complicated mess, but for the last few years we've been diving in and I think we've got it figured out.
Ben: Yeah. That's going to actually change a lot of things when it comes to people being able to do this and sustain it throughout the year.
Matt: Yeah, I think so.
Ben: Wow. Alright. That is a lot of stuff. We just fed you guys through the fire hose as far as everything Wild Health is up to. I know that many of you might have questions, you might have comments, you might have feedback. I'm going to link to everything we talked about. I'll put that discount as well for the precision medicine program, the fellowship in the shownotes. I'll put all the information about their upcoming Awake and Aware events, the executive program, the athletic program, all at BenGreenfieldLife.com/BeWild. And then, of course, stay tuned for the first-ever professional pickleball team full of athletic genetic freaks powered by the Wild Health athletic optimization because that's going to happen, right?
Matt: That's right. And, one last thing I'll mention I just now realized we didn't talk about. I don't want to confuse people. Obviously, we have an Instagram, I think it's at Wild Health MD or something like that. I'm too old to keep up with that, but it's something like that. And, the exec program that you won't find anything about that on our website. I just realized that, I mean it was first time we've talked about publicly, that in the past, it's been a referral-only program. So, if you're interested in that, just go to the Contact Us at wildhealth.com and put in that you were referred by Ben and myself. And hopefully, that'll kind of get you to the top of the queue. But, yeah, everything, any questions you have, anything, it's going to be at wildhealth.com if you're interested.
Ben: Alright, awesome. So, wildhealth.com. I'll link to all this stuff at BenGreenfieldLife.com/BeWild.
Matt, dude, another fascinating conversation. For those of you like this conversation, I'll link to all my other conversations with Matt and the team as well and the shownotes if you want to go back and listen to some of them. And, we take a deep dive into precision medicine a whole lot more on those episodes too. But, in the meantime, man, maybe it's time for another blueberry smoothie. What do you think?
Matt: Yeah, or some pickleball.
Ben: Alright, folks, thanks for listening.
Howdy, howdy, howdy, ho, folks. I am hiring. That's right, I'm hiring. Ben Greenfield Life is looking for an IT specialist. What that means is I need somebody who can help me out with technical and web development support software systems, optimal performance of the websites, platforms, the users, the team. I'm really looking for somebody has a few years working in the IT field who knows things like e-mail service provider, Shopify, WordPress, Klaviyo, backups, you name it, and who also is preferably interested in things like health and fitness and biohacking. Sauna, Slack, Zoom are three of the programs that we use to support the team at Ben Greenfield Life, and preferably whoever applies for this position has some pretty good interpersonal skills and can work across a wide variety of teams and customers and external vendors. And also, just be a total tech-head who can fix stuff that goes wrong from a technical standpoint.
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More than ever these days, people like you and me need a fresh entertaining, well-informed, and often outside-the-box approach to discovering the health, and happiness, and hope that we all crave. So, I hope I've been able to do that for you on this episode today. And, if you liked it or if you love what I'm up to, then please leave me a review on your preferred podcast listening channel wherever that might be and just find the Ben Greenfield Life episode. Say something nice. Thanks so much. It means a lot.
Wild Health is, in my opinion, the most cutting-edge medical network in America.
This network consists of precision medicine practitioners in all 50 states delivering the most advanced and customized medical care I've ever experienced.
I've interviewed several Wild Health doctors in the past on the podcast, including on the following episodes:
- Everything You Need To Know For Antivirus & Immune System Enhancement: A Special One-Two Podcast Episode With Dr. Matt Cook, Dr. Matt Dawson, & Dr. Michael Mallin.
- How To Use Precision Medicine To Enhance Athletic Performance, Defy Aging, Balance Hormones, Fix The Heart & Much More.
- Why Your DNA Is Worthless (& What You Need To Focus On Instead)
- CBD & Cannabis Special Episode: How CBD Affects Hormones, Fat Loss, Athletic Performance, Sleep, Recovery & Much More
Lately, there has been plenty of exciting changes at Wild Health, including a genetically-optimized athletic team for maximal and sustained performance and recovery, data treating metabolic and cardiovascular disease with incredible results without the use of prescription medication, a brand-new artificial intelligence program to read labs and interpret bloodwork, a fellowship program for medical students, an entire 2022 conference series available to the general public…
…and even a concierge, high-touch executive health program usually available by referral only but now available to my audience as an exclusive (it’s a VIP, 360° health program built with busy executives and entrepreneurs in mind), that includes the following:
- Dedicated Elite Health Coach and unlimited health coach visits
- Dedicated Care Coordinator – to help you get your tests, labs, meds, etc, when and where you need them
- Performance Fitness Coach – to deliver a personalized training plan and help you along the way
- Supplement and medication management – Wild Health orders them for you, delivered to your home
- Chef/nutritionist facilitation – we’ll help you find someone right for you
- Extensive testing battery – as indicated and at home when available
- Repeat testing included, as necessary
- Personalized analysis of biofeedback device
- Mindfulness coaching
- Breathwork coaching
My guest on today's show is Wild Health CEO and my friend, Dr. Matt Dawson.
Dr. Matt Dawson has been obsessed with performance optimization for as long as he can remember. He received scholarships to play two sports in college even with “minimal talent” because of his voracious reading and implementation of any fitness or nutritional techniques that would give him an edge. After continuing that obsession in medical school, as a physician, he has won numerous national awards for education, innovation, and leadership. Matt has lectured in over 20 countries and trained thousands of other physicians through live lectures, online education, two textbooks, and even an educational app. He combines his training in genomics and functional medicine to give personalized, precise medical guidance.
Matt's obsession with performance optimization has morphed from initially athletic to mental performance, business performance, and longevity. Whether it's a professional athlete or a grandparent optimizing their mental clarity and mobility to keep up with their grandkids, Matt is passionate about helping everyone perform at their absolute peak. Also, if you're interested in Wild Health (which is likely after you listen to this episode), you can get 20% off a membership with code BEN20.
During our discussion, you'll discover:
-Why Wild Health went into pro sports and their Genetic Optimization Athletic Program…13:19
- Now have dozens of teams in the NFL, NBA, three minor league baseball teams, USA boxing, and several other teams playing Olympic sports
- Wild Health looks at these athletes' genomics and does all this testing
- Wild Health Podcast – Optimizing Team Sports Strategy with Nate Barry, Erik Jernstrom, and Ryan Baugus
- Wild Health Genetic Optimization Athletic Program
- Genomics – saliva test
- Combine genetics with bloodwork and microbiome, phenotypic data
- Millions of data points can be pulled together to come up with a plan
- DNA Fit
- Genetic Genie
- The DNA Company
- Wild Health testing combines stool, blood, urine, food allergy data, wearable data
-What does the Athletic Program do to the average athlete? What are they getting out of it and what are you seeing in terms of results?…16:44
- There's tons of room for improvement for the average athlete
- An example would be NFL player Brandin Cooks
- Playing for 10 years with great results
- When he started working with us 2020, in a year, he improved his 20-yard dash time by 5%
- Increased his strength by 13%
- As tested, his max velocity over 4%
- Broad jump by four inches
- Prior contracts were $17 million, his current two-year contract is $39 million
- Another example is an NBA player
- Had mood issues throughout the season; anxiety, depression, and also was having some nagging injury issues
- Major issues with his diet, sleep
- Last year, he was in talks for the NBA MVP
- Sleep problems – we look at clock genes/chronotypes; we're not just looking at genetics, not just blood work but even wearables
- He also was a slow metabolizer of caffeine
- Got him on more collagen proteins, and injuries started going down
- Had Collagen 5 a1 polymorphism; Ancient Nutrition Collagen Protein
- Also had FAAH polymorphism; CBD helped his sleep
- Can take coffee but put something in it like L-theanine
-Could the data collected, be fed into the artificial intelligence algorithm?…21:59
- So far, data from a thousand people have been gathered and translated to get results
- 20% increase in testosterone on average
- 5% increase in muscle mass for our athletes
- 39% reduction in CRP
- Just completed a merger with the world's most innovative AI company
- Looking at the data from a thousand patients and hundreds of pro athletes to create and improve the science
- Great outcomes are being accelerated using AI
- Ben actually introduced Rob Locascio of LivePerson to Wild Health
- Rob invented online chat for brands 25 years ago and wants to have an even bigger impact on the world
-Is this a website that people can log into? Is it an app? What is the actual delivery mechanism?…26:33
- Sign up at Wild Health (use code BEN20 to save 20%)
- A saliva kit is sent for a DNA at home
- The saliva kit is sent back
- An order is put in for all the blood work and the lab tests (millions of data points)
- The results are fed into the program, put into the system, and is combined
- It then puts out a:
- A diet plan
- An exercise program
- The supplements that'll help
- The medications that will work or won't work
- The computer does all the heavy lifting
- A doctor then translates that; walks the patient through the report
-Then what does the practitioner do? Does this put the practitioner out of a job?…28:04
- Instead of helping 10 people, the practitioner will be able to help 100
- Practitioners continue to do what they do best, which is motivating, translating, help hold people accountable
- This is precision and personalized medicine
- We're giving out a better plan with all this data, but it's not going to be the perfect plan
- A practitioner is still needed to say:
- This is our goal
- Here's how we're probably going to get there
- What is the objective measure, then we re-measure and re-test
- The best is a hybrid – a doctor/coach working with the AI
- A coach would be: I'm here to answer your questions, I'm going to show up at the gym with you and actually do this workout with you, to motivate you
- That's where we're going, continuing to optimize the program – the best AI combined with the best doctors
- AI will continue to improve, but there's only so much AI could do
- The human brain will always have a role in this process
-What do you need in order to have access to the program?…31:48
- Just need a computer and a phone
- Physicians are available in all 50 states to prescribe, order labs, etc.
- This is all delivered virtually, with a physician and a coach assigned to every patient
- Ben Greenfield Life Coaching
- Wild Health training programs: Full training programs for doctors but open to non-doctors as well
- Physicians – CME credits
- Coaches – National Certification
- Open for everyone
- Course outline:
- Basic functional medicine
- Combination of functional medicine and the genomics
- 12-month fellowship
- Self-study that has all the contents (over 100 hours of content)
- Mentorship (weekly hangouts where we translate and do case studies, etc.)
- Health coach certification, which is a 4-year program
- Courses are downloadable, so you can study at your own pace
- Minimum is 2 to 3 hours per week
- Most would do 5 to 6 hours
-What about Wild Health's Executive Program?…41:52
- By referral only
- There would be a dedicated elite health coach and 24/7 access to a doctor and the health coach
- Personal chef
- Every test you would ever want
- Custom genetic screening
- Exhaustive laboratory panel
- Microbiome testing
- Coronary CTA Scan with 3D rendering and AI analysis
- Prenuvo full-body MRI
- Galleri Grail cancer screening
- Epigenetic age testing
- At-home sleep monitoring
- Wearable for biometric tracking included
- Heavy metals and toxin testing
- Food allergy testing
- NutrEval micronutrient and amino acid profile
- Urinary sex hormone and adrenal function analysis
- Dexa Scan bone density and body composition
- The Executive Program costs $50,000 for the year
- One current client is a COO of a public company who had migraines for years; once she had the whole optimization program, the migraines have gone completely
- The regular program is $100 a month
-What kind of stuff do you find out from a full-body MRI?…44:28
- Musculoskeletal stuff
- The main reason for whole-body MRIs is insurance
- So the three big screening things for these executives is:
-Do you have a specific wearable that you assign to everybody?…45:48
- Any wearable will do
- We can pull all that data through APIs
-Are you doing anything for mental optimization?…46:40
- The entire program helps mental optimization
- We don't think of it in terms of let's fix the body, or let's fix the brain, or let's fix the gut
- All of this is to fix the whole person
- We give recommendations based on all the data, and then follow it
-What have you been doing to help sick people, and what have you seen in terms of chronic disease?…49:40
- Just submitted a white paper for diabetes, not ready to go public yet
- LDLP is important in that it gives you clues for heart diseases, combined with inflammation; on average, 30% reduction
- 50% reduction in CRP
- Metabolic health is critically important for the brain
- A1c reduction on average is 1.9
- 49% of pre-and diabetic patients are cleared after 6 months, with A1c of 5.6 or less
-What is it that you're doing or prescribing or recommending that you think is different?…53:04
- Reducing sugar and carbohydrate intake has an effect
- It's really everything together, the combination of dietary things, taking away the foods that are harming them, and getting them on a better exercise program
- Sometimes, medication is also used
- Measuring and then refining over time to get the big impacts,
- Done in a personalized way, based on someone's data, genetics, and bloodwork, with a coach guiding is where the magic happens
-Any concerns about the algorithm?…54:05
- “When you try to isolate anything and try to pull on one string, you find it connected to everything else”
- One of the mistakes of medicine: We've improved one thing, but we've hurt another thing
- Being able to combine all, to know where we have room to push what needs to be focused on, and having a computer do that for us, is the best way
-What is the Awake and Aware series?…59:30
- Series of educational events that the general public could attend, where they get to listen to an expert
- Wild Health Podcast
- Awake and Aware events: (use code BEN20 to save 20%)
- Wild Health Fellowship (use code BEN20 to save 20%)
-And much more…
- Elements Of Vitality with Dr. John Lieurance, Ben Greenfield & Friends: December 2, 2022, 8:00 AM – 5:00 PM EST.
Dr. John Lieurance & Ben Greenfield offer a rare experience to explore the elements of Earth, Fire, Air, and Water with unique treatments, technologies, modalities, and biohacks to represent the healing powers of each element individually. Learn more here.
- Keep up on Ben's LIVE appearances by following bengreenfieldfitness.com/calendar!
Resources mentioned in this episode:
- Wild Health Fellowship (use code BEN20 to save 20%)
- Awake and Aware
- Wild Health’s Athletic Optimization
- Wild Health Genomes
- Wild Health Podcast
- Everything You Need To Know For Antivirus & Immune System Enhancement: A Special One-Two Podcast Episode With Dr. Matt Cook, Dr. Matt Dawson, & Dr. Michael Mallin.
- How To Use Precision Medicine To Enhance Athletic Performance, Defy Aging, Balance Hormones, Fix The Heart & Much More.
- Why Your DNA Is Worthless (& What You Need To Focus On Instead)
- CBD & Cannabis Special Episode: How CBD Affects Hormones, Fat Loss, Athletic Performance, Sleep, Recovery & Much More
– Other Resources:
- DNA Fit
- Genetic Genie
- The DNA Company
- Ancient Nutrition Collagen Protein
- Kion Coffee
- Rob Locascio
- Ben Greenfield Life Coaching
Elements of Vitality Event: Join me in Sarasota, Florida, with Dr. John Lieurance on Friday, Dec 2nd from 8:00 am-5:00 pmfor a rare experience to explore the elements of Earth, Fire, Air, and Water with unique treatments, technologies, modalities, and biohacks to represent the healing powers of each element individually. Claim your spot today at bengreenfieldlife.com/elements-event.
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