Ben Greenfield [00:00:00]: My name is Ben Greenfield, and on this episode of the Boundless Life podcast.

Tim Gray [00:00:04]: When I went carnivore and I added in Creatine at 20 grams and I was having hydrogen water throughout the day, literally the best I've ever felt in my entire life. I literally felt like a hot knife going through warm butter.

Ben Greenfield [00:00:18]: Wait, it was carnivore, hydrogen, what else?

Tim Gray [00:00:21]: And Creatine. The three I felt alive.

Ben Greenfield [00:00:25]: Welcome to the Boundless Life with me, your host, Ben Greenfield. I'm a personal trainer, exercise physiologist and nutritionist. And I'm passionate about helping you discover unparalleled levels of health, fitness, longevity and beyond.

Ben Greenfield [00:00:46]: Tim Gray, multi time, at least annual, maybe even biannual, if that's the actual term, that means twice a year. Podcast guest. Now, Tim, usually when I introduce you, I introduce you as the biohacker, but now I'm seeing that you're beginning to be known as the health community guy. Did you just decide you wanted more friends or.

Tim Gray [00:01:10]: Yeah, I'm short of friends these days. I think what I've seen is that so many things have changed in the biohacking space and I think one thing that really makes it stand out now is that everyone that goes to these events don't necessarily remember the speakers too much or the supplement they've tried, but they always go, that's where I met, blah, blah, blah. And we were, you know, so, so it always, you always remember the friends you make or the people you meet, not necessarily the technologies and stuff.

Ben Greenfield [00:01:42]: Unless, unless. Unless you like met them in the ice bath. That happens sometimes. Or curled up together spooning in a hyperbaric chamber.

Tim Gray [00:01:51]: Exactly, exactly. And I just like, it's just like, I think, you know, these events are kind of excuses to get to back together and hang out with all friends. And I think reuniting the tribe in Austin after Paleo effects demise and us bringing it back in Austin really made me realize that, holy crap. Now I've brought, you know, nearly 4,000 people together in London each year and two and a half thousand people in Austin, it's kind of like I built quite a health community here. And it's kind of the theme for the year. And I think with what you guys are doing with Caleb and Life Network is the community, online community and bringing everyone together as well. So I feel like, like it's tribe leaders all aligning and bringing everyone together. So I was just like, actually, I think this is kind of my niche in the biohacking space these days.

Ben Greenfield [00:02:33]: Yeah, yeah. For people who are new to the game. Tim runs the Health Optimization Summit originally just out of London. We just did one or he just did one in Austin. I go to most of them or all of them because they're some of the most fantastic health events of the year. So first off, you're listening. Show notes how you can get into the event. VIP tickets, all that go to BenGreenfieldLife.com/ Tim 2025. Tim, the event in Austin obviously had a lot in there regarding, like, community.

Ben Greenfield [00:03:08]: I talked about the science of loneliness. You're right. That was kind of like the idea of bringing the tribe back together. But was there anything else that kind of stood out as far as the Austin event?

Tim Gray [00:03:20]: Just that everyone really wanted to get back together again, and it was just this massive, great, you know, health hole with so many micro pockets. That was just great to come back together. That was really the takeaway from it. The other. The other thing was that was a big learning for me actually was like becoming a, say, a tribe leader. I cringe a little bit saying that, but I guess I kind of am these days.

Ben Greenfield [00:03:45]: Well, when you. When you say that, you should have, like, a loincloth and, like, a feather. Stick it out of your hair.

Tim Gray [00:03:50]: Yeah.

Ben Greenfield [00:03:52]: Not. Not the stereotype, but no, I mean, it.

Tim Gray [00:03:57]: It really is. I think, who would you sit around a campfire with, you know, in the, you know, olden days, who would. Who would be around your fire? And I think it was a great analogy for a fireside chat. Who would be around your fire in your tribe? And I think when you have a tribe and you have connection to, you know, we're doing 300. About 300 million views a year at the moment on social medias, which is pretty. Pretty insane stuff. And it's like you have a responsibility as a tribe leader to communicate the best you can and act like a king. You know, how would a king behave? And it.

Tim Gray [00:04:28]: I think there's a lot of drama that goes with an event and lots of opposing forces. And I think, how do you behave like an. The absolute awesome human and become a, you know, a king opposed to an evil ruler? And I think it's a big learning for me. It's a really big learning for me.

Ben Greenfield [00:04:44]: Yeah. As long as it's not like a Monty Python king. I mean, you could probably do the accent. Both. I'm getting better.

Tim Gray [00:04:51]: I'm getting better, sir.

Ben Greenfield [00:04:53]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. So King Tim, kind of the funnest part about you and me getting a chance to chat a few times on this podcast is it's kind of like the random show of what crazy gadgets and new biohacks as Tim discovered and found. So you probably anticipated this question, but sometimes we rabbit hole quite a bit. But fill me in on, on some of the sexy new stuff you've been testing in anticipation of the London summit. Just trying out for yourself.

Tim Gray [00:05:23]: Oh, man, there's just so many things going on at the moment. I think the, the ultimate thing between all of the connecting dots of biohacks is pretty much nature links all of them back together again. And we're using a lot of these things to reverse the damage of technology using technologies. And it always seems to be something that fits into that. I mean, I think, you know, I'm playing with a few new compounds. I'm not sure. Have you played with IP6 yet? IP6 now, yeah, in Inositol Hexo phosphate.

Ben Greenfield [00:05:56]: Okay.

Tim Gray [00:05:57]: Have you not heard of this?

Ben Greenfield [00:05:58]: I mean, I've heard of Inositol for sleep.

Tim Gray [00:06:03]: So I was put on it about three weeks ago by. I don't know if you know him, actually. Do you know Justin Maguire who's Autonomic Coaching? It looks like Incredible Hulk. No, not green.

Ben Greenfield [00:06:14]: No.

Tim Gray [00:06:14]: So he's a, he's a very good friend of Dr. Dom Nischwitz and myself and one of our speakers.

Ben Greenfield [00:06:19]: Oh, wait, was he, I think I did meet him. Was he in Austin? And he's like a super yoked, like nerded out dude who's also really smart. You told me in the back room because the last time we were on the show, you shared with me this super powerful antihistamine called Ketotifen that actually is pretty good for sleep. Since our podcast, I use it about once a week. But my issue, and I brought it up, I think Justin was standing there, is that it makes you groggy the next day. And by the way, the reason I use it once a week is it's so effective, I stay in bed too long. So I can only use it if I don't have anything going on the next morning. But he said, take Saw Palmetto extract.

Ben Greenfield [00:06:59]: Apparently it binds to a similar receptor or somehow kind of like viewing light after you use a whole bunch of Melatonin, it somehow kicks it off the receptor or something like that. And I tried it. It actually works. Like you wake up, you take the saw palmetto and it kind of reduces a lot of the grogginess.

Tim Gray [00:07:15]: Yeah. So that's Justin. Justin Maguire. I mean, I work with him personally on some health things, but he recently put me on IP6 and I was like, what is, what is this stuff? And I found it to be really interesting to support your immune system and whatnot. And essentially it creates iron and inhibits abnormal cell growth. So what that does is it supports your immune system somewhat. And it's a form of Inositol, which is obviously a sugar molecule with 6 phosphate group attached. And what it does, it acts as an antioxidant and a metal chelator.

Tim Gray [00:07:50]: And you obviously don't want to do that too much depending on your iron status. But I found it to be really, really quite interesting.

Ben Greenfield [00:07:58]: So this would be like if you, if you, let's say you're like a man, because men have more of the hemochromatosis issue, the high iron. This is something you could use to control that instead of say, giving blood.

Tim Gray [00:08:09]: Exactly. I mean, I do think giving blood is one of the best, a great biohack as well, to be fair, let's be honest. But it is kind of offloading a load of toxins to other people.

Ben Greenfield [00:08:20]: Yeah, potentially, yeah. I mean, obviously I think there's some screening and filtration that takes place, but you're right. So the iron thing, were you doing that because you have high iron?

Tim Gray [00:08:31]: No, I was doing it for immune support because I've been fighting a sinus thing after a bone lateral sinus lift about a year ago now and I keep on getting sinus issues here, but that's supporting that for that. And also my liver enzymes are a little bit high because I've been on a heavy anti parasite protocol and so just wanted to support my immune system while coming off of those.

Ben Greenfield [00:08:56]: Now the IP6, if that's a metal chelator, I think he said, do you have to have any concerns about it just causing metal to wind up elsewhere in the body, like in your brain or your neural tissue, or does it just kind of pass out in the stool or something?

Tim Gray [00:09:11]: Exactly, yeah. It draws it out through the stools. It's quite. It's almost like rice. It feels like rice powder. In fact, I think it actually comes. Comes from rice in some form. I'm just gonna check on this.

Ben Greenfield [00:09:22]: It feels like, like when you poop it out, it feels like rice powder?

Tim Gray [00:09:25]: No, no, I mean it feels quite a heavy powder, like when you go, oh, I see with your drink. Okay, yeah. So it comes from whole grains like oats and corn and seeds and legumes and nuts and things like that. But yeah, it acts as a phosphate storage molecule. And I found that it's really interesting because my sinuses have got significantly better since being on it for about three weeks now. And I've just come off it this morning and yesterday I thought I was coming down with, you know when you're the back of your throat starts feeling a bit funny and you're like, oh, I'm gonna come down with something. Yeah, I woke up and it was completely gone. It's like bloody fantastic.

Tim Gray [00:09:58]: So I think that combined with my Colostrum powder every day seems to help my immune system so much. You know, people around me have had colds and coughs and everything, and I don't seem to get anything when I'm on these two.

Ben Greenfield [00:10:11]: So this, this IP6, is that like an over the counter or pharmaceutical?

Tim Gray [00:10:15]: Yeah, over the counter, I believe. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it seems to be well researched and well used as well. Not traditionally medical, but yeah, I found it to be awesome for immune. So anyone that's suffering, getting too many colds or whatnot, or has high iron, but if you have low iron, I wouldn't recommend it.

Ben Greenfield [00:10:32]: Yeah, so you think like Amazon or Iherb or something like that would have it?

Tim Gray [00:10:35]: Iherb, I think got it. Yeah. I mean, Justin actually shipped me some from South Africa in this case. But yeah, it comes in like a nice little jam jar, is great.

Ben Greenfield [00:10:45]: So legit South African IP6. You heard it here first, folks. Yeah, what. What else is cool?

Tim Gray [00:10:51]: So something I've been looking into recently, which is super good, is exosome eye drops, potentially for glaucoma, not for myself, for a friend of mine. So I've got a very good stem cell friend of mine from Stockholm and I'm going to have some stem cells done with him. And a friend of mine, I just happened to be at the time, he said, I got glaucoma. Can I get stem cells for my glaucoma? So I asked the stem cell guy and he was like, well, actually, no, I'm not really too comfortable about injecting anywhere near eyes. I think I'll give that one a mix.

Ben Greenfield [00:11:25]: Did you hear about the story in the US I think it was the Stem Cell Institute in Florida. Three people wound up blind from stem cell treatments in their eyes. This was like three years ago, maybe more.

Tim Gray [00:11:35]: Oh, okay. Yeah, I didn't know about that.

Ben Greenfield [00:11:37]: So maybe that's why he was a little gunshot.

Tim Gray [00:11:39]: So they said no. But exosome eye drops are fantastic for this because it helps obviously reduce inflammation and helps repairing various other things as well to go with that, like astaxanthin. But yeah, so Exosome eye drops, I think, is quite an emerging biohack for eye health.

Ben Greenfield [00:11:56]: So where do you get those flown.

Tim Gray [00:11:59]: Over from Florida on dry ice, apparently.

Ben Greenfield [00:12:03]: And are they, like, something you can just, like, go to a website and order or you need a thumbnail?

Tim Gray [00:12:08]: Yeah, I think it needs to come via a proper doctor. Yeah.

Ben Greenfield [00:12:12]: I wonder if they're coming from the company JuveXO out of Florida. There's a company called JuveXO. I interviewed them on my podcast a few months ago out of Miami. I forget the guy's name, but apparently they're very purified, clean exosomes derived from umbilical cord tissue. And when I talk with them, we were talking about the injectable version or an IV version or intranasal, but maybe, maybe they do the eye drops too.

Tim Gray [00:12:37]: Yeah, I've got some news, I'll tell you offline afterwards that maybe we can share in a year's time on the next podcast about this.

Ben Greenfield [00:12:43]: All right, so. So when you put them in, do you notice anything as far as vision or clarity or haven't.

Tim Gray [00:12:49]: I haven't used them yet, but from the. Okay, what, what I've looked up and read into for, obviously for my friend is actually quite interesting how well it works for glaucoma. But obviously, as you know, glaucoma comes from sugar. Well, often comes from sugar metabolism and too high sugar, diet and genetic component as well as a methylation component as well. So I think, you know, Exosomes is a good, you know, an amazing plaster, but not necessarily the fix long term, but it does seem to have some good results. But again, anecdotally.

Ben Greenfield [00:13:18]: Yeah, I like how you say plaster. We say band aid, you say plaster. It's an amazing plaster. What else. What else has been turning your head?

Tim Gray [00:13:27]: Well, you know, Qualia. This is a good one. You know, Qualia, the new tropic that's been around forever and a day seems to be the longest.

Ben Greenfield [00:13:35]: Qualia Mind.

Tim Gray [00:13:37]: Yeah, I love this stuff. I always had, even before I was known as Tim Biohacker or the Community Guy or whatever, whatever. Whatever label there is this, this year. But I have always used Qualia and really like it. But obviously it's got choline in it. And what I've really enjoyed doing is stacking it with piracetam, aniracetam and piracetam, because I don't know, have you played around with much with piracetam or aniracetam or any of these smart drugs?

Ben Greenfield [00:14:04]: A little bit. The only smart drug I kind of like have that I occasionally use is Modafinil. Like if I'm super sleep deprived, usually like international travel, I take that. And then I think Nootopia has a Racetam in one of their products. I believe I might be misspeaking, but it's not like I don't have a bunch just like laying around. Describe Racetams to people.

Tim Gray [00:14:30]: So Racetam basically opens up the receptors for choline or acetylcholine in the brain, whereas pretty much every other smart drug there is plays on acetylcholine levels in the brain. Whereas piracetam actually opens up those receptors so that you actually use more acetylcholine so you have better brain power. So when you stack something like Qualia Mind, which has Choline in it as well as various other things, and you use Piracetam at the same time, you're giving your body more levels and more ability to use those. So, yeah, I find it to be almost euphoric as well when I stack the two together, which I find super interesting. I usually like listening to music or whatever and I'm in focus mode and I feel like I just want to. I just feel like I've. I'm coming up on something. Something I shouldn't be.

Ben Greenfield [00:15:16]: Yeah, it's kind of. That's kind of the choline things like the concept of the brain omelet. You know, eggs, a little bit of smoked salmon and some like walnut pesto. You know, it's two very dense sources of choline. I've. I never put the brain omelet in any of my cookbooks, but you know, those are dietary sources of choline and supplemental sources tend to be a little bit higher. But either way, that's an interesting stack to combine Racetam with the Choline. And so you would just take something like quality of Mind and then a piracetam or aniracetam along with that and.

Tim Gray [00:15:47]: You can buy those over the counter or online or whatnot. But it's actually interesting because you mentioned Modafinil. I've never really liked Modafinil. I always found it to be a bit jittery and weird for me. And some people say that they feel like more like themselves when they're taking Modafinil. But I feel, I feel jittery and like I've had some.

Ben Greenfield [00:16:05]: I feel the same way, almost robotic, like very analytical, like wide awake, especially sleep deprived. But yeah, not quite myself.

Tim Gray [00:16:14]: Yeah, yeah, I, I don't enjoy it and I really enjoy Paracetam. It's. It's really like I really don't enjoy Modafinil at all, but Paracetam is a fantastic one when stacked with Qualia. Anyway, I mean, I think, you know, I've just put them head to head here just to see how they sit and it's like, you know, Paracetam is a cognitive enhancer versus Modafinil is alertness, focus and anti fatigue, which I can't sleep on the stuff Even, you know, 12 hours later, it's me.

Ben Greenfield [00:16:43]: Yeah, usually after you dose that you can't sleep well at night and you usually have early morning awakenings. So yeah, I mean it's useful if you got to get through a really tough period of sleep deprivation. But I think there's some biological implications to long term use especially. And I know some people have been taking acid for years, just like every day for years and years and I mean, if you can do it, great, more power to you. But I, I don't think I could.

Tim Gray [00:17:07]: Get by on that. No, I don't think so either. I mean, I really don't enjoy it. But I think if you, if you tried Paracetam, anyone that's on Modafinil and want to try Paracetam and stack it with Qualia Mind, I think you're going to be extremely happy with the, with the new stack because it makes you a little bit happier, I find. So the mechanism increases acetylcholine use and enhances brain signaling whereas Modafinil boosts dopamine, histamine and improves wakefulness.

Ben Greenfield [00:17:35]: And where do people get racetams?

Tim Gray [00:17:39]: Good old Google. Good old Google. There's quite a few different. There's oxyracetam, piracetam, aniracetam, like a whole load of different ones you can have that have different strengths. So you might want 5mg of oxyracetam but 100mg of piracetam.

Ben Greenfield [00:17:58]: Which, which one do you think works best if you stack it with Qualia Mind?

Tim Gray [00:18:02]: I think piracetam specifically is my favorite.

Ben Greenfield [00:18:05]: So we got a piracetam Qualia Mind combo. What about technologies? Because you know, whenever you do these expos, this is what I like about the Health Optimization Summit is I describe it as the Consumer Electronics show of biohacking, where there's just a huge expo floor full of all these things you can try and you've usually got some things there that I haven't seen before that folks haven't come across before or products that have freshly launched and don't have a lot of market penetration yet. Is there anything like that coming up in for the London summit or something that was at the Austin summit. That's kind of stuck with you is being really helpful or at least really intriguing.

Tim Gray [00:18:43]: Yes. The latest bit of tech that I. I've been playing around with, actually, and I saw it at Bryan Johnson's event in Miami first, actually, and it's Nurosym, which you clip onto your. Your ear. Would you call it this bit here?

Ben Greenfield [00:18:58]: I don't know. I just call it the inside of the ear. The other little. But the little hard, bumpy thing.

Tim Gray [00:19:03]: Yeah, so you clip it onto there and then you set the strength of it and it sets a shock just slightly and you can turn the. Turn the volume up of it to. Until it becomes almost uncomfortable.

Ben Greenfield [00:19:15]: Oh, wait, I think. I think I have one of these. And it just goes on one ear.

Tim Gray [00:19:20]: Yes, that's right.

Ben Greenfield [00:19:20]: I have one of these. It arrived at. I used it like twice and I don't know why I didn't use it more. But is it like a ear stimulation of the vagus nerve? Is that what it's.

Tim Gray [00:19:30]: Yeah, exactly. For the left branch of the vagus nerve. Apparently it's unsafe to use the right hand side, supposedly, but I'm not quite sure how correct that is. But yeah. So I've been using it now for about six weeks and I found it to be really. I find working with it on to be really great. And I use it. I'm actually using it for 30 minutes twice a day right now.

Tim Gray [00:19:52]: I found that my digestion is slightly better from it. I find that when I'm working out, I seem to have more flexibility, being able to move my spine better. And I've always had postural issues and tight muscles, so I feel like it's really, really working very well. So they are Nurosym, they're. They're at the summit, which is going.

Ben Greenfield [00:20:11]: To be great, by the way. With Nurosym, I always thought about using it for relaxation. So the couple of times I use it, I was using it with headphones and maybe that's why it didn't stick because it made the left headphone sound weird. But I never thought about just sticking it on. Like I could be wearing it right now while I'm talking to you or during a workout that's. I mean, I'll have to drag it back out and mess around with it a little bit.

Tim Gray [00:20:34]: Yeah, I really like it. I really like it just on its own, you know, walking around the house, doing housework, whatever, just leave it on for 30 minutes, twice a day. So I think, you know, I think our vagus nerve is so important for so many reasons and most of us aren't stimulating it enough. We're not doing breath work properly, we're not necessarily stretching in the gym properly, you know, living sedentary lives. And I think giving it a little shock for 30 minutes twice a day actually works really well. I found that my sleep is slightly better on the days that I use it. Minimally, but a little bit better. And my cognitive performance seems to be better as well.

Tim Gray [00:21:11]: So I'm not quite sure what it's doing exactly on a full physiological level. But this is a device I really like and they haven't paid me to say this by the way. I just really like the device.

Ben Greenfield [00:21:22]: Yeah. Oh, they're going to be at the summit in London if you want to try it. Okay, cool. What about that thing that was in Austin and I first saw it at the summit in London? It's like the big bed. It's a Human Regenerator or re.

Tim Gray [00:21:37]: Human Regenerator?

Ben Greenfield [00:21:38]: Yeah, yeah, the Human Regenerator. Is that thing still kind of around? Are they going to be at the summit or. Because I've only seen, I've only ever seen it at your events and everybody who tries it really likes it. But how do you describe it to people?

Tim Gray [00:21:53]: It's a med bed. So first thing is med bed is a new label, I guess, and it's based on cold atmospheric plasma which is generally used in, you know, focal areas of healing on the body. And what the bed does is it's taken it from a focal treatment, you know, in clinics to a full bed size. What it is, I think it's a 30,000 volt static electricity field that goes over you and then you have grounding plates on your hands and on your feet. And what this does is it's almost like turbo grounding.

Ben Greenfield [00:22:28]: That's what they should have called it, the Turbo Grounder 3XZ.

Tim Gray [00:22:35]: I mean it, the thing is it, it bloody works. Like I, I got this email probably 20, 22 and you know, as I'm sure you do as well, get loads of emails and everyone's saying that they've got a life changing device that just please, and I really need you to.

Ben Greenfield [00:22:52]: Use it, break Olympic records and yada, yada, yada. Yeah.

Tim Gray [00:22:55]: And everyone's got this life saving device and life saving supplement and it's, it gets a bit overwhelming but for some reason I opened up this email and I read it and I was just like actually cold atmospheric plasma. I'm going to look into this. So I dug into cold atmospheric plasma quite a bit more actually. Yeah, this is really scientifically backed and no one has done it on a full body scale for some reason. But these German engineers had. So they flew me out to Germany, put me up in a hotel, got me to test out the device and they were very sciency German tech guys. And I found it to be. I found.

Tim Gray [00:23:31]: I felt so in parasympathetic very quickly, scarily quickly. It's almost like my body was just in a symbiotic super calm state in a place where, you know, rest and digest on steroids basically. Yeah, there's something in this. And I was yawning like crazy, which I only ever get just at the end of a hyperbaric session when your body is actually used to more oxygen for a while and then you go into almost as a starved state of oxygen.

Ben Greenfield [00:24:03]: Right, like re, like rebound hypoxia kind of.

Tim Gray [00:24:07]: Exactly. And then I find that I start yawning at that point because my body's going, oh, I really like that oxygen. I need more of this stuff. But I had that on the Human Regenerator and there's nothing to do with oxygen on there. So I was like, I knew there was something in it, so I used it a few times. And then I spoke to someone that said, oh yeah, I had had immune issues for quite a long time. She said, and I used to get warts, warts on my hand quite badly and I couldn't ever get them cured. But after a week of using the, the Human Regenerator, the warts went away.

Tim Gray [00:24:36]: So you know, it's obviously giving the body something it needs and obviously free, free of electrons. If you're, if you're deficient in electrons. We know what it does to cortisol levels. They either go too high, go too low, the body doesn't heal properly, you know, then the whole, the blood, the blood doesn't froze free freely. So having hypergrounding in this context, the Human Regenerator is fantastic. And I actually labeled it 2023 biohack of the year for me, just because I found it to be so effective. And since then, since then they did the US show and they sold devices. I think they're 150 or 200k.

Tim Gray [00:25:12]: They sold devices at the show off the floor, which is unusual for you know, B2C event like that.

Ben Greenfield [00:25:20]: What, what about fitness? Like whether it's devices or protocols or anything new in the whole kind of like fitness department because when you go to the expo, you got the ARX and the Carol bike and some of these things that have been staples in the biohacking community or the time efficient exercise space for years. Anything new in the, in the fitness department?

Tim Gray [00:25:38]: There's a couple of fitness devices coming on board. Can't share them yet because they haven't signed up.

Ben Greenfield [00:25:44]: Sign up people, come on, what are you waiting for?

Tim Gray [00:25:46]: We've got, we've got like literally three booths left. So I'm hoping they do sign up. But it's interesting because the whole fitness space is, is a really interesting space right now because gyms aren't evolving and yet biohacking labs are and I, I'm seeing a big shift in this whole fitness, you know, moving from aesthetics of muscle bros to, you know, optimizers, health optimizers optimizing from the inside out. I mean just look at our friend Chris Gethin for instance, you know, hardcore bodybuilder turned biohacker. And I think this is what's really happening to the gym space and the gym industry in general. So yeah, we've got a few technologies from this area coming to the show. I won't disclose them just yet, but I think you're going to have some fun on the playground there.

Ben Greenfield [00:26:32]: Yeah, I think kind of for better and worse with the whole shift in the fitness space towards cold baths, PEMF, recovery boots, sauna time efficient exercise. I think you also run the risk of people forgetting that at the end of the day you do have to just lift heavy shit and it kind of sucks. And you do need like some iron and sometimes an unpredictable kettlebell or sandbag instead of a machine. Every week when I work out, I'm always thinking, okay, am I slipping into that category of just like strapping myself into some fancy machine or do I, you know, can I still carry a sandbag up the driveway? You know.

Tim Gray [00:27:12]: Yeah, it's a very valid point. I think this is one of the things a certain biohacker gets slammed for because you know, some of them don't want to work out but they want.

Ben Greenfield [00:27:20]: The results from six pack abs and 15 minutes a week, whatever.

Tim Gray [00:27:24]: I mean that's one of the things that actually I like the Carol bike very much. I mean minimum effective dose exercise is kind of smart, you know, but you're missing the psychology aspect of working out. Lifting.

Ben Greenfield [00:27:35]: I like it, but, but then at the same like I went on a two and a half hour hike two mornings ago and there is just something different, mentally, physically, the rigorous nature of it, the necessity of the shift towards fat burning. If you're not doing something like that, fed. And I think there's benefits of that and just the time spent on your feet. When I used to race Ironman, I was the minimalist training guy. But even for me and all my athletes, we always had at least one session per week where we were going past just the quickest, 30, 40 minute hit sessions and getting two hours on the feet out on the running trail, or four hours in the bike saddle just to get the butt used to what that feels like. And I realize that's racing specific, but I do think there's something about just some long endurance session outdoors or again, like lifting a kettlebell or a sandbag that a stationary bicycle or an exercise machine is difficult. It's difficult to simulate with.

Tim Gray [00:28:40]: I love that you said this. Actually that's really funny because I was in Greece Corfu last weekend. I went for a holiday, but I know the owner of the hotel and we're going to do a retreat, health optimization, VIP retreat for about 100 people. Oh, cool. Next April. And it's funny because the, my friend who owns the hotel said, let's go for a hike tomorrow morning. And you know, it was early and I was like, it's going to get hot. And I started coming up with all these excuses in my head and I was like, yeah, let's do it.

Tim Gray [00:29:13]: So I just, I committed and did it. And we did this hike all the way up top, you know, behind. And it's like all through these paths and everything. And I remember going up these, this rock where someone probably 300 years ago chiseled out the side of the rocks of their steps up in the side of it and I'm like, my calves are killing. This is absolutely insane. If I was in the gym now, I would have stopped 10 minutes ago. But I'm still going through necessity because I have to get to this peak up there. There's a real goal and I can't go back because I look weak and I want to get to the top and see the view.

Tim Gray [00:29:44]: And it's like, actually this is going to kill tomorrow. Fantastic. And it's like the necessity of doing the random stuff and climbing up and moving around. So it's funny you've touched on that.

Ben Greenfield [00:29:55]: Yeah. If you were on the stairmill during that time in the gym, you probably would have moved on to the percussion gun or stability ball. But yeah, when you're, when it's out there in the wilderness, you just got to keep going. Yeah, I'm interested in the Greek. I love grape leaves and feta cheese and ouzo liqueur, so keep me posted on that. The Greece is a country I haven't been to. So speaking of grape leaves, what about the whole food and beverage space? Because there's always some new bar or protein powder or camel yak goat milk camara combo or whatever. What about that space? Is there anything new? Whether new vendors or new things you've.

Tim Gray [00:30:33]: Come across, there's a few bits and pieces on the floor in terms of food and in fact this is the last area of the hall that we curate. The reason being is that we fill up the hall and then at the end we open up some startup or smaller booths for brands that are trying to break through but can't afford to do an event like ours, to be honest. And that's how I support startups and smaller brands and generally the food, the food brands generally are newer, smaller startups that they can't afford these things. So we put them on the map last.

Ben Greenfield [00:31:05]: Right. It's like the biohacking equivalent of a lemonade stand.

Tim Gray [00:31:09]: Yeah, basically. And I like to support these guys because unfortunately we are in London and we are in a very prestige venue with lots of expensive things going on and very, very high risk financially and very low reward financially, but an amazing fun playground and it's an event I always wanted for myself, so it's great. But yeah, to support some of these smaller brands that come in last minute is really important. So there are some, I can't disclose them just yet. There is one that I do support that I love very much and it's a brand called Fudi. F U D I they were there last year and they are healthy oils or ethical healthy oils. So really good olive oils, a spray, one that hasn't got any of the nasty additives in it to make it thin and stuff and healthy fats and things like that. So I'm seeing a trend, actually a trend of a few different brands of healthy olive oils and things like that. Now coming out from, you know, Europe.

Ben Greenfield [00:32:09]: Do you think that's like riding on the back of the Bryan Johnson olive oil thing or something like the seed oil craze or just a combination of factors?

Tim Gray [00:32:17]: A combination of everything. I mean, if you look at. That's one of the things about MAHA, again, politics to one side, because I don't want to get into that. But MAHA really is driving innovation because so many companies are now going, okay, we need a seed oil free version of this because we want to Be first to market with this new thing or it's driving so many areas of innovation and health now from these chemicals. And I think, you know, big industries are going, okay, we're going to have to change our compliance. Do we want to be ahead of this? Are we going to go and acquire some of these brands now and bring them in? And so it's really interesting to see how many products are coming out because I've heard this so many times from smaller brands now. They're going well, actually, we were the first in the market with this. We're scaling like crazy and we know that we're going to get acquired in a couple of years time because all the big industries are now looking at this stuff that we've been talking about for 10 years.

Tim Gray [00:33:06]: So there are a few of those brands there. In fact, one of them, when we were in Austin, you came out, we went out for dinner and I took my mentee Gaetan, the founder of Mythos, with us.

Ben Greenfield [00:33:19]: He has like the face tallow stuff.

Tim Gray [00:33:22]: Yeah, exactly.

Ben Greenfield [00:33:23]: What's it called again?

Tim Gray [00:33:24]: Yeah, Mythos Men and Mythos Women. Yeah. So it's copper peptides. So it repairs the collagen matrix and niacinamide to help increase blood flow to get the nutrients in and then micro filtered tallow for the nutrients and people. It just works. The amount of people that come up to me in the street and say, tim, I love your face cream. I was like, I'm an investor in it because I just love supporting the 25 year old founder and the product just works. But that's a classic example of how someone, in fact, like I told you when we went for dinner, he spent 10 hours a day working in a steel factory two years ago, listening to Ben Greenfield podcasts, hearing about these crazy things like tallow and then created this product which was now scaling like absolutely nuts.

Tim Gray [00:34:08]: Like, like he's gone from, you know, being an employee to having a very successful company in no time just because the, the market really needs products like this.

Ben Greenfield [00:34:18]: Yeah. And inspirational, by the way, that somebody can go from steel factory to pursuing their dream and creating a health product.

Tim Gray [00:34:24]: After listening to the Ben Greenfield podcast for 10 hours a day. I'm not joking. Seriously, let's say. I don't think you knew.

Ben Greenfield [00:34:30]: I should probably just be getting more royalty checks for more people after inspiring them to start weird businesses.

Tim Gray [00:34:36]: It's funny because, like, I didn't, I didn't know the full, the full story of everything before, but when he sat down and across the table from you and you didn't. I don't think you knew this, but.

Ben Greenfield [00:34:45]: He was just sitting there like, oh, that's funny.

Tim Gray [00:34:49]: I'm sitting across the table from Ben Greenfield, who I learned from. It's like quite hilarious.

Ben Greenfield [00:34:54]: And I remember he doesn't get going to. I guess it's called. I learned this new word a few months ago, pink labeling, where you take a product that you're producing and produce a female specific version that was called like pink labeling. Right?

Tim Gray [00:35:08]: Yeah. I mean, there's like green washing as well, which is the one. Pink washing.

Ben Greenfield [00:35:11]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tim Gray [00:35:13]: I mean, in fact, my ex partner kept on nicking my Mythos skin cream so much because it worked better than her stuff that we decided we'd bring out a female one, add another peptide in it for female skin, and. And then it doubled the company overnight. Yeah. And it just works. It just really works. So. Yeah.

Ben Greenfield [00:35:32]: What, what do you, what do you think about that, that surge? Because, like, JJ Virgin has JJ, I love you. I'm not totally in love with the name yet, but she has like SHEatine, which is like a female version of Creatine. I guess I just think it sounds a little too close to like shit to me at least. But I could be wrong. Sorry, JJ, I know that you, JJ, by the way, is responsible for naming my book Boundless. So I know she knows how to name stuff, but so she's got. She attained and then your. Your buddy's doing like the female version of Mythos.

Ben Greenfield [00:36:03]: What do you think of this seeming surge towards female specific products?

Tim Gray [00:36:08]: I think it's bloody fantastic because back in 2019, when I started the summit, my at the time COO or event manager, Dasha, being female and had her. Her health issues for years, said, you know, female health is super important, but biohacking is very bro science, you know, bro, all the biohackers are male. There's no real female biohackers. So what that's done is it's now fueled so many more female biohackers to come out there. I mean, we obviously, we got role models like JJ and we've got people like Alisa Vitti and we've got Jolene Brighten and we've got all of these, you know, some Mindy Pelz as well. I mean, like, you know, and Mindy's gone mainstream. I mean, she's gone, you know, she's grown amazingly. And now we talk.

Tim Gray [00:36:52]: Now we've got the generation that's peri and postmenopausal and all of these things. So it's really great that the female space is growing. And as the female space is growing, so are like products and brands that fit that category. Obviously females are far more intuitive than us guys for the most part, and they know what they need naturally. And a lot of them, you know, sit with more natural products a lot of the time. But education is a key piece. And I think how many times have you heard in the last however many months, you know, women that have been on the pill and been on Accutane and had, you know, all sorts of hormone issues and liver stress and acne and, you know, it's, it's widespread and I think there's been. Female health has been.

Ben Greenfield [00:37:35]: So yeah, there's consequences to artificial cycle suppression, believe it or not, massively.

Tim Gray [00:37:41]: And I think because of pregnancy and fertile years and how studies work and how men are so stable through the hormones throughout the month and it's a better baseline for doing tests. Women have kind of been sidelined, unfortunately, but now it's swung back around the other way and there's a lot of innovation in the space for females. You know, SHEatine is perfect in. I think it's a funny name now you say it like that. But I think, you know, one thing I've learned in the last year or so is many good new brands that come out are just better at promoting and branding something so people understand the value of it. And you know, there's a Creatine brand I heard about last week a couple of weeks ago that doing 30 million a year in Creatine monohydrate. And what have they done? They've just branded it better.

Ben Greenfield [00:38:30]: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's a huge part of it. And also the female demographic, I don't know if you know Angelo. Have you met Angelo, my CEO and co founder?

Tim Gray [00:38:41]: I've spoken to him many times, but never met him.

Ben Greenfield [00:38:43]: Yeah, great, great guy. We should get him out to one of the summits sometime. But we were talking demographics the other day. Our top customer base by far at Kion is like the 50 to 55 year old female demographic who is super interested in health, wants to spend money on good supplements. And it's interesting because at least I would have thought looking at some of our products like aminos and Creatine and protein powder, that it would be like maybe a 30 to 45 year old male demographic. But older females are probably the top demographic in the world right now, interested in health, biohacking, fitness, pretty much anything related to body optimization.

Tim Gray [00:39:30]: Yeah, I mean, they're much more intuitive and now it's much more pro female. Yeah. I just want to jump back onto one of the technologies actually that people get to try at the summit because I've just remembered one. See my notes? Stupidly Monk ice baths.

Ben Greenfield [00:39:48]: Oh, yeah. People hear about a brand of ice pads though, and they're like, well, what could be different? They're all just cold water.

Tim Gray [00:39:56]: Yeah. I mean, this is a smart ice bath with I think it's ozone filtering and it looks fantastic. I mean, it's proper show home stuff, but with a really good price.

Ben Greenfield [00:40:06]: I saw it last year. It's pretty.

Tim Gray [00:40:08]: Yeah, it's very pretty. They've launched recently. They look fantastic. And yeah, I'm really excited for them to be back at the summit. I mean, ice baths really are mainstream now as well. I mean, everyone seems to have.

Ben Greenfield [00:40:23]: Yeah, I mean, it's June here. I'm in mine like three times a day. But you know what I started using? I finished building one in my garage. I got a generator from this company called Lumati. L U M A T I. It's a hydrogen bath. Meaning like you get a pre existing bathtub and I put this just out in the garage and then you connect it to a water inlet. The water flows in through the hydrogen unit, hydrogen hydrogenates the water and then that's what you bathe in. And you get massive amounts of transdermal hydrogen absorption in the bath.

Ben Greenfield [00:40:57]: I've done it. I mean, I just finished the bath last week. I've done three soaks now. And you just feel like pain free. Low levels of soreness. Pretty much anything you get from a high dose of hydrogen, but you just lay there in the bathroom.

Tim Gray [00:41:10]: It's funny because the first time I went around Gary Brecka's house, his we went around to record a podcast and he was busy and it's like, dude, just enjoy my, you know, my biohacking castle for a while. And he's like, I'm gonna put you in this bath. And he's like turned on the bath and hydrogen water comes out almost milky into the bath. And it's just like there I am in my y fronts pretty much in my, my, my, my Calvin's skinny little, skinny little dude next to Gary who's like a monster and like sitting in this little bath. The first time I've gone around Gary's house and I'm like, dude, you do some weird shit.

Ben Greenfield [00:41:43]: Yeah, you know what? I have been. I've been in a hydrogen inhalation unit next to my Roxiva lamp. So I lay there and do my Roxiva session with a hydrogen mask on and now I'm taking hydrogen baths. So I went from doing like the pills every day to now. I just decided to go and next thing it'll be like a hydrogen like enema or suppository or something. But I'm just going for as many delivery mechanisms as possible with hydrogen. And it works.

Tim Gray [00:42:09]: Yeah, yeah. I mean I, I've been, it's one of my, one of my hacks that I really appreciated this year very much was. And Gary got me onto this as well actually was the hydrogen echo water bottle. I didn't realize that Gary was like, dude, you've got to look into this hydrogen stuff. And this was like a year and a half ago now. Dude, you've got to, you got to check this stuff out. And I started using it religiously and I found that when I went carnivore and I added in Creatine at 20 grams and I was having hydrogen water throughout the day. Literally the best I've ever felt in my entire life.

Tim Gray [00:42:41]: I literally felt like a hot knife going through warm butter.

Ben Greenfield [00:42:46]: Wait, it was carnivore, hydrogen and what else?

Tim Gray [00:42:48]: And Creatine, the three.

Ben Greenfield [00:42:50]: Okay. Huh.

Tim Gray [00:42:52]: Felt alive. I mean, after I lost too much body fat, I needed to add in some carbs again. So I couldn't be fully carnivore for too long. Being an ectomorph, hard gainer, skinny dude.

Ben Greenfield [00:43:06]: So, so the event in London, you know, I encourage a lot of people to go and I realize many people listening in, they're like, man, I want to like buy an international plane ticket and go all the way over there for like a, you know, a health conference. But talk to me about what goes on. Like, how do you describe the London Summit to people?

Tim Gray [00:43:26]: 3,500 to 4,000 people. One massive, great naturally lit hall in the center of London with 35 to 40 now keynote speakers such as yourself, Gary Brecka, Peter Crone, Rangan Chatterjee, Barbara O'Neill, you know, the list goes on. Like all top tier speakers with eight talks on each stage. Three stages a day playground of 140 brands, you know, ranging from Red Light Therapy, Ice Bath, Monk, for instance, you know, Carol Bike, Katalyst EMS suit. You can try out the technologies.

Ben Greenfield [00:44:06]: It is kind of nice because you don't have to work out before you go because there's just like cold baths and workout equipment all over.

Tim Gray [00:44:13]: One thing I always think about whenever I see you at an event anywhere and we. You're always able to test stuff out. And how do you get past everyone that stops you just for one Ben. Just need 30 seconds. Just want to ask you something.

Ben Greenfield [00:44:25]: Oh, I have a super simple secret. I'm really good at being an asshole. I'll avoid eye contact. You know what I'm going to work out right now. You can follow me and talk to me while I'm doing a chest press on the ARX if you want.

Tim Gray [00:44:40]: Every wrap up video from every summit I've ever been to, there's you in an ice bath, there's you doing a carol, there's you having iv and I'm like, do you know what? I've only been able to walk across the hall for two minutes.

Ben Greenfield [00:44:50]: You know, I talk to a lot of speakers who go to these events and they do a great job networking and you know, in the green room with the other speakers and I, I can't help myself, dude. Like I am actually in this industry because I love it and I'm like a kid in a candy store. Even when I go to a conference with stuff I've even seen before, for me it's just like a playground, you know, all my friends are running around, I get to try craft. And I'm pretty bad at just like standing around and sitting still and talking to people. So, you know, I just go out there and mess around with and then that's, I don't know, I'm, I, I love it.

Tim Gray [00:45:22]: Even when you're in a talk, right? And I've seen you at quite a few talks these days. Even when you're in the talk, you're at the back stretching, like leaning up against the wall, pulling your legs out, doing all sorts of different things. It's like, it's, it's very active approach. But I'm in the space because I love it too. And that's why I created the Health Optimization Summit so I could enjoy the event and playground. It's almost like, you know, I felt like I built it for me, but I can't quite get to enjoy it fully because it's quite a stressful thing to run. But you know, everything that I try throughout the year and more, everything's vetted by me. Nothing makes it to the show without my approval.

Tim Gray [00:45:55]: It's, you know, all approved, no seed oils, no nasty additives. If there's a supplement that's got something like silicon dioxide in it, for instance, I say you can exhibit on the, on the agreement, you do remove it from your next version, you know, so that way people get to try these and get to know this stuff. So it's a really big playground for health. But the most important thing is the health community. Making friends. You know, I knew no one in this space when I started my meetup in 2017. No one. I had no friends in the health space at all.

Tim Gray [00:46:24]: Now I have friends in every country around the world who are incredibly heartfelt, amazing humans because they're all being humbled by either health problems or they want to make the world a better place. Some amazing friends. Like for instance, when I first I mentioned Gary again because I was so astounded by how much of an amazing mission led human he was. When I met him, he was like, dude, wherever you are, like, I'm with you. Like, let's, you know, mission led, nothing else.

Ben Greenfield [00:46:53]: That dude's got a really big heart.

Tim Gray [00:46:55]: And this space is full of these of guys that are just out to help make the world a little bit better than they found it. And that's what I take from going to these shows. It's like you make some incredible friends. Like JJ, for instance. I'd wanted to meet JJ for many years, and I saw her A4M in Vegas A couple of years ago. Walked past her, I just like, that's JJ, I gotta say. Next thing I know, we're working together, she's speaking at the events. I go to her events.

Tim Gray [00:47:18]: I got to know her husband Tim well, you know, and it's just fantastic. Everyone wants to make the world a little bit better. And I think you get to meet those tribe, you get opportunities to hang out with these people, you get to start a new business in this space, you get to make the world a little bit better. And so it's just working behind a desk for a cause that you don't even know or believe in. And I think that's what I take from the event. And that's why I like to be the health community guy, because I see podcasts happen, I see people hanging out, I see photos of people hanging out around the world that have met at the show. And it just, it's just so rewarding, you know, on a deep level of legacy and helping to make the world a little bit better. So that's why I recommend coming to the show.

Ben Greenfield [00:47:58]: There's obviously a lot of new faces in the industry in terms of like, experts and influencers. One guy that comes to mind who I haven't interviewed yet, but he's on my radar for sure. Super smart. Nick Norwitz. He's like an MD, PhD, public science educator on YouTube. That's a pretty good head on his shoulders. He's one guy I've kind of taken note of as somebody who seems credible, knowledgeable, putting out good content. Nick, it's Norwits or Norwitz, I think.

Ben Greenfield [00:48:26]: N O R W I T Z. Anybody you think of as like an up and comer to keep your eye on or someone whose content you would recommend that people follow. When it comes to maybe a new name or face people haven't seen before.

Tim Gray [00:48:39]: Dr. Karan Rajan. He's very big on Instagram, YouTube and his podcast. I think he's got like 20 million followers across the platform. Across the platforms. He's a UK doctor, NHS doctor, but he, you know, kind of picked holes in where it's got it wrong. So he's quite instrumental in helping to change the UK nhs, I think.

Ben Greenfield [00:49:02]: How, how do you, how do you spell his name?

Tim Gray [00:49:05]: Dr. K A R A N. Karan and then Rajan. R A J A N. And he's, he's quirky. He's a great, he's a great dude actually. He's like, we became friends quite quickly because he's just such a good dude. He talks about gut health a lot and fiber and how to optimize microbiome and things.

Tim Gray [00:49:25]: So yeah, Dr. Karan Rajan, he's a great, he's a great guy. You'll meet him at the show. He's speaking.

Ben Greenfield [00:49:30]: Oh, incredible. Of course he is.

Tim Gray [00:49:33]: And then you've got Barbara O'Neill, the Australian lady. I don't know if you're familiar with her or not, all the alternative healthy cures. So yes, we've got, we've got those guys coming. We've got Claudia Muehlenweg, who is the eye health doctor who looks at the eye health as an indicator that your car service light is on. So if your site starts to get worse, that's because there's some inflammation or something in the body that needs fixing. And how to figure it out one through psychology and through biohacking yourself. So that's someone that's up and coming for sure. I.

Tim Gray [00:50:10]: She did mention that she was on Dave's podcast a few years ago and it was one of the most popular podcasts of, of that year. And I found the same when I interviewed on my podcast. She's fantastic woman as well.

Ben Greenfield [00:50:21]: Do you think she. Or do you know of an app that would just like take a picture of your eyes and do some kind of a diagnosis based on that? You'd think something like that might exist.

Tim Gray [00:50:29]: Yeah, I don't know if one hey.

Ben Greenfield [00:50:32]: If you're listening and you know of one, leave a comment. BenGreenfieldLife.com/ Tim2025. I'm interested.

Tim Gray [00:50:40]: Who's the other one? I like that. James Swanwick. Oh, do you know James Swanwick?

Ben Greenfield [00:50:47]: Yeah. We just had an alcohol debate on my podcast.

Tim Gray [00:50:50]: Oh, did you, Is it out yet? Cause I haven't seen this. Yeah.

Ben Greenfield [00:50:57]: So I got some comments. People thought that I was being mean or questioning him too much, but he actually approached me and wanted it to be a debate. So it literally was me as the pro alcohol guy, him as the zero alcohol is good for you guy. And we had a pretty good matchup. Yeah, it's out. I'll link to it in the show notes if people haven't heard it yet. Yeah, you should take a listen. I'd be curious what you think and if I was, if I was too mean.

Tim Gray [00:51:21]: No, no, I, I, I'll have a listen to that. Because James, a good friend, actually, he was a guy that founded Swanwick Blue Blocking Glasses, which is the OG brand. And yeah, now alcohol free life is his thing and it's fantastic. It's doing really well for him, but he's very up and coming in the alcohol free world. And I think it's good. I mean, we're seeing the trend across the world with alcohol dropping, consumption dropping, and everyone doing sauna and.

Ben Greenfield [00:51:45]: Right, sauna and magic mushrooms. Yeah, also, also that, which, I mean, in all respect, like, I know that there's questionable aspects of legality and maybe youth use and stuff, but I do think that something like a small dose of psilocybin is technically far more risk free and can give you many of the socially lubricating benefits you might be looking for from alcohol.

Tim Gray [00:52:16]: Yeah, then I agree. I mean, obviously in a legal place with, with a proper person and in a safe space and, and don't eat.

Ben Greenfield [00:52:24]: The whole chocolate bar.

Tim Gray [00:52:28]: Yeah, yeah. So it's a, it's a really interesting lineup this year. I mean, I'm just looking at it now. We've got, yeah, Rangan Chatterjee, who is, I think the biggest health podcaster in Europe. Gary Brecka, Barbara O'Neill, some dude called Ben Greenfield, if you know him. Dr. Josh Axe, Vonda Wright, Dr. Karan Rajan, Alicia Vitti, Divinia Taylor, Dr.

Tim Gray [00:52:49]: Darshan Shah, legend Dr. Dom Nischwitz.

Ben Greenfield [00:52:52]: Man, it's a good, good lineup.

Tim Gray [00:52:55]: Oh, and Jay Campbell as well, who I'm really looking forward to hanging out with, is a good dude.

Ben Greenfield [00:52:59]: Yes, the yolked peptide guy. Can't have too many yoked dudes at a conference. And also, Tim always gives my listeners some pretty cool codes and discounts to get in. And there's also a VIP ticket where you get this super cool VIP lounge and good food and. Are you gonna have IVs there again, Tim?

Tim Gray [00:53:20]: Yep. Yep. IVs. The VIP lounge is. Is pretty amazing. I mean, it. It's a. It's an enhanced experience.

Tim Gray [00:53:28]: It's accessible to everyone with the general mission ticket. But the VIP experience is pretty good because you get to hang out in the VIP lounge and chat to speakers and try out a few extra cool things.

Ben Greenfield [00:53:37]: Yeah. If you can't find me, that's usually where I'm at, so. BenGreenfieldLife.com/ Hos25 is where you can register for that. And then I will also put all of my other interviews with Tim, my interview or my debate, I should say, with James, everything else that we mentioned. If you go to BenGreenfieldLife.com/ Tim 2025. Tim, I'll try the Piracetam Qualia combo and the Nurosym during work. And I'll let you know how I feel when I see you in September.

Tim Gray [00:54:11]: Yeah, nice one, dude. I want to leave with one note for those of you that are wondering whether you should come to the show or even if you want to create your own show, which I'm a big fan of. It's not what's in your fridge, it's who you're with. When you shop and when you eat, make sure you surround yourself with the best, because that's when your decisions become better and easier and you all hold each other accountable. And this is such a important point to remember. So come and meet those people, hang out with them.

Ben Greenfield [00:54:38]: And, yeah, then I was hoping you weren't going to go the direction of a serial killer joke and say something like, it's not what's in your fridge, it's who's in your freezer. Thank you for clarifying. And on that note, folks, thank you so much for listening. I really hope to see a lot of you in London in 2025. It's like September, what, 15, 16, something like that?

Tim Gray [00:55:03]: 12th. VIP in the evening. 13th and 14th for the event. Yeah.

Ben Greenfield [00:55:07]: All right, cool. We'll see you there, folks. All right, Tim. Thanks, dude.

Ben Greenfield [00:55:10]: To discover even more tips, tricks, hacks, and content to become the most complete, boundless version of you, visit BenGreenfieldLife.com.

Tim Gray [00:55:26]: In.

Ben Greenfield [00:55:26]: Compliance with the FTC guidelines, please assume the following about links and posts on this site. Most of the links going to products are often affiliate links of which I receive a small commission from sales of certain items. But the price is the same for you and sometimes I even get to share a unique and somewhat significant discount with you. In some cases I might also be an investor in a company mention. I'm the founder, for example of Kion LLC, the makers of Kion branded supplements and products, which I talk about quite a bit. Regardless of the relationship, if I post or talk about an affiliate link to a product, it is indeed something I personally use support and with full authenticity and transparency recommend. In good conscience, I personally vet each and every product that I talk about. My first priority is providing valuable information and resources to you that help you positively optimize your mind, body and spirit, and I'll only ever link to products or resources, affiliate or otherwise, that fit within this purpose.

Ben Greenfield [00:56:26]: So there's your fancy legal disclaimer.