July 29, 2023

From podcast: https://bengreenfieldlife.com/podcast/biohacking-podcasts/mario-nawfal-podcast/

[00:00:00] Introduction

[00:01:27] Who is Mario Nawfal?

[00:06:05] How does the Twitter Spaces go? 

[00:09:51] What got Mario into biohacking?

[00:15:43] Tracking Methods

[00:17:34] Typical Day in a Life of Mario: Diet

[00:24:56] Sleep

[00:37:34] Biohacking Technologies

[00:50:48] Workout/Exercise

[00:57:33] Stem Cells

[01:03:00] Ben's Evaluation of Mario's Routine

[01:05:00] Nootropics and/or Smart Drugs

[01:08:16] Health fitness biohacking space coming down the pipeline

[01:14:17] Closing the Podcast

[01:16:48] End of Podcast

[01:10:02] Disclaimer

Ben:  My name is Ben Greenfield. And, on this episode of the Ben Greenfield Life podcast.

You should know that cold water immersion, particularly when the head goes under the water is far, far more advantageous compared to cryotherapy. The reason for that is it activates, what's called, the mammalian dive reflex and tones the vagus nerve. So, all the nervous system benefits that you get from cold only happen if you're in cold water with the head underneath.

The other thing is that the cold water, you might notice, it feels a little bit less comfortable than the cryotherapy chamber because of what's called that hydrostatic pressure of the water against the skin. The cold water is also more effective at eliciting the fat burn, the shivering response, the shift of white fat to brown fat. So, if you had to choose something, I'd say water, but since you have the cryotherapy chamber, I'd say keep doing it but then consider at least once a week kind of going a little bit longer with the cold water and making sure your head is going under a few times.

Faith, family, fitness, health, performance, nutrition, longevity, ancestral living, biohacking, and a whole lot more. Welcome to the show.

Folks, my guest on today's podcast is actually a guy who pretty much started with nothing, launched a $10 million company over the course of a couple years, launched another company called IBC Group and took that to nine figures, took another group called NFT Tech Public and now manages and hosts one of the largest Twitter Spaces that's ever existed, millions of listeners per week with guests like Elon Musk, and Hunter Biden, and Mark Andreasen, and Charles Hoskinson, and Michael Cohen, a bunch of other top crypto exchange folks, entrepreneurs, and a plethora of other high profile names. He's talked on TEDx. He's speaking to me today from Dubai. He's heavily in demand when it comes to speaking at tech spaces but also behind the scenes. He's a pretty prolific biohacker and loves all these cutting-edge technologies, health technologies. As a matter of fact so much that he even has someone who manages a lot of this for him as far as putting together all the cool things that he does to optimize his body.

So, folks, my guest on today's show is Mario Nawfal. All of the shownotes are going to be at BenGreenfieldLife.com/Mario. And, that being said, Mario, it's pretty special that I interviewed somebody and they actually have an assistant with them to help them keep track of all their biohacks. That's pretty impressive, man.

Mario:  Yeah, man. So, two things, number one, it's pretty impressive that the interviewer is also in a walking treadmill while interviewing. I want to kind of point that out. And second, my assistant became my girlfriend and now manages my biohacking as well. I've got a full package next to me. She makes sure I live forever and make sure I've got a companion in life.

Ben:  Dude, if my wife managed my biohacking, I'd probably be dead.

Mario:  Yeah.

Ben:  She doesn't track jack squat.

Mario:  I'm not there yet. I'm not there yet, bro. I have a list of the reasons why I want to get married. One of them is I've heard that when you get married, things change at times. I've seen enough movies to say, we just watched “Everybody Loves Raymond,” yeah, I want the person that's making sure I live forever that doesn't change the pills or the drips. 

Ben: Exactly. My wife is amazing. I don't think she'd ever take advantage of my health insurance or anything like you've just alluded to. But, she's not an organizer or a manager. I'd probably be having lettuce and ketchup for breakfast and my fitness routine would be something like cleaning the garage. So, anyways though. Okay. And, what's your assistant's name, again, Mario? Just to make sure I get this right.

Mario:  Jennifer.

Ben:  Jennifer. I called her assistant, your girlfriend, biohacking manager assistant, whatever, Jennifer.

So, Mario, for people, a lot of my listeners and viewers, they're familiar with many people in the health and biohacking spaces but possibly not so familiar with some of these big folks like you who are doing things like hosting massive events on Twitter Spaces. And so, just as a background, what exactly is it that you do? I don't even quite fully understand it. I've just come across you a few times, seen some of the stuff you're doing and that would be cool to have you on the show.

Mario:  Yeah, man. So, I still don't know what I do, to be honest. I used to love building businesses and I've always been–I don't like the concept of death. It just doesn't make sense to me like one second you're here operating in this world and then suddenly you're just gone. It just doesn't click in my head. So, I don't like the concept of death that's why I'm obsessed with biohacking, but what I do is I started hosting at Twitter Space, an online show. I used to be on Clubhouse before. About a year ago, I used to be the biggest crypto show but then now became the biggest show ,period. So, we've had a lot of big names from Mark Cuban, Bill Ackman, bunch of senators. And, we reach millions of people a week.

So, we have a finance show in the morning, we have a politics show at night, we have a crypto show in the afternoon seven days a week or five or seven days depending on the show. And, in the works right now, we have an AI shot launching in a week or two. And, the second one is a biohacking show. I'm partnering with one of the biggest names in the industry. We're in late-stage discussions to finalize it. And, I'm also partnering with Dr. Drew to do a medical show unrelated to biohacking, general medicine covered this type of stuff.

Ben:  Which bio are you allowed to say, which biohacker you're going to have on for the show?

Mario:  I haven't asked for his permission yet and we haven't signed, so you bleep it out or just say it afterwards.

Ben:  That's alright. That's alright. I'm sure that I'll stumble across it at some point. So, when you say Twitter Show, like what's a Twitter Show? Is that the same as Spaces?

Mario:  Yeah, it's a Space, yeah.

Ben:  Okay, alright. And, you were doing Clubhouse and then you do this, and how does it work? Do you actually just get a person on and then you have a whole bunch of people show up and ask questions or what's the show actually comprised of?

Mario:  Yeah, man. It's pretty insane. You remember the FTX that collapsed?

Ben:  Yes.

Mario:  That exchange, the crypto exchange? So, when that collapsed, we were covering it live. I was doing my normal crypto show and we were covering it live, we ended up doing a 20-hour show, then a 15-hour show with a barely a few hour break to sleep a bit. And, when we covered that live, the world was watching, so kind of showed the value of Twitter Spaces where you covered things live. The media was watching, everything was happening, the whole collapse was being covered live in one place, and then the media would take all the information from that place. Elon jumped on a couple of times.

And then, since then, we used to cover a lot of live events, Silicon Valley Bank's collapse, the missile landed in Poland, and now we cover everything from LGBTQ rights to the war in Ukraine to U.S. politics today. We're doing the debt ceiling. And, whenever we cover something, it's always unbiased and in the middle. So, we get both sides coming together and debating, which is pretty interesting because CNN is biased one way, Fox News is bias another. So, there's no one doing it, we're bringing both sides together and we're doing that and it's been an incredible unexpected ongoing journey.

Ben:  Well, look, I know we're going to talk about it because you do all these cool biohacks and life extension technologies and I know you've worked with David Sinclair who's a pretty prolific guy in the health optimization space himself, but it kind of raises the question for me, how do you actually monetize a Twitter Space to be able to do something like afford your daily hyperbaric chamber or whatever?

Mario:  Yeah. Initially, the Spaces weren't making money, at least the non-crypto spaces. And, to this day, the biggest one I do every day, the politics and news ones, I've never made a cent out of it, it's just been costing me money. That's because the business funds it at least for now. The other shows, so the most obvious way to fund it is just advertisers, but it's pretty lame and not that exciting. So, we have an entire business model behind it. So, my company's an incubator, it's an AI and crypto incubator now expanding to just any startup including tech startups. So, what we do is we promote the incubator, we promote the business on the Spaces. You do your podcast, you've got a whole machine behind it that allows you to monetize it beyond just advertisers whether you're getting clients or you're selling products. So, it's a similar machine behind it, just scaled very heavily.

And then, the news and politics ones, there's many ways to monetize it and it's fascinating how the multiples are really interesting, but we haven't started monetizing it yet. We are working to take the company public later this year. We're working towards that, which means that liquidity will not be an issue. So, we don't really need to make immediate money, it's more reaching a bigger audience and leveraging it later for financial gain.

Ben:  Yeah, that makes sense. Where'd you grow up, man? That's obviously not in America.

Mario:  Australia, man. Melbourne.

Ben:  Okay. Alright, got you. And, when did you migrate out of Melbourne and come out this way or out to Dubai? And, tell me about that, I mean, Jennifer.

Mario:  Yeah, eight years ago before I met Jennifer, I traveled the world. Jennifer stumbled upon me and got stuck in this loop of what I call life, what many people call craziness. But yeah, I was traveling for eight years, man. Didn't have a home. I was literally homeless for eight years, spent most of my time in Miami, Europe, Marina del Rey, and more recently Dubai.

Ben:  Okay, got it. And, what got you into all this like getting into health, biohacking, et cetera?

Mario:  I get surprised when people ask me this. Now, I know you're asking me for an interview, but when people genuinely ask me, I'm like, “How can you not?”

Ben:  Yeah.

Mario:  How can you live? So, I'm using an extreme example just to make a point, but imagine someone getting cancer, it's like, “Hey, why are you getting treatment for this? What convinced you to get treatment?” “I have freaking cancer and you ask me why I'm getting chemotherapy.” It's the same thing here. I have a disease called death and you ask me why I'm trying to delay or prevent it?

Ben:  Yeah, yeah. That makes sense. So, do you think that it's capable for humans to achieve some type of immortality through transhumanistic efforts or at least significantly extend life or slow the rate of aging above and beyond where we're at right now?

Mario:  I'll give you a stupid answer and Jen will give you a better answer. My stupid answer is I want to try to delay aging for as long as I can until hopefully, we get a technology that can reverse it or just halt it. That's my goal and then eventually reverse it. That's my goal. I know it sounds very naïve, but I'm hopeful. And Jen, you talked about a study recently that actually shows it's not going to take that long for us, it's not going to take as long as many people make it out to be for us to actually potentially reverse aging. So, when you told me this, I got pretty excited.

Ben:  Tell me about it, Jennifer.

Jennifer:  Yeah, so already Sinclair worked with mice and he was able to actually reverse the age of mice, which was really impressive for me, that's why I believe we're not that long from reversing biological age. Another study mentioned that we're actually maybe 12 years away from finding a way to reverse it in humans.

Mario:  Yeah. And, that study got me excited, man. When I heard that, I'm like, “Shit, I have a chance.”

Ben:  Yeah, yeah. Have you seen the Rejuvenation Olympics website? Are you familiar with that at all?

Mario:  Is that the one by Bryan Johnson?

Ben:  Yeah, yeah. So, they're using what's called the DunedinPACE measurement to determine for any given, let's for simplicity say, 24-hour period, how many hours of a 24-hour period or how many days of a week or how many weeks of a year you actually are aging compared to the general population? And so, obviously, a figure that is lower than one would indicate a slowed rate of aging that theoretically, and these are what guys like Bryan Johnson, et cetera, are trying to achieve could result in almost reverse aging the closer and closer that number gets to zero. So, on this website now–

Mario:  [00:12:35] below zero is reversing.

Ben:  Below zero would be literally like Benjamin Buttoning, but the idea is there's a lot of people and I think a lot of prolific entrepreneurs, people in the tech space like you, et cetera, who have perhaps a little bit more energy or resources to devote to this who are getting down. I don't think anybody's below 0.7 right now. But, I mean folks are in the low 0.7s, which if you do the math, that would mean for a 365-day year, you might only be aging for 260, 270 days out of that year. And so, that'd be interesting for you to start the track some of the stuff you're doing. It's called the DunedinPACE measurement. And, companies like TruAge Diagnostics, they're probably one of the more popular companies that will literally have a blood spot test sent to your house and you just do the test. And then, you track on a regular basis what your efforts are actually resulting in when it comes to age reversal.

Mario:  Yeah, Jen just wrote the name, so I'm going to look into it. I heard about it in a podcast, “My First Million,” and they interviewed Bryan Johnson once. They mentioned in a podcast a couple of days ago the calendar you're talking about and they have the Olympics thing. Bryan Johnson's apparently first. Are you on there or no?

Ben:  Yeah. Well, I interviewed Bryan about four weeks ago, fascinating guy. I mean, we talk about those of us who are kind of focused on age reversal. I mean, he is on the cutting edge like 120 different supplements each day. And, I mean, he's spending, it sounds like, five to six hours a day on this, which to me can become paradoxical. If you're living a long time but spending all of those years spent cold and hungry and libidoless hunched up inside some kind of a crowd therapy chamber or hyperbaric chamber. 

But, Bryan's a nice guy. His approach seems reasonable but he definitely spends a lot of time on it. And yeah, I believe he is at the top of the list there with a low 0.7 number. I think I'm about 0.76 or something like that. He and I have very different approaches though. I have a background that's kind of a masochistic endurance and strength athlete who did a lot of damage to my body for 20 years. And, I use a lot more of the biohacking technologies. His approach seems to be more based on fasting, sane amounts of exercise, a very large number of supplements, probably about four times what I take, and a lot of tracking and testing and not doing anything unless it's steeped in science. I tend to have a little bit more like a guinea pig approach myself.

Mario:  Alright. So, when you say 120 different supplements, is that different types of supplements or different pills total including ones he takes three, four of pills?

Ben:  Based on my rough calculation looking on his website, it is actually 120 different compounds, C60, spermidine, urolithin A, NAD, all the way down to extra virgin olive oil and dark chocolate, which I think he counts as a food, not a supplement, but it's a fascinating approach. And, it actually led me to wanting to ask you before we jump into some of your strategies, you or Jennifer.

Are you doing anything from a testing or tracking standpoint to kind of see how what you're doing is working?

Jennifer:  Yeah. We constantly do blood tests every three month. That's the first thing we do. And, you mentioned through age we also do that to check if he's actually reversing his biological age or not, if everything is working.

Mario:  Yeah. That includes the Sinclair tests.

Ben:  Now, you're working with Sinclair. I think you mentioned me a couple days ago as we were throwing around some ideas for today's show that you've been working with David Sinclair?

Mario:   Yeah.

Jennifer:  Yeah.

Ben:  And, what's that actually look like?

Jennifer:  He's really good. Actually, he monitors everything from Mario's glucose levels constantly, the way he sleeps, his exercise. So, whenever he exercise, we have everything draft out. We also send him literally everything, his supplements, everything, blood tests. So, he tracks everything, gives us his feedback, and then we implement whatever he says.

Mario:  Yeah. And, he follows up with a soothing voice. It's like, “So, you have, based on your blood test, your biological age is 20% more than your chronological or whatever actual age, which is bad but don't worry we can solve it.” I'm like, “You know what, you just gave me the worst news but the way you speak seems like it's incredible news. So, thank you very much.” That's how I will describe Sinclair.

Ben:  That's a pretty good Sinclair impersonation. Yeah, “[00:17:23] _____ this is bad.” So, in terms of what you've actually learned from him or what he's teaching you or what you're implementing, and I realize this is kind of a loaded question but we got time, I would love to hear what you're actually doing, like what a typical day in the life of Mario or a week in the life of Mario looks like when it comes to biohacking, age reversal, and just general health optimization.

Mario:  Alright. Can you do me a favor though?

Ben:  Yeah.

Mario:  Be direct, tell me from scale one to ten how extreme is it, how good is it. The higher the happier I'll be, but you have to be honest, okay?

Ben:  Like give you feedback on how good your protocol is?

Mario:  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ben:  Alright. Well, I will, but do me a favor, let's make sure David Sinclair doesn't listen in because if he does and I differ with him on a certain approach, he might– 

Mario:  No, I've only just started working with Sinclair.

Jennifer:  We just started.

Mario:  A lot of his protocol you won't hear right here.

Ben:  Yeah.

Mario:  Okay. So, if I speak too much, let me know because I'm pretty geeky about this. And then, Jen will fill the voids where I'm too stupid to explain.

Ben:  Totally.

Mario:  So, I'll start with diet. Diet is I used to be vegan, now I'm pescetarian, but really wanting to focus more on vegan. I don't know what Sinclair recommends. Sinclair recommends meat and stuff. I sneaked in lamb and grass-fed beef randomly a week ago, but generally vegan pescetarian. I have eggs a lot. That's what I eat. I used to have a private chef, no longer do, technically she stole our money, disappeared. That's the truth. But, we're looking for a new chef. So, that's in terms of what I eat.

I try to sleep eight hours a day minimum.

Ben:  Okay, okay. So, just a second. I'm going to interrupt you. Let's get into details, dude, because we're long-form. We can we can geek out on this stuff. What are you doing as far as a typical breakfast, lunch, dinner, pescetarian type of approach?

Mario:  18-hour fast. I used to fast every day, been a bit shaky recently since the show, especially since the show. But, generally speaking, I eat. I'm not as strict as I was before. I monitor my calories. My weight is steady, but I do eat a lot of eggs. Don't eat much bread, sweet potatoes, vegetables. I really stopped caring enough about what I eat and that's not right. I'm keeping the healthy though. I'm sticking to healthy but I'm not really watching all the macros and stuff. I've really fallen back with this. I really got to catch on there.

Jen, check–

Jennifer:  But you have a team that does it for you.

Mario:  Yeah, but they don't warn me so they calculate my macros but they don't tell me “Mario eating too much of this, too little of that.” So, that's probably something I need to fix.

Ben:  Well, in Dubai too, it can be a little bit tough. Last time I was in Dubai, I went to a place that they were serving burgers and steaks and they were bragging about how the cows were grain-fed. But, of course, in the U.S. is the total opposite, they were looking out for the grass-fed grass-finished meat but of course, the grain-fed seems to taste better, et cetera–

Mario:  I don't eat beef. I don't eat chicken.

Ben:  But then, when it comes to things like eggs, vegetable, are you able to get things like pastured eggs, organic produce, things of that nature in Dubai?

Mario:  Yeah. The place I eat from, it doesn't say organic and stuff. I probably should start calling them. So, you give me notes to take I really appreciate this. I should check these.  These are basics. When I had a private chef, everything was organic, grass-fed, blah, blah, blah, everything. But, me losing the chef has been a hit but I'm going to start working with the chef again. So shortly, I think we have one coming to the house. So, I have a private chef again and I'm very strict on all these things in macros and I have a set menu, et cetera.

Ben:  Yeah, yeah. Okay, so you're doing more of a vegan pescetarian approach. It sounds also pretty rich on the egg front. And, of course, one of the issues, Mario, and you may have heard this concern raised before is, of course, this idea of muscle-centric medicine and muscle being a sink for things like blood glucose and muscle being a highly advantageous longevity strategy, especially things like grip strength, how much you can deadlift, your overall fast twitch muscle fiber capacity. And, of course, many vegans face an uphill battle when it comes to adequate amount of amino acids and protein for things like the anabolic approach or enough mTOR activation, things like that. 

So, it sounds like you're getting nature's perfect package protein, in my opinion, in the form of eggs, but are you doing anything else to ensure that you're getting adequate protein whether from a supplement or a food strategy standpoint?

Jennifer:  Actually, he just today decided to go back to vegan. I was telling him constantly to go plant-based. Okay. And, he used to eat once a week maybe lamb or maybe add a little bit of chicken, but very rarely. So, it wasn't that common. It was mostly plant-based. That was his diet because I was worried about his protein intake, but he just decided to change.

Mario:  Yeah. But, I'm eating pescetarian though, seafood. I eat a lot of seafood. That's protein and omega whatever.

Ben:  Yeah, yeah, that's fantastic. I mean, that's what I tell a lot of people who are choosing plant-based to at least try to work in some eggs and fish where you can. And then, the other thing that's super important, I don't know if you guys have given this much thought, is the idea of deactivating a lot of plant defense mechanisms. That means fermentation, soaking, sprouting. It would be the idea of, for example, instead of having a salad with quinoa, you're soaking quinoa overnight or sprouting the quinoa or instead of doing lots of raw greens or instead of doing lots of shoots and sprouts or with nuts, for example, soaked in sprouted nuts instead of regular seeds and nuts. 

I find that a lot of people doing the plant-based diet. They'll sometimes have digestive issues, bloating, gas, sometimes constipation, things like that, because the plant defense mechanisms haven't been deactivated. Is that something you guys think about or you've talked with David much about or any anything along those lines?

Mario:  She just took note. If you see me or her look down or look away, we're taking notes. So, we don't look at you.

Ben:  By the way, if people watch the video version of this podcast, they'll often see me with a pen and a green pad. That's what I do while I'm talking. I'm pretty old school. I'll take notes as I'm talking to the people I'm interviewing to remind me of things I might forget to ask or little things you say that I want to note down. So, I'm the same way. I'm constantly taking notes during the whole show.

So anyways, go ahead. Are you guys kind of like doing anything special with the plants?

Mario:  No, we don't do anything special with the plants but I can. So, we're going to start that. Do you want me to go back to the routine?

Ben:  Yeah. But, there's one other thing I'll throw in there. And, this is a total fox guarding the hen house type of tip for you because I actually own a supplements company, and our most popular supplement particularly for people who eat plant-based is called essential amino acids. They're a vegan source of amino acids. A couple of scoops of them is the equivalent of eating entire steak's worth of protein but they're our most popular product by far 10x. 

If you WhatsApp me or email me or whatever after the show, I want to send a couple bottles out your way just so you can kind of assess the difference in how you feel because I haven't had a single plant-based person not start on to 20, 30 grams of essential amino acids per day and report amazing sleep recovery performance, et cetera. So, later on, I'll get you a couple bottles, but anyways, go ahead and go back into your routine.

Mario:  I'm in. We're going to geek out like crazy on the biohacking show, I swear. You're going to love the co-host as well that we're going to have.

Alright, so another thing is sleep. Sleep is extremely important to me. I've got my Whoop here. I used to have an Oura Ring but I lost every week. So, I used to never have an alarm. I don't do meetings and I used to always sleep. No one wakes me up but now I have a freaking show. So now, my sleeping is all over the place but I still try to get at least an average of eight hours of sleep a day. I know that's extremely important and try to make sure it's deep sleep. I sleep in a cold room. I have a comfortable mattress, TEMPUR mattress, comfortable pillow, and I have an eye mask, sleep mask. Now, sleeping from the right time like 7:00 p.m. till 3:00 a.m., whatever the ideal time to sleep–I don't because my show is U.S. hours and I'm not in the U.S., so that makes it difficult.

Jennifer:  You also wear glasses, the TrueDark glasses to regulate for the circadian rhythm.

Ben:  Yeah, that's a really good idea, especially if you've kind of got these shifts in circadian rhythmicity that might not be ideal based on the time of your show in the U.S. time zones. The light mitigation is a huge piece. So, you're doing the blue light-blocking glasses and the sleep mask. Are you doing anything else in the cold or the light or even the EMF mitigation department when it comes to sleep?

Jennifer:  Yeah. So, he has also a cooling mattress.

Mario:  I do.

Jennifer:  Yeah.

Ben:  You're sleeping on a cooling mattress and you don't even know it, but–

Mario:  I have a cooling mattress as well. 

Ben:  Good thing somebody's in charge. What are you doing as far as the cooling mattress goes?

Jennifer:  The BedJet

Mario:  Oh, the BedJet? Yeah. So, it's like a fan, it goes under the covers. You know the BedJet? And, it cools under the cover, yeah–

Ben:  Yeah, the BedJet. Yeah, that's a different technology. Because there's the one that circulates the cold water which apparently, they're going out of business I just found out. I think it's a SleepMe, And so, I think Eight Sleep is the other solution for running cold water under your body while you sleep. But, a lot of people don't realize you could do the same thing with air, which is what the bed jet does. And, the reason I know this is because I now sleep in a Faraday canopy, you guys, which is a silver-lined fabric. I got it from this company called Shielded Healing. So, at night, the last thing I do when my wife and I climb into bed is I press a little button on the remote control and around the entire big princess poster bed, the entire bed becomes enveloped in this silver-lined cage. I can't send a text message, I can't make a phone call, there's zero signal, whatsoever, it's like you're inside this old ancient primal cave. But, of course, the problem with that is it gets warm. 

And, even though I now sleep on one of these cooling mattresses, initially the research that I did into it was on the bed jet to be able to use air to kind of blow some cool air up into that Faraday cage. Now, I just use the cooling water with a little oscillating fan that blows in. But, that BedJet is actually pretty cool technology, especially for people who don't want to mess around with the cold-water version.

Mario:  Yeah. So, what's that thing you used?

Ben:  Okay. So, it's called a Faraday canopy. So, Brian Hoyer is a guy who travels all over the country. And, I think sometimes he'll go to other areas of the world. He shows up at your house with all these different crazy meters. He walks through your whole house and he measures things like cell phone radiation and cell tower exposure, Wi-Fi radiation, dirty electricity, what your dishwasher is doing or your refrigerator, the areas that are best in terms of where to set the beds in your house and what direction they should face based on the electricity. And then, amongst other things, including things like dirty electricity filters in each room of the house or kill switches in the bedroom that will kill all the electricity, he has Faraday painting where you can paint the certain area of the house that will block all the electricity from coming into that area of the house. And then, he also has this fabric that is a shielding fabric. It's a Faraday fabric. Many people, for example, guys who are concerned about sperm quality will put their phone inside a protective case. This is a similar idea except you're literally putting your entire bed into a protective case.

My sleep when I'm at home, because I use the Oura instead of the Whoop, I just find the Oura to be easier for me, is up in the mid-90s as far as my sleep quality. And, I think a big part of it is that during the third of my life where I'm arguably wanting the most nervous system repair and recovery, I'm completely shut off from any form of ionizing radiation, which is actually it's a pretty cool little sleep hack.

And, obviously, there's other things you can do. Like you mentioned, you get rid of the light and you adjust the temperature, but I think that one of the most underrated aspects of improving your sleep score, especially for guys like you and I who are blogging, podcasting, Twitter Spaces around technology all day is to basically completely nuke all technology from the bedroom and just surround yourself in this protective canopy during the entire night of sleep.

Mario:  That's so cool. Yeah, I'm going to get that canopy thing.

Ben:  Yeah.

Jennifer:  [00:30:10] _____ without your phone.

Mario:  No, I'll be on my phone when I want to sleep, put the phone away, press the button.

Ben:  Yeah. That's amazing. You just put the phone in airplane mode.

And, by the way, not that I want to dominate the conversation here but I just love talking about this kind of stuff. When I travel, I obviously don't have that cage, Mario and Jennifer, but there's another company called No Choice. And, No Choice makes a tracksuit and a jogging suit that's entirely lined with this same silver fabric that blocks all the electricity. So, for example, if I'm on an airplane, what I do is in my bag I pack one of these jogging suits and as soon as I go through security because if you go through the security screeners, you'll look like a ghost, they'll freak out because they can't see it with the x-ray scanners or anything and then you got to get patted down, take you to the special room and everything. But, as soon as I go through security, I pull this suit on and I can go on to an airplane and not get exposed to all the Wi-Fi, everybody's cell phones, because half the people don't put their phone in airplane mode anyway, so you're getting bombarded by all these cell phones trying to seek a signal. But then, the cool thing is that same suit, if you do get to a hotel room and you feel you want to protect yourself a little bit while you sleep, you can actually just put that suit on top of your bedspread or on top of your top sheet and kind of have your own go with you shielded healing type of environment.

Mario:  That's so cool. I'm going to get that for sure.

Jennifer:  Those are good idea.

Mario:  Yeah, I've wrote it down. That's so cool.

Ben:  Yeah, yeah. So anyways, back to sleep. Are you are you taking any supplements or nutritional strategies for sleep at all?

Mario:  Yeah. Jen's getting it now. There's one I started taking recently. I'm out of it.

Jennifer:  This is actually Sinclair gave you this one.

Mario:  Yeah. Sinclair gave me this one. It's called Sweet Dreams by Serena Loves.

Ben:  Okay.

Mario:  It's got, what does that have? We've got xylitol, mannitol, cellulose, vegetable starch, and [00:32:08] _____ natural flavor citric acid.

Ben:  Oh, okay. It sounds maybe a prebiotic fiber type of approach to sleep optimization for the gut.

Mario:  Yeah.

Ben:  Do you take anything that would be CBD or inhibitory neurotransmitters or the type of things that would make your body relax or fall asleep faster?

Mario:  I tend to be okay. How long should it take me to fall asleep? I watch videos short like YouTube Shorts, which is TikTok. I watch Shorts for about 30, 45 minutes which chillaxes my brain and then I fall asleep pretty well. I used to have insomnia a couple of years ago, but I just watch those and I fall asleep. I could probably sleep even earlier if I stopped watching earlier.

Ben:  Yeah.

Mario:  But yeah, that's what I watch. And, in terms of taking CBD, don't bring CBD to Dubai.

Ben:  Yeah, yeah. Actually, I've heard that, you don't want anything on the bottom of your shoe if you don't get thrown in prison. That's a good point. Even if you can't use CBD, I'm a huge fan, especially for guys like you and I who travel a lot of melatonin. There's one guy in Sarasota Florida who literally makes these super-duper high-dose melatonin bottles and melatonin suppositories, meaning you literally put them up your butt and it's 300 milligrams of slow-release melatonin. 

When I travel or when I've been trying traveling extensively, if I were to come over to Dubai and do this interview with you guys, I do high-dose melatonin for the first couple of days and they say that for every hour that you cross when traveling, it takes a full day for your body's circadian rhythm to realign and normalize. And, I find that when I use this melatonin, I'll be flying to London in a week, I can feel fantastic as though I'm in my normal time zone within just a couple days even across an eight, nine, ten time zones.

So, melatonin is a fantastic strategy, but to reply to your question Mario about sleep latency, ideally in a proper sleep environment, it should be two to five minutes from the time you climb into bed and close your eyes to the time that you actually fall asleep. And, that's totally achievable, unfortunately, it does require rather than things like videos and things like that in the bed, usually sounds. And, there are wrap-around sleep headphones. There's one company called SleepPhones—

Mario:  I have a speaker, man. I have a speaker.

Ben:  Yeah.

Mario:  Ben, I have a speaker and I put a fan sound.

Ben:  That's perfect. That's perfect. Yeah, yeah. But, I think honestly boring books on the bedside self-improvement books or essay books or even fiction is way better than videos if you do want to decrease your sleep latency, just because of technology. As soon as your hand picks up that phone, it's thinking even subconsciously about work, about communication, et cetera. And, that's another reason I like that, that Faraday cage around the bed because you just can't even turn the phone on if you wanted to or you could but it doesn't have a signal.

So, anyways though, I'm glad that you're prioritizing sleep.

Mario:  Yeah, yeah. I'm going to start using my phone less because I think I can fall asleep easier. I just enjoy, like for me, it's not going to sleep directly. I enjoy watching better videos. It's kind of my chillaxing time because I don't take breaks during the day. So, it's a bit of a break, chillaxing, having fun, and then sleeping. It's a bit of both.

Ben:  Have you heard of the Muse headband or the Muse app?

Mario:  Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Ben:  Yeah, it'll do neurofeedback and track your brain waves and then sometimes play different sounds or breathwork but they have, related back to this idea, Mario, of what you look at or listen to helping you to fall asleep, they have the most boring stories on the freaking face of the planet built into the Muse app and you put on your headphones and you play a story. And literally, it's like some dude walking along the beach for 20 miles stopping off and having a nice cup of chamomile tea as he stares out over the veranda and the waves crash, and he hears a–dude, you can't listen to one of those stories for longer than 10 minutes without literally waking up the next morning and not knowing how the story ended or what happened. So, that's also kind of a strategy. 

Oura has the same thing. Oura has built-in super boring sleep stories and it sounds like the worst thing to listen to as you fall asleep but you actually do fall asleep very quickly especially if you tend to have racing thoughts in somebody else's voice kind of lulls you to sleep because there are these stories that you're kind of sort of interested in but not really and then you just fall asleep.

Mario:  I'm going to try it out. I'm going to get the Muse. I'm actually going to introduce you to someone. I live with a good friend of mine very, very close friend who also runs the biggest incubator in Web3, a big business guy, invests like crazy, and he has a company called BrainAlive, which is a competitor to Muse. I think you like chatting to him, so I'll just tell him to come up to my room after this interview.

Ben:  Oh, yeah, that'd be super cool. I love stuff like that. I always take a nap every day after lunch in my post-lunch nap. Because I personally sleep about six, six and a half hours a night, but I always do a nap after lunch to catch up. And, napping is my time to experiment with all the relaxation devices like the BrainTap or the Muse or some haptic device or supplement or whatever. So, I literally use post-lunch to guinea pig that kind of stuff. So, that'd be that'd be super interesting.

Mario:  Yeah, I'll connect you with him.

Ben:  Obviously, when people think biohacking, Mario and Jennifer, they think technologies like hyperbaric chambers and cryotherapy or vibration platforms or different light sound stimulation machines or whatever. I think it'd be cool to hear a little bit about what type of technologies that you're using or that Sinclair is coaching you with or anything else. What are some of the cool biohacking technologies that you're using right now?

Mario:  Yeah. So, as a clinic, I go through here in Dubai every day, so I got seven days a week. I spend about four hours there. And, what I do is I do sauna for an hour, infrared sauna.

Ben:  Four hours. Wow.

Mario:  No, four hours total, not just a sauna. Sauna is one hour.

Ben:  Are you working during this time or is this just four hours just shut off to the world?

Mario:  Working, man. No way. I cannot not work, man, I'll just get depressed.

Ben:  Okay.

Mario:  I work during the sauna. I jump on calls all the time.

Ben:  Okay.

Mario:  Sometimes I eat inside as well. Jenny will tell you a funny story once you walked in on me in the sauna.

Jennifer:  He was completely naked and we got delivered shrimps and seafood inside the sauna. So, I see him naked with all of this food.

Ben:  Okay.

Jennifer:  And, it was stinky.

Mario:  I didn't know stinky, so I was just chilling.

Ben:  We're going to rabbit hole again here real quick because I have to tell you. The sauna can be great, especially if it's a low EMF sauna or an infrared sauna, but the fact that your tissues are being heated in a sauna means any form of technology including a phone in the sauna can be way worse for you in terms of the radiation from the phone than when you're at room temperature and not in that heated environment. So, I would actually heavily advise against having your phone in the sauna. And then, the other thing is one of the benefits for longevity from an infrared sauna, and I'm fully self-conscious that I felt like I'm lecturing at you right now but that's–

Mario:  No, I love it, bro. I love this shit.

Ben:  So, one of the things that happens in the sauna is mitophagy or cleanup of the mitochondria and autophagy, which is cellular cleanup. When you have elevated triglycerides, elevated blood sugar, calories coming in, or the production of so-called incretin hormones, which are the hormones responsible for digestion, cellular autophagy and cellular mitophagy gets completely shut off. So, all of the longevity and detoxification benefits of a sauna are negated by either A, EMF, B, consuming calories in the sauna, or both. So, the best thing to do before a sauna would be to figure out a way to get the body temperature up without calories. So, when I'm going into a sauna, I'll do black pepper tea, coffee, caffeine, sometimes a nicotine lawsuit, anything–

Mario:   Bulletproof coffee?

Ben:  No, no cal because bulletproof is good but there's 200, 300 calories in that. So, just no calories. My sauna is always fasted but with some type of central nervous system stimulant like caffeine, green tea, nicotine, bitter melon extract, anything that will increase the body temperature without you needing to consume calories because then you get the best of both worlds. You get the cellular cleanup because the metabolism is elevated but the metabolism isn't elevated because you're digesting food and consuming calories. It's elevated because you've put some things into it that enhance the effects of sauna.

I should send you an article and a podcast I have on my website about all the supplements and things that you can do before cold to enhance the effects of cold, and all the things you can do before heat to enhance the effects of heat. But definitely, technology and food are not two of them. But nonetheless, I want to hear more about these four-hour forays into a biohacking facility and what else you're doing while you're there.

Mario:  Alright, so the other thing I do is once a week, I do a cold plunge as well; sauna, cold plunge. Today, I did it, sauna cold plunge, okay?

Ben:  Okay.

Mario:  Once a week is enough for the cold plunge.

Ben:  Oh, it's tricky because it depends on how long–

Mario:  I do [00:41:27] _____ everyday, by the way.

Ben:  How long and how cold.

Mario:  140.

Ben:  Okay, that's pretty good. So, you're getting brief forays into the cold. And then, is this other session that you're doing, the water session, longer?

Mario:  No. I do the water session once a week. I go in the cold water. The cold lunch is about 4 degrees Celsius.

Ben:  Okay.

Mario:  For about three minutes twice during the sauna. Two to three times.

Ben:  Yeah.

Mario:  I don't go all the way. And look, I've do enough but I got up to about here.

Ben:  Yeah, yeah. That's not bad. I mean, hot-cold contrast is different than the cryotherapy because you're getting the shift in the lymph flow and the blood fluid and kind of this natural cleanup for the body. A couple of things to realize is that most of the autophagy and longevity-enhancing benefits of cold kick in when you're cold for a longer period of time, anywhere from six, usually you cut things off around 18, 19 minutes because that's when hypothermia risk is set in.

Mario:  Listen, man. I'm barely surviving three minutes.

Ben:  I can see on the video. You're a lean guy, so I get it. I'm lean too and I struggle with the cold, but I think the best strategy for cold is once a week a longer session. Mine was actually this morning. So, I was in the cold plunge, mine is at about 37 degrees Fahrenheit. I forget what that comes out to Celsius, but I was in there for 10 minutes. And, I'll only do that length a period of time where I'm actually shivering when I get out once per week. And then, shorter more frequent cold sessions, like you're doing with the cryotherapy, sprinkled throughout the rest of the week is adequate but you should know that cold water immersion particularly when the head goes under the water is far, far more advantageous compared to cryotherapy. The reason for that is it activates what's called the mammalian dive reflex and tones the vagus nerve. So, all the nervous system benefits that you get from cold only happen if you're in cold water with the head underneath.

The other thing is that the cold water, you might notice, it feels a little bit less comfortable than the cryotherapy chamber because of what's called that hydrostatic pressure of the water against the skin. The cold water is also more effective at eliciting the fat burn, the shivering response, the shift of white fat to brown fat. So, if you had to choose something, I'd say water but since you have the cryotherapy chamber, I'd say keep doing it but then consider at least once a week kind of going a little bit longer with the cold water and making sure your head is going under a few times.

Mario:  Alright. So, first, thanks for ruining my nights. Second, so it's 4 degrees Celsius, yours is 2, minus double and I'm skinny man so I'm really skinny. I'm working on gym. we'll get to that in a bit. But, based on what you're saying, I need to do it once a week for longer, so you're saying what, four minutes?

Ben:  Oh, if you do once a week, you want it to be a shivering-induced thermogenesis. For most people who are pretty lean, it's a little longer than that. For me, it's around eight to 10 minutes. For you, it might be six to eight minutes. But, I push yourself. What I is there are really cool apps now that actually have breathwork sessions in them designed to do while you're in the cold. I think one of the best ones out there is called Othership. Instead of “mothership,” it's called Othership. And, there's 10 sessions in there that range from two minutes up to, I think, eight to 10 minutes in length and they literally coach you through breathwork while you're in the cold. And dude, it makes it go by way faster and eases the transition quite a bit for the longer cold sessions.

Mario:  I'm too busy with just screaming man and I'm not overexaggerating. I scream [00:45:20] _____–

Ben:  No, don't. Stay calm. Use it for stress resilience training, just stay calm. I know if you can manage a Twitter Space with celebrities and millions of people, you can totally breathe your way through it through a nice tub. You just got to practice.

Mario:  Alright, as you say. But, for me, it's survival. I generally think I'm getting frost bites every time.

Alright, so we do cryotherapy. I do cryotherapy 140 degrees Celsius every day that one for three minutes. I've been doing it every day for a long time. Let me tell you how much in the Fahrenheit. In Fahrenheit, this is 284 degrees Fahrenheit.

Ben:  Yeah, that's a pretty good temperature. So, that's a dry sauna and not an infrared sauna, right? 

Mario:  Yeah.

Ben:  Yeah. Are you doing red light therapy at a different time?

Mario:  Yep, I do red light therapy afterwards for 30 minutes.

Ben:  Good.

Mario:  I do PIMF.

Jennifer:  PEMF.

Mario:  PEMF, PEMF. 

Ben:  Yeah.

Mario:  For 30 minutes.

Ben:  Yeah, what's that look like, the PEMF? Are you using a mat or a pad or a coil or something like that?

Mario:  At bed. I sit on a bed that's mainly from the waist up. And, I just put a pad behind my lower back just to kind of put a bit of focus there so I have a bit of pain there sometimes.

Ben:  Yeah, that's fantastic. Just in case that went over our listener's head it's pulse electromagnetic field therapy, it basically opens and closes cell membranes. So, flushes waste out of cells. It'll cause less calcium to be in the cells. So, things like low back pain or other spasms will tend to disappear. I'm a huge fan, Mario. I do it every morning. Every morning, I get up and I'll do 10, 15 minutes of foam rolling and deep tissue work and stretching. I do a lot of that while I'm on the PEMF mat. And then, two times a month, I get a three-hour massage and I do it on top of a massage table that's plugged into the PEMF mat. So, I get full-body PEMF for six hours a month just laying there, which is fantastic. I mean, you feel a new human being if you ever use PEMF for two, three hours.

Mario:  Alright. So, I do hyperbaric chamber for an hour, seven days a week.

Ben:  Okay, got it. Got it.

Mario:  And then, I do AI–go ahead.

Ben:  I was going to ask you. Both the hyperbaric and the PEMF, they respond really well kind of like a central nervous system stimulant is good before the sauna to increase the body heat. Anything that increases blood flow is really great to pair with hyperbaric or PEMF. That could be anything from taking a nitric oxide capsule to pop in a Viagra to using Arginine or citrulline. Anything that kind of flushes the cardiovascular system, niacin would be another example, those are kind of turkey and cranberries when it comes to combining them with HBOT and/or PEMF. So, that's another thing you could stack in there.

Mario:  Yeah, just Jen is writing it down. Niacin, what else?

Ben:  There's a few options. The top ones would be niacin, high-dose niacin, arginine, citrulline, a lot of these things you'd also find in pre-workout boosters because they increase blood flow, Viagra or anything that has sildenafil or tadalafil, Cialis, Viagra, things like that or literally, there are companies that make nitric oxide lozenges and nitric oxide capsules like Conroy or Dr. Nathan Bryan has a real good suite of nitric oxide products. Some of them are even transdermal. You can smear them on the body. But, anything like that, it's kind of like a vasodilator for the entire body and it'll enhance the effects of the PEMF or the hyperbaric.

Mario:  Alright, I wrote that down. So, I do the hyperbaric after the PEMF and the–I'm sorry, I do the sauna after the hyperbaric and PEMF?

Ben:  Yeah.

Mario:  Okay.

Jennifer:  He usually takes, instead of niacin, NMN.

Ben:  Yeah, NMN isn't bad. You don't get quite as much of a flush from NMN. I mean, I love NAD as an age reversal and mitochondrial and DNA protectant as well, but I think the best form out there right now is a form of NAD that's called NAD3. Tony Robbins talked about it in his book “Life Force,” and I talked with Tony and Peter Diamandis about it on a podcast, and later a company called BioStack Labs came out with a really, really good form of NAD3. So, that's what I use for oral supplementation. 

And then, in the same way that I travel with those high-dose melatonin suppositories, I also travel with NAD patches. There's a company called Ion Layer and I slap one of those on right before I head to the airport to hop on any long-haul flights or on any day that I'm sleep-deprived because NAD is great for sleep deprivation. And so, what I'll do is a few times a month a higher dose patch occasionally an IV and then the oral supplementation. But, for the oral form, Jennifer, yes about NMN. I think NAD3 is better than NR, NMN, or NAD unless you have a nudge, nudge, wink, wink relationship with David and he can get you the NAD. I don't think it's NAD powder, I think it's technically NR powder. His powder is really good but I don't think it's available commercially.

Mario:  Alright. So, the hyperbaric chamber we discussed, and then what I do after that, there's the gym. So, I do AI gym. I started doing it every day, which there's three, four different machines. You probably don't remember them. You do?

Jennifer:  Yeah, there's the bike.

Mario:  Yeah, the bike, they should go fast for quick sprints with an oxygen restraining thing. You put an oxygen mask.

Jennifer:  And the cooling pads.

Mario:  This is this one.

Jennifer:  Yeah.

Mario:  Yeah. There's another one where you do use a vest, it's called Vasper. So, you sit like this and you go like this.

Ben:  I know. I have one at my gym. I love that thing. I use it three times a week.

Mario:  Yeah, with cold compressing here and here and on the feet.

Ben:  Yeah, that's fantastic.

Jennifer:  And under your bum like–

Mario:  And under my bum, yeah.

Ben:  And, you do the exercise with oxygen therapy, the oxygen while you're doing the Vasper?

Mario:  I do the oxygen with the bike.

Ben:  Okay, got it. Either one works. That's fine. I do mine with the Vasper. I have the one called the LiveO2 that sits right next to the Vasper. And so, you have a switch and you can do pure oxygen or hypoxia. And so, you kind of switch back and forth throughout the workout. It's fantastic.

Mario:  I do both.

Ben:  Okay, got it. Amazing.

Mario:  And then, I do the resistance training. It's AI-powered, so it knows your strength, and that goes against your strength. It's not manual.

Ben:  Oh, is it the ARX?

Mario:  I think so. Yeah, yeah, I think so.

Ben:  Yeah. It's great. It's one single set to failure and the harder you push against it, the harder it kind of pushes back against you. It's got a two-horsepower engine in it.

Mario:  Yeah, exactly.

Ben:  Yeah. So, when I travel, I do a lot of body weight, blood flow restriction training, calisthenics, walking, et cetera, but at home, my two primary exercise modalities are very similar to yours, the Vasper and the ARX Fit, which is an AI-powered device similar to what you just described. So, those are fantastic for strength and cardiovascular.

Mario:  Yeah, pulling, pushing legs, upper body, ropes, everything, all of the AI-powered. 

Ben:  Yeah, yeah. It's probably a very similar device. You just do a few exercises, you're just doing one set as hard as you can to failure.

Jennifer:  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mario:  Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.

Ben:  Yeah, that's perfect.

Mario:  So, I do that every day, man. Seven days a week. I started doing it a couple of months ago.

Jennifer:  No, at the gym you don't do that every day.

Mario:  Yeah, every day now.

Jennifer:  When did this happen?

Mario:  I meant to take a day off. No, I meant to take according to James, one day off.

Ben:  It depends how old you are. If you're over 40, two or three days of ease.  I'm 41 now and so I find that I have now three days a week, and all those three days are sauna, cold, walking, stretching, foam rolling and maybe a little bit of pickleball or tennis. And then, the other four days are Vasper, ARX strength training. So, yeah, you could probably get by with a day of really smartly programmed recovery and still hit weights and cardio most days as long as it's not excessive. I actually think that consistency and frequency especially for busy guys like you kind of trumps massive huge long two-hour weight training workouts.

Mario:  Oh, yeah, I do pressotherapy, detox compression. I do it a couple of times a week. I think that's enough.

Ben:  What's that?

Mario:  Upper body and lower body.

Ben:  What's detox compression therapy?

Jennifer:  Pressotherapy for lymphatic drainage.

Ben:  Is that the boots and the arm sleeves that compress air and then release?

Jennifer:  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ben:  Oh, yeah, those are wonderful. Yeah, I have one of those actually set up next to my PEMF unit. And, if I'm reading a book or something, we'll pull on those beats. Yeah.

Mario:  Should I do it every day?

Ben:  Oh, yeah, you can totally do that every day. I mean, you could kind of kill two birds with one stone and work while you're in those things. And, I'll sometimes do that with a book or a laptop. So yeah, those are fantastic. The company over here in the U.S. that's the leading company for that is what was called Normatec. They were just purchased by a company called Hyperice but it's the same thing. They have arm sleeves and leg sleeves that I think a lot of my listeners have probably heard of these before. They compress your limbs from the distal to the proximal joint and kind of move blood back towards the heart and your legs just feel light as a feather after you get out of those things.

Mario:  Yeah, I just wrote it down to make sure I do it every day.

Jennifer:  The meditation chair. You do yoga, stretching, Theragun.

Mario:  Yeah, I do the Theragun. I don't do the meditation chair which I should and I do stretching, assisted stretching a couple of times a week.

Ben:  What's the meditation chair?

Jennifer:  So, because he never gets a break, they have a chair that he puts headphones, it vibrates a bit, and he listens to some nice story, et cetera, just like to turn off everything– 

Mario:  Walking on a river or something like that.

Ben:  Oh, okay, cool. Yeah, that's fantastic. I think there's actually one of those over here. I'm thinking about getting on the podcast because I was at a medical facility down in Florida. I actually did a ketamine therapy session on it, which was pretty, pretty game-changing to combine ketamine with meditation and this chair, but you've probably been in those chairs at the airport and you sit in them and they give you a massage. This does full chair vibration, extremely intense. Your entire body is shaking and trembling, but it does it in queue to the music and then you're wearing a pair of headphones that tells you when to breathe in and when to breathe out. It's called a Shiftwave.

Mario:  That's what I do.

Jennifer:  That's the one he does. That's the one he does.

Ben:  Oh, my gosh. Yeah, is it the Shiftwave chair? Do you know?

Mario:  I think so. Yeah, yeah, I think so. I remember the logo on the mask, on the face.

Ben:  I haven't even done a podcast on it yet and haven't talked about that thing much on the podcast yet because I was actually hoping to establish some kind of a relationship with them first. But yeah, that thing is it's crazy, it's a massage chair on steroids with breathwork and meditation and music all combined.

Mario:  Should I do it?

Ben:  If you're a busy guy and it sounds like you are with a tendency towards racing thoughts, ruminating, having a hard time shutting the brain off, there's something about introducing that haptic vibratory sensation to the breath work and the meditation you're already doing that eases the transition into just kind of shutting the brain off. Obviously, like I mentioned, the first time I did it, I also had an intramuscular injection of ketamine. So, my brain was definitely turned off but I'm actually in the process of learning a lot more about that vibration chair. So, that's fantastic, you have access to one.

Mario:  Yeah, done. Alright, yeah, I have access to that place has it.

Jennifer:  You also do NAC drips.

Mario:  Yeah. And, I do NAC drips.

Ben:  Yeah. N-acetyl cysteine.

Mario:  Okay.

Ben:  Yeah, that's fantastic.

Mario:  Yeah. Anything?

Ben:  Do you ever do much in the realm of stem cell injections or exosomes or anything like that?

Jennifer:  No, we really want to do stem cell injections. We don't start yet but we're really keen on those.

Ben:  Yeah. There's one doctor over there. You got to be careful. You want to make sure that somebody has access to clean stem cells and is often combining them with exosomes and they're injecting those joints. You want to make sure they're using ultrasound to make sure that the digital imaging is there, but there's one guy over there, his last name is Khan, I think, K-H-A-N, Adeel Khan. And, I think he has a clinic in Dubai and he's the guy, I believe, that treats a lot of the royal family and a lot of the celebs over there with stem cells. So, Adeel Khan would be a guy to look into for the stem cell piece because obviously, you want to be careful.

Mario:  What's his first name?

Ben:  I think it's Adeel. I've got him in WhatsApp here. I think it's A-D-E-E-L. Let me double-check to make sure, but yeah, he would be the guy in Dubai particularly for stem. Yeah, Adeel Khan, A-D-E-E-L K-H-A-N. 

Jennifer:  Does he own bio institute clinic in Dubai? Do you know?

Ben:  No. But, I haven't been in Dubai for like three years. What is it?

Jennifer:  Okay. No, because we were really interested in pursuing stem cells there. As far as I know, it's the only clinic in Dubai that does this.

Ben:  Okay. That might be his place. I'd look it up, but some of these places fly under the radar so you might just want to look up his name or you guys can always–I can connect you guys on WhatsApp later on if you want because, yeah, I mean, obviously stem cells are a pretty significant part of an age reversal protocol if you've got access to the right ones. And, a lot of the things you're doing like the PEMF, the red light therapy, et cetera, is perfect to pair with stem cell treatments because it helps those young cells survive.

I did want to tell you guys one thing that's interesting. I learned this from a biologist over here in the states named Dr. Gary Brecka or actually he's actually not doctor, he's biologist, Gary Brecka. And, he has a protocol called the Superhuman Protocol. It's kind of similar to what you're already doing. It starts with PEMF, which like I mentioned, opens and closes the cell membranes. It kind of activates the cells. Step two out of 3 is exercise with oxygen therapy like you're already doing, but then you save the red light until after you've done the PEMF and the oxygen therapy because at that point, these cells are in a high metabolically active state, full of oxygen. And, when the photons of light hit the cell, it produces a lot more ATP than it would normally. 

So, as far as the arrangement or the order if you were going to go or if one of our listeners was going to go do a session similar to what you guys are describing, you could actually, in priority of order, do first PEMF and then second your exercise with oxygen therapy and then third, the red light. And, what I tell people who can't afford or who don't have access to a lot of that stuff, the primal equivalent is go outside for a walk barefoot, grounding, and then do a breathwork session and then go out and lay in the sunlight for 20 minutes. So, you can do the primal ancestral version or the modern biohacking version, but you actually feel a million bucks after doing that.

Mario:  So, do I do the oxygen chamber before the red light?

Ben:  Yeah, yeah. You do the PEMF, then the oxygen, then the red light. 

Mario:  And exercise. So, exercise after oxygen, yeah?

Ben:  Or with oxygen.

Mario:  Okay. And, I mean, talking about the oxygen chamber itself–

Jennifer:  Hyperbaric chamber.

Mario:  Hyperbaric.

Ben:  Oh, the hyperbaric. No, that's different because hyperbaric, you could do it as a part of this. So, you'd either do PEMF, hyperbaric, red light in that order, or PEMF, exercise with oxygen and/or hyperbaric and then red light in that order.

Mario:  And then, when do I do the cryo?

Ben:  Preferably the cryo would be either at the very beginning of everything to induce that adrenaline norepinephrine response or at the end to cool the body's temperature but not too much or both. Start and end with the cold. I should throw the caveat in there though for that longer cold session. A lot of people kind of have the impression that you're not supposed to do cold after a workout at all because it excessively blunts the body's inflammatory response and limits the type of gains that you get such as satellite cell proliferation or mitochondrial biogenesis but you have to be cold for a long time for that to happen. 

So, the only time you wouldn't want to do cold right after workout, Mario, would be that longer cold-water immersion session I recommend it to you. That's the one that you wouldn't want to do after workout. All the rest of these shorter cryotherapy sessions ideally at the beginning to wake up the body and charge it up and then if you can also at the end to cool the body's temperature.

Mario:  And, how about the sauna? Do I do this in the middle somewhere or?

Ben:  Most of the research on the performance and red blood cell production capabilities of a sauna treatment involve doing the sauna after you've exercised. So, in an ideal scenario, you'd kind of rehydrate after your exercise session and then go in the sauna after that.

Mario:  So, red light or sauna after exercise?

Ben:  Yup. Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.

Mario:  Nice.

Ben:  Go ahead.

Mario:  No, no, I was going to ask you based on what I've told you so far, and be brutally honest, how good is it?

Ben:  It's pretty good. There's a few little mild variations in the order of exercises that we talked about and possibly the need for a little bit of recovery thrown in there like a day that's just focused on sauna, ice, cold, walking, foam rolling, massage, things like that. As you age, you'll probably find six days a week or it's just very difficult to pull off. But ultimately, it's a pretty good protocol. I would say, honestly the main red flag for me of everything that you've just described is I think your sleep habits and sleep environment might be able to be optimized a little bit better based on some of the stuff we talked about. But, I mean, you're pretty privileged and that you have access to this facility. What's the name? Is this just all your own stuff or is this a private facility that you go to?

Mario:  It's a private facility that I go to. It's called Byformation.

Jennifer:  Byformation.

Ben:  Byformation, okay.

Mario:  They have two places in Dubai, a place in Singapore and one in New York.

Ben:  Okay. Yeah, I have a lot of listeners who are in many of those locations who might be interested in this place. But yeah, you have access to that place and you're using a lot of the things that you should be using for it. So, the other thing I would definitely bear in mind on this pescetarian route that you're going like I mentioned is just fermentation, soaking, and sprouting. And, you can tell your chef this as well to deactivate a lot of those plant defense mechanisms combined with a pretty good use of something like either a vegan protein powder or essential amino acids or both. So, you really maintaining adequate levels of protein.

A lot of people think that's just for muscle, but again for a guy like you, the neurotransmitters in the brain are a big part of that too. And, even though we're coming up on time here in a little bit, I did want to ask you that speaking of neurotransmitters because a lot of guys in the tech space, entrepreneurs, et cetera, they're into things like nootropics and smart drugs, maybe modafinil or micro dosing with psilocybin which I would imagine probably isn't a thing in Dubai or some kind of done for you nootropic or brain enhancing blend. Are you into any of that type of stuff like things that you would take to enhance your mental output?

Mario:  Lion's mane. Jen just told me but that's it.

Ben:  Yeah. Well, lion's mane is fantastic. That's a good one.

Mario:  I'm pretty productive to be better at focusing, but do you think I should look into nootropics? I don't know what's legal or not in Dubai, so I'm able to do.

Ben:  Oh, man, there are literally hundreds of them– 

Mario:  Okay, about legality. Forget about the legality [01:05:36] _____ in Dubai.

Ben:  I would say as far as legality and efficacy if I were going to talk about things that aren't generally known by the public–a lot of people talk about Onnit's Alpha BRAIN or Qualia Mind or all these done-for-you brain supplements you can get off Amazon, there are more fringe companies like Nootropics Depot or Limitless Life Nootropics, and I'll link to these in the shownotes if people want to dig into them. Just go to BenGreenfieldLife.com/Mario.

But, of the ones out there that I think more people who are really pushing themselves on a daily basis should know about, there's a relatively new one called Cognance, C-O-G-N-A-N-C-E. It puts you into a hyper-productive focused and creative mode for a solid 10, 12 hours without a lot of the side effects like the sleep side effects or the lack of personality side effects of something like modafinil, which was the drug that the movie “Limitless” was based off of. That one's called Cognance. The way it works is actually very similar to psilocybin but without the psychedelic effects. It triggers some of the similar receptors.

So, Cognance is one. If you were to get that, definitely take slightly higher dose fish oil when you take it because your brain starts working so fast, you actually burn through what's called your choline levels pretty quickly. But, that thing combined with about 4 to 6 grams of fish oil is one of my new favorites.

And then, the other one is a peptide. And, I know that Limitless Life Nootropics has this and I like it because even though most peptides you need to inject, this one is a nasal spray. It's called Semax/Selank, S-E-M-A-X/S-E-L-A-N-K. About two to three sprays of that is not only something that a lot of people use for depression and anxiety and mood, but it has a really profound cognitive enhancing effect that lasts about four to six hours. And technically, it could be combined with the Cognance but those two would probably be two that aren't really that popular out there but that I've been recommending to a few of my kind of higher-end entrepreneurs and execs to use during their busier days and they're definite game changers.

Mario:  Alright, man, I wrote them all down. Look at the notes. Look at this. This is just mine.

Ben:  You might have more notes than me.

Jennifer:  Mine is too bright.

Ben:  Hey, I did want to ask you guys because Mario you're pretty connected and you talk with a lot of smart people on Twitter Spaces, et cetera, and from what I understand you even do a little bit of investing, I think. Is there anything that you're looking at in the health fitness biohacking space coming down the pipeline that you think is super interesting or is going to be popular or that a lot of people don't know about but you've kind of got your eyes on?

Mario:  Anything specific. For me, I'm a more business person so I'm looking at media. So, I think the media side of this is fast. One thing it's going to be interesting for you. I've talked to a lot of people about this, investors and people that are wealthy and I'm just going to use the word conversion rate, the conversion rate and I'm not selling anything, the conversion rate is ridiculous. They all want to learn more without me even trying to sell it, just tell them I do this, this and that. Please bring me. Like my friend, a businessman that I'll introduce you to in a bit, the BrainAlive one that competes with that thing for the head you talked about earlier, what's it called, the one facility?

Jennifer:  Neurolink?

Mario:  Neurolink? No.

Jennifer:  No, no, Muse.

Mario:  Muse. 

Ben:  Yeah.

Mario:  So, he came with me to biohacking today and he's more into meditation and that side of things, the spiritual side of life. So yeah, this is one observation that doesn't answer your question directly in terms of particular products, I think the whole AI-gym because gym is something that everyone relates to, it's not getting going down that extreme end that we were talking about, and I think it's a very relatable and a very low hanging fruit for any business-minded person. And then, what formation is doing, look, I want to get equity in them because I love what they're doing. I think the concept is great and I think there's three industries in the world that I'm really fascinated by and I'm really bullish on, Web3 crypto, number one, number two is AI, and number three is biohacking and anti-aging, which I think it hasn't reached its hype phase yet, whereas AI and crypto have. I hope that answers your question. I don't know if there's anything you can think of that people pay attention to.

Ben:  It does, it does. That gives–

Jennifer:  No, I'm just–

Ben:  Go ahead, Jennifer.

Jennifer:  I think people should treat aging as a disease.

Mario:  Yeah.

Ben:  That's Sinclair's whole idea, right?

Jennifer:  In my opinion, I think people should look more at aging as a disease.

Ben:  Yeah, yeah. Something that is actually manageable and preventable. Look, I don't think death is preventable and actually I'm a Christian so I kind of want to die so I can go to heaven, but at the same time, my goal is to maximize my lifespan and my health span as much as possible during whatever time I'm blessed with here on this planet so I can help as many people as possible. 

And, it's actually interesting what you describe Mario, Web3, AI, and biohacking. I don't think those three have fully merged to the capability that they they're capable of. Not the overused word like capable, but basically Web3 and the ability to be able to interact virtually with a trainer or in some type of a virtual environment, AI to be able to very precisely do things like measure and quantify what you're doing and then deliver you customized nutrition and fitness programs based on that and then of course biohacking to use things like you're using at this bio formation labs, like the minimal effective dose of exercise using the best technologies. I could see folks getting to a point where they could step into a facility like you've just described and let's say maybe they don't have four hours, maybe they've got one hour, you could have, well, I could put it this way, a far, far more effective workout than most people are getting right now in their average hour-long workout at the typical gym with a personal trainer. 

And, don't get me wrong, I'm all about going outside and swinging a tennis racket and picking up heavy rocks and running through the trees and doing some pull-ups from tree branches, but the technology side of things is pretty interesting too especially when it comes to folks who are busy who want the minimal effective dose of exercise and who want to use every technology tool at their disposal to achieve that.

Mario:  Yeah, man. I'm with you 100% and I have to introduce you to Gaurav. I think you guys will click. So, the company's BrainAlive, it's AI with Web3. It's got a token. It's an AI product and it's a competitor to a lot of these users and other competitors. So, I think you'd love it. Do you want me to bring him up now, see if he's available for quick two-minute chat? I think you guys will click.

Ben:  Don't bring him up now because I have a hard stop in 5:00 and we got to close out the podcast. But, tell you what–

Mario:   I'll connect you on WhatsApp.

Ben:  Yeah, do a WhatsApp or an email intro. And then, what you said about conversion rates is also super interesting because I'm shocked at the number. I mean, I had three conversations this week with guys who are paying like physicians or biohackers up to $30,000 a month to oversee their programs. And, I've seen the programs they're getting in, they're not that great. But nonetheless, it's shocking to me the number of wealthy entrepreneurs who are spending a lot of time and money on this stuff and getting taken advantage of. So, I want to make sure I put that out there to folks just because somebody says they're world famous biohacker or doctor or something, always get a second opinion if you can because I've seen people with super messed up programs who are literally emptying out their wallet every month because somebody who just knows that they, whatever, made a bunch of money in Bitcoin or something. So, proceed with caution.

Mario:  Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I haven't experienced those because luckily, I have Jen and she obsesses with your contents and Claire's content and others. Peter Diamandis, I think.

Ben:  Yeah, yeah, Peter is great too.

Mario:  She's obsessed with you guys. When I said to her you're going to jump on a call with Ben Greenfield, she's like, “I can't do it. No, Ben Greenfield? No.” So, that's how geeked out she.

Ben:  You did a great job. You guys are like Batman and Robin. So, I love it. It looks like you make a good team.

Jennifer:  Thank you.

Ben:  Like I mentioned, we're running short on time, but Mario, I would imagine a lot of people might want to check out some of these Spaces that you do particularly for my listening audience, I know a lot of them are probably into some of the economic and political type of discussions that you're having. I know they'll be interested in some of these biohacking discussions–

Mario:  We'll be doing biohacking ones.

Ben:  Yeah, that's what I was going to say that [01:14:36] _____ that. So, tell me the best way for people to find out more about those or see a schedule or whatever.

Mario:  Yeah, just Google my name, Mario Nawfal, N-A-W-F-A-L, and follow me on Twitter because whenever I start a Space, you'll get notified. So, Mario Nawfal, and yeah, we'll be doing these live shows for biohacking even though it's not a mass audience like politics or finance or even crypto, AI, it's one that I think is too important and, from a business side, I want to dominate the media early on like we did in all the other industries.

Ben:  Yeah, yeah. And, I think I'm already following you on Twitter and definitely folks give Mario a follow. I'll link to in the shownotes at BenGreenfieldLife.com/Mario, all of his accounts; Instagram, Twitter, et cetera. But, I'll definitely be hopping in and joining on for a session once you launch one of those biohacking spaces because it's something I love to see. I used to pop randomly and do a few of them when they used to be on Clubhouse, but I haven't gotten that involved on Twitter Spaces. So, you've motivated me now. I'll jump into one at some point.

Mario:  Yeah, just subscribed to you on Twitter as well. I can see you've got subscription, so I'm a subscriber of yours.

Ben:  Cool, awesome. Well, you guys, this has been a fascinating discussion. I really enjoyed it. It was just fun to geek out and obviously, we all love this stuff and hopefully, if you're listening in right now to this podcast, you got a few tips. But, if you want to leave your own comments, questions, feedback, et cetera, for me or for Mario or for Jennifer, go to BenGreenfieldLife.com/Mario. And, that's where you'll find all the goodies in the shownotes.

So, Mario and Jennifer, thank you so much for doing this and taking the time and stopping your busy day in Dubai to join me.

Jennifer:  Thank you for having us.

Mario:  Appreciate it, man. Thank you, Ben.

Ben:  Awesome, awesome. Alright, folks. Well, I'm Ben Greenfield signing out with Mario Nawfal and Jennifer. I don't even know your last name, Jennifer. I don't know. It will be Nawfal pretty soon. But anyways, what's your last name or are you allowed to say it?

Jennifer:  Zahm.

Ben:  Zahm.

Mario:  Z-A-H-M

Ben:  Z-A-H-M. Okay, cool. And, next time I'm over there in Dubai I'll look you guys up, we'll connect at some point. So, in the meantime, folks, BenGreenfieldLife.com/Mario for the shownotes. Thanks for joining.

More than ever these days, people like you and me need a fresh entertaining, well-informed, and often outside-the-box approach to discovering the health, and happiness, and hope that we all crave. So, I hope I've been able to do that for you on this episode today. And, if you liked it or if you love what I'm up to, then please leave me a review on your preferred podcast listening channel wherever that might be, and just find the Ben Greenfield Life episode. Say something nice. Thanks so much. It means a lot.

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My guest on today's show, Mario Nawfal, started with nothing.

Yet, this self-starter's relentless drive and ingenious mind transformed that ‘nothing' into an entrepreneurial empire, impacting several industries and promoting healthier lifestyles on a global scale.

When Mario launched Froothie, a company that makes the highest-quality kitchen appliances, it became a multi-million-dollar business in just two years. Froothie is more than just a business—it's a platform Mario uses to advocate for healthier lifestyles, promoting healthier food and drink choices across the globe. Today, Froothie is a globally recognized brand, standing firm on its mission: to make healthy living not just accessible, but enjoyable for everyone.

But Mario didn’t stop there. He later established the IBC Group, initially a consulting firm that quickly rose to be a leader in its space. True to his innovative spirit, Mario expanded the IBC Group beyond consulting, merging it with WeAreGrowthHackers.com to encompass growth hacking, marketing, and investing. Now, the IBC Group incubates and accelerates top-tier projects, truly embodying the entrepreneurial spirit Mario possesses.

Beyond his business accomplishments, Mario is also the charismatic host of The Roundtable, one of the largest Twitter spaces with an astounding weekly audience reaching into the millions. His guests' roster is a who's who of high-profile figures—everyone from Elon Musk to Marc Andreessen. As an in-demand speaker, Mario has shared his insights and experiences on top-tier stages around the globe, including TEDx, echoing his passion for entrepreneurial growth and development.

-And much more…

Upcoming Events:

• Walk For Water: August 8th, 2023

The team and I here at Ben Greenfield Life will be participating in a special Walk For Water event this year. Around the world, 2.2 billion people lack access to safe water. Millions of women and children walk more than three miles to collect water for their families every day. Often this water is not safe to drink, resulting in illness and even death, but we have the power to change this. I invite you to join us by walking for water yourself. Just $50 can provide clean water for one person for life. Learn more here.

• Disrupt Healthcare: September 28 – September 30, 2023

Join me for the Disrupt 2023 Event in Atlanta, Georgia between September 28th – September 30th. This highly practical and immersive workshop will feature live Q&As, my top secrets for career success, and much more! Head to bengreenfieldlife.com/disrupt2023 to claim your spot today.

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• Keep up on Ben's LIVE appearances by following bengreenfieldfitness.com/calendar!

Resources from this episode:

– Mario Nawfal:

• Website: https://marionawfal.com/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mario-nawfal/
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/marionawfal/
• Twitter: https://twitter.com/MarioNawfal
• IBC Website: https://ibcgroup.io/
• Roundtable Website: https://roundtable.club/

– Podcasts And Articles:

• A Step-By-Step Blueprint For Longevity: The Most Advanced Age Reversal Strategies Known To Humankind, With Bryan Johnson.
• Ben Greenfield Interviews Dr. David Sinclair About Lifespan: Why We Age―and Why We Don’t Have To.
• Hunting Down EMF In Your Office, Bedroom, Gym & Beyond: Is Your Home’s “Dirty Electricity” Wrecking Your Sleep, Your Recovery, Your Health & More? The Official Ben Greenfield & Brian Hoyer Low-EMF Home How-To.
• Fire & Ice: Tips, Tricks & Biohacks To Maximize The Benefits Of Sauna, Hyperthermia, Cryotherapy & Cold Thermogenesis.
• Tony Robbins, Peter Diamandis & Ben Greenfield Reveal New Anti-Aging Biohacks & Breakthroughs in Precision Medicine You’ve Never Heard Of Before.
• The Difference Between Getting Stem Cells Internationally Vs. The USA, Peptides, Testosterone & Hormones, Tissue Engineering, DNA Editing, Truths & Myths Of Regenerative Medicine & More With Dr. Adeel Khan.
• The Superhuman Protocol That Declumps Cells, Hyperoxygenates The Body, Restores Cellular Wellness & Much More, With Gary Brecka.
• The Ultimate Guide To Cold Thermogenesis, Part 2: How To Do Cold Thermogenesis The Right Way, Supplements For Better Results & My Top 5 Cold Therapy Tips.
• The Ultimate Guide To Cold Thermogenesis, Part 1: 5 “Cool” Health Benefits Of Cold Exposure.

– Other Resources:

• Life Force by Tony Robbins and Peter Diamandis
• Kion Aminos
• Black Pepper Tea
• Green Tea
• Coffee
• Nicotine
• Bitter Melon Extract (Kion Lean)
• Niacin
• Arginine
• Citrulline
• Nitric Oxide Lozenges
• Nitric Oxide Tablets
• NAD3 by Biostack Labs
• NAD Patches by Ion Layer
• Lion’s mane
• Alpha Brain
• Nootropics Depot
• Limitless Life Nootropics
• Cognance
• Fish Oil
• Oura Ring
• Sleepmask
• True Dark Glasses
• RA Optics Blue Light Blocking Glasses
• sleepme
• Eight Sleep
• Bed Jet
• Faraday Canopy by Shielded Healing
• Whoop
• No Choice (use code BENPROTECT to save 5%)
• Sweet Dreams
• High Dose Melatonin Suppositories (use code BEN to save 5%)
• SleepPhones
• Muse (use code BENGREENFIELD to save 20%)
• Qualia Mind (use code BGF to save 15%)
• Brain Alive
• Infrared Sauna
• Morozko Forge Cold Bath
• Othership
• JOOVV Red Light
• PEMF
• HBOT
• Vasper
• LiveO2
• ARX
• BFR Bands
• NormaTec
• Shiftwave
• TheraGun
• AI Gym

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Big Bold Health: Right now, Big Bold Health is offering listeners of this podcast 10% off your order. You can use this for Microbiome Rejuvenate, Himalayan Tartary Buckwheat Flour or any other single products. To claim your offer, head to BigBoldHealth.com and use code BEN10 for 10% off.

Do you have questions, thoughts or feedback for Mario Nawfal or me? Leave your comments below and one of us will reply!