June 16, 2018
Click here for the full written transcript of this podcast episode.
I recently hired certified building biologist Brian Hoyer to do a full day “dirty electricity” and biological health analysis of my entire “biohacked home” in Spokane, WA (the same home I write about in this book), and he found some pretty shocking and surprising issues.
…when I'm inside my low EMF infrared sauna (which we tested and found was indeed low EMF), my body is getting exposed to cell tower transmissions and radio waves and being “as an antenna” to propagate those waves (we discuss solutions in the episode)…
…the master bedroom of my house is actually located over a geothermal stressor area (which causes large amounts of magnetic field exposure) and the mattress itself is propagating and magnifying this electromagnetic signal, and there are hefty amounts of radio and cell phone tower signals pouring in through the bedroom walls…
…my twin boys are being exposed to nearly twice this amount of electrical stress in their bedroom due in part to their pet dragon lizard lighting and elaborate “Christmas tree” lighting they've decorated their room with…
…my office is mostly protected – thanks in part to the dirty electricity filters I have spread throughout the office – but my so-called “biologically friendly” LED lighting is producing a heavy amount of flicker that is nothing like that of the sun…
…my Molekule air filter had an intense WiFi/Bluetooth signal emitting from it even in sleep mode. Brian disabled it. He actually owns one of these filters too and didn't realize I had one until he investigated and located the WiFi/Bluetooth source with his RF meter.
…my home security system gives off 12 RF/WiFi pulses every time the doors shut or open…
…the dish on the east side of my house is broadcasting WiFi (despite my home not having a WiFi router enabled), leading Brian to recommend putting the dish further from the house and running the cable underground and up through the wall at the same location, or mounting a metal box around it to block the signal from coming toward your home…
…there are four cell phone antennas located within a mile from me…
-Ptera antenna 1 3.650 GHZ
-Ptera antenna 2 3.650 GHZ
-Ptera antenna 3 3.650 GHZ
-Ptera antenna 4 3.650 GHZ
…and another four with higher frequencies within three miles from me…
-Ptera 18 antennas transmitting at 11 GHZ to 19 GHZ
-Ptera 29 antennas transmitting at 11 GHZ to 18 GHZ
-T-mobile 8 antennas at 21.8 GHZ and 1 at 19 GHZ
-T-mobile 10 antennas at 19 GHZ
…and there are hundreds more transmitting all around my “isolated” home in the forest. Just imagine what it's like in a city or more urban area!
Brian's meter only detects up to 8 GHZ, and he doesn't know for sure where those higher frequency cell phone signals are aimed. 5G technology is going to use frequencies up to 100 GHZ, which sounds horrible but, in reality, after about 30 GHZ the waves have a much hard time penetrating solid objects. Up to 30 GHZ, however, can penetrate if there is enough power behind it, and cell phone companies have to ramp up the power going up to 30 GHZ in order to push through solid objects. This is why 5G networks will have to use the higher frequencies in conjunction with the lower ones. When it comes to shielding effectiveness against these issues, Brian highly recommended this article.
In the podcast, Brian also speaks about another 5G test study. See, the Telecom industry has done many tests to see what the barriers are to the networks working well that they plan to install. These are perfect to look at because technically you'd want to build or outfit your home from these materials. It also gives a good idea on how well the shielding paint will hold up against the higher 5G frequencies. Brian is convinced that the layers of T98 shield paint we discuss in this show will 5G proof my home since the third party test reports on the paint show this – as do the Telecom industry's own studies on materials that attenuate the higher 5G transmissions.
During our discussion, you'll discover:
–The background behind the ancestral health movement and how it inspired Brian's work… 9:00
-The equipment Brian is using to examine my house… 11:00
- Gauss Meter Gigahertz Solutions NFA 30M.
- HF Digit Meter by Geovital
- Protect 1207-I
- NFEM Digit Meter Field Probe
-Why we should avoid exposure to both dirty and clean electricity… 18:30
-Inside my gym, mostly the sauna… 22:00
- Measuring radio frequencies. My body was being used as a radio antenna!!!
- Measuring electric fields being generated.
- Measuring the magnetic fields with a NFA 30M
- Lights are producing a lot of “flicker.” Incandescent bulbs don't have “flicker.”
- Looking for devices with Bluetooth capabilities and wifi (spy meter).
- Stetzerizer Micro Search meter is measuring “dirty electricity” in my office.
–The Bedroom… 1:01:00
- Electricity is very high on my bed.
- Measuring “geopathic stressors.” Radiation that's coming up from the earth. Often associated with “sacred places” around the world.
- We realize that the springs in my bed are magnetized.
- Mapping out the lines on the bed.
–Solar Panels… 1:23:45
–KionU Ready to take your health business to the next level? KionU is a world-class personalized coaching certification in mind, body, and spirit optimization. This unique, comprehensive program is full of cutting-edge, research-based solutions that incorporate both ancestral wisdom and modern science. Find out more!
–Swiss Mountain Retreat with Robyn Openshaw
-Relieve gas and bloating with Atrantil. Get a 15% discount with our special link!
-Call Health IQ Life Insurance and let them find the best rate for health conscious clients.
A few weeks after Brian inspected my home, we caught up on a Skype call to discuss his results and how I can do a better job of minimizing our exposure to electrical and magnetic currents in our home.
What were the biggest problems, and some of the easiest fixes we can do right now?…1:32:00
What were Brian's concerns with the mattress I use?… 1:39:00
Can I use the special faraday paint in my bedroom and eliminate the effects of the magnetic forces in my mattress?…1:45:00
What rooms in my house should I use the faraday paint to shield from electric currents, and what rooms should I not worry about?… 1:53:30
Brian discusses one possibly problematic area of my home with a parabolic microwave antenna to give us internet… 1:58:00
The dirty electricity filter Brian recommends… 2:07:00
Brian's advice for those who get overwhelmed with the information and disinformation related to building biology… 2:09:30
Resources from this episode:
-Brian Hoyer, NTP, Geovital Geobiologist, Shielded Healing LLC
–The non-spring, low EMF mattress Brian recommends
-The incandescent, low EMF bulbs that Brian recommends – ChromaLux 100 watt – 150-watt incandescent bulbs or Aerotech Incandescent 100-150 Watts
–The Satellite Daytime Mats which can be used for the office
–The Greenwave dirty electricity filters Ben uses
–Dr. Satchin Panda, expert in circadian biology
–T98A Paint by Geovital (used by Dr. Mercola to shield your home from electricity.)
A list of products recommended by Brian Hoyer:
Do you have questions, thoughts or feedback for Brian or me? Leave your comments below and one of us will reply!
34 thoughts on “The Intriguing Science Of Building Biology (Along With A Complete Analysis & Surprising Results From Ben Greenfield’s So-Called “Biohacked Home”)”
Can you please provide a link for the grounding mats mentioned to place under the mattress?
Any thoughts on the use of a Router Shield (from the Smart Meter Guard company) to protect from WiFi signals?
Great as always Ben! Don’t know if it’s possible, but would be awesome if you started filming your podcasts. I would have liked to watch the process of this one.
Curious so I’m considering moving back to my home near San Antonio Texas but I hear they are going 5G, and this scares me…any recomendations here?
A couple links for you:
FIND A 5G ACTION GROUP NEAR YOU! – https://www.5gcrisis.com/
My team and I travel all over the country and post our EMF Assessment tours on the Shielded Healing website. We do go to Texas quite often. Use the code BEN for $100 off your EMF assessment when you are ready to schedule.
5G is more than just millimeter waves, FYI, as many people think. It’s the saturation of all the current frequencies that is a larger problem. Good news is that we have been testing all the current shielding materials and have come up with the top tier solutions and ways to install to protect against these new saturations.
If you can find a place surrounded by hills or hills are between you and the most populated areas where the towers are that is a good start. You also will need to measure the magnetic fields to make sure you aren’t too close to power lines. If you can rule out a mega exposure to RF (like being within a quarter mile of a cell phone tower) and magnetic fields penetrating the home from power lines…if you do that then you get an assessment and we can help with the rest of what we typically find in homes.
Hope that helps for now.
Hi Brian – I am contemplating a NaturePedic mattress which doesn’t have all the retardants and chemicals but does have wrapped coils. I haven’t pulled the trigger yet. Any thoughts?
Thank you so much for sharing. Fascinating. I have an emf assessment scheduled in Spring 2019. It is January 2019 now, more 6 months after your assessment. I wonder if you have made the recommended changes and if so, have you noticed any big difference? Some of the stuff seems daunting and expensive, like the shielded paint…so hopefully it is worth it.
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Regarding the sauna, i have the clearlight also and while i’m happy to hear the magnetic fields are low, the electric field greater than 400 volts per meter is concerning. I measured and found the same thing myself and it’s coming from the heaters themselves. Is there any way to shield from these high electric fields generated by sauna heaters?
I have some ideas but I’d need to test them to see if they work. If you’d like me to help you with this I have done personalized consults for retrofitting shielding in existing saunas before. We can set that up if you contact me via my website.
During the podcast we talked a lot about practical solutions for the home but we didn’t touch much on portable solutions or get into the nitty gritty details on HOW EMF impacts the body. I’ve tested in Brooklyn, Manhattan, Staten Island, and many other places around New York City. It is extremely saturated so putting in protection and taking steps to reduce damage would both be important. There are 4 stressors to be concerned with: Wireless (RF), magnetic fields, electric fields, and geopathic stress.
The first step would be to try to avoid the damage to begin with. We know sleep is by far the most important place to be protected.
There ARE canopies made with shielded fabric that you can put around beds but nothing currently sold is made of fabric that shields the frequencies we are currently exposed to. 95% of the products sold online are the same products that were sold 10 or 15 years ago and they are only shielding at 1-3 GHz. As you can see with even Ben’s home out in the woods…we have exposures from towers at MUCH higher frequencies.
The best fabric out there right now is the NOVA fabric by Geovital and it shields way better than anything I’ve tested. You can order that fabric and if you are good at sewing or know a seamstress you can order it and make a canopy for your daughter and son. I explain the shielding effectiveness on the site in the description. Here’s the link: https://shieldedhealing.com/products/nova-shieldi…
A separate issue that can help is to instruct them not to have anything plugged in near the bed if possible. It’s nearly inevitable that they’ll have electric field body voltage unless they are lucky enough to have a dorm room, apartment, or condo with shielded conduit in it. If that’s the case then if they don’t have anything plugged in or have it plugged in on the opposite side of the room they should be okay on this front…if the conduit is not shielded then there currently isn’t much they can do in that situation. You’ll have to test body voltage to know if they have shielded conduit in their room. To test body voltage they could go to the hardware store and buy a multimeter on the ~V setting, ground the meter, hold the red side, and see where they are at. MAKE SURE THEY USE A GROUND TESTER PLUG TO TEST IF THE OUTLET IS GROUNDED PROPERLY FIRST. Currently there’s no real portable solution to take care of electric fields. I’m working on one though!
Something that helps for both electric fields and wireless is to have them sleep on a metal free mattress. I have these available on my website. They are especially good for portability because they are made of a nontoxic foam that is EMF neutral, anti-static, and they are VERY lightweight and easy to move: https://shieldedhealing.com/collections/all/mattr…
For geopathic stress an easy portable solution for Daytime areas is the Satellite Mat and that would universally help with any geopathic stressors from coming up and stressing the nervous system: https://shieldedhealing.com/products/satellite-da…
There’s a separate mat for under the bed but you can’t have any metal in the mattress, box springs, or bed frame. Plus you need an in person assessment to put the proper strength mat in place. A Satellite Daytime mat is better than nothing at all but still lets through some stimulation that you need during the day that you don’t need at night.
If the source of magnetic fields is coming from an alarm clock plugged in or a fan…have them put any fans or alarm clocks at least 4 feet away from their body when they sleep. If the clock is battery operated no issue. Even if the fan were battery operated it would still be an issue.
Nutritional and lifestyle hacks. Anything that supports the blood brain barrier will help! Ben has a great article on this including things like magnesium supplementation, ALA, antioxidants, and some other biohacks. Great stuff in this article!
Hope that helps!
Hi Brian!! Sorry for my delay in saying THANK YOU for taking the time to offer me such a detailed response!! It is much appreciated!! I will make my “to do” list accordingly.
By association, my kids have learned to be much more health aware than many of their peers…but it’s still difficult to crack the “invincible” feeling they have at this age! Perhaps seeing the words written here from an expert like you might make them more compliant ;-)
Hoping to catch you for 2 follow-up questions:
1. I hear you say it is important to avoid metal coils and bedframes. Awhile back, I had a building biologist come to my home. We used a meter to measure the body voltage (hope that’s the right term) on all of our beds. We all have metal bedframes with non-toxic metal-free mattresses…so he showed me how to ground the bed (with a plug-in wire and clamp from LessEMF), and move some plugs that were in the garage below. When we grounded the bed and re-measured the voltage, it was very low in to the safe levels. He mentioned that having the metal bed grounded like this might even be protective.
Is this not true? Or does it maybe help with one form of pollution, but augment another? I have listened to all of your information (and read as much as I can), but a lot of it is still over my head. Do we need to flee from our beds, or is the grounding keeping us “safe”?
2. Can you offer feedback on cell phone/computer “Neutralizing” devices like the xZubi ? I just heard Dr. Mercola speak on the Toxic Home Summit, and he says that while they might make a person “feel” better, they do not eliminate the dangerous effects such EMF has on our bodies. I would love SOMETHING to put on my kids’ phones to help them minimize damage, since I know I am beyond the days of forbidding them to use them. My son, and all of his friends, keep their phones in their front pockets. It pains me!! I tried having him put it in a LessEMF pouch, but that was lost in 3 days :-(
Again, thanks SO much!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hi again Jennifer,
To mitigate EVERYTHING in the bedroom you’d have healthy levels of RF, near ZERO electric fields (I like below 15 millivolts, below 30 v/m on EM Field Probe), and no geopathic stress. To achieve zero geopathic stress you can’t have any metal above the mats that are to be placed under the bed, including the bed frame.
The grounding of the bed is something that I do if I can when in hotels, AirBnbs, etc. It CAN help reduce electric fields but it also grounds the body somewhat because the grounded bed frame is contacting the mattress or box springs and grounding that as well which then grounds your body. So long as the electric field is mainly coming from the floor and not the walls or ceiling this can be a good thing. If you have a high electric field coming from the wall or ceiling then it goes through your body to the lowest voltage and would give a false low reading. I hope that makes sense!
The phone gadgets… I agree with Dr. Mercola. Best thing is to teach them that it IS DANGEROUS to keep it on their body. Have them keep their cellular data off and only use it when on WiFi (much less power and less pulsing). If you are still paying the cell phone bill you may be able to turn cellular data off directly with the cell phone company. With the data on the phone is pinging the tower 100 times or more a minute to update apps. You can still receive texts and calls with the data off.
I personally use a faraday pouch that my wife makes that shields your hand and your body from the phone while you use it. Geovital has a similar product as well but theirs doesn’t shield the hand.
I have an infrared sauna not marketed as “low emf”
Company says that more than 5 inches away from the heaters there’s as much emf as a hairdryer.
Anyways I hooked up an earthing pad in there.
Do you think this is helpful?
Thanks and Please keep the awesomeness coming!
In my experience “low emf” means the same as “natural” when it comes to food. There’s no set standard for “low emf” with saunas so they can technically say that even if they are the highest EMF sauna on the market that is below the legal standards EMF exposure. The US standards for magnetic fields is about 200,000 times greater than what a Shielded Healing standard would be. The comparison to a hairdryer is a good tactical move because people use hairdryers every day…but those things give off MASSIVE amounts of magnetic fields. Also, we have to remember in the sauna you are trying to get into a deeply relaxed state that stimulates the parasympathetic nervous system, which allows for detoxification pathways to function at full capacity.
With the earthing pad… it won’t help at all with the magnetic fields. If you have that high of magnetic fields I’d imagine you also have very high electric fields because your sauna is not shielded. If you have a high electric field body voltage without the earthing pad then when you place your feet on the pad and “ground yourself” the reading goes down…but that’s because you are using your body as a neutral wire for all the ambient electric fields to go to the ground. In this way it can actually attract more electric fields to your body and cause current to go through your body. Makes sense if you take it to an extreme… You see a high voltage power line and reach up to touch it while grounded, what happens?
Does anyone live in NYC?? I am worried…my daughter will be starting college there in the fall (heart of Manhattan!!), so cool, but SO much exposure!!! Her twin brother will be going to school in Las Vegas (not much better!!).
If you have any basic hacks that would help in a dorm room/ small apartment, that would be great!!
This was an exceptional podcast! Thank you! I have been reading research and literature regarding this topic and have taken many steps to mitigate exposure to EMF, excessive blue light, etc. as well as aligning with circadian rhythms. I had previously purchased an EMF meter and RF meter and made many changes in my home environment and, as much as I can, in my work environment; however, I learned a lot more in this Podcast. My frustration is that some of the mitigation strategies can be financially prohibitive to many (purchasing my meters was expensive) but there were still many strategies that are “low hanging fruit” – primarily distance and, if possible, avoidance. Please have more podcasts that address this issue as I often find myself “a fish swimming upstream” when I speak of this to others about this. The cellular industry, like the tobacco industry, has the money to make sure most people are kept in the dark about this. The cellular industry is the “new tobacco”. However, I will keep at it and one day my family and friends will look back and say, “darn…that tin foil hat gal was right after all”!
I agree, most of these solutions are financially prohibitive and without that changing (or somehow becoming a homeowner with a ton of disposable income), they remain completely inaccessible and I don’t hold out much hope of healing from my assorted health problems. This is all interesting information, but has little applicability to my life, and I’m sure many others’ lives, when just one of the recommended products would take a year or two of my life to obtain. No one in particular’s fault, of course, but reality.
A new iPhone costs as much as it does to permanently shield a room from 3 types of EMF stressors. A shielded room is a therapy you get for 8 hours every single night. Compliance is 100% as long as you sleep in that room for this therapy. You do it and then you don’t have to even think about it, schedule it, or feel like you need to make time for this health hack in your schedule.
Since this podcast I’ve found solutions that are less expensive and work even better!
Hello! great and fascinating podcast so much great information. my question is that I have a fitness tracker (fitbit) and usually i turn it off from the bluetooth and only updates few times a day. do I still get any radiation from the fitbit itself that way? I also sleep with it but my phone is in airplane mode, but I am very worried now! Thank you, Skirmante from Chicago!
My advice: Sell the Fitbit or throw it in the garbage and swap it out for the Oura ring.
The Oura ring uses infrared sensors to detect all that a FitBit does and more. It doesn’t need WiFi or Bluetooth to operate while it is on your body. It collects information and then you can enable the Bluetooth to download the info. I know Dr. Mercola and Ben use this. I will be using one myself and am starting to test shielded versus non-shielded rooms with the Oura ring.
I’ve had clients who felt so much better when they threw their fitness trackers away (Fitbits, Apple watches, etc.) It’s a constant stress on the body and it is very close to the body. Not worth the risk. They haven’t tested this long term.
Here’s an article about the Oura ring from Ben: https://bengreenfieldfitness.com/article/self-quantification-articles/the-new-oura-ring/
Is there a good way to shield just yourself while you sleep to see what changes would occur while you get to painting and cleaning up the bedroom? Would making a sleeping bag out of the grounding fabric be sufficient?
I think Dr. Mercola is in the process of having one of these made for himself. He and Ben had a few great podcasts together (and may have mentioned it then??) Maybe try a search for those podcasts to get some info if no one else answers you here)
Dr. Mercola showed his prototype to me at a conference a few months back. He is working on one. I’ll definitely test it again when it comes out. We know it does great blocking the RF when we tested it at the hotel.
You don’t want your body to be in contact with the grounding fabric or the fabric that is shielding you from the RF (wireless).
As far as testing the changes… It’s hard to know exactly what you need without an assessment. Ben’s home EMF assessment was different from the other 150 I did last year. You may have 1-2 breakers or 10-20 that need to be turned off. Turning them off can be a good temporary solution but 60% of the time turning off all the breakers doesn’t get the level down to what I like to see.
I really enjoy getting all the solutions done at once to notice a drastic change. If that’s not possible then following step by step solutions to reduce in every area is great…but not a good measure of looking at changes because they can be so gradual.
I think make small changes is practically good (like turning off WiFi at night), but if you are trying to track changes or convince yourself if this is really impacting you then it’s not really a good way to do it. I’ve had skeptics who start turning off WiFi every night and notice nothing…it’s because it’s less than 1% of their exposure in their home situation. Then they stop doing it and say that it “doesn’t make a difference”. That’s like telling someone with Celiac to cut down on their salad croutons by 1 crouton but still eat pasta, bread, and scones at various times throughout the day and see if they notice a difference from cutting out the 1 crouton. Simply not going to notice a thing! :)
If you eliminate even 1 of the 4 stressors I think that’s the basic way to tell if one stressor is impacting you more than another. Test it by completely eliminating one at a time…even if it is gradual that’s okay but the goal should be to remove the stressor to what we know is an effective level.
Hope that helps!
Hi Ben. Are you chewing Nicotine gum in the first part of this podcast?
Probably that or mastic gum: https://amzn.to/2JQlPC7
Awesome show and I am enjoying your other podcasts as well. I would like to know if you have heard about or tried a vibershield. I’m not plugging the company, I want you to test it to see if it works. I always wanted to test it but I don’t have the resources. Will you help a brother out? Thank you
Haven't tried that one yet!
Oh my goodness, this is a good one!!!! I feel completely overwhelmed and bummed that I have metal wrapped bedroom furniture that I love! I also have an Intellibed mattress and won’t be getting rid of it either. I also have a megnetico sleep pad per Jack Kruse’s info. Now I am confused if the magnetico is beneficial or harmful since the bed has metal on it? I am in the midst of building a new home and thinking I need to paint the new bedroom with the paint mentioned. I already have greenwave filters, but feel like that and the paint may not be enough!!! Thank you for this important info!
I get the question on the Magnetico a LOT!
Here’s my take on it… The Magnetico is a therapy that is meant to change the body biophysically back in the direction that it should be. We are biophysically changing all the time from the EMF exposure and geopathic stress during the day AND at night.
The issue with the Magnetico is the metal, not necessarily the magnets. When you are in a shielded space with geopathic stress solutions put in place you may not need a Magnetico type of therapy any longer. Like PEMF, it’s a balance of the therapy that makes it therapeutic. You can have too little or too much of any therapy. Shielding a room and removing geopathic and nonnative EMF stressors is different…it’s creating as close to an ancestral environment as possible and is therapeutic but is the baseline we should all be working from.
Definitely use the Magnetico…especially after traveling. For the long term though, you’d be better served, in my opinion, by shielding yourself from these stressors and not sleeping on metal (our ancestors never slept on metal and I think there are likely other biophysical health effects we don’t know about from doing this). That said, there IS a way to block the geopathic stress with the mats in a certain formation so you don’t have to change your bed.
If you are interested in a Home build assessment to get full customized recommendations on your home including discounts on all the shielding products let me know. I’m currently doing about 4 home build consults right now. Sign up on my consult page: https://shieldedhealing.com/pages/consults?aff=2
Mention Ben’s podcast and I’ll give you a discount too!
Brian mentioned a “case,” I think that we can use to cover or encase a box springs mattress in–the mattress has springs (maybe magnetic)–he mentioned a case of some kind–I thought he said, “faraday case?”–but I’m not sure what he said and I don’t see it in any of what you have written out.
what is the name of that case for the mattress springs?
Thank you–excellent podcast–now I need to find someone to do my home–any suggestions where I”d find such a person–I’m in Kansas City, MO.
Thank you! pam
Ben’s referring to wrapping the mattress in EMF shielding fabric. It would be a matter of buying sufficient EMF shielding fabric and making a cover that fully wraps the mattress. Some examples of fabric here:
I live in NZ and got some from an Australian company and use it as a sleeping bag of sorts when I’m travelling to shield from the nasty EMF exposures typically found in hotels.
Hi Pam, I reached out to Brian, here's his response:
The case idea we mentioned in the podcast wouldn't block the magnetic fields…it would simply block the springs from receiving a signal…but then because the shielding case itself contains metal in the fabric it would be an antenna if you were in contact with it. What we are really concerned about is the body. I think Ben was trying to save his mattress so that idea came up and I agreed that if the mattress too was protected then it wouldn't be a problem. That's essentially what we're doing with shielding paint or a sleeping canopy made out of the NOVA fabric.
The NOVA shielding fabric would block the radio frequencies but wouldn't take care of the electric fields. The alternative option for a more portable solution we didn't cover in the podcast is using a canopy made from the NOVA and installing a kill switch for certain breakers that are affecting your body's voltage as you sleep.
I'll be in Kansas City, MO sometime in the next few months. I consult with SaunaSpace in Columbia, MO 3-4 times a year and I've done many consults in KC and St. Louis as a result of being there. I have a few homes in KC I'll be going back to retest after some shielding has been applied. I've got a project in St. Louis beginning soon as well.